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Alberta wild horse cull

Lise
November 3rd, 2007, 04:39 PM
I don't know how many people are aware of the plans in Alberta to cull some of the last remaining spanish mustangs.Without these horses our country could not have been settled,this is how we're paying them back.The cull is being justified by saying these are only feral animals,who deserve no protection.Once these horses are gone we lose part of our heritage that is irreplacable.If any one is interested there is a website www.northernhorse.com

susieqt
November 3rd, 2007, 05:14 PM
This is totally unacceptable! Why would Alberta want these horses gone? Are they dangerous to people??? Do they destroy people's property? I just can't comprehend why they want to kill horses!!!:shrug:

luckypenny
November 3rd, 2007, 07:15 PM
Your links don't seem to be working for me. One is a classifieds type site and the other a sort of search engine. Any other place we can get more info?

rainbow
November 4th, 2007, 12:22 AM
I get the same thing with the links. :shrug:

Are they just going to destroy the horses :sad: :mad: or will they be offered to the public? :fingerscr

Lise
November 5th, 2007, 04:15 PM
Sorry the link is www.northernhorse.com/wildhorse Even with mustangs being offered for sale generally it is meat buyers who take them.Well schooled,sound horses go for meat,unschooled wild horses don't really have a chance.These horses need to be left were they are.

chico2
November 5th, 2007, 04:21 PM
OMG Lise,killing wild horses,they are a treasure and should be protected as such:yell:
I could not get the site you provided..
I always thought of Alberta as a horselovers prov, guess I was wrong.
Are there any people protesting this outrage???

Lise
November 5th, 2007, 04:21 PM
www.northernhorse.com/wildhorses

Lise
November 5th, 2007, 04:26 PM
It seems to be mainly people involved with horses getting upset.Not a lot of people seem to care much about horses.The Calgary stampede usually results in horses being crippled or killed for entertainment.

krdahmer
November 5th, 2007, 05:40 PM
I loathe the rodeo.... and love it when I see the animals get the best of those retard cowboys... ya roping a poor scared calf, real sporting of you jackholes, right up there with bullfighting and catch and release.:frustrated:

It's always sad when humans think they have some sort of right to decide where every living thing is supposed to live, and think its their right to kill the ones that don't comply. I am so sad for those horses. And for so so so many other needlessly harmed or killed innocent animals.

ancientgirl
November 5th, 2007, 06:32 PM
That disgusts me to no end. Horses are among the most beautiful animals on earth, and these people want to kill them for no reason.

My god, where will it end?:sad:

mummummum
November 5th, 2007, 07:56 PM
I don't understand this hypocricy and idiocy :sad: I just don't and it make me very, very tired and sad that they call themselves Canadians. They don't deserve to be in my country.

chico2
November 6th, 2007, 06:36 AM
I put the Calgary Stampede right up there together with many other"cultural"events,bullfighting,sealhunt,the spring-bearhunt etc..:yell:
I sincerely hope enough people will stand up and shout for the lives of these beautiful creatures.
I had not so good experiences when visiting Alberta ranch-country twice(Pincher Creek area),regarding dogs,horses,cows etc..and was horrified at how casually people dealt or did not deal with wounded,or sick animals,but then I grew up in a city and am totally ignorant as to what ranch-living is all about.
However this is a different scenario,needless slaughtering for no valid reason and I hope Alberta will leave them be:pray:

CearaQC
November 6th, 2007, 07:40 AM
Makes me angry to hear it. But there must be a reason and not just to cull population. Where is the land, who owns it, and what do they plan on doing with it? Just a thought.

Just look at what's happening in the USA. Go to any major national park and look at the sign and it will have a UN logo on it.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_owns_yellowstone_national_park

http://www.unep-wcmc.org/wdpa/

Click on "Search for Sites" then click the country you wish to see. Then once you find a particular park, you can see details on the area, and it should have a map.

In short, the United Nations now owns all park land, and the land is no longer publicly owned, or owned by the country where the park is located. And they are snatching up more every day. For what purpose, I do not know. Is the same thing occurring in Canada? Good question.

So anytime you hear about "World Heritage," watch and see what happens. Research terms "United Nations Biodiversity Treaty" and "Wildlands Project."

Edit: Did some extra web searches and came across this bit. It's called the "Yellowstone to Yukon Conservation Initiative," which is partnered via the Wildlands Project.

Is the area listed on the map part of the same area where they are removing the horses?

http://www.twp.org/cms/page1117.cfm

http://www.y2y.net/ where the map is...can click on it to make it bigger

Lise
November 6th, 2007, 10:58 AM
The land is mainly government owned.The reason being given is that the horses compete for grazing(untrue)and damage habitat(untrue)Horses are selective feeders eating mainly longer grass,deer etc eat shrub,herb etc.The only animal they are competing with are cattle.There are very few of theses horses left and DNA testing is being done to prove these are truly the last remaing wild spanish mustangs.If this is proven they will have protection ,but if there are none left to protect it will be too late.

chico2
November 6th, 2007, 03:44 PM
Lise,is there anything we can do,write someone?
Is this the Ministry of Natural Resources again,or local government who's decided on this?
I:pray:that the horses will be left alone..

Lise
November 7th, 2007, 07:45 AM
If you go to the web site www.northernhorse.com/wildhorses it gives information on addresses for gov't who are deciding this is a good idea.The cull began beginning of November and there are probably less than two hundred of these horses left.

chico2
November 7th, 2007, 03:24 PM
Thank you,if I can do nothing else,at least I can write:shrug:

allymack
November 8th, 2007, 07:50 PM
i heard something about this last year too! this is absolutely the worst thing i have heard in a long time! horses are gorgeous animals! i couldnt imagine this happening to innocent horses, why would you want to get rid of wild horses, it is a beautiful sight to see them running! also i saw people talking about the rodeo, i hate it also! i dont see how people could enjoy watching innocent animals being prodded to jump around, and rope up poor innocent calves, getting roped causes severe neck injuries, can damage their legs, or kill them ( i did a paper on this, if i can find it i will scan it on to the computer for you to read...if you would like) i am actually sickened by this horse cull thoguh! i hope someting is done, and quick!

glitterless
November 15th, 2007, 04:32 AM
The horses are competing with cattle for pasture. I don't think that killing them or rounding them up and selling them for meat is the solution either. It really saddens me. I've heard that the government's defense is that these horses are not "wild," but "feral" because horses are not indigenous to North America. Thus, they have no right to be on the land and ranchers can do as they please with them.

I don't know what can be done. There are groups in Alberta that are trying to fight this, but there are millions, if not billions of dollars in cattle in Alberta and I'm afraid that the ranchers will win this fight.

There really aren't many wild horses left in Alberta and BC. I think that they are an important part of our heritage and I'd like to see them left alone in what I believe to be their real home.

Is anyone here familiar with the work that the Bureau of Land Management does in the US? I don't know the details, but I believe that they control herds of horses for the same reasons. Many are caught and sold at auction to approved homes and the program seems to be well received among horse people. I don't know if horses are still a nuisance where the BLM is working or if they've managed the problem.

We have regulations for hunting in Canada. While I'm not sure where exactly I stand on the issue of hunting, I can somewhat justify controlled numbers of animals being hunted annually. I don't like human interference, but I do think that hunting prevents overpopulation, starvation, and disease. Maybe there should be a season for horses to help control the numbers?

My parents are farmers and I understand that sometimes it is necessary to kill or relocate an animal that is threatening your livestock. I don't mean to jump to conclusions, but I'm afraid that ranchers are going too far and shooting any horse, nuisance or not. It's one thing to control the numbers and discourage the horses from grazing on certain pieces of land and another to wipe out a herd. Something has to happen.

There have been newscasts on this issue over the past year or two, but I've never really seen anything take off. There doesn't seem to be enough public interest. It's unfortunate.

chico2
November 15th, 2007, 06:44 AM
Glitterless,as far as I know,nothing about the fate of these horses has been reported here in Ontario,this is the first I heard about it.
I am certain like in your case,people involved with horses know.
I am a bit baffled at how anyone could consider horses a nuisance:confused:
They don't kill people or cattle,they don't rummage in the garbage or are a threat to anybody.
I am certain Alberta is large enough to support a few horses.
My son lives in Vermillion Alberta,he hates hunting-season,they hear shots ring out every night,although it's prohibited to hunt after dark.
Relatives of his fiancee had 2 cows shot by trespassing "hunters",I can understand the principal of hunting,but believe for many it's nothing more than a killing-spree.

Lise
November 15th, 2007, 07:53 AM
Every year 'Permits'are handed out for these horses to be captured,they are allowed three stallions one mare,no limit on number of permits.Capture season runs from November 1 to February 28 destrying the herd fabric.These horses generally end up at slaughter as most are considered untrainable.Sable island ponies are protected by law.DNA testing has proven some of these horses are pure iberian descent,pure spanish mustang,not feral horses.They used to number in the thousand there now number approx two hundred.As far as the BLM in the US goes their treatment has gone under scrutiny many times as mustangs were shipped directly to slaughterhouses many not even surviving the trip to their deaths,so I wouldn't hold them up as an example of good horse management.Canada is the second largest country in the world and we can't spare pasture for the last few hundred horses to live in peace.A tiny country like England gives protection to New Forest and their Exmoor ponies says something about us eh?

chico2
November 15th, 2007, 04:14 PM
OMG Lise,people are often such horrid creatures:yell:
Feral Horses?
What exactly does that mean,would not all wild horses be called feral,although I certainly do not like that word.
Or does it mean,they just don't belong?
Who do these people think they are,deciding to kill horses,or bears,seals,moose or whatever,they have just as much right to live on this earth as we do..makes me sick to the heart:sad:

glitterless
November 16th, 2007, 12:31 AM
It makes me sick too. I remember seeing this on CTV last year. There were clips of dead mares and foals that people had shot and left to rot. Why kill a foal? It's just beyond me.

They are considered feral because, like Lise said, until the horses are DNA tested, the government sees them as runaways/strays or products of them. They don't see these as an animal that's indigenous to Alberta and don't want to protect them. I think it has more to do with politics. I lived in Alberta for a short while, and although most of the people I knew were involved with horses and cattle, it did seem very different and definitely more ranching-oriented than Ontario. People that I knew actually owned shares in cattle. It's a huge business. I think they are more worried about losing money than protecting a part of our heritage.

I do think that these horses are probably grazing on land that cattle should be grazing on. However, it's my belief that we humans are the ones with the problem and need to find a way to live in harmony with nature. I don't think that we have any right to slaughter animals for our own benefit.

I'll look into this more. I posted about this on a horse forum after seeing that newscast last year, but there didn't seem to be a lot of interest, even among fellow horse people. The horse market is already flooded. Prices are really low and no one really wants to pay for or even take on wild, unbroke horses.

Thanks for the info on the BLM and everything, Lise. I wasn't aware of that. All of the literature that I've read has been very pro BLM and I haven't heard the other side.

I don't necessarily want to see an end to horse slaughter, but it really bothers me that these amazing animals who helped shape our world will not be around much longer. I believe that there are some places in BC where bands still run and are protected, but I don't know how long that will last.

Lise
November 16th, 2007, 07:58 AM
You're right about the market being flooded with too many horses.Everyone with a mare seems to think she should be bred.The US is currently debating a bill to end the commercial slaughter of horses and to ban export to slaughter,as they have already done in many european countries.Short term this will unfortunately result in horses being dumped,long term it will force the horse industries to rethink breeding practices.Too many horse owners think a horse that is no longer sound should be disposed of.I rode for many years in England,the attitude is so different every stable had old horses that were just on pasture(the farms are smaller than here on average)These horses were still being well cared for and enjoying a well earned retirement.I understand horses are expensive but a horse that has worked hard for their rider deserves more than being trucked off to slaughter,it's life ending in terror at the hands of strangers in a slaughter house.Sorry to go off subject Glitterless if you want more info on the wild horse cull let me know and I'll send it to you
Jack (canadian gelding semi retired)
Arabesque(arab gelding)
Happy Apppy(warmbloood/appaloosa hunter eventer)
Rio (Welsh/shetland)
Folly(insane mule)
Spec(arab mare foster)
Katura(standardbred mare foster)

glitterless
November 17th, 2007, 12:09 AM
I'll PM you with my email address, Lise. I would love more info.

I totally agree with you about breeding practices and keeping older horses. I realize where some people are coming from, but to me a horse is more than an object.

I often discuss slaughter and breeding on forums and one argument that I always get is "Who has the right to tell me not to breed my mare?" They just don't get it. I know people who keep grade stallions. Why? Why? Why? It drives me crazy. I don't want to take away peoples rights, but I have seen some bad cases of neglect and I'd love to find a way to end it.

Then there's the breeders of registered stock who can justify breeding because their animals have papers. It is so much more than that. I know a woman with a really well bred Arab stallion. She bought him to start a breeding program 20 something years ago. By the time I met her about 10 years ago, she had a herd of about 50 totally wild horses. Those were just the ones alive at that point. I've heard rumours that foals used to die in her pastures and she wouldn't even notice. Yep, most of her stock was registered or could have been, but who wants wormy, unbroke horses? Most of them ended up going for meat.

That kind of stuff is avoidable. There will always be older, broken down animals that people will want to ship off for meat, but to go out of your way to breed unmarketable animals? Ridiculous.

Okay, I'll get off my high horse now ;) I tend to get carried away when this subject comes up.

Lise
November 17th, 2007, 06:31 AM
To me shipping for meat is inexcusable.A horse is a flight animal ,as well a herd animal,so to shipped either alone or with horses he doesn't know and then to be trapped by strangers in a place that reeks of blood and terror,well every owner or rider owes their horse more.There is always the option of being put down surrounded by the horses and people they know in peaceful surroundings,we do it for our dogs and cats.As far as a breeding both of my fosters are well bred registered mares,there are at least six other registered mares,as well as horse who appears on the spruce meadows website,all in rescue looking for permanent homes.It's maybe time horse breeders,like reputable dog breeders take responsability for the foals they breed.Okay I'll get off my high horse too.My gangs waiting at the gate for breakfast,so I'm off.

Gazoo
November 19th, 2007, 05:35 PM
There simply aren't wild horses here in Alberta.

They are feral horses that came from domestic stock and became feral and bred. In fact there have not been indigenous horses in North America for 10,000+ years!!!

There is no historical or ecological reasons to not keep these horse herds managable and avoid them overgrazing communal grazing areas.

Feral horses will overgraze a pasture until there is nothing left -- destroying valuable and properly managed pastures leased by ranchers from the Alberta government. They also need to be managed or they will also destroy habitat for the indigenous species!!!!!

In addition, in case some of you don't know horses are bred for meat all over Alberta for the world market. Canada slaughters about 60,000 horses a year to the food markets in Asia and Europe.

I'm not making an ethical -right or wrong statement, however, why is eating beef OK but horse meat wrong?

Lise
November 20th, 2007, 12:28 PM
There have been DNA tests done on a filly whose mother was captured from one of the herds in in Alberta when she was pregnant with her.The tests proved this filly is of Iberian blood.Mustang descent,and not a feral horse.To say horses are bred all over Alberta for overseas meat trade is not something I would be proud of,they also supply the PMU trade.Alberta doesn't seem to be a very equine friendly place,which is kind of strange when you consider how much money they make with horses involved with Spruce Meadows and the infamous Stampede.As far as what's the difference between a cow or a horse going for slaughter,none both deserve a life and a humane death not slaughter.

Gazoo
November 20th, 2007, 03:22 PM
Sorry but those are not indigenous horses either.

The Iberian stock are DOMESTIC horses that were BROUGHT BY HUMANS from Spain that became feral. They are NOT native species.

The beautiful and often romanticized Mustangs by their very nature -- are feral horses!!!

There have not been native/indigenous horses in North America for 10,000+ years. These last indogenous horses known as "Equus scotti" or as "Pleistocene horse" became extinct in pre-historic times.

chico2
November 20th, 2007, 03:33 PM
To my untrained eye,a horse is a horse and seeing wild horses is a beautiful thing,whether they grace on cattle-land or not,the idea of gun-crazed Albertans out there hoping to kill themselves a horse,makes me ill.
There is no excuse,no circumstances where this would in any way be acceptable to me.

glitterless
November 20th, 2007, 04:05 PM
Interesting observations, Gazoo.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with eating horse meat. Nor do I think there's anything wrong with eating dog or cat meat. I eat beef, but I couldn't eat a horse, nor a dog, nor a cat. Maybe there is nothing logical about my feelings, but I'm not here to argue that.

I'm not here to preach about hunting or animal rights. What I think is wrong is that as a Canadian and North American, I feel that a part of our heritage is being destroyed by this wild/feral horse cull. I am not debating the fact that horses did not originate in North America. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I don't know enough about it to comment. However, horses played vital roles in the development of our country and it bothers me that some people can so easily shoot them or ship them off and not worry about protecting all that's left.

I see nothing wrong with farmers taking measures to protect their livestock. If a wild animal was immediately threatening my livestock, I would have no problem using necessary force to solve the problem. However, I think it's very unfair that some people are rounding up these horses and getting money for them because the horses are supposedly grazing on their land.

I know that these horses are considered pests, but this cull needs to be controlled and I don't think that it is. It's one thing to decrease the numbers of horses on the range to avoid overgrazing and another altogether to allow anyone to shoot and kill any horse any time.

There must be another answer. Of course I'm somewhat biased as a horse owner, but the eradication of any animal bothers me. Imagine if moose became extinct in Canada? To me and many others, the horse is a symbol of freedom and a reminder of what our ancestors went through. I'd love to one day see herds of wild horses, but I'm afraid that won't happen.