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antifreeze symptoms description, please?

zedmelon
May 29th, 2004, 12:03 AM
What are the symptoms I should see if my dog has consumed some antifreeze? I've found a bit of info that may prove useful, but I'm sure there's got to be more.
from page at link below
"Typical symptoms which may occur within 1 - 6 hours after ingestion can include excessive thirst and urination, in coordination, vomiting, rapid heart rate and a respiratory rate leading to a coma and death."
Are there any other signs I might be able to notice? I've left a voice message for the vet
(10:30 pm on a Friday :( and no call back in over 30 minutes).

Due to the vaguely circumstantial suggestion that she may have had a very small amount, I have only a minor concern at this point, from what I've already been able to discover. This link is pretty much all I've found, and I thought I'd share it with the members here, because every little bit helps.

Editors, please remove this link if it's a conflict of interest to this site, but if it's possible, can we leave the info above?
http://www.pets.ca/pettips/tips-59.htm

edit, three hours later:

"www.pets.ca?" A conflict of interest to THIS forum?
Ugh.

One of these days I plan to learn how to READ. *smacks forehead*

I'm a bit surprised that a search for "antifreeze" or "anti freeze" on this forum only produced five or six threads. Most of us are aware that it's a toxin, but none of these threads described the symptoms.

Lucky Rescue
May 29th, 2004, 12:17 AM
If you even suspect your dog may have ingested antifreeze, get it to the vet ASAP.

Antifreeze poisoning occurs in two stages: In the first stage, the ethylene glycol in the antifreeze causes a drunken appearance in the animal within about 30 minutes which may continue for several hours. After passing through stage 1, the animal appears to recover. Stage 2 begins when the dog’s liver begins metabolizing the ethylene glycol, changing it into more toxic substances. Within 12 to 36 hours of ingestion, these metabolites have reached such a level that the dog’s kidneys stop functioning, and the animal slips into a coma.

Getting the dog to a veterinarian is critical within the first 9-12 hours following ingestion. After that length of time, the liver will have already begun metabolizing the ethylene glycol into substances that cause kidney failure and ultimately death. I have been asked the question by several people-What should be done immediately care for my pet. Should I induce vomiting or give activated charcoal to my pet? These are very short term fixes and not a cure. The faster your pet is treated by a veterinarian the better the chances of recovery. Again, this poison is extremely toxic.

zedmelon
May 29th, 2004, 03:24 AM
Well hopefully she didn't. I hope I don't sound apathetic; if you knew me personally you'd know that's not the case. I left a message for the vet four and a half hours ago and still haven't heard back. Rest assured that if something bad happens, this won't be the only forum where I post the number. The sign on the door said,
"Our emergency clinic is no longer operating from this location. If you're worried and want some reassurance from a professional, please call this number that no one will answer. Leave a message if you like, but we'll likely ignore it, because we're in Cozumel and you're not."

...or something like that.

Here's what happened, if it's still relevant. I'm pretty much just venting at this point.

Went with my son to Wal-Mart to get diapers. I take the dog with us as much as possible, because she's lost some spotlight since he was born 20 months ago, she loves the ride, and she's good about staying in the truck, even with windows lowered all the way. Tonight, we parked within 40 or so feet of a few kids working on their car. I didn't realize until later that they had been working on their radiator. We were inside for ten minutes tops. We got to the parking lot and down our row came this happy black dog. Damit. That's OUR dog.

I called her and she followed immediately, tail down. After years of being my "escape artist," she obeys very well in public, except "stay," evidently. Not Lassie, but close. On the way back to the truck, I saw the river of crap left by the kids who had apparently no respect for the environment nor a problem fouling someone else's property. I noticed that it was antifreeze (or a mix thereof), but that still didn't "click" until the moment she jumped into the front seat.

Crap.

I called my GF, who works in a hospital lab (for humans, but they prove to be very resourceful when trying to find great new dumb stuff to do to themselves, so she's got answers for many errata). She said a few things about kidney failure and comas that didn't really help encourage me. I noticed she (the dog) was a bit subdued, but in retrospect, it's less likely from being sick and more likely because
1. I scolded her for leaving the truck,
2. I had panic & irritation in my voice when I called the GF, and
3. she usually keeps her head inside and just sits there when we're over 40 mph anyway (highway; I wasn't speeding).

I expected vomiting, maybe shakes, but I didn't see anything out of the ordinary. She also didn't sit there very long, which is consistent with her good nature, blowing off having gotten in trouble and getting back to the excitement.

The vet I thought was open 24 hrs is not any more, so I came home and Googled the link above (hope it doesn't cause a conflict... Geez I'm dumb). I also hit Qwestdex (or whatever they call it this week) to find vetrinarians in my area that advertise as being open at night. None did. There used to be three or four.

She got one small drink of water when we got home. She usually doesn't drink much, so that's par. I've checked her breathing, I made her jump the baby gate a few times, thinking it'd be a good way to demarcate drunken characteristics if she had any. I took her outside to run for just a minute, not wanting to get her so tired that she'd DEFINITELY need water. She came back breathing hard, but she calmed down quickly and still didn't drink anything, even after I tapped the bowl and got her to sniff it (just in case there's peanut butter on my finger, dumb dog).

Again, it's largely circumstantial, and since she doesn't drink much, any amount of antifreeze she ingested would be quite small. I guess being a new dad of an actual human baby makes me a bit overly cautious. She's stayed in the car for much longer than that before (probably up to 45 mintues), but there was something too tempting this evening. In any case, whether I'm concerned or not, there's nowhere to take her, so I'm hoping my relaxed mindset is warranted and not a result of convincing myself to not be worried.

A bit more Googling has found that introducing vodka directly into the bloodstream is part of treatment to antifreeze poisoning. Maybe I'll just give her a sip of my beer. ;)

LuckyRescue, thank you so much for the quick reply, and (Lucky or anyone else) if you've read this far, thanks for patronizing me.

WOODY
May 29th, 2004, 06:10 AM
First of all I hope the dog did not ingest antifreeze and is fine.
Opps-
I am fanatical about not leaving dogs in vehicles with the windows rolled down for just the reason you experienced. I would hope this was a learning experience for you. These fur children can be good for years and one boo-boo and it can be over. Leave windows cracked or leave dog at home.
Secondly I live in farming country and everyone seems to enjoy carrying their dog in the back of a pick up truck. Don't. I HAVE SEEN TOO MANY DEAD or CRIPPLED DOGS FROM ACCIDENTS OR SHARP TURNS.

Dogs don't belong in the back of truck beds any more than women belong on "my" tractors. (Please note I said MY tractors so as to not offend the vast majority of female subscribers on this board) LOL.

In any case have Dog checked and hopefully our countries (I live in the states but it would appear this is a vastly Canadian board) will pass legislation outlawing toxic antifreeze. There are several non toxic antifreezes available but due to expense many ignore it.

I did not mean to BASH your BONES over the dog in car issue but it is a true Pet Peeve with me.

Let us know how dog is doing and I would also research the vets and find one who is or has someone on call 24/7. I have 2 on the front of my fridge.

WOODY :D

mona_b
May 29th, 2004, 06:53 AM
I agree 110% WOODY....And she even got scolded for it.Poor girl..... :(

I also hope she didn't ingest it.

Lucky Rescue
May 29th, 2004, 08:34 AM
Not only is antifreeze toxic, but it has a sweet taste that is very attractive to dogs.:(

zedmelon, I can see that you really love your dog, but as said, please do not leave the car windows rolled down when the dog is in the car.

Someone I know left the window down only a quarter of the way, and her dog saw something irresistable while the car was going 60mph on the highway and jumped out.:eek Miraculously, he survived.

If it's not something you would allow your kids to do (hanging out the window of a moving car) don't let your dog do it. And a dog sitting in an open car in the parking lot will jump out, as you've seen, and get lost, stolen, run over, or drink toxic substances. If you are going to leave her this way, at least secure her with a seat belt.

I hope your dog will be okay!

zedmelon
May 29th, 2004, 03:54 PM
She's fine today, so she likely didn't have any antifreeze. Thank you to everyone for your sincerely appreciated concern and well wishes. She's having a chase dream at my feet right now, and I'm finally soothed by it again rather than worrying it may a chemical-induced nightmare.

I stayed up with her until around 4:30 am and still haven't heard from the vet. Not my regular vet (who's not open 24hrs), and I'll drive past the office today to verify the phone number, again.

The Canadian readers may be aware that it's Memorial Day weekend here in the US, which I think is the reason no one's called me. Hey, I don't care if you take a holiday or not; leave a sign on the door that says, "call between now & Monday, and you're screwed," so I won't count on you.</rant>

Replies below are to any & everyone, but are semi-sorted by who said what.

WOODY
I'm also in the states. What part?

Sorry for the confusion; I have a habit of referring to my SUV as my "truck." Probably because it's verbally shorter, but also I'm a sysadmin with many lazy^H^H^H^H efficient habits. And it sounds weirdly yuppie to me: "Out in my sport utility vehicle," like the spoiled rich kid bully antagonists in all those 80s movies. Schlemantics.

Having dogs, the SUV is ideal for me, but also for other reasons as well.
1. I live in Colorado, where it can snow up until June, and water and/or flash flooding is everywhere. One weekend in 1997 it snowed so much the governor declared a state of emergency, making it illegal to drive without good cause. I rescued a friend from her heat- and power-less apartment, helping three cars get unstuck on the way.
2. I am a professional musician (with plenty of heavy gear that doesn't like to get wet if it rains on gig night), and
3. It's beautiful heading to the hills now and then.

Sorry to deviate so far off topic, but I figured I'd enumerate since the SUV has received some heat in the past few years, especially with people whose driving wouldn't change in a Geo Metro. I'm not the SUV owner with a condo downtown and an executive job four miles away where the closest thing to off-roading is the pothole at 34th and Park Avenue. My truck is never without my bag containing a blanket, water, jacket, flashlight, small compressor, jumper cables, first aid kit... I know many Canadians will think, "Bah, you wanna see SNOW?" But at least I don't live in Phoenix and insist that I need this truck because I buy groceries. ;)

You're right on the truck bed thing; it makes me nervous each time I see it. And having been in two rather serious accidents (never with dogs or my son--*knock knock*), I still can't decide whether it's encouraging or not to see a leash tying the dog to the bed by the neck.

mona_b
And she even got scolded for it.Poor girl...

Heh. well, don't worry for her too much. It consisted of
<sternVoice with=pointyfinger>"YOU stay in the truck."</sternVoice>

She got over it pretty quickly. She's a good girl and a great dog. She'll chase rabbits to the edge of our property, and I no longer even have to remind her that she's reached the border. She's the best dog ever. I try to keep her in line while remaining understanding under certain circumstances.

LuckyRescue
Not only is antifreeze toxic, but it has a sweet taste that is very attractive to dogs.

Yeah, I tasted it around a couple years ago. I had come from work when I stopped to help a girl who needed coolant. I had some, so I filled her radiator but got some on my finger. With nowhere to wipe it, I shook off as much as I could and then ended the curiosity once and for all (while saving my suit). Yuck. Dumb? Yeah, probably, but I like that suit. Plus I'm no longer curious, and most of us still are ;)

But there is a sweetness to it. Considering some of the other things we've all seen our dogs eat, it's not a shock to hear they like this. Maybe Sasha doesn't like it either.

She's always good in the car, exceptionally intelligent. We drive past horses regularly, and oh boy does she look, but even as a puppy, I think she understood the concept of "this is WAY faster than I can run, better stay put." I wonder how "Lassie" she'd be if I had the time to REALLY work with her.

Heh. Just pictured her in a seat belt. That's just funny. I know it's a smart choice, but she's such a free spirit, I'd just get the "bath" look.

I always drive more carefully when she's in the car. She's gotten to know the phrase "turning left" and sits down every time. If I have to stop more suddenly than I'd like, she always looks appreciative after I do the mom-arm-seat-belt.

For years, she'd find holes in the fence at the old house, even holes I could never find. Then she just got really manageable, nearly overnight. She hasn't had a "stay" problem in a looooooong time. That was one reason the discipline was so minor, time off for good behavior.

I need to find a solution with summer coming; feel free to offer suggestions. We used to do lots of things that are just to hard or dangerous for my son until he's a bit older. Once I considered taking her to work--as a co worker did--but her buddy was too neurotic to bring also. Now I work 70-80 hours a week, have a toddler who two years ago had no stake in my attention, and I hate the look on her face when she can't come. But I also don't want to leave her in a hot car, and even rolling up the windows halfway pushes the temp into the stratosphere. I know people would (rightfully) complain in that case as well. And she could still get out if they were only up halfway. Obviously at night, it won't be an issue. I'll have to be more judicious about when she can come. But the trips to the park while Mama's at work aren't as frequent as I wish they could be. :(

I know there's no ideal in this, but suggestions, anyone?

Chany
May 29th, 2004, 07:27 PM
Zedmelon welcome! I don't think you mentioned what breed your dog is? Just being snoopy ;) Or her name or was I reading these posts to fast? Anywho I'm glad she's doing better but you still are going to consult your vet right? :D
Just in case!
Whenever I get suckered in by that look ( and yes dogs do give looks :p ) if I have to leave them in the truck my solution is: are you ready? Air Conditioning!!!!!! ( Sorry just some of your comments were humorous so I thought you might enjoy a smart ass comment back ;) ) You might burn a little extra fuel but I think its still fairly cheap for you guys. haha! It at least makes me think twice or thrice if they can indeed come with. If I'm feeling cheap and truck needs fuel then the answer is no. If mommas feeling rich then sure they can come along. However don't leave it going full blast minimum does the job and you don't waste more time than you have to but if you have a 2 year old I believe your probably in and out of there.
Hope this helps or at least makes you smile. :D

WOODY
May 30th, 2004, 02:45 AM
WOODY
I'm also in the states. What part?--Michigan
:)

zedmelon
May 31st, 2004, 08:13 PM
Hi, Chany. Heh. Yeah, you made me smile. Sasha's a black lab/chow mix. She got the Chow ears, tongue, and tenacity (she NEVER gives up, never backs down from other dogs who pick fights, etc), but she got the lab personality and temperment. My son is 20 months old (pic from March- http://meandsomefriends.org/Rylan/current ), and she's wonderful to him. He has a lawnmower and similar toys that all get driven into her on a regular basis. She jumps up, irritated and moves, again and again, and again. When he pulls her tail, she turns to look at me like "You promised I'd like this one soon. Is it soon yet?" then squirms away. When he gets home, she still wags up to him and lets him hug her. I know in a year, they'll be inseperable; I dread the day I have to explain to him why she's gone.

AFA air conditioning... well, that's a good idea once I have mine fixed :\

Still, the petrol here has gotten quite pricey, so her involvement will likely be relegated to short trips even after the necessary repairs have been made. Not very often that "Daddy's feeling rich." ;)

and yes dogs do give looks

I'm glad someone else mentions this. I wonder how much of what produces these looks is interpretable as being as "human" as we'd like, and how much of it materializes in the blank space between dog and owner. I prefer the way I phrased this sentiment the other day, but my post was already FAR too long, so it became a digital ghost. :P

Thanks, btw. Always glad to know my pointy sarcasm has pierced a funny bone.

chico2
May 31st, 2004, 10:12 PM
Cute little guy...your son I mean :D and yes,you are a whole lot of fun to read!!! I once,eons ago had a German Shepard/Chow mix,chunky Chow-body,blue tounge but the colouring and face of a GS,a wonderful dog.

Luba
May 31st, 2004, 11:18 PM
Your son is very cute :D

Glad the dog is doing fine, that can be scarey.

There are BTW screen devices you can use on your car windows for your dogs. Sort of like what you may see from the K9 unit cars (police dog services)

You roll your window down then place the heavy plastic vent in the window and roll it back up so that it is firmly in place against the window and window frame. The dog gets air and is secure in the vehicle :D

But lets not leave doggie in a hot car in the summer!