Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Puppy Diarrhea

Dipsy600
October 18th, 2007, 09:15 PM
I know it says on this Fourm ď* if your pet has Diarrhea seek vet careĒ trust me I have! Hereís my story:

Diesel is my Merel Great Dane Puppy. He is currently 6 months old and is so smart, heís my life! Heís a cutie. After about 1 month I have had constant health issues with him and no one seems to know whatís wrong. We havenít taken huge steps at the vet (biopsies, extensive tests, etc.) yet but we were trying to test for other things before taking those big steps (maybe allergies, Giardia, some sort of Bacteria, etc.). Well, itís been months now and the issues persist and I thought Iíd get other opinions to see if anyone has any suggestions before I put him through more stress with tests.

Hereís a timeline of things I can think of that might help:
4/29/07: Born
4/29/07 - 6/25/07: Feed a Raw Diet (no problems)
6/26/07: I receive him (8 weeks)
6/26/07: Feeding Canidae Adult Giant Breed kibble food. (2 cups a day)
6/27/07: Vet Visit- 1st- Parvo & Distemper, De-worming, Fecal Float/test
7/27/07: Vet Visit- 2nd- Parvo & Distemper, 1st- Bordetella, Interceptor (Heart Worm)
8/01/07: Diarrhea Starts (estimated- donít know exact date)
8/14/07: Tried 10 days of Amber Technology Parvaid & Vibactra Plus (Natural supplement supposed to help with Giardia or bacterial infections) Ė Didnít work
8/24/07: Switched food. Now using Natureís Recipe Adult Giant Breed kibble food (noticed a small change first 3 days, but than back to Diarrhea) (16 weeks - 4 cups a day)
8/28/07: Vet Visit- 2nd- Bordetella, 3rd- Parvo & Distemper, Interceptor (Heart Worm), Test- Parasite Screening/Giardia (Negative)
9/07/07: Started using Nzymes; ox-e-drops, Antioxidant treats & Bac-Pac Plus supplements. Ė Have not seen any change due to these but continue to use them.
9/15/07: Vet visit- Started taking prescribed drugs: Amoxi tabs (qty. 14 & 200 mg) & Metronidazole tabs (qty. 14 & 500mg) Ė Saw a change towards the end of the pill cycle, stools firmed up a bit, but once pills were complete back to Diarrhea.
9/27/07: Switched food. Now using IVD- Innovative Veterinary Diets Kibble food. (Ingredients: Duck & Potato only, checking for allergies) WORKED!! Right away! Stools firmed up. (5 months- 7 cups a day)
10/12/07: Diarrhea is back!
10/15/07: Took Cow hoof away (has had these for quite some time now, but heard they can carry bacteria) Ė No change since taking them away, worse.

I notice that his stomach growls & gurgles loudly after eating. He also has bad gas. Some days he will have no energy and acts Ďdown', maybe due to being sick. I donít give any table scraps. I also donít give any treats anymore. We don't have any house plants he can get into and outside i keep an eye on him all he chews on are sticks. When he has Diarrhea itís bad and often, I feel horrible for the little guy. He looks good, nice and lean, healthy. I donít know what to do. I guess the next step is extensive tests to see if thereís something Ďbuiltí wrong internally. If you have any idea what might be wrong with my baby, please let me know. Thanks so much,
Becky

*Attached is a picture of him at puppy graduation. :)

luckypenny
October 18th, 2007, 09:33 PM
Welcome to the forum Dipsy600 :) .

Several things come to mind when reading your post. 1st, how many stool samples have you taken into your vet to analyze? Sometimes 1 isn't enough to test for certain parasites such as Giardia. How many times per day are you feeding your pup? If he's gassy, I would recommend feeding him smaller portions, perhaps 4-5 times a day to start and gradually bringing it down to 3 times as he gets better. You may also want to reduce the amount you are feeding him by 1/2 to 1 cup per day. An overfed pup will have diarhea. Do not give him water immediately before, during, or after his meals. He should also rest at least 1 1/2 - 2 hours after meals to prevent bloat (Danes are susceptible to this).

May I ask why you didn't continue with the raw feeding your breeder started with? Done properly, it may actually be what's best for your particular pup. Have you contacted her/him for info/advice?

Edited to add: OMG, he's adorable!!!:lovestruck:

the gang
October 18th, 2007, 09:45 PM
can you send me a private mess i have friends that wrk great dane rescue maby they can help brenda and the pins

mummummum
October 19th, 2007, 12:16 AM
I'll come back to this tomorrow (I'm starting to seriously nod...) but one of the outcomes of vaccinosis are autoimmune diseases such as irritable bowel disorders.

Of course, it may not be as serious as all that ~ it could easily be a parasite. With their various life cycles you could get a few negative tests in a row before you "catch" it just as the parasite is shedding.

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 12:29 AM
I have only tried one stool sample. Next time i go in Iíll make sure we do another! Also, i feed 3 times a day 2 1/2 cups.

I didn't continue on the raw diet due to the fact that it's not something that i felt could fit into my life style, time(prep), a big freezer and it's expensive. Also if i figured if i needed someone to watch him if i were out of town it would be difficult for them. I know all that seems silly but if i must i will....at this point i'll do anything. But the thing is, the most recent food is just duck and potato, so it makes me wonder it the raw diet would have any effect. I guess i need to start learning about how to do it, so i can try it.

I tried the lowering of the amount of food and there was no change. And my vet advised against it. Sometime i wonder if i like my vets opinion on things or not... but that's another story.



Welcome to the forum Dipsy600 :) .

Several things come to mind when reading your post. 1st, how many stool samples have you taken into your vet to analyze? Sometimes 1 isn't enough to test for certain parasites such as Giardia. How many times per day are you feeding your pup? If he's gassy, I would recommend feeding him smaller portions, perhaps 4-5 times a day to start and gradually bringing it down to 3 times as he gets better. You may also want to reduce the amount you are feeding him by 1/2 to 1 cup per day. An overfed pup will have diarhea. Do not give him water immediately before, during, or after his meals. He should also rest at least 1 1/2 - 2 hours after meals to prevent bloat (Danes are susceptible to this).

May I ask why you didn't continue with the raw feeding your breeder started with? Done properly, it may actually be what's best for your particular pup. Have you contacted her/him for info/advice?

Edited to add: OMG, he's adorable!!!:lovestruck:

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 12:33 AM
*** I forgot to mention a few things. The other day he threw up at 6am. And then tonight at 9:30pm he threw up again. He obviously wasn't feeling good, you could see it in his body language.

***Also, he makes this weird noise sometimes. Like a cough almost...like he swallowed water down the wrong pipe and he's coughing. But it's not when he drinks. It's only randomly, usually right when he wakes up. But he did it a couple times during the day today. Kennel Cough maybe?

Man....he has problems.

luckypenny
October 19th, 2007, 12:36 AM
Definitely try another stool sample, the fresher, the better.

And don't feel bad for not continuing the raw, I was just curious as to why. It's not for everyone and that's ok.

How about if you split the 5 cups of food into 3 meals. Might be easier on his tummy.

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 12:41 AM
I feed 7 1/2 cups 3 times a day...i feel like if i dropped it to 5 cups he would starve...he acts like 7 1/2 isn't enough.

Btw, thanks for your responsesÖI feel like Iím not alone with this anymore. :(
Definitely try another stool sample, the fresher, the better.

And don't feel bad for not continuing the raw, I was just curious as to why. It's not for everyone and that's ok.

How about if you split the 5 cups of food into 3 meals. Might be easier on his tummy.

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 12:43 AM
What? you lost me? help with brenda and the pins?

can you send me a private mess i have friends that wrk great dane rescue maby they can help brenda and the pins

luckypenny
October 19th, 2007, 12:50 AM
I feed 7 1/2 cups 3 times a day...i feel like if i dropped it to 5 cups he would starve...he acts like 7 1/2 isn't enough.

:o I'm sorry, I misread your post. I thought I read you feed him 2x per day. When Mummummum checks in tomorrow, she'll have a wealth of extra info for you.

By the way, you mentioned hooves...do you ever give him rawhide bones to chew on?

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 12:58 AM
I have never given rawhide, Iíve heard they are horrible. I've given only a few treats in his lifetime, only 3 treat bone thingys and a few handfuls of random treats here and there and that's it because Iíve read so much about Danes and their iffy digestive systems. So Iíve always been careful. I'm that person that researched for months before finding a breeder, the researched for months about owning and caring for a Dane and Iím so sad that after all that meticulous obsessive research I have a poor little sick Dane. I feel so helpless and like a horrible mom. But it's out of my hands right now and it's so frustrating!

I'm very excited for Mummummum's info, anything is great!

:o I'm sorry, I misread your post. I thought I read you feed him 2x per day. When Mummummum checks in tomorrow, she'll have a wealth of extra info for you.

By the way, you mentioned hooves...do you ever give him rawhide bones to chew on?

luckypenny
October 19th, 2007, 12:58 AM
In addition, re. the stool sample. Most vets will accept stool samples for analysis even if your dog isn't present. Just a bit of cost-saving info for you.

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 01:08 AM
Smart thinking! I'll do that! Cuz i have a feeling things are going to get even more expensive real soon...as if they weren't already :) Anything for my baby!

In addition, re. the stool sample. Most vets will accept stool samples for analysis even if your dog isn't present. Just a bit of cost-saving info for you.

luckypenny
October 19th, 2007, 01:11 AM
...I'm that person that researched for months before finding a breeder, the researched for months about owning and caring for a Dane...

:thumbs up

And :fingerscr you find some solutions to his problems real soon.

rainbow
October 19th, 2007, 02:00 AM
First of all, welcome to pets.ca :thumbs up and, Diesel is one good looking puppy. :lovestruck:

If he was doing good on raw feeding, but you aren't comfortable with it, I would put him on a grain free kibble. My dogs are on Orijen and it is my favourite:

www.championpetfoods.com

There are others like Innova EVO (www.naturapet.com) and Go Natural Grain Free (www.petcurean.com).

Also, large breed dogs sometimes take longer for their digestive systems to mature. It may help if you add some plain organic yogurt to his kibble. If that doesn't help then some prebiotics/probiotics or digestive enzymes.

rainbow
October 19th, 2007, 02:09 AM
What? you lost me? help with brenda and the pins?


I think Brenda meant to post like this:

can you send me a private mess i have friends that wrk great dane rescue maby they can help.


brenda and the pins

The "brenda and the pins" is her signature.

Winston
October 19th, 2007, 06:55 AM
Oh boy this sounds like my boy all over again! Exact things symptom wise! He was checked for every parasite, giardia, he ended up taking metronadizole (not usre of spelling!) along with another anitbiotic and still didnt take it away. The gurgling of his belly used to really bother me for some reason. He would throw up bile! or just do the gagging cough thing. I changed from vet prescribed gastro food over to Orijen and honestly...no more problems at all...I think it was corn...not sure though..the difference with the Orijen is no, no gluten and no by products...an it is 75% meat 25 % fruit & veggies... I also used the holistic eaglepack food transition powder for about 2 weeks to help his tummy change over...

Oh! and his poops are absolutely perfect! :laughing:

Maybe you could give it a try? Your boy is gorgeous by the way! I had a similiar puppy in Winston's obediance class like yours . his name was Earl...he was hilarious doing recalls! he would have to apply the brakes way earlier than most dogs!

Cindy

Chicklet
October 19th, 2007, 07:59 AM
Some puppies don't react good to vaccinations and can have minor to serious complications throughout there lives as a direct result of it.

Puppies aren't the only ones, People to, My son was one of those unfortunate ones.

on another note,
heres a artical concerning different possible causes of Dog Diarrhea
http://www.masteryourdog.com/Dog_Diarrhea.html

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 10:40 AM
Thanks so much for the response! but actually we are on a duck and potato food right now that is just Duck and Potato, nothing else so i don't think a different food is the option he needs but i will defiantly look into it right now. i mean i guess i should try anything at this point! :( it's so confusing!

Also we are on Nzymes which are probotics, and i haven't seen any change. We haven't tried the yogurt thing because i was afraid to mess with his food intake.


First of all, welcome to pets.ca :thumbs up and, Diesel is one good looking puppy. :lovestruck:

If he was doing good on raw feeding, but you aren't comfortable with it, I would put him on a grain free kibble. My dogs are on Orijen and it is my favourite:

www.championpetfoods.com

There are others like Innova EVO (www.naturapet.com) and Go Natural Grain Free (www.petcurean.com).

Also, large breed dogs sometimes take longer for their digestive systems to mature. It may help if you add some plain organic yogurt to his kibble. If that doesn't help then some prebiotics/probiotics or digestive enzymes.

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 10:54 AM
huh, never heard of that food. But if it worked on your dog and he had the same symptoms as my little guy than i might as well try it. It's strange though because the food we're on has only duck and potato, no other ingredients and it worked for 17 days! So why would it all of a sudden work right away and then after 17 days quit? weird. It has no Gluten but it does have duck by products, so i dunno. I'm starting to think it's something extreme internally that can't be fixed with food like leaky gut or irritable bowel. gosh!

Oh boy this sounds like my boy all over again! Exact things symptom wise! He was checked for every parasite, giardia, he ended up taking metronadizole (not usre of spelling!) along with another anitbiotic and still didnt take it away. The gurgling of his belly used to really bother me for some reason. He would throw up bile! or just do the gagging cough thing. I changed from vet prescribed gastro food over to Orijen and honestly...no more problems at all...I think it was corn...not sure though..the difference with the Orijen is no, no gluten and no by products...an it is 75% meat 25 % fruit & veggies... I also used the holistic eaglepack food transition powder for about 2 weeks to help his tummy change over...

Oh! and his poops are absolutely perfect! :laughing:

Maybe you could give it a try? Your boy is gorgeous by the way! I had a similiar puppy in Winston's obediance class like yours . his name was Earl...he was hilarious doing recalls! he would have to apply the brakes way earlier than most dogs!

Cindy

mika140
October 19th, 2007, 10:59 AM
I'm not an expert on this stuff, but very curious and trying to learn fast :D

So...I looked up the kibble you said your dog is on. This is for the Innovative Veterinary Diets kibble, duck & potato (made by Royal Canin). Thought maybe it could help some of the other more knowledgable people on the forum:

Ingredients:
Dehydrated potatoes, duck, duck meal, potato fiber, canola oil (preserved with tocopherols, rosemary extract and citric acid), natural flavor, dicalcium phosphate, L-lysine, sodium chloride, salmon oil, evening primrose oil, DL-methionine, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, inositol, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, beta carotene, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), minerals (zinc oxide, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, iron proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite).

Here are the ingredients for the canned version, just in case you're adding some of that as well:

Ingredients:
Potatoes, duck, duck stock, duck by-products, canola oil (preserved with tocopherols, rosemary extract and citric acid), calcium sulfate, sodium tripolyphosphate, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, inositol, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, beta carotene, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), sodium chloride, salmon oil, evening primrose oil, minerals (zinc oxide, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, iron proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite).


Just from what I've learned so far....it doesn't seem like this diet is any better as far as fewer ingredients than the premium dry kibbles out there (Orijen, EVO, Solid Gold BATM, etc.). I don't see any real bad ingredients, other than menadione, which shouldn't really be included (and by-products, but they're only in the canned version).

If you do decide to look into food options more, here's another site that can help specifically with dog food:


http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=grading_kibble
http://www.ourdogsonline.com/

mika140
October 19th, 2007, 11:00 AM
If you are going to try the Orijen, I'd go with the 6 fresh fish formula (as it is grain free and doesn't have chicken or other protein sources that might be an issue for your dog).

I've also read on another post about a dog that was intolerant to proteins....if he was put on a novel protein he'd do well for a while, then become intolerant, switch foods, do well, become intolerant.....and it went on and on....I'll try to find the post in case you switch to another protein with the same results.

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 11:20 AM
So i looked into the Orijen Dog food, sounds great, looks like quality food. Too bad i have to get it shipped to me in Idaho from California, that's just one more big expense, along with the food being $48 for 29. lb bag, we goes through that in 14 days! golly. But another concern i have is Iíve been told by several Dane breeders and owners to feed no greater than 24% protein and fat levels between 14% and 14%. My vet on the other hand (who disagrees with all my Dane information) says that's silly, but he also says i should neuter at 6 months and give rabies shot with other shots at 6 months. I want to wait for 1 year for both of those.

Anywho, the levels of Orijen are: Protein 42.00%; Fat 16.00%. The Protein is so high, it worries me!

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 11:23 AM
Oh my goodness Protein intolerant!?!?! That's not good, what do you do about that? Yes i'd love to see the post if you can find it. Thank you very much.

If you are going to try the Orijen, I'd go with the 6 fresh fish formula (as it is grain free and doesn't have chicken or other protein sources that might be an issue for your dog).

I've also read on another post about a dog that was intolerant to proteins....if he was put on a novel protein he'd do well for a while, then become intolerant, switch foods, do well, become intolerant.....and it went on and on....I'll try to find the post in case you switch to another protein with the same results.

Winston
October 19th, 2007, 11:24 AM
All I can say is it worked for me! and I tried Duck and Potato too...worked only for short period...and then back to the gas, sores, itchies etc...

Best of Luck
Cindy

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 11:44 AM
Wow thanks for your interest and response! I checked out the other Blog site, thanks
I'm not an expert on this stuff, but very curious and trying to learn fast :D

So...I looked up the kibble you said your dog is on. This is for the Innovative Veterinary Diets kibble, duck & potato (made by Royal Canin). Thought maybe it could help some of the other more knowledgable people on the forum:

Ingredients:
Dehydrated potatoes, duck, duck meal, potato fiber, canola oil (preserved with tocopherols, rosemary extract and citric acid), natural flavor, dicalcium phosphate, L-lysine, sodium chloride, salmon oil, evening primrose oil, DL-methionine, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, inositol, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, beta carotene, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), minerals (zinc oxide, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, iron proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite).

Here are the ingredients for the canned version, just in case you're adding some of that as well:

Ingredients:
Potatoes, duck, duck stock, duck by-products, canola oil (preserved with tocopherols, rosemary extract and citric acid), calcium sulfate, sodium tripolyphosphate, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, inositol, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, beta carotene, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), sodium chloride, salmon oil, evening primrose oil, minerals (zinc oxide, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, iron proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite).


Just from what I've learned so far....it doesn't seem like this diet is any better as far as fewer ingredients than the premium dry kibbles out there (Orijen, EVO, Solid Gold BATM, etc.). I don't see any real bad ingredients, other than menadione, which shouldn't really be included (and by-products, but they're only in the canned version).

If you do decide to look into food options more, here's another site that can help specifically with dog food:


http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=grading_kibble
http://www.ourdogsonline.com/

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 11:46 AM
Well, thanks so much for the suggestion.... i'm defiantly considering it as we speak!
All I can say is it worked for me! and I tried Duck and Potato too...worked only for short period...and then back to the gas, sores, itchies etc...

Best of Luck
Cindy

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 01:39 PM
A lot of you have been asking why I didn't just do the Raw Diet when i got him. I was a little worried about doing and being able to do it, $ wise and time wise. I don't have a meat grinder, a big freezer and I just didn't feel like it would fit my life style. But I told myself if it came down to it and i needed to do it i would. Well it's become apparent that it's time to try the raw diet. This will tell me for sure if it's a food thing Diesel is dealing with or an internal thing like Irritable bowel or leaky gut.

So, i haven't done any research on Raw Diets but i did talk to my Breeder who does do a raw diet and suggested i check out the Yahoo Groups on Raw Diets. Also to check out Dogwise.com and a book called 'Ultimate Diet; Natural Nutrition for your Dogs & Cats' By, Kymythy Chultze. So Iím going to check these things out but if anyone else has any suggestions about starting a raw diet for a Great Dane please let me know. I'm very nervous and anxious for this huge lifestyle change. I pray it works!

pitgrrl
October 19th, 2007, 01:59 PM
Could you try a pre-made raw diet, like Bravo, Nature's Variety or Oma's Pride to buy you some time in terms of research and getting used to feeding raw?

I have a dog with all sorts of bizarre digestive problems which did get much, much better once he was switched to a raw diet. I use a combo of 2 pre-made foods basically because I really don't have the time to or space to do it all myself. It's certainly on the expensive side, but maybe as a temporary measure it's worth a shot?

satchelp
October 19th, 2007, 08:24 PM
Perhaps he should be tested for EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency) which can occur in Great Danes. This would cause him not to absorbe enough of the food you are giving him and would cause diarrhea due to malabsorption of fats.

Dipsy600
October 19th, 2007, 10:13 PM
Thanks for the advice, it this change in raw diet doesn't work i will for sure have a test done for that.

Perhaps he should be tested for EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency) which can occur in Great Danes. This would cause him not to absorbe enough of the food you are giving him and would cause diarrhea due to malabsorption of fats.

jesse's mommy
October 19th, 2007, 10:21 PM
I'm not sure if this helps or not, but I know my dog has an intolerance to duck. It's actually a very rich meat and she couldn't handle it. I finally put two and two together and realized that every time I gave her food that had duck as part of the ingredients she would either throw it up or have diarrhea. So I'm wondering if maybe your dog may have an intolerance as well. We feed Jesse Merrick. We give her grammy's pot pie for the dry food and we rotate the canned food for her. Once we took the turducken and the french country cafe, it's been fine. Good luck.

mummummum
October 19th, 2007, 10:41 PM
I'll try to find the post in case you switch to another protein with the same results.

This is the thread I think you are looking for:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=45652

Now that I'm slightly less sleepy, I can think about my vaccinosis theory. I'm going to go surf for a sec to see if I can find a 1999 (?) study done at Purdue which used GD's and looked the use multivalent vaccines, vaccine protocols and autoimmune and immune mediated disorders.

edited to add: Yup, I'd also think along the lines of EPI as a possible explanation for the diarrhea.

mika140
October 20th, 2007, 12:06 AM
That was exactly the thread I was thinking about......I knew I had read it somewhere and wasn't going crazy :crazy: Good work!

mummummum
October 20th, 2007, 12:51 AM
Some thoughts...
Some breeds of dogs have very fragile immune systems. As such they may be genetically predisposed to being susceptible to autoimmune and immune-mediated disorders.

When a Live, Modified Live or Killed vaccine, is introduced into the body, the body reacts by creating antibodies which upon future exposure to the virus, remember and either teach the body to tolerate the virus or to attack these pathogens. What this study
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/purdue_vaccine_study_gdca.htm
says is that vaccines may be altering the immune system of dogs by creating autoantibodies. Where antibodies attack foreign proteins or substances, autoantibodies attack the bodies' own proteins.

When a vaccine is introduced, the body reacts by protecting itself with inflammation against the foreign substance. There is some thinking that the pathogens are actually causing the inflammation in order to hide inside the body and thus prevent the development of antibodies. And where autoantibodies have formed, they cause inflammation as they attack organs and tissue.

There is significant thought that bowel diseases like Inflammatory Bowel Disease are an immune-mediated disorder. IBD is essentially an inflammation of the intestines and occurs when cells involved in inflammation and the bodies' immune response are called into the GI tract, which is everything that connects the mouth to the anus. An overactive immune system, or one that is negatively changed with the inclusion of autoantibodies will cause inflammation more frequently and more severely.

So when a dog born with a fragile immune system is exposed to the huge antigen overload in multivalent (combo) vaccines, the immune system is either completely overwhelmed or is susceptible to developing autoantibodies which in turn may predispose them to autoimmune and immune-mediated diseases like IBD.

Dipsy600
October 20th, 2007, 01:20 AM
Just for the info here's what Iíve done for the Bland Diet:

I figured out how many calories he was taking in from his kibble: 324 calories a cup x 7.5 cups a day = 2,430 calories a day divided by 3 (fed 3 times a day) = 810 calories per meal.

So i gave him 2 cups cooked white rice (640 calories)
2 1/2 eggs (175 calories)
1/3 cup Low Sodium Chicken Broth (5 Calories)
Total calories= 820 Calories (a little over, oh well)

He was a little weirded out at first...where is the kibble?...but then he scarfed it down. I'll let you all know the results after a few days.

Also, after 4-5 days Iím going to add some Pumpkin & boneless skinless broiled chicken breast.

Question: anyone know about adding Pedilite to his meals? My Breeder said she does when her Danes are throwing up or have diarrhea, any thoughts on that?

mummummum
October 20th, 2007, 01:43 AM
Gee, only 2430 ? Seems awfully low in calories for a large breed pup of his size.

Pedialyte is fine. You might have to give it to him with a big needle-less syringe as it's orange-flavoured, slightly metallic and sweet tasting ~ not all dogs like it.

I would add Slippery Elm or canned pure pumpkin (not the pie kind) or psyllium NOW to help firm up his stools rather than 4-5 days from now. Diarrhea, like vomitting can become an automatic response in the body if it goes on long enough ~ you need to "re-set" his bowels.

Dipsy600
October 20th, 2007, 02:56 PM
you think 2430 Calories is too low? He was eating 7.5 cups, that's about average for this age. Maybe i'll a couple hundred more calories. He looks good, lean.

I think i'm going to wait on the Pedialyte. But i will add the pumpkin tonight at dinner.

He really has enjoyed this bland meal, he scarfs it up. lol, he'll eat anything though. :)
Gee, only 2430 ? Seems awfully low in calories for a large breed pup of his size.

Pedialyte is fine. You might have to give it to him with a big needle-less syringe as it's orange-flavoured, slightly metallic and sweet tasting ~ not all dogs like it.

I would add Slippery Elm or canned pure pumpkin (not the pie kind) or psyllium NOW to help firm up his stools rather than 4-5 days from now. Diarrhea, like vomitting can become an automatic response in the body if it goes on long enough ~ you need to "re-set" his bowels.

Dipsy600
October 20th, 2007, 03:00 PM
This information is useful but very scary! And to think....i almost didn't vacinate! And if this is the case and going to be heart broken. I don't want to do any of his yearly boosters, and really i'd rather not do the rabies vaccine.

I guess we'll see if his body hates the raw diet...if so than apparently his body hate's protiens. Then i have to get him on hydrolyzed protein food? I'm just preying that this will work.
Some thoughts...
Some breeds of dogs have very fragile immune systems. As such they may be genetically predisposed to being susceptible to autoimmune and immune-mediated disorders.

When a Live, Modified Live or Killed vaccine, is introduced into the body, the body reacts by creating antibodies which upon future exposure to the virus, remember and either teach the body to tolerate the virus or to attack these pathogens. What this study
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/purdue_vaccine_study_gdca.htm
says is that vaccines may be altering the immune system of dogs by creating autoantibodies. Where antibodies attack foreign proteins or substances, autoantibodies attack the bodies' own proteins.

When a vaccine is introduced, the body reacts by protecting itself with inflammation against the foreign substance. There is some thinking that the pathogens are actually causing the inflammation in order to hide inside the body and thus prevent the development of antibodies. And where autoantibodies have formed, they cause inflammation as they attack organs and tissue.

There is significant thought that bowel diseases like Inflammatory Bowel Disease are an immune-mediated disorder. IBD is essentially an inflammation of the intestines and occurs when cells involved in inflammation and the bodies' immune response are called into the GI tract, which is everything that connects the mouth to the anus. An overactive immune system, or one that is negatively changed with the inclusion of autoantibodies will cause inflammation more frequently and more severely.

So when a dog born with a fragile immune system is exposed to the huge antigen overload in multivalent (combo) vaccines, the immune system is either completely overwhelmed or is susceptible to developing autoantibodies which in turn may predispose them to autoimmune and immune-mediated diseases like IBD.

Dipsy600
October 20th, 2007, 03:02 PM
Thanks for this thread, it gives a little insite into what might be happening. I pray that this isn't the case, but i guess in time things hopefully will become clearer and i might have an idea of what's going on.
[QUOTE=mummummum;491768]This is the thread I think you are looking for:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=45652

Now that I'm slightly less sleepy, I can think about my vaccinosis theory. I'm going to go surf for a sec to see if I can find a 1999 (?) study done at Purdue which used GD's and looked the use multivalent vaccines, vaccine protocols and autoimmune and immune mediated disorders.

[QUOTE]

mummummum
October 20th, 2007, 07:24 PM
You're most welcome Dipsy. But I wouldn't discount parasites or other physical reasons for the diarrhea.

A good diet is critical to health and healing ~ a strong immune system is probably the greatest disease-fighting tool one can have. In addition to the pumpkin/Slippery Elm/psyllium I should have also suggested a probiotic to re-introduce healthy gut flora. I use Bio-K but there are lots out there on the market. When your dog is healthy, you can use plain yoghurt but in times of gut stress I prefer something with a heavier bacteria count.

luckypenny
October 20th, 2007, 08:25 PM
You're most welcome Dipsy. But I wouldn't discount parasites or other physical reasons for the diarrhea....

I agree. Have you had a chance to bring in a stool sample for analysis?

Dipsy600
October 21st, 2007, 11:41 AM
Not yet, i might be able to tomorrow. I called my vet 3 days ago and he still hasn't called me back. I don't know if i like the guy but this is the second one i've been to and i hate the process of finding a new one when the chances are that i won't end up with a 'good' one.

Say it ends up being a parasite, what happens next? We did take a round of pills a while back [Amoxi tabs (qty. 14 & 200 mg) & Metronidazole tabs (qty. 14 & 500mg)], wouldn't those have killed off the bug if it was there or were those not for that purpose?

Also.... is it ok that i pre make his Bland Food and don't re-heat it when i give it to him? He eats it cold or hot, but just wondering if it should be warm or not. Sorry, might be a silly question.

I agree. Have you had a chance to bring in a stool sample for analysis?

TeriM
October 21st, 2007, 03:44 PM
The meal can easily be served hot or cold. I would suggest adding some protien to the meal (ie chicken breast or cooked ground beef that has been rinsed with hot water to eliminate the grease).

Good luck :goodvibes:.

TeriM
October 21st, 2007, 03:57 PM
Natures Recipe: Chicken meal, Oatmeal, Pearled Barley, Brown Rice, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Chicken, Fat Product (natural source of DHA), Tomato Pomace, Dried Brewers Yeast, Animal Digest, Salt, Chicory Root, Potassium Chloride, Alfalfa Nutrient Concentrate, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C .......

Canidae: Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract .....

I would also like to comment that all of the foods that you have tried have been poultry based. The duck and potatoe may have worked initially because it was new but if your dog is intolerant to poultry then I would not be surprised that it developed problems with the duck. It is interesting to note that often a dog is not allergic to the same ingredient in the raw form. My dog Riley can't eat chicken in dog foods but has no issues with it in the raw form or in the cooked human type form.

I personally think part of the problem is that it is really difficult for a dog to process 7 cups of dog food. I had a similar issue with Riley where he needed about 5-6 cups (labrador) to keep his weight ok but couldn't seem to process that much kibble. I switched to kibble (I use Orijen 6 fish) in the morning and raw at night and his poops are great now and he maintains his weight ok.

I would also consider looking at a kibble that has a much higher calorie content. The Orijen 6 fish formula has 483 calories per cup so you would need to feed less.

mummummum
October 21st, 2007, 06:01 PM
Say it ends up being a parasite, what happens next? We did take a round of pills a while back [Amoxi tabs (qty. 14 & 200 mg) & Metronidazole tabs (qty. 14 & 500mg)], wouldn't those have killed off the bug if it was there or were those not for that purpose?

Giardiasis for instance can be persistent over many months particularly when rigorous home hygiene and sanitation measures are not taken, the dog continually re-infects because of it's environment. Also, the protozoa may not be killed off completely with one cycle of meds.

This is a good article on giardia:
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1622&articleid=739

Dipsy600
October 21st, 2007, 08:41 PM
Thanks for the information! I think i'm going to try the raw diet and see how that goes. I'd rather feed kibble form but i feel that raw is the best thing for him right now. I'm still waiting on this book i ordered on how to feed raw, i hope it comes soon so i can get reading, since i feel a little lost still. :) I'm glad to be doing the same raw plan as my breeder though because i can ask her questions when ever i need her.

Interesting thing to note... Since we've been on the bland diet (2 days) his activity level has raised so much! He is crazy! :) it's hilarious. I hope he keeps this up.

I also have another question: I'm doing training with Pet Smart and things are going really great, he's smart. But in our training we use treats, i've always just used his kibble as his treats but since we're switching over to raw, what should i do for treats? Any suggestions?

I'm sorry i have so many questions... I just want to get things right

Thanks so much all!
[QUOTE=TeriM;492349
I would also like to comment that all of the foods that you have tried have been poultry based. The duck and potatoe may have worked initially because it was new but if your dog is intolerant to poultry then I would not be surprised that it developed problems with the duck. It is interesting to note that often a dog is not allergic to the same ingredient in the raw form. My dog Riley can't eat chicken in dog foods but has no issues with it in the raw form or in the cooked human type form.

I personally think part of the problem is that it is really difficult for a dog to process 7 cups of dog food. I had a similar issue with Riley where he needed about 5-6 cups (labrador) to keep his weight ok but couldn't seem to process that much kibble. I switched to kibble (I use Orijen 6 fish) in the morning and raw at night and his poops are great now and he maintains his weight ok.

I would also consider looking at a kibble that has a much higher calorie content. The Orijen 6 fish formula has 483 calories per cup so you would need to feed less.[/QUOTE]

satchelp
October 21st, 2007, 09:42 PM
You could try freeze-dried liver as training treats (such as Bennie Bully's).

Chicklet
October 21st, 2007, 10:31 PM
Had a medium sized mongrel dog once, All it ever got was 1 pd of fresh ground hamburg every day for its entire life, lived to be around 18 yrs and never once had to go to the vets, Lived a happy, energetic and healthy life,

Had a little chihuahua when I was about 5 yrs old, She only ever got scraps from my plate, She lived to a rip old age of 27 yrs, was my little ball of fire, Never took her to the vets in her entire life until I had to put her down :sad:.

Dipsy600
October 21st, 2007, 11:26 PM
Wow, 18 & 27. gezzz
Had a medium sized mongrel dog once, All it ever got was 1 pd of fresh ground hamburg every day for its entire life, lived to be around 18 yrs and never once had to go to the vets, Lived a happy, energetic and healthy life,

Had a little chihuahua when I was about 5 yrs old, She only ever got scraps from my plate, She lived to a rip old age of 27 yrs, was my little ball of fire, Never took her to the vets in her entire life until I had to put her down :sad:.

mummummum
October 21st, 2007, 11:30 PM
If you have a dehydrator you could make your own meat-based treats. Failing that check the recipes forum, I think I and others have put some recipes for oven-dried liver treats in there as well as some cookie recipes that use rice flour rather than wheat and white flour.

And STOP apologizing for asking questions ~ we all help each othr 'round here! ;}

Dipsy600
October 22nd, 2007, 11:08 AM
me again...

So since weíve started the Bland Diet he hasnít been drinking water! I try to make him, I give him fresh clean water and heís not drinking. Usually heís a pig and I have to make him stop drinking! So Iíve been giving him ice cubes, heíll eat those.

Also, he usually poops three times a day, more if heís having Diarrhea. Well, since weíve started the Bland Diet (three days) heís only pooped twice and those were little tiny poops. Firm and hard for him to do, like heís constipated.

He has SOOO much energy now because of this diet though. He doesnít seem sick, or in pain. So any thoughts?

pitgrrl
October 22nd, 2007, 12:16 PM
If you were feeding dry food prior to making a bland diet it's totally normal that he's not drinking nearly as much. Think about the difference in moisture content between fresh food and dry kibble.

Raw or homemade diets also tend to result in much smaller, firmer and/or less frequent stools as there isn't so much "filler" in these diets and the dog is using far more of what is going in, hence it doesn't need to come out. Unless the dog is straining or showing difficulty pooping, I personally wouldn't think there was anything to worry about.

The bland diet has meat in though, right? You're not feeding just rice?

Dipsy600
October 22nd, 2007, 12:32 PM
I can't tell if he's straining to poop, but next time he does i'll watch him more closely.

We haven't added chicken yet, but i plan on adding it tomorrow. Several people told me to wait a few days on the chicken. When i do add broiled chicken tomorrow, how much should i add?

If you were feeding dry food prior to making a bland diet it's totally normal that he's not drinking nearly as much. Think about the difference in moisture content between fresh food and dry kibble.

Raw or homemade diets also tend to result in much smaller, firmer and/or less frequent stools as there isn't so much "filler" in these diets and the dog is using far more of what is going in, hence it doesn't need to come out. Unless the dog is straining or showing difficulty pooping, I personally wouldn't think there was anything to worry about.

The bland diet has meat in though, right? You're not feeding just rice?

Frenchy
October 22nd, 2007, 12:43 PM
Hi Dipsy600 , check your pm , I sent you something that might help you.

Dipsy600
October 23rd, 2007, 06:10 PM
Today is the 4th day we've been on the Bland Diet (Per meal, 3 times a day: 3 Ĺ cups white rice, 3 scrambled eggs, 1/3 cup low sodium chicken broth & tablespoon Pumpkin). His poops have been normal/firm and not very often (only like 3 poops in 4 days). I added 1/2 cup of fried ground turkey at breakfast and at lunch today, our first meat source. Then today he had Diarrhea again! Bright green with little white pieces of something in it (maybe rice). So should I take this that turkey isn't a good option for him? Someone suggested that all my food choices before have been poultry based...should I try a beef? Or should I stay a day more on the turkey and see what happens?He also doesn't seem as active today as he has been the past 3 days.

On a lighter note...we're going to a halloween costume contest tonight, he's going as a nerd :)

luckypenny
October 23rd, 2007, 10:47 PM
10 1/2 cups of rice per day :eek: . 9 eggs? Seems like way too much IMO. Have you thoroughly researched homecooked diets? Been back to the vet yet? Perhaps it may be a good idea if you fed him a high quality, grain-free kibble until you have a better understanding of your pup's nutritional needs. It should take time and plenty of research before making such changes to his diet. I really think he needs to get another vet opinion. Kudos to you for making such an effort but, do so carefully as not to further complicate his particular issues.

rainbow
October 24th, 2007, 12:33 AM
I agree with Luckypenny....you are feeding him too much. :eek: You should not be feeding your puppy home cooked or raw until you have a thorough understanding of dogs nutritioinal needs.

Diesel is only 6 months old and you've already had him on raw, 3 different brands of kibble and home cooked meals. Not to mention all the supplements and antibiotics and the cow hooves. :eek: It's no wonder his poor little system can't handle it. :sad:

I would start feeding him Orijen Puppy Large ( http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/products/puppyLarge.aspx ) and leave all the supplements alone.

And, pleeeze....no cow hooves, rawhide, etc. Diesel is still a baby and his digestive system is still too immature to handle these type of treats. Kongs or any other hard rubber toys are much better for him to chew on. :pawprint:

Dipsy600
October 25th, 2007, 11:10 AM
Gosh, I came to this group lost and scared. I have been to two vets several times, resisted antibiotics until I felt like I couldn't, tried probotics because many Dane owners suggested, switched foods because the vet recommended it and then found this group who helped me to believe I found the light at the end of the tunnel, possibly. I was convinced to feed the raw diet and that this is the best option for my baby. So I started on the bland diet, feeding him equal amounts of calories he's been getting fed from kibble (Kibble: 324 calories a cup x 7.5 cups a day = 2,430 calories a day divided by 3 (fed 3 times a day) = 810 calories per meal. + I added a couple hundred more calories because itís about time to add more food to his dietÖhe's getting thinner) Also, he's actually getting 3 1/2 cups COOKED rice which is like 1 cup UNCOOKED rice which is 600 calories.

I don't know who to trust or listen to and I felt like this was my last option. I'm afraid to try another kibble and I think I have my mind set on doing raw, since it's supposed to be the best for him.

Thank you all for your advice but this is too difficult, everyone has different opinions and it's getting more stressful and frustrating.

Thanks

luckypenny
October 25th, 2007, 11:37 AM
Dipsy600, many of us, if not all, were at the starting point where you are at now. There is no one right diet for all dogs. If you're searching for easy answers, there are none. Research and making up your own mind based on careful and thorough study of nutritional requirements is perhaps the wisest way to go. However, what I'm suggesting is that you start out by bringing a stool sample to your vet to eliminate the fact your pup might have intestinal parasites. Then, if he doesn't, move on from there. It's my understanding that bland diets are for short term use only and, even then, just a few tablespoons at a time to help a pet recover from acute diarrhea and vomiting. A bland diet is not to be used to replace properly balanced meals.

Today is the 4th day we've been on the Bland Diet (Per meal, 3 times a day: 3 Ĺ cups white rice, 3 scrambled eggs, 1/3 cup low sodium chicken broth & tablespoon Pumpkin).

I understand this to say: 3 x 3 1/2 cups cooked rice per day = 10 1/2 cups per day which is just too much.

I think you would do more damage by experimenting with recipes than just switching him over to a grain-free high quality kibble :shrug: or a 'pre-made ready to feed raw' as already mentionned. In the meantime, do your research, whether it be home-cooked or going the raw route. When you're ready, armed with all the information you need, then make the switch.

Chicklet
October 25th, 2007, 11:47 AM
Dipsy600
who do i listen to??!!?
Gosh, I came to this group lost and scared. I have been to two vets several times, resisted antibiotics until I felt like I couldn't, tried probotics because many Dane owners suggested, switched foods because the vet recommended it and then found this group who helped me to believe I found the light at the end of the tunnel, possibly. I was convinced to feed the raw diet and that this is the best option for my baby. So I started on the bland diet, feeding him equal amounts of calories he's been getting fed from kibble (Kibble: 324 calories a cup x 7.5 cups a day = 2,430 calories a day divided by 3 (fed 3 times a day) = 810 calories per meal. + I added a couple hundred more calories because itís about time to add more food to his dietÖhe's getting thinner) Also, he's actually getting 3 1/2 cups COOKED rice which is like 1 cup UNCOOKED rice which is 600 calories.

I don't know who to trust or listen to and I felt like this was my last option. I'm afraid to try another kibble and I think I have my mind set on doing raw, since it's supposed to be the best for him.

Thank you all for your advice but this is too difficult, everyone has different opinions and it's getting more stressful and frustrating.

Thanks
You live with the Dog everyday,
You know the Dog better then anyone else here,

Each dog is independent, What works for the majority will not always work in every case,

Listen to Advice given, But once all is said and done,
Follow your own head, It will serve you the best.

I have read/heard/ cases where people (whom have never even seen the dog) Card/blast the owner out for feeding to little or to much, because they were basing it on the majority, only to be proven wrong. Had the owner listened, the dog would have suffered obesity or starvation or other serious complications.,

It's your Dog, No one knows it like you do,

Everyone here means well and we all try to help.
But after all is said and done its totall up to you what you do.

Do what you think is best.

pitgrrl
October 25th, 2007, 11:50 AM
I think GI problems can be especially frustrating for exactly the reasons you're expressing, everyone has a theory, a favorite food, a list of supplements, a list of dos and don'ts. When you're in a sort of crisis situation and trying to just get a decent stool :laughing: it can be insanely overwhelming and even detrimental to the situation to be throwing 10,000 different things at the dog at once.

The things I try to keep in mind when dealing with this type of situation (though ofcourse when you're seeing liquid poop #5000 and have 25 different things floating around your head, I think it's reasonable to just freak out a little:D)

1.the dog isn't going to die if their diet isn't perfectly balanced for a little while
1.5.it's okay to go with imperfect temporary measures while you do research and figure out a long term plan
2.you probably know your dog better than anyone on the internet, the vet, the pet food companies or the pet store
3.simpler is usually better
4.try things one at a time and be patient, they may take some time to work

All that said, I throw my recommendations in for whatever they're worth. I used a pre-made base called Essex Cottage Farms for a few years with great success (really, firm, normal stool within 24 hours of feeding it the first time). It allowed me to feed fresh, homemade food without having to worry about figuring out a balanced diet myself. I know many have problems with it because of the cost, but frankly it was worth it for me because I was in the same type of situation you are and just couldn't deal anymore.

http://www.efarms.cc/

They also make a grain-free base for raw:
http://www.urbanwolf.cc/

The other thing that helped me immensely, at a point where my one dog was doing very badly, was to contact a nutritionist/holistic medicine practitioner who came very highly recommended to me. She was great not only because she had a lot of experience with these types of conditions, but also because the pressure wasn't on me to try and very quickly do a huge amount of research and it gave me a solid plan to work with instead of all these disconnected suggestions that, although often really good, confused the h*ll outta me.

Love4himies
October 25th, 2007, 12:08 PM
I understand your frustration, I have recently gone through this with changing cat foods for an extremely picky eater.

It will take some time to get his diet just right, it is all trial and error. People on this board are extremely knowledgeable and compassionate and some have gone through the same as what you are going through now.

It sounds like your dog has an intolerance or IBD, but you need to eliminate parasites first. If you really think it is IDB, then I would eliminate grains, go to a high quality kibble, then experiment slowly with home cooked or raw diets, ensuring that your baby is getting all the nutrients he needs. I have an IBD and the most common irritant for us is grains such as wheat and corn as well as a lot of carbs/sugars. Not sure if the same applies to dogs though :shrug:. If it is IBD, then he may need prednisone, if it is an intolerance to a food, then trial and error is the way to go.

Probiotics are only good if they reach the intestines. Most are killed by stomach acid and therefore need to be specially coated so they don't breakdown by the acid. Also there are many different types of bacteria, knowing exactly which ones/combinations is quite difficult, if not impossible, to determine. Eliminating many carbs/sugars in his diet will help eliminate the bad bacteria from overpopulating in the gut.

I believe a raw diet is the best for our animals, it is what mother nature meant for them to eat, but you need to make sure he gets all his vitamins too, unless you bring him home whole rabbits/chipmunks for him to eat.

It seems you are very concerned about his calories, but since he is growing, maybe it is not as important as ensuring he is getting his nutrition :shrug:. Once again, not sure, because I do not own a dog, only cats and kittens are allowed to eat as much as they want.

Luckypenny, IMHO, has given you great straight forward advice. If you have tried poultry and have not been successful, try beef, he may have an intolerance to chicken.

Good luck and try not to get down in the dumps about this. It will take time and patience.

PS He makes a mighty cute nerd!

princess2001
October 28th, 2007, 09:00 PM
we have just brought Princess home yesterday, the owners of her had her on Kibbles so we bought the same or so we thought, now due to the water i beleive and food she has had diarrhea for one day could it pass on her own once the food is adjusted to her body and the water or should she be seen by the vet.. I know with dogs her food should not be changed but would the water give her diarrhea as well.:dog: