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Question about vitimins for bones

Ford Girl
December 13th, 2007, 12:01 PM
Hi everyone, I have been diagnosed with degenerative bone deterioration in my left hip/leg/knee/pelvic area, it's excellerated wear and tear basically, nothing medical I can do about it. I have been doing tones of research, just wondering if anyone else takes suppliments for their bones or a simular disease or osteoporosis? Besides suppliments I need to lose weight. Do you think there anything else I can do? I don't have another doc appt. for a few months, but I wanted to start getting healthy now.

Cheers!

luckypenny
December 13th, 2007, 12:23 PM
Not sure if I can compare but I have osteoarthritis of the spine with mild scoliosis. Also arthritis of the hands & heels and Tietze's Syndrome.

I am unable to take anti-inflamatories (prone to duodenal ulcers). It became so painful 2 1/2 years ago that I was put on codeine and then upgraded to morphine patches (which I had a severe allergic reaction to) :o . I was prescribed another medication (can't think of the name of it right now) that involved suppression of the central nervous system and allowed me to at least sleep through some of the pain. Little did I know, nor did my physician forewarn me:mad:, that I would become addicted to them :o . Needless to say, I no longer take any prescribed medication for my conditions.

About 3 months ago, I decided to try glucosamine, chondroitin, and MSM supplements. It's been about 2 weeks since I've been able to sleep without waking from the pain each time I moved. I no longer awake stiff, can manage to get out of bed without spending 30 minutes with a heating pad and stretching and having Hubby massage my back and heels ( I kind of miss that part though :D ).

I'm not saying it's a miracle, I do still have episodes of pain and stiffness but they are becoming fewer and less intense.

I would also suggest consulting with a physio-therapist who can set up an exercise regime with you to help build the muscles around the areas that you need support with.

Ford Girl
December 14th, 2007, 02:26 PM
Thanks LP, that makes sense. On a real personal note, we are trying to concieve so I am unable to take ANY meds except Tylenol, so that's why diet and exercise is my main focus right now, I am not allowed to take anti-inflamatories. I can say I am or rather was semi-addicted to Liquid Advil, they work wonders for pain, but no more for me... :sad:

It's hit or miss shots of pain in my left side, when it strikes it almost collapses me. I will look in to the suppliments you mentioned, and ensure they are safe for me to take. I am trying to stay away from pain killers in general, I just think I am too young to become dependent on them, I turn 30 on the 30th of this month. The heating pads do work, I have one of those majic bags you heat in the microwave, works wonders.

I also found research that shows the type of birth control I was on for years affects bone density and calcium level - gee, you'd think the doc I saw for both my female issues and hip pain would have made the conncetion, I actually brought a Women's Day magazine in with an article about the relationship. He still ignored it. :shrug:

I use to joke that I needed a new hip back when I was 20 and low and behold I just might! ha! :laughing:

Kristin7
December 14th, 2007, 04:23 PM
Arrrgh! I also have issues w/ my doc and birth control. They push hormonal forms of it so much and fail to acknowledge the many side effects. I have given up on using them because of negative side effects and of course, the doc has nothing else to offer. :frustrated: sorry about that...

I don't have a degenerative bone disease so don't know much re: this, but do know calcium and vitamin D are good for your bones. If you don't drink milk, there are now fruit juices that are supplemented with these, such as orange juice. The acid in the juice also helps your body absorb the calcium. Another thing you could do is weight bearing exercises, such as lifting weights. This will not only help out your bones but also help you lose weight, or at least tone up, if that is what you want.

kiara
December 29th, 2007, 06:59 PM
It is dangerous to self-medicate, we are not doctors. Since your doctor did not tell you to take anything, I would wait until your next appointment. Reading all kinds of articles not written by doctors can lead to a wrong direction. The best thing to do is go to your local library and check out their medical books. You will get a lot of information about this disease. When you see your doctor next time, remember to ask questions.

14+kitties
December 29th, 2007, 07:19 PM
About 3 months ago, I decided to try glucosamine, chondroitin, and MSM supplements. It's been about 2 weeks since I've been able to sleep without waking from the pain each time I moved. I no longer awake stiff, can manage to get out of bed without spending 30 minutes with a heating pad and stretching and having Hubby massage my back and heels ( I kind of miss that part though :D ).
I'm not saying it's a miracle, I do still have episodes of pain and stiffness but they are becoming fewer and less intense.

My hubby has severe issues with his knees. His doctor told him to take glucosamine and MSM as did his chiropractor. They are bone support supplements. About the same as taking vitamins. I myself have arthritis in my hands and knees. I take calcium and Vitamin D (can't have one without the other my doc says) D helps to break down the calcium to make it useable for the body. I also take the MSM/glucosamine tablets.
I agree that it is dangerous to self medicate but it's pretty difficult to overdose on this stuff. I don't think it would hurt to start on taking the tablets now. If you are concerned about it call the doctors office and ask his nurse. She should be able to talk to you about it or at least pass the question on to the doctor so he can call you.

Frenchy
December 29th, 2007, 09:23 PM
It is dangerous to self-medicate, we are not doctors.

Give me a break , they're talking about vitamins and supplements here. :rolleyes:

CyberKitten
December 29th, 2007, 09:52 PM
It is dangerous to self-medicate, we are not doctors.

Speak for yourself, haha

I am not an orthopedic surgeon but I do have scoliosis and it was anything but mild and I suffer from degenerate spinal problems. I am not convinced enough about some of the new meds - I read too much research from the NIH , esp a re raloxafine er al - that category of meds.

That said, I do not feel I can advise you what to do,. It would be unethical. I do not know your case history, I have kyphoscoliosis and have gone through the whole but - mega surgery - spinal fusion, halo femoral traction, learned to walk again , a lung, you name it- I am a member of the Scoliosis Research Society (made up primarily of docs and I am one of the few pediatricians who is not an orthopod but I am a PhD also in biochem who has done research in some of this -mostly re medications, I see a pain specialist since my pain is intractable and surgery would really not be helpful.

My deterioration is in my lumbar spine area -prob due to the fusion of my cervical and thoracic vertebrae. In my case, this was a congenital condition caused by another condition so it was highly complicated and a spinal fusion for me was a piece of cake compared to all the other procedures. (except that it was done when I was a teenager in the bad old days when we had to spend mega time in a body cast, lol).

I assume LP when you say mild scoliosis you mean that your curve is less than 40 degrees (acc to the Cobb Measurement system)? Or do you mean you have only have had to have one spinal fusion and it was an uncomplicated case with no complications like arthrocentesis?

I take calcium supplements. My surgeon (new one since my doctor- wonderful man, one of THE best re scoliosis) in Boston retired, sigh - has suggested a bone scan but I am one of those who has had so many xrays as a child and I have a pretty good idea looking at some of the ultrasounds I have taken of myself with a 3D machine that my bone situation is pretty good. I always gobbled down milk like it was going out of style and that has helped me amazingly well. If I did not drink copious amts of milk, I;d take calcium and vitamin D supplements and sometimes I do anyway but the actual fiood is always better.


The jury is out on some of these new meds and if a patient really reallt reqired it (ie seriuiosly low bone mass due to bone cancer which I do treat), I would provide them with a script for these meds but I am currently working on a study now with a friend ayt Harvard that us beginning to show lt results I do not like. With raloxifene on post menopausal women- who are at greatest risk since they ni longer produce estrogen, in 3.3 yrs we have encountered patients with Outcomes included venous thromboembolism, cataracts, gallbladder disease, and endometrial hyperplasia and cancer. So, knowing that - there is no way I will put that med or any ot its several clones in my body. I see children and teenagers and infants suffer and sometimes sadly die of cancer every day of my life so no, I have had cancer twice and I am sure it has much to do with the many xrays I had due to the monitoring of my kyphoscoliosis that I feel I need not add any more triggers.

Have you considered physiotherapy? That actually is proven in many studies to work very well - if you are capable of walking well, you might try using experimental ways with a good physiotherapist. I'd also consult a pain clinic- they oculd probably give you good advice. It's hard for me to recommend any meds when I do not know what you are on now, your medical history and to so would not be wise on my part.

I do wish you well I have intractable horrible pain and so I know what that is like but have taught myself many techniques of getting through the day and have numerous techniques. I take meds at night if needed but like LP I had to have a partial gastrectomy due to huge duodenal ulcer so cannot take NSAIDs which work much better than acetaminophen which is not really good at all for bone pain so like her, I am limited to opiate like meds or others (Glucausamsine does not work) which I can't take during the day due to my work which requires intense concentration. my situation is jut so bad - my pain doc called it "the worst back she has seen in her 15 yrs of practice when she attempted a radiofrequency denevation" I survive it by working and keeping busy. I perform surgery often sitting down tho if I stand up, I am cautious. Ypu might look into that - it essentially deadens the nerve endings - sort of like a "nerve block" if you have heard of them. Gosh, I hope this is not too much info! :frustrated:
btw, glucausamine (sp?) is not without its problems and more than 15 mg a day is useless. That is an entirely different story. I would talk yo your orthopedic doc and pain clinic clinic and GP and work from there. Do not self medicate- that is the worst you can do. Even I would no do that and I have spent a decade plus conducting research on pain medication! Herbals must be also considered whrn taking other meds- how they interact and so forth. I do have a cousin who just had elbow and knee surgery and I have referred him to an orthpod in Montreal (where he lives) and a good physiotherapy clinic and he is already beginning to see results. His bone mass is good so far but then again, he does not have to worry about b=one mass in the same way women have to.

Good luck!!!!

Frenchy
December 29th, 2007, 10:04 PM
Do not self medicate- that is the worst you can do.

So you're saying we have to consult a doctor before taking glucosamine or vitamin C ? :rolleyes: I don't believe these need a prescription :D

CyberKitten
December 29th, 2007, 10:41 PM
No, I meant if you are unsure of what to take or have a situation like Ford Girl mentioned - it's best to talk to someone who can help. But I did not see the part about vitamins, lol MOST vitamins are safe but even then, you need to be careful in terms of other meds you might be taking. for some one healthy taking no other scripts , and who is well aware of their body, they hardly need a medical professional, lol

I guess I am thinking just because something is sold on a held at a pharmacy or a health food store does not make it safe and most of these are so unregulated that you do not know the quality of the vitamins you are getting For the record, there is one well known brand has been proven to have very little if what is supposedly in them I have taken that brand myself and I might as well been downing gelatin and sugar and a few other ingredients, some of which can be carcinogens, sigh! (That is a whole other story and I need to get to bed- am sooooo tired!) I almost wrote the name of the brand and then thought UhOh,m that;s a nono- I don't want to be sued. I do tell all my patients nts tho as do others in our hospital when quizzed about vitamins.

I only really take cit C tho - and ech (sp???) if I am coming down with a cold. There is no evidence it works but it has not bee proven to be bad for you if taken in certain amts tho zinc is good only under 6 mg. More than 15 mg and you actually hinder your immune system.

I sometimes take vit B6 because a little known fact I discovered by accident myself - and then read it later in a nursing journal in a footnote (why ppl want to hide this I do not know) is that if you are taking meds that give you a dry mouth ,Vit B6 will counteract that. I just had to rewrite that after using caps - NOT my day - am off to bed, lol



Anyway- I HAVE to get to bed.

Are you trying to get me in trouble Frenchy, lol :D

Frenchy
December 30th, 2007, 09:40 AM
Are you trying to get me in trouble Frenchy, lol :D

:sorry: you did answer my question :thumbs up it seem some people freak every time we mention taking , or giving our pets , over the counter treatments / vitamins and mistake them for meds. I just wanted to clarify.

SARAH
December 30th, 2007, 09:52 AM
Osteoporosis can be stopped and even reversed with ... weight training! You read that right, weights! Your best bet is actually to join a gym and start on a light-ish but regular training program. If you are lucky, the gym will have a competent trainer to guide you, if not you can PM me and I'll set up a program for you.

Arthritis ... actually, yes a little weight training again, but I was thinking more in the line of KRILL OIL !! Better than fish oil, krill oil studies have shown it to be superior when it comes to arthritis. Any good helathfood store should have some. (Krill, for those who are not familiar with this animal, are tiny, really tiny shrimp-like creatures that the blue whale eats by the mouthful. They live in the cold Arctic waters, which is most likely why the krill oil is so rich and nourishing and healthy. Also, being at the base of the food chain, there is not the accumulation of toxins you end up with in larger fish).

There is another thing that I know works. It's sort of promotion here, but nothing to do with me or my profession, just something I did sell at one time but gave up because it seems most people prefer getting realy sick and worn down and go to a doctor, than do a little prevention. Anyway, if you google nikken, or go to www.nikken.com they have some really terrific magnetic products, and special bandages, socks, gloves, etc with infra-red technology imbedded in them ...

I never did really figure out how it works, but the fact is that this technology (infra red and magnets) work WITH your body to help it restore itself! I've used a lot of the products, still do because I have my demo-packs still - except the water system that I left in Norway, electric supply problems (220/110 ...).

But start by doing some weights and taking krill oil ... I'd be surprised if you didn't notice a difference within a few weeks.

CyberKitten
December 30th, 2007, 04:22 PM
You are right about that Sarah but those studies all included healthy women - not like me who are like the bionic woman. I cannot lift large items and many people whop need help with bone issues are in the same situation. So, it's great advice for those who have healthy spines or other bones and in my case, it was congenital so no weight training for me (at the risk of sounding like th soup Nazi, one for you, :crazy: There are a number of women out there who can hurt themselves badly doing weight training. Unless you know the medical history of the person - it;s best not to recommend weight training - and to do it, it takes knowledge about how to do it properly so you do not injure yourself.

I DO think every woman should exercise to the best of her ability - like walking. Or bicycling of possible. It all helps. I had pins through my knees as part of preparation ofr one of my many spinal surgeries ad so I have what one might call "bad" knees - but I do walk and bike - tho I cannot bike for long periods. I cannot stand for liomg periods either and my downfall is meeting someone in a mall who wants to chat. My pain med doc tells me I just have to tell them , come and sit down or say you cannot stand. If I stand for longer than 15 mins, I am in agony for the rest of the day. I guess I am always frustrated and should not be to find myself explaining to people who think everyone can do weight training and all that good stuff that some of us get through the day but while weight training is good in certain amts for the well trained- and even then, I have seen women develop probs as a result of either too much of it of inappropriate training.

Sometimes I think even surgery (when I am doing it) is exercise because one has to move around a lot even though say I am doing a bone marrow transplant, I sit down to do it. However, doing CPR is definitely a workout - tho one hopes not to have to do that!!

Anyway- I know you mean well - but women with delicate bone structures need to be cautious and start with walking before they get into weight training. I often wonder if one of the reasons we did not talk so much about osteoporosis in the past was because women were so much more active- more housework, ire more labour intensive and so forth. It was not necly a good thing (I am not fond of housework, lol) and was usually the preserve of women (ugh!) but they were definitely in good shape. My grandmother - a nurse- said she grew up in Ireland carrying pails of water to her home. And then even tho both she and my grandfather had other jobs, they farmed
in Canada and that was also tough work. She certainly NEVER worried about osteoporosis!

So I think moderate exercise is probably the best for the majority of women. And while I am sure you could set up a program for me Sarah - like medicine, it is something best done in person. Think of the liabilities if something happened on a program you developed online. You would have to know the medical history of the person and a plethora of other info. Unless it is done by videoconferencing and using the tools we have here - the ability to monitor someone's heart rate for example. I guess I always think of that when responding to a question about a health issue- I am a Harvard educated board certified pediatrician and hematologist but I cannot ethically provide someone with an explicit response because it would not be ethical. I can give them general information and advice but I have no way of knowing their case and past medical history and I might suggest some medication or action that would be not at all indicated in their situation. And I can share my own medical issues but that's it.

I know you want to help - and there are times I want to say to someone but I have no way of knowing their past history. I an only give generalized responses lest problems occur. I guess I have been in practice so long that I am more cautious than I would have been in my 20's or 30's, lol

SARAH
December 30th, 2007, 04:47 PM
Totally agree with you, and I would never suggest any program based on just your initial post.

It is true too, that you would be better off working with a physical therapist!

Ford Girl
December 31st, 2007, 01:22 PM
Hi everyone!! Just and update.

Frenchy - thanks, I was just wondering about vitamins and suppliments, not perscription drugs, don't worry people I won't write myself a perscription, seeing I am not a doctor, I couldn't anyways. :laughing:

I did talk to my doctor and all he said was to lose weight and take vitimins. he also told me no chiropractor, massage, accupuncture or physio will help me fix the issue, so I don't have any up coming appointments with any professionals about this topic. I also talked to a pharmasist who was very helpful.

I have so many upcoming appt. with specilists in regards to other matters, so I can't take more time right now, so this is what I am doing...

Right now I am taking a prenatal daily vitamin, 1 calcuim with Vit D tablet per day, and 1 extra cup of Silk milk per day, on top of the Silk and milk and dairy I normally get. And Tylenol for the pain. I bought a treadmill and exercise ball to start, and a small weight set, and I increased my 5klm walk to 4 times a week instead of 3.

Thanks for all the suggestions and info, I appreciate it!!