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Preventing neutering of a grown dog

gpuck
October 24th, 2007, 08:43 PM
Hello everybody,
animal services gave my friend til december to neuter his pitbull.
the pitbull is 6 years old, and i have heard horror stories about what happens to a dogs behaviour that get neutered at older ages.

he will not have to get neutered IF my friend can get a vet's note (ontario based) that says he is too old for the procedure. he is so friendly, playful and caring, such a polar opposite of those stupid stereotypes of pitbulls that it would kill me to see anything bad ever happen to him. if ANYBODY has any contacts that could help out, please help.

i want to point out that we are willing to travel to ANY veterinarian in ontario who realizes how detrimental this would be to him is and is willing to attest to it.

toronto, thunder bay, ottawa, wherever. ANY vet licensed in ontario. please tell me if you have any contacts.

Thanks guys.

susieqt
October 24th, 2007, 09:00 PM
Hi, gpuck,
I know that you are concerned about the well-being of your friend's pitbull, however, I don't agree there are many horror stories with regards to neutering an older dog.
I have adopted many older dogs during the past years and have had them all neutered and not one of them have suffered any character or physical change because of it.
It is a very simple procedure, done in a few minutes really, and your firiend's dog will come out of it very well.
If it comes to the point that he HAS to get it done, it really is not a big deal.

gpuck
October 24th, 2007, 09:06 PM
hello susie,
you are right that there aren't many stories about it, but i know first hand that behavioural changes are possible on the rare occasion and we don't want to take any risks.

Frenchy
October 24th, 2007, 09:11 PM
There are only positive sides to get a pet neutered ! If you're so concern about his health, just ask for blood test before the procedure.

clm
October 25th, 2007, 07:55 AM
the pitbull is 6 years old, and i have heard horror stories about what happens to a dogs behaviour that get neutered at older ages.

he will not have to get neutered IF my friend can get a vet's note (ontario based) that says he is too old for the procedure. he is so friendly, playful and caring, such a polar opposite of those stupid stereotypes of pitbulls that it would kill me to see anything bad ever happen to him. if ANYBODY has any contacts that could help out, please help.

i want to point out that we are willing to travel to ANY veterinarian in ontario who realizes how detrimental this would be to him is and is willing to attest to it.





Sorry, but that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard and I have serious doubts that that's why you don't want him to be fixed.
A 6 year old pit bull is not too old to be neutered. If he's not well enough to be put under for an operation a vet will tell you that, otherwise, instead of wasting time trying to find a vet who'll give you a note, get him neutered....it totally eliminates any chance of testicular cancer.


Cindy

ancientgirl
October 25th, 2007, 09:27 AM
I have only ever heard good things about spaying AND neutering dogs and cats. The very fact alone that it can prevent ovarian and mammary cancer in females and testicular cancer in males was enough for me to go running to have mine fixed.

6 doesn't seem old for a dog, and I don't see where there would be any danger in it.

luckypenny
October 25th, 2007, 10:51 AM
If after thorough research, your friend is still against neutering, and if accepted by Animal Services, vasectomy, with little or no adverse effects, may be another option for him to consider.

krdahmer
October 25th, 2007, 11:13 AM
If your friend does not comply don't they run the risk of animal control seizing the dog and destroying it (because it's a pitbull)?:shrug: And I highly doubt you will find a vet anywhere in Ontario that would emphatically state that neutering an older (which I don't think 6 is) is dangerous.... neutering at any age carried risks, but they can be tested through blood before they are ever put under.
I would tell them to find out about the vasectomy option (I just read up on it and it seems to be a viable option for the situation as you seem to be concerned with behavioural changes and that boasts no behavioural changes just an inability to impregnante other dogs- which is the main concern of animal control because of the ban) and then if not, get him neutered, its better than the alternative.

Chicklet
October 25th, 2007, 11:31 AM
I have noted changes in some male dogs upon neutering them,
However not always to the worse, Depends on how you want to look at it and of course each dog is different,
The main things I've seen was over a shorter period of time the Dog can become less aggressive (which would be a bonus, ) I've also noted mild to drastic laziness & Weight gain.

Purpledomino
October 25th, 2007, 12:54 PM
If you've "heard" horror stories resulting from neutering an adult dog, regarding his behaviour or otherwise, it is all bunk. You would be wise to properly educate yourself and your friend instead of taking to heart whatever inconceivable myths you have heard about altering a dog.

Neutering him may indeed change his behaviour, of course, as he will definately not be drawn to react to raging testosterone, and this can only be seen as a positive. All the admirable qualities in this dog will remain, and he will definately be happier and healthier no question.

Please consider the collective advise from the posters here, they are knowledgeable and caring about dogs and their welfare, they wouldn't steer you wrong!

Purpledomino
October 25th, 2007, 01:00 PM
hello susie,
you are right that there aren't many stories about it, but i know first hand that behavioural changes are possible on the rare occasion and we don't want to take any risks.


I'm interested as to what behavioural changes you encountered. Also.... I am dumbfounded that you aren't willing to take risks regarding this dog, but you would take the risk of subjecting him to testicular cancer from keeping him unaltered? :shrug:

Ford Girl
October 25th, 2007, 01:36 PM
I myself have read and researched tones of info that shows the opposite, there are so many health risk to unfixed animals, life expectancy decreases, cancer of all kinds, temperment issues, etc...

I would fix the dog if I were you. I too am interested in the facts or research that shows the bad side effects to fixing a dog? I have never read anything that shows this, and usually you find all kinds of contradicting info about what ever you are looking for, but not this one, I've never read anything bad about fixing an animal.

I also agree, 6 isn't too old?? :shrug: It isn't even old?

white wrabbit
October 25th, 2007, 07:30 PM
neutering an older dog.. our last dag was (5-7 according to the humane society) when we adopted him.. he was not fixed at that point.. we got him fixed as the agreement stated.. for his behavioral change.. he did not try to run off and ummmm you know what every female he met.. he was more trust able to stay around the house and not run off.. witch he did not run off..

i would of left this post alone i am all for the getting animals fixed.. and believe it needs to be done.. but we did have one problem when we got ours fixed.. he had a bladder control problem after he was like having a small dog and got excited and lost it all over the floor..

we were told it happened (by the vet) cuz he was an older dog. how ever we still could not tell you exactly how old he was.. he could of been older then 7..

now the vasectomy is that the same or some thing different?

gpuck
October 25th, 2007, 07:36 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=2326799
There you guys go, and it's NCBI not some random angelfire site.
All of the 'positive' changes ie decrease in hypersexuality, gentleness aren't incentive, because the dog is already well behaved and gentle.
The increased eating and laziness that comes along are things that aren't wanted.

As for testicular cancer, he gets checked up regularly, and IF it even happens, testicular cancer is easy to treat once caught (castration in that cause would be the option).

Firsthand experience; a neighbour got his boxer castrated and after that it became aggressive to the point where it attacked his little sister and it had to be put to sleep. Since this is an isolated anecdotal case you guys can dismiss it if you'd like, but I'm not going to.

But it should be noted that the changes are not predictable - sure there is a correlation between certain behaviours but just because gentleness is generally increased doesn't mean it can't be decreased just as laziness can be decreased after the procedure.

The point is - we LIKE the dog's personality and don't want chemical changes to compromise who he is. You cannot argue against that. If you don't agree that behavioural changes are possible then you are clearly blind.

Sorry, but that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard and I have serious doubts that that's why you don't want him to be fixed.

Any mod can feel free to close this topic as people keep trying to force their beliefs on me and are being clearly no help. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned his breed...

Winston
October 25th, 2007, 07:50 PM
Honestly I wasn't going to post on this but I have to say this!!

IT IS NOT THE BREED!

We all love cats and dogs and other animals here...You came for an opinion and you got some! You may not like it but there is a wealth of information here from first hand experience with alot of people..and we are all over the place..Canada..USA...UK..so please dont start using the dog breed as an excuse to state your point.

Take the advice and decide from there if it fits for you...if it doesnt we are not shoving it down your throat and can't make you do anything...It is just opinions....I think I have said enough!

Cindy

coppperbelle
October 25th, 2007, 08:15 PM
First of all this has nothing to do with breed. I am not sure why you came here, asked for advice and then because maybe you didn't hear what you wanted to hear presented us with some article on the pros of not neutering. Many of us here work with rescue groups, animal shelters and your article is not going to change any of our minds. We see first hand the results of people not neutering their animals and it ain't pretty.

There are definite benefits of neutering. Over the years I have had many of the male dogs I have fostered neutered. They have ranged in age from puppy to 12 year old. I have never and I mean never noticed a change in behavior that was negative. If anything neutering takes the "edge" off and they become more relaxed because they no longer have that instinct to procreate. As for your neighbor's Boxer I seriously doubt it had anything to do with his neutering that turned him aggressive.

punkyamberlea
October 25th, 2007, 08:34 PM
Just get the dog fixed. unless you want to spend thousands on chemo when he gets testicular cancer.

ancientgirl
October 25th, 2007, 09:04 PM
I have to agree with some of the other posters. You came for advice, and when you didn't get the advice you wanted, rather references for vets who would give you an excuse letter to not have the procedure done, you got angry.

This is a very pro spay/neuter board, and for not one but a great many reasons.

From what you stated in your last post you would rather take the chance on him getting testicular cancer, and hopefully catch it early and hope its treatable, than have him neutered and cut that possibility once and for all?

What happens when you can't get a vet to agree with you and December comes and the dog is not neutered? Then what are you going to do? Move? Fake some letter stating the dog is too old when he's not?

I don't think you are going to get what you are looking for here.

Good luck to your friends dog. He's going to need it.

Stacer
October 25th, 2007, 09:07 PM
The increased eating and laziness that comes along are things that aren't wanted.

In my opinion these are not valid reasons for not having a dog neutered.

Both of these issue are completely controlled by the pet owner. YOU decide how much and when the dog eats, YOU take the dog for long walks and play time and make sure he gets enough activity. If you don't have the capacity to do those things for your pet, perhaps pet ownership isn't for you. No? (or your friend)

luckypenny
October 25th, 2007, 09:37 PM
...now the vasectomy is that the same or some thing different?

Same thing in the sense that the dog is sterilized. Different in that the testicles are not removed, but the vas deferens is cut, which in turn stops the sperm from passing through. The surgery is less invasive (same as for a human male) yet no behavioral changes occur because the hormone production of the testicles are not affected.

I guess one could use the argument that when human males choose to become sterile, they undergo a vasectomy, not castration :eek: (sorry guys :D). Why not the same for dogs and other animals?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for sterilization, but if the OP's friend is determined to not have his dog castrated, a vasectomy is probably his best option given he doesn't have many :shrug:.

Attached is a diagram of a stallion's reproductive tract (couldn't find one detailed enough of a male dog). Letter Q in the diagram is the vas deferens.

white wrabbit
October 25th, 2007, 11:03 PM
Thank you Luckypenny!!! i am going to keep this in mind for the next boy i adopt.. may be several years but i will remember it.. wish i would of know this for old blue dog. might of spared us from a lot of clean up problems..

clm
October 25th, 2007, 11:48 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=2326799

All of the 'positive' changes ie decrease in hypersexuality, gentleness aren't incentive, because the dog is already well behaved and gentle.
The increased eating and laziness that comes along are things that aren't wanted.



There are a couple of positive changes you don't define in your "all". Elimination of the rist of testicular cancer (which by the way has to be caught early enough to be treatable), no risk of the dog running off after a female in heat and probably the main one here which unfortunately because of the Pit Bull Legislation, the saving of your friends dogs life.
I've had males fixed at 9months and 9 years, never have I experienced behavioral or medical problems. Maybe I've been lucky, maybe I just have a good vet and more mentally stable dogs.

Increased eating and laziness I haven't seen in any of my animals either, male or female. You have to be dedicated to exercising your animals, cats or dogs. Some are predisposed to weight issues, just like people, you have to work at keeping the weight down for those pets.

Too many people listen to and read too much false information on neutering and spaying and tend to see only what they want to see. Talk to a vet about it or get some info from somewhere like the University of Guelph on it before you talk yourself out of a safe procedure that will mean your friends pit bull will be safe from being put to sleep.

You can get upset with us all you want, but that's not going to save the dog and that's what we're concerned about here. The welfare of the dog.

Cindy

jesse's mommy
October 25th, 2007, 11:52 PM
My childhood dog was neutered at 9 1/2 years old. We didn't have any changes in him and he lived a wonderful loving life until he was 18. And yes, he was a big dog. He was a lab/mix, probably very comparable to your friends pitbull.

Our current dog is a pitbull and we had her spayed at 6 months and there were no changes with her personality when we had it done. She is still hyper as anything and even more loving than before.

There is nothing but positive things to spaying and neutering your pet.

CyberKitten
October 26th, 2007, 12:56 AM
I have NEVER in all my life heard of any horror stories of an older dog or cat being neutered or spayed. Unless it is something unusual - which can occur at any age - and that is an infinitesimal likelihood, ie not at all probable.

bendyfoot
October 26th, 2007, 02:23 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=2326799
The increased eating and laziness that comes along are things that aren't wanted.


Your reference doesn't support your argument that agression is a potential concern. Many other factors could have been the source of the aggression exhibited in your neighbour's dog. You are MORE likely to see aggressive behaviour in an intact male dog than a neutered one.

As for the increased eating and laziness.... how hard is it to regulate the dog's food/caloric intake??? All of my pets are given a specific amount of food every day that is appropriate for their level of activity and I monitor their body condition regularly to ensure that they are neither under nor overweight, and adjust their food rations accordingly. If the dog gets lazy, take it for a walk...

there is NO reason for a dog that is not a registered purebred who is part of an ethical breeding program to be unneutered. You're just asking for trouble.

The article you cited also concludes that any behavioural changes are more the result of the dog's environment, the owner's behaviour and time dedicated to the pet, obedience training etc. and NOT attributable to the neutering itself.

Stacer
October 26th, 2007, 05:49 PM
I think the OP has abandoned this thread. They didn't hear what they wanted to hear.

mummummum
October 27th, 2007, 05:21 PM
I think you're right Stacer. I ~ as I am sure most everyone is ~ am shocked that this is even up for discussion. :sad:

Annienmyst
October 27th, 2007, 09:57 PM
I know this will cause a big controversy. But I think its really niave to say that any procedure has NO side effects. Everything has side effects. I really think flat out advice that you MUST spay or neuter is a mistake. I was always a little uncomfortable with the way people are attacked for not "fixing" their animals........


Today, I was reading a report on NAIA about the negative effects of spaying neutering. Its was done by a researcher at Rutgers University.

I was surprized to learn that neutering a large breed animal before the age of 1 affects their growth. Also, things that I thought I knew about neutering may be in question..such as a link between diabetes and neutering (I have a friend with a diabetic dog and its no fun for her or the dog.)

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Which is not to say, I don't agree with spaying or neutering. Just be informed.

jiorji
October 27th, 2007, 10:55 PM
Any mod can feel free to close this topic as people keep trying to force their beliefs on me and are being clearly no help. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned his breed...

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

this has NOTHING to do with the breed! Many of our members are openly loving Pitt owners.

erykah1310
October 28th, 2007, 11:16 AM
I have seen this post on other forums too, all of which has the same basic outcome as this one.
However, considering this dog is in Ontario, the odds of the OP getting a "doctors note" stating the dog cant be neutered is slim to none, come on, its the dog hating province after all....
Either way, Animal control is awaiting some form of answer regarding this neuter and fines will surely be issued if not complied with as well as possible removal of the dog ( which sadly would most likely be destroyed:sad:) that alone would cause the majority of us to rush and get the neuter to comply...

honestly I too have had some older dogs neutered, older cats you name it. Look at Bailey, he was neutered shortly before his arrival here ( he was supposed to be 4 ish... well if any one remembers, he is more like 10-12, and he is just fine, still an aggressive little :censored: but Cockers do tend to have that little issue to begin with)