Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

" open bar, closed bar"

allymack
November 4th, 2007, 11:29 AM
"open bar, closed bar" is just a term i heard for training a leash aggressive dog, ( when you see a dog start to constantly give you dog treats (open bar) and when the other dog is out of sight stop giving treats (closed bar)
i tried this today (enzo is leash aggressive) and i just want to know if i am doing it right, i saw another dog starting to approach( with his owner) so i put enzo in a sit and started constantl giving him treats (small pieces of treats) untill the other dog passed, enzo only tried to go after the other dog twice..which is pretty good for him, but i just wanted to make sure if i was doing this right, do i have to put him in a sit or anything or do i just give the treats, any thoughts would be a help, thanks :)

Byrd
November 4th, 2007, 11:41 AM
We started doing this sort of thing with Willow, only we call it 'pez dispensing'. In the training building she gets really excited when she's seeing other dogs work. So, I sit in a chair and have her sit in front of me. We bring in another dog and as soon as he walks in the building I start 'pez dispensing' or 'open bar' and she keeps her attention on me instead of him. Then when he leaves the food goes away. We do this several times and eventually as soon as he walks in the door her eyes go to me.

We haven't gotten to the point of doing this while another dog is working... yet.

allymack
November 4th, 2007, 05:07 PM
ok, i just wasnt sure if i was supposed to give him a command before i started the 'open bar' or not, thanks :)

Byrd
November 4th, 2007, 05:41 PM
You can sit him, I don't see why not. But, you're using this to stop leash aggression, not teach him to sit, so just be sure that he knows that.

allymack
November 4th, 2007, 05:46 PM
all right thanks, should he still be able to see the other dog, will that help him to associate it with the food?, sorry fr all the questions, i just want to make sure i am doing it right, i want him to stop being leash aggressive, it makes walks annoying sometimes!

Byrd
November 4th, 2007, 06:22 PM
Yeah, yeah, he has to associate the food with the other dog, or else it's not going right.

allymack
November 4th, 2007, 06:29 PM
allright! thanks so much !:thumbs up i hope this works:fingerscr

Byrd
November 4th, 2007, 07:07 PM
No prob. Good luck.

allymack
November 4th, 2007, 07:34 PM
has it worked well for you?

Byrd
November 4th, 2007, 08:14 PM
We haven't really been working on it. It did though while we were.

allymack
November 5th, 2007, 05:22 AM
awesome, thanks, you have been a big help!!:thumbs up :pawprint:

allymack
November 5th, 2007, 03:35 PM
we used the open bar today when we were at a soccer field and another dog came and they just walked aorund the field and id a bit of obdience and left so i started out with lots of treats and then i heeled him while the other dog was still there and let enZo see the otehr dog and started treatingagain it all went well , but we saw a great pyranese on the way home, on the sidewalk..nice and crammed :laughing: and i just couldnt get my food out fast enough to open the bar while the other dog walked by and that was the only trouble i had with him today, which is semi good i guess :shrug: i hope it keeps working.

Lissa
November 5th, 2007, 03:37 PM
i saw another dog starting to approach( with his owner) so i put enzo in a sit and started constantl giving him treats (small pieces of treats) untill the other dog passed, enzo only tried to go after the other dog twice..which is pretty good for him, but i just wanted to make sure if i was doing this right, do i have to put him in a sit or anything or do i just give the treats, any thoughts would be a help, thanks :)

The idea of an "open bar" is for your dog to make a positive association (ie: when he sees a dog, good things happen). This is great in the beginning but if there are deeper roots to WHY Enzo is leash aggressive it will only get you so far. Also, if your dog finds it more reinforcing to "go after" another dog, "open bar" isn't going to accomplish much.

You can give your dog a command if you know he will follow through - but seeing as Enzo "went after" the other dog twice, I wouldn't be giving a command until I'd proofed it.
Secondly, with leash aggressive dogs - I NEVER want them reacting. So I make sure I maintain the necessary distance to keep my dog calm. Dogs get better at what they practice so you really want to stop all reactions as much as possible.
Here's an article that you may find helpful: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001b/desensitizing.htm

With leash aggressive dogs working on attention is vital. It needs to be proofed to the highest degree so your dog defaults to you and not the environment (as Brenda Aloff says). This can also be improved/helped by using on "on by" or "leave it" command (which really works on self control).

Dodger was attacked a few times as a puppy and because of that he is reactive (fear based)... However its impossible to tell (unless I screw up) because he's learned to IGNORE ALL dogs.

It may help you and your dog to read up on Calming Signals (Turid Rugaas)... Also, Ali Brown, Emma Parsons, Jean Donaldson and Brenda Aloff have great books/DVD's on aggression and reactivity (would it be too nerdy to admit that I have them all :loser::laughing:)!

Lissa
November 5th, 2007, 03:48 PM
we used the open bar today when we were at a soccer field and another dog came and they just walked aorund the field and id a bit of obdience and left so i started out with lots of treats and then i heeled him while the other dog was still there and let enZo see the otehr dog and started treatingagain it all went well , but we saw a great pyranese on the way home, on the sidewalk..nice and crammed :laughing: and i just couldnt get my food out fast enough to open the bar while the other dog walked by and that was the only trouble i had with him today, which is semi good i guess :shrug: i hope it keeps working.

The first part of the walk sounds great! Good for both of you!:highfive:

Sidewalks are tricky (so don't blame yourself!)- in the begining I would either cross the street or get as far away from the other dog as possible and set myself up in between Dodger and the other dog (made it really easy for Dodger to focus on me).

Some things that might help you in that situation is to start running through any parlor tricks your dog knows (they tend to be high value for the dog and fun for both of you which is calming)... Remember you don't want to be tense or expecting the worse because your dog will sense that.
Also, if your dog is into retrieving or has ball drive, having them carry a ball when they see another dog generally keeps them occupied.

BTW I just saw in your siggy that Enzo is 7 months...If that is the case I would get him into a social skills class YESTERDAY. At this early age, aggression/reactivity is easily fixed... BUT if you let it continue when its surfaced so early, it will likely get worse. Is Enzo getting enough exercise for an adolescent BC?

Byrd
November 5th, 2007, 04:11 PM
I'm glad it's working.... and what Lissa said.

allymack
November 5th, 2007, 05:04 PM
thanks for the replies, lissa, i believe he is getting enough exercise in the run of a day, he get between 3 and 4 hours a daywe usually go to the field at least once a day for at least an hour, and the otehr times are hour long walks, which are fast paced and usually he gets to play with chester ( a 4 month old chesapeake bay retriever, for about 20 mins a day if not longer, and there are usually other dogs at the field which he gets along great with. but next time i will try to cross the street when i see another dog coming, i am usually pretty calm when i see another dog, but i kno that sometimes i do catch myself getting a little bit tensed up and nervous around them, but i stop myself as soon as i notice it which i hope will help set him up for sucess and that will give him some more positive reinforcement around other dogs. i have never heard of social skills classes, but i will most definitely look in to them which will hopefully help him since he is still young. thanks for all your suggestions and help :)