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TO Ocean Blue - NEW INGREDIENTS

Goldens4Ever
December 8th, 2007, 10:34 AM
Another member of this forum brought this to my attention, so I checked it out on & the rumors are true. They have changed the Ocean Blue formula & some of the others as well. This explains why Goldie has been itchy since the new bags of food arrived & why her paws are bothering her. TO states that they needed to change the wording of a few things, such as "Potato" to "Dried Potato Product" & "Low Ash White Fish Meal" to "White Fish Meal." But, that is not my biggest concern - they completely changed the whole formula! :yell::mad::yell::mad:

OLD FORMULA:

Low Ash White Fish Meal, Salmon, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils, Kelp, Hydrated Alfalfa Leaf Leaf, Potassium Chloride, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Blueberries, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Taurine, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Copper Proteinate, Selenium Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.

NEW FORMULA:

White Fish Meal, Salmon, Dried Potato Product, Chicken Fat, Salmon Oil, Natural Flavors, Dried Apples, Dried Blueberries, Dried Cranberries, Dried Figs, Ground Thyme, Ground Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon, Ground Fenugreek, Dried Garlic, Ground Sunflower Seeds, Ground Sesame Seeds, Dried Kelp, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Whey Product, Casein, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Beets, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Lecithin, Taurine, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium longum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Choline Chloride, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Cobalt Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Citric Acid, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Rosemary Extract.

Tommysmom
December 8th, 2007, 10:53 AM
Great... another food Tommy won't be having anymore! We haven't used TO since we switched to Orijen, but he did eat it before and he loved it. He's allergic to chicken fat though, so that one goes out the window.

I was reading on another forum about this today, and they kept saying it won't matter because dogs can't be allergic to fats due to the way they are processed - NOT TRUE. Tommy is allergic to chicken, chicken fat and eggs. Heaven knows with all his digestive upsets he doesn't need all that other junk they threw in either.

Thanks for letting us all know before we found out the hard way! Once again this board just rocks:thumbs up.

rainbow
December 8th, 2007, 01:43 PM
They have definitely cheapened their formula. :sad: I don't know how they can justify putting their price up so often. When TO was first available here it was $58 for the large bag. I was just at the pet store last week buying Orijen and noticed TO is now $75 for the same bag. :eek: And, I paid $51 for the large bag of Orijen which is a better product imo. ;)

geisha
December 8th, 2007, 11:00 PM
Thank you all for posting the new ingredients. I was giving Rose (my senior samoyed) 1/4 cup with her California Natural Herring & Sweet Potato or Go! Salmon and was wondering why is she scratching, because she is allergic to chicken. Well now I know and now I've discovered that she is also allergic to chicken fat. This is frustrating :wall:.

TeriM
December 9th, 2007, 02:59 AM
They have definitely cheapened their formula. :sad: I don't know how they can justify putting their price up so often. When TO was first available here it was $58 for the large bag. I was just at the pet store last week buying Orijen and noticed TO is now $75 for the same bag. :eek: And, I paid $51 for the large bag of Orijen which is a better product imo. ;)

I know, I noticed a huge jump in the prices too :eek:. I also used to feed this regularly before Orijen but would be unable to now because of the brewers yeast. I don't understand why they would add chicken fat when they claim to be the best source for dogs with allergies :shrug:.

Rainbow, your Orijen was only $51 :eek:, mine was $61 and the six fish is now almost $70 :frustrated:. Luckily the regular Orijen seems to be working ok. We were pretty sure that Riley had chicken sensitivities but he seems to be just fine with the Orijen :shrug:.

rainbow
December 9th, 2007, 03:05 AM
:offtopic:
The Orijen we get here comes from the Alberta distributor so maybe that's why. :shrug: I glanced at the 6 Fish and it was $58 or $59. Glad that Riley can handle the chicken formula. :thumbs up


Back to TO Ocean Blue.....

mafiaprincess
December 11th, 2007, 02:37 AM
It's more than that.. TWO's current statement is due to some oversight some of the 'new' ingredients were in the bags all along. So for up to two years, you were possibly feeding the 'new' formula and just didn't know it. Only now.. they upped the price along with it.

It's not just one formula, it's many of them. Makes sense now why some dogs did so badly on food that seemed perfect for them. Some had allergens to them in the bags and not on the labels.

Examples:

**"New" Wild and Natural:
Chicken Meal, Chicken, Chicken Fat, Dried Potato Product, Salmon Meal, Natural Flavors, Salmon Oil, Dried Egg Product, Dried Kelp, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Beets, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach, Dried Tomato Pomace, DL-Methionine, Dried Whey Product, Casein, etc

**"Old" Wild and Natural:
Chicken Meal, Fresh Chicken, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract), Low Ash Salmon Meal, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract) Eggs, Dried Chicken Liver, Dried Whole Milk, Dried Whey Extract, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, etc
---------------------------

**"New" Ocean Blue:
White Fish Meal, Salmon, Dried Potato Product, Chicken Fat, Salmon Oil, Natural Flavors, Dried Apples, Dried Blueberries, Dried Cranberries, Dried Figs, Ground Thyme, Ground Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon, Ground Fenugreek, Dried Garlic, Ground Sunflower Seeds, Ground Sesame Seeds, Dried Kelp, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Whey Product, Casein, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Beets, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach,etc

**"Old" Ocean Blue:
Low Ash White Fish Meal, Salmon, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Potassium Chloride, Amaranth, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Blueberries, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Taurine, Spirulina, etc
---------------------------

**"New" Dakota Bison
Bison, Salmon Meal, Ground Millet, Ground Brown Rice, Oat Groats, Chicken Fat, Sweet Potatoes, Salmon Oil, Dried Apples, Dried Cranberries, Dried Figs, Ground Thyme, Ground Anise Seed, Natural Flavors, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Beets, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach, Dried Egg Product, L-Lysine, Tomato Pomace, Dried Whey Extract, Dried Casein, etc

**"Old" Dakota Bison
Fresh Bison Meat, Salmon Meal, Millet, Sweet Potatoes, Oats, Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa, Potassium Chloride, Amaranth, Currants, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chicory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, etc

breeze
December 11th, 2007, 07:47 AM
I found out recently that the wild elk and salmon also changed their "forumal"

I also found out that the company can take up to 6 months to change the label on the bag...:frustrated:

Kristin7
December 11th, 2007, 11:26 AM
:frustrated: Makes me mad because their food is so expensive and I was feeding my dog the ocean blue formula to supplement another brand. This explains my dog's scratching while I was supplementing his food! I have been thinking for awhile that he is allergic to chicken and never would have bought that formula had I known. Thanks for the info!

meb999
December 11th, 2007, 12:56 PM
idiots. Why mess with a good thing? I had been wanting to try the TO Ocean Blue because Buster is allergic to chicken and lamb, imagine if I had? Then I woulda been so confuzzled about what he can eat and not eat.
Glad we are feeding ORIJEN.

mafiaprincess
December 11th, 2007, 03:50 PM
Actually, there is no 6 month grace period. It's a lie. Ask them to cite and quote this 6 month grace period from AAFCO literature, they can't. It doesn't exist. But it's a lame excuse solid gold used too.

The level of skeaziness.. They've really screwed up large on many levels now.

ETA: And even if they did have 6 months to 'use up bags' which they don't. The ingredients haven't matched the bags for a possible 2 years.. The wow factor I have over that isn't able to be put into words..

Goldens4Ever
December 11th, 2007, 09:49 PM
I am just disgusted about this.

I looked at the ingredients on the bag of Ocean Blue I have & it's even different from the two posted on here!!!! So, now there's 3 different formulas floating around, or just labeling errors.......? Who knows.

They are making enough $$$, so I don't know why they have to cheapen the formulas. What jerks. :mad:

rainbow
December 11th, 2007, 11:25 PM
I am soooo glad I stopped using TO a long time ago.

breeze
December 12th, 2007, 08:39 AM
so what do we do if the dog or doggies are doing well on the timberwolf.. Do we change it or do we stay with it??
Is it still classifed as a good quality food??
Is there something else we can switch to?? or are they all changing their forumals??

I know Bree does not do well with the ocean.. She is on the elk and salmon, I don't like the price for a lesser quality.....

this is soooo confusing, and if I get an other puppy what would I switch to that is not so expensive, but good quality, can't feed oriegen....

Tigergenesis
December 12th, 2007, 08:45 AM
I've been trying to figure out how this food compares the the 'new TO' : http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/products/dogs/pacific_stream_canine_formula/

It's about the only other option I can find (no grains, chicken or beef). Any thoughts?

meb999
December 12th, 2007, 11:04 AM
I've been trying to figure out how this food compares the the 'new TO' : http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/products/dogs/pacific_stream_canine_formula/

It's about the only other option I can find (no grains, chicken or beef). Any thoughts?

We can't do grains, chicken or Lamb. This has been a Godsend :

ORIJEN 6 FRESH FISH with SEA VEGETABLES
is a Biologically Appropriate Real-food Kibble (BARK) diet and is formulated with a biologically correct (70/30/0) ingredient ratio of 70% fish, 30% fruit and vegetables and 0% grain. All ingredients are slow-cooked at low temperature (90c) to retain their natural goodness and flavor.
With 8 sources of human-grade fish ingredients harvested from Canada's clean northern lakes and pacific seas, ORIJEN 6 FISH is nutritionally diverse and biologically complete with amino and fatty acids balanced to optimally nourish your dog.
Made without grain, and with very little carbohydrate, ORIJEN 6 FISH is easily metabolized by all dogs.


FRESH REGIONAL INGREDIENTS
Fresh salmon (includes chinook. coho and sockeye species), salmon meal, russet potato, herring meal, fresh lake whitefish, sweet potato, fresh lake trout, fresh Northern walleye, freshwater cod, fresh herring, sunflower oil, salmon oil (preserved with mixed tocopherals, a natural source of vitamin E), sun-cured alfalfa, dried sea vegetables (brown kelp, Irish moss, dulse and bladder wrack), leeks, psyllium, crab shell, rosemary, lecithin, apples, black currants..

TONIC HERBS AND BOTANICALS

Chicory root (FOS), licorice root, fennel seed, zea mays, peppermint leaf, marigold flowers, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, rosehips.

ORGANIC MINERALS

Iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate.

PROBIOTIC MICROORGANISMS

Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Enterococcus faecium fermentation product..

PREMIUM VITAMINS

Mixed tocopherols (source of vitamin E), choline chloride, vitamin A, vitamin D3, niacin, riboflavin, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin B12, folic acid, biotin, pyridoxine (source of vitamin B6).

Tigergenesis
December 12th, 2007, 11:17 AM
Thank you Meb999. I've heard/read nothing but good things about Orijen. I wish it were more available in the states. To have a 29lb bag shipped to me looks like it would cost at least twice as much as what I was paying for a 33lb bag of TO. Anyone in the states know any online stores that sell Orijen for the lowest price?

TeriM
December 12th, 2007, 12:31 PM
so what do we do if the dog or doggies are doing well on the timberwolf.. Do we change it or do we stay with it??
Is it still classifed as a good quality food??
Is there something else we can switch to?? or are they all changing their forumals??

I know Bree does not do well with the ocean.. She is on the elk and salmon, I don't like the price for a lesser quality.....

this is soooo confusing, and if I get an other puppy what would I switch to that is not so expensive, but good quality, can't feed oriegen....

Breeze, I think it is still a good quality food although is now extremely pricey. If it works for Bree then I wouldn't change. Does she have any specific allergies that might be affected, I think maybe she has chicken issues but I can't remember? If you were thinking of switching her I would consider Go Natural Salmon & Oatmeal as it has quite a high calorie content. Other choices could be California Natural as they have quite simple formulas that work well and Solid Gold Wolf King is actually quite similar to TO formula.

TeriM
December 12th, 2007, 12:33 PM
This was posted on the dog food project website from TO :frustrated:.

I am cross posting this to a few forums. If you do see a forum that I did not get to please direct them here or please let me know so I can address this.

Due to some concerns of a possible formula 'change' in Timberwolf Organics we'd like to set the record straight. The ingredient list on our website has always reflected the food in our bags. Some online retailers that carry our food do not necessarily update their listing to reflect what we have on our website. The food we produce has not changed.

With our older packaging there was some compliance issues with some descriptors of the ingredients. For example 'low ash salmon meal'. Low Ash can not be defined under AAFCO guidelines so even though the salmon meal that we use is exactly the same as before we must remove the low ash portion of the ingredient listed.

This is a similar case with the dried potato product, dried egg product and a few other ingredients. Since the recent boom in natural and holistic ingredients and dog foods there has been a lag in definitions available through AAFCO. AAFCO defines a potato or egg being used in a food as a dried potato product or a dried egg product. There has been no change in supply or quality in any of our foods. We have been merely updating to the 'correct' definition under AAFO guidelines.

As for the chicken fat in the Ocean Blue and the Dakota Bison it has always in all of our formulations. Do to an oversight when we switched bag manufacturers a few years ago it was left off the ingredient list and wasn't discovered until we switched to the new bag manufacturer and started to review the label. We apologize for any perceived deceit as there was none intended.

Chicken fat will not trigger an allergic reaction in dogs or any animals that is allergic to chicken. The antigen that is associated with chicken allergies is only found in the protein portion of the chicken, i.e. chicken meat and meal. It is not in the fat, and chicken fat is probably the best single source of the correct ratio of omega 6 and omega 3 fatty acids available.

For the rumors of financial problems or other issue are not true. We have recently moved into a new office high rise in downtown Orlando and sales of Timberwolf have been spectacular. We are in no danger of going out of business or selling out to a faceless corporation (who we hear are the ones spreading the rumors - some companies cannot compete on quality and so must use more devious means to try to create a competitive advantage). We will continue to make, in our opinion, the best food on the market.

If you wish to change to another food over this issue there is probably nothing that we can do to to change your mind. Thank you for the time that you did use the food and we hope in the future that you try us again. For those of you on the fence as your experience please ask yourself: Has your experience with our foods been positive? Like I said earlier the formulas have been the same and have not changed in over two years. The formulas are excellent food that have changed the lives of thousands of dogs for the better, hopefully many of your own dogs. If your dog has enjoyed the food we hope you continue with us.

We soon will have the most compliant bags in the industry and many other manufacturers will be going through the same procedure as us in the future with the greater scrutiny by AAFCO. We will be having more information coming soon regarding the new bags. If you have any other questions please email at customer.support@timberwolforganics.com

Thank you,
Joseph Carey
Timberwolf Customer Service

breeze
December 12th, 2007, 12:42 PM
Breeze, I think it is still a good quality food although is now extremely pricey. If it works for Bree then I wouldn't change. Does she have any specific allergies that might be affected, I think maybe she has chicken issues but I can't remember? If you were thinking of switching her I would consider Go Natural Salmon & Oatmeal as it has quite a high calorie content. Other choices could be California Natural as they have quite simple formulas that work well and Solid Gold Wolf King is actually quite similar to TO formula.


She is doing great on it. She only have an intolerence to corn or wheat products..she does not do well with the ocean TO..
I was considering changing her IF I bring another pup into the house due to cost.. TO is getting a little pricey..and I do have to be carful with the protien % she does not do well with a high protien base.. it has to be max 27 percent..

meb999
December 13th, 2007, 01:03 PM
Thank you Meb999. I've heard/read nothing but good things about Orijen. I wish it were more available in the states. To have a 29lb bag shipped to me looks like it would cost at least twice as much as what I was paying for a 33lb bag of TO. Anyone in the states know any online stores that sell Orijen for the lowest price?

hmmm, that sucks.....
What about this?

Nature's Variety Instinct Duck Meal & Turkey Meal Formula Healthy, Natural Ingredients
Duck Meal, Turkey Meal, Salmon Meal, Canola Oil (naturally preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Tapioca, Tomato Pomace, Pumpkinseeds, Herring Meal, Sun-Cured Alfalfa Meal, Montmorillonite Clay, Natural Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Brewers Yeast, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Iodine Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Carotene, Folic Acid), Peas, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite), Sea Salt, Dried Kelp, Cranberries, Blueberries, Inulin, Freeze Dried Turkey, Freeze Dried Turkey Liver, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Rosemary Extract, Freeze Dried Turkey Hearts, Freeze Dried Ground Turkey Bone.

Tigergenesis
December 13th, 2007, 01:12 PM
I had her on Nature's Variety before, she just did not like it at all. She's never been too thrilled with kibble, but with TO Ocean Blue she went crazy for it....at first. This last bag she's not been as thrilled. I did bring home a sample of the Taste of The Wild Pacific Stream and she went crazy for it. I was trying to decide if that was a good alternative to the Ocean Blue or if I should alternate between the two.

mafiaprincess
December 13th, 2007, 01:18 PM
http://www.k9cuisine.com/ They sell Orijen along with a bunch of other good foods.. and offer free shipping for orders 50 bucks and over. I've gotten Orijen from there.

rainbow
December 13th, 2007, 06:56 PM
Thank you Meb999. I've heard/read nothing but good things about Orijen. I wish it were more available in the states. To have a 29lb bag shipped to me looks like it would cost at least twice as much as what I was paying for a 33lb bag of TO. Anyone in the states know any online stores that sell Orijen for the lowest price?

I guess you have checked out their store locator? ......

http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/storeLocator/

Have you tried contacting Champion Pet Foods (peter@championpetfoods.com) and asking who the distributor is for your area? The pet store couldn't get it where I live in B.C. from the B.C. distributor so it was made available from the distributor in Alberta.

rainbow
December 13th, 2007, 07:04 PM
This is a similar case with the dried potato product, dried egg product and a few other ingredients. Since the recent boom in natural and holistic ingredients and dog foods there has been a lag in definitions available through AAFCO. AAFCO defines a potato or egg being used in a food as a dried potato product or a dried egg product. There has been no change in supply or quality in any of our foods. We have been merely updating to the 'correct' definition under AAFO guidelines.

I am concerned about this part of Timberwolfs statement and am going to see what I can find out. Does anyone have any thoughts?

mafiaprincess
December 13th, 2007, 11:20 PM
Mordy had a pretty good reply to the entire TO letter here if you'd like to read it.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main

rainbow
December 14th, 2007, 12:34 AM
Thanks for posting that MP. Here's the side-by-side comparison chart from Mordanna's site for the ingredient changes. Quite a bit of "cheapening" done imo .....I don't know how they have the nerve to charge the price they do :rolleyes::

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/downloads/timberwolf_comparison.pdf

mafiaprincess
December 14th, 2007, 12:41 AM
NP. I didn't realize it hadn't been posted here yet.

Yeah the progression is a little sickening. I'm glad I had such a hard tiem finding it, and I didn't pour endless money to them now. I thought the crappy customer service was enough for me to avoid them. Now, the reasons are endless..

But they just bought a new headquarters.. So they aren't hurting, so far.

rainbow
December 14th, 2007, 01:26 AM
Yeah, it was the customer service that ticked me off the most too, as well as their refusal to disclose where their food was manufactured. Even when I managed to find out and posted it everywhere I could think of, they still wouldn't acknowledge it. :D And, every time I went to buy a new bag the price had gone up $2 :rolleyes:

I finally had enough when it hit $63 a bag and now with these ingredient changes I think they will lose a few customers. :o