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Early Stage Kidney Failure in Cat

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growler~GateKeeper
September 29th, 2007, 03:04 AM
My 16 year old :cat: Duffy has just been diagnoised with early stage Kidney Failure. Two years ago she had Hyperthyroidism which was cured by Radioactive Iodine Therapy, now this :sad:. I'm looking for as much information as I can get so I would like to know if anyone has or had a cat with Kidney Failure, & if you can me some suggestions/tips.

She is currently on Evo canned with a little bit of Orijen & Evo dry mixed in, she has the dry available for snacking but isn't eating very much of it. I know the Evo will have to be switched because the phosphorus is too high, so any suggestions for a holistic low phosphorus food? The vet has suggested the prescription low protein/low phosph but I really want to stick with the natural food for as long as possible, which she is okay with as long as I understand she may need to be switched as some point.

She is drinking water both added into her canned food & on it's own.

Any suggestions for diet/food supplements?

Her Blood Urea Nitrogen & Creatinine levels are High, whereas her Platelets & Lymphocytes are Low and there is a small amount of protein in her urine sample.
Right now her Phosphorus count is right in the middle of normal & the Total Protein in her blood is also in normal range.

Anything I should be on the look out for, aside from vomiting, lots of peeing, lots of drinking?

Any suggestions/tips to keep her Kidney health as good as possible?

Thanks

(Added by growler - This is a long thread and for those that may be rushed, here is a summary post (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=748618#post748618))

rainbow
September 29th, 2007, 03:12 AM
I am really sorry to hear about Duffy and hugs to both of you. :grouphug: :grouphug:

I have never had to deal with kidney failure so have no advice to give. Perhaps you will have to home cook for her to avoid the vet foods. Have you read this website:

http://www.felinecrf.com/managd.htm

growler~GateKeeper
September 29th, 2007, 03:26 AM
I hadn't seen that one thanks Rainbow :) I've saved it to read thoughly


This is one I have been reading, which has several articles written by vets, some with information regarding protein levels in food:
http://www.felineoutreach.org/links.html

rainbow
September 29th, 2007, 03:31 AM
Another one:

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=003

rainbow
September 29th, 2007, 03:34 AM
The website you found has some good info there. :thumbs up

rainbow
September 29th, 2007, 03:37 AM
Post #4 on this forum has some links to check out as well.

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119727

growler~GateKeeper
September 29th, 2007, 03:47 AM
Thanks again Rainbow :thumbs up :grouphug:

rainbow
September 29th, 2007, 03:53 AM
There's lots of knowledgable cat people on the forum here so I'm sure you will get lots of good advice and information tomorrow. :grouphug: :fingerscr

TeriM
September 29th, 2007, 04:19 AM
Oops, sorry Growler, most of my replies on this were in the TJT :o.

sugarcatmom
September 29th, 2007, 08:20 AM
Sorry to hear about Duffy having CRF. Luckily, many cats can live years with renal issues with some good dietary and medical management. For sure the EVO is too high in phosphorous, so you might want to look at either Wellness canned or Nature's Variety. You could also ask your vet for phosphorus binders. At some point, you may want to consider giving subQ fluids, which can make a world of difference. There's a great site here on that process: http://www.weirdstuffwemake.com/weird/stuff/pets/cats/sophia/catjuice.html

And here's another website on CRF to check out: http://www.felinecrf.org/

chico2
September 29th, 2007, 08:40 AM
Growler,so sorry about Duffy,we often go in to panicmode,when our animals are sick,but it seems you have a clear head and doing your research.The Internet and this Form is a great thing,wish I'd had all the available info 25yrs ago,with my Tigger.
I am sure you'll get a handle on this and Duffy will be fine..

krdahmer
September 29th, 2007, 11:06 AM
:grouphug:My kitties are all youngins so I haven't come across kidney probs yet....I will just keep you both in my prayers! :pray:

shredy
September 30th, 2007, 01:17 AM
Growler, I am so sorry to hear about Duffy. Your words to me during Shade's illness and her death meant more to me than I can express. I wish I had some advice to give you about diets, but I can tell you that someone to look out for as well as increased DILUTED urination (caused by the kidneys inability to concentrate urine) is reduced urination which can indicate more severe renal failure and cause the buildup of nitrates in her body because of her kidneys inability to produce and excrete urine. I am somewhat familiar with kidney failure in people, but less so in animals.

I also looked at some of the websites that Rainbow posted, but found this tid bit... http://www.tarazet.com/mt/archives/002643.html it says that this drug may help to improve appetite which can be a big issue for renal failure.

Keep her eating and drinking as much as possible, if she is diuresing (massive urination) she can become dehydrated and develop electrolyte imbalances and if she is not getting enough calories she will start to breakdown muscle which is protein.

Tell you vet that you are interested in information and ask them for resources including research studies. I am happy to help you understand the scientific stuff if you don't have a medical background. Please let me knwo if there is anything I can do to help you. All the best for you and Duffy :cat: :goodvibes::goodvibes::grouphug:

growler~GateKeeper
September 30th, 2007, 04:15 AM
Thank you everyone for the good wishes :) & for all the links posted :thumbs up, some I have seen some I have not but will definately be checking each & every one

Yes Sugarcatmom I will be switching from the Evo to either the Wellness or the Nature's Variety, finding which one she likes & is lowest in phos is my next task, & I know I have to stay away from fish varieties as much as possible.

Good thing I live 2 blocks from a fabulous pet supply store cuz I just bought a case of Evo last week, as yet unopened, so no problem returning it :rolleyes:

I have found great info on comparing foods using "dry matter amounts" instead of "as fed amounts" because there is so much difference in moisture content, so this is a gives a great comparison for all nutrients in different foods.

Scroll down to "Converting dry matter basis"

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=1&cat=1399&articleid=667#

Shredy thank you for your offer of help [I may take you up on that] & your kind words :)

Chico - there has been info re HyperThyroidism links with kidney failure, so I will PM you the link to be sure you see it ;)

Shaykeija
September 30th, 2007, 04:38 AM
When Shayker was diagnosed with kidney failure the first thing I did was change her water to pedilte. It kept her hydrated and her electrolytes up. I am so sorry your furkid if facing this hard journey. :sorry:

growler~GateKeeper
September 30th, 2007, 04:46 AM
Thanks Shaykeija, I may look into that - right now she's drinking okay & it has been suggested to switch to a water fountain to stimulate drinking, so I'm thinking on that too. :)

growler~GateKeeper
September 30th, 2007, 09:49 PM
Today I have picked up:
Wellnes: a can of Chicken/ a can of Turkey/ a can of Beef & Chicken
I have emailed them in regards to Nutrient Anaylsis to get the actual phos content since I can't find it on their website :frustrated:.

Nature's Variety Instinct: a can of Rabbit/ 2 cans of Chicken
Nature's Variety Prairie (old formula): 6 cans of Beef/ 2 cans of Chicken & Turkey
I have also emailed them asking why the old formula Prairie is discontinued & mentioned Duffy's CRF and that the Beef formula is the lowest I have found 0.9% phos dry matter!!!!, the vet px diet is 1%. And also to get the Nutrient Anaylsis & actual phos content of the NEW Prairie varieties which they haven't listed ingredients/anaylsis yet.

With both emails I mentioned the Duffy's CRF so hopefully I will get good responses soon :fingerscr

growler~GateKeeper
September 30th, 2007, 09:58 PM
Forgot to add she had the NV Beef for dinner & she likes it :highfive: !!!!

otter
September 30th, 2007, 10:09 PM
Good for you Duffy!!:highfive:

I am at a loss for advice so Molly and are sending all the :goodvibes: and :grouphug: we can muster for Duffy doing great for a good long time:cat:

growler~GateKeeper
September 30th, 2007, 10:17 PM
Thanks Otter & Molly :grouphug:

sugarcatmom
October 1st, 2007, 08:21 AM
Today I have picked up:
Wellnes: a can of Chicken/ a can of Turkey/ a can of Beef & Chicken
I have emailed them in regards to Nutrient Anaylsis to get the actual phos content since I can't find it on their website :frustrated:.

Nature's Variety Instinct: a can of Rabbit/ 2 cans of Chicken
Nature's Variety Prairie (old formula): 6 cans of Beef/ 2 cans of Chicken & Turkey
I have also emailed them asking why the old formula Prairie is discontinued & mentioned Duffy's CRF and that the Beef formula is the lowest I have found 0.9% phos dry matter!!!!, the vet px diet is 1%. And also to get the Nutrient Anaylsis & actual phos content of the NEW Prairie varieties which they haven't listed ingredients/anaylsis yet.

With both emails I mentioned the Duffy's CRF so hopefully I will get good responses soon :fingerscr

Oh sorry, I should have also given you these links listing the phosphorus amounts of many canned foods. This one shows it as mg per 100 cal: http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/canfood.html

And here is another one with the listing as a % of dry matter: http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm But it's probably a good thing that you emailed them anyway to get the most up-to-date info (and not all flavours/brands are listed either). Some of the Wysong varieties also have excellent phosphorus levels, but they can be harder to find, and if you feed the All Meat (Au Jus) ones, a supplement needs to be added to make them complete (or just feed intermittently).

You might know this better than me, but I believe the goal is feed foods with 1% or less of phosphorus (as percent of dry matter), or around 200mg/100cal and under. Every single meal doesn't necessarily have to follow that rule, so if you have a cat that needs variety you can alternate some of the lower ones with higher ones to get an overall balance.

Love4himies
October 1st, 2007, 10:24 AM
Forgot to add she had the NV Beef for dinner & she likes it :highfive: !!!!

I have been in the market for months for a higher quality canned food for my female cat who is very picky because I am now much better educated thanks to the experience of the board members here. She loves Fancy Feast, the fish varieties, but I have been able to get her to eat NV Instinct Chicken canned and sort of the Venison depending on her mood. It was the most successful brand I have found so far. She will also munch on the NV Instinct dry.

I'd be very interested to hear the responses to your emails requesting more info on the food analysis as my cat has permanent kidney damage and although her blood work results are normal except for calcium, chances are she will develop CRF in the coming years.

growler~GateKeeper
October 2nd, 2007, 02:32 AM
Oh sorry, I should have also given you these links listing the phosphorus amounts of many canned foods. This one shows it as mg per 100 cal: http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/canfood.html

And here is another one with the listing as a % of dry matter: http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm But it's probably a good thing that you emailed them anyway to get the most up-to-date info (and not all flavours/brands are listed either). Some of the Wysong varieties also have excellent phosphorus levels, but they can be harder to find, and if you feed the All Meat (Au Jus) ones, a supplement needs to be added to make them complete (or just feed intermittently).

You might know this better than me, but I believe the goal is feed foods with 1% or less of phosphorus (as percent of dry matter), or around 200mg/100cal and under. Every single meal doesn't necessarily have to follow that rule, so if you have a cat that needs variety you can alternate some of the lower ones with higher ones to get an overall balance.


Thank you Sugarcatmom :grouphug:, I had already seen & read those ones but always good to post for others reading too. :thumbs up

I am trying to stay grain free, low phos, lowish-more middleish range protein (I do agree they still need protein esp since it will encourage cats to eat) & holistic

Yes the goal is 1% or less phos as dry matter, but I wasn't sure about every meal so thanks for that :highfive: good to know I can go abit higher on occasion cuz it is hard to find ones that come in @ or under 1%, many are between 1.06-1.22%

growler~GateKeeper
October 2nd, 2007, 02:42 AM
I have so far received an email from Wellness they were wonderful at providing me with complete analysis for several foods, however some were dry foods & many of the canned had fish in them & to my understanding with CRF I am supposed to try to avoid fish as much as possible, or only as a treat once in a while.

I have emailed Wellness again thanking them & asking for specific (stating the product code) variety info - for the Chicken/Turkey/Beef & Chicken, I mentioned the need to avoid fish hopefully I will get another super quick response. :fingerscr

I am still waiting for a response from Nature's Variety :fingerscr

Currently Duffy is on canned only (she does have some Evo & Orijen left for snacking but she's not been eating the dry for a while now) & there is no way to go back to dry - she wouldn't eat it, which is good Wet is Best for CRF

I'd be very interested to hear the responses to your emails requesting more info on the food analysis as my cat has permanent kidney damage and although her blood work results are normal except for calcium, chances are she will develop CRF in the coming years. :goodvibes: :grouphug:

I'll let you know when I get the desired (same detailed info) reponse from the 2nd email :thumbs up

Love4himies
October 2nd, 2007, 07:30 AM
Thanks, Growler.

growler~GateKeeper
October 2nd, 2007, 10:49 AM
sugarcatmom a question I forgot to ask:

the as fed as dry matter values are based on per can so for example when Duffy was on EVO she was eating 1/2 can per day (she honestly wasn't hungry enoungh to have any more) am I correct in assuming that the values would be half?

for example EVO per can:
moisture 74.03% = dry matter 25.97%
protein 13.23 % / 25.97 (dry matter) = 50% protein dry matter
phosphorus .36% / 25.97 (dry matter) = 1.38% phos dry matter


so if she only eats 1/2 can per day that would be:
25% protein dry matter & 0.69% phosphorus dry matter per day

Is that right?? thanks :)

sugarcatmom
October 2nd, 2007, 05:56 PM
sugarcatmom a question I forgot to ask:

the as fed as dry matter values are based on per can so for example when Duffy was on EVO she was eating 1/2 can per day (she honestly wasn't hungry enoungh to have any more) am I correct in assuming that the values would be half?

Unfortunately, no, it doesn't quite work that way. The % just means that, no matter what the total weight of the food is, a consistent portion is going to be made up of, lets say protein. So, whether you feed 250g of food or 500g of food, 40% of that is going to be protein, on a dry matter basis. Yes, the 250g meal will have half of the total protein of the 500g meal, but it will still be 40% in both cases. Does that make any sense?

Also, here is an excerpt from the Janet & Binky (http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/canfood.html) food charts regarding phosphorus amounts and comparing the different formats:

Q. My cat needs to eat low-phosphorus foods -- how do the numbers on your table relate to the dry weight value of phosphorus?

A. The relationship between "mg phosphorus per 100 calories" and "% phosphorus by dry weight" is not exact, as it depends on the caloric content of the food. However, as a general rule, 1% dry weight is approximately equal to 240 mg per 100 calories, see chart (http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/phosph.jpg).

rainbow
October 2nd, 2007, 07:02 PM
Sure getting lots of good information here. I think this should be made a sticky. :thumbs up

growler~GateKeeper
October 3rd, 2007, 04:13 AM
She loves Fancy Feast, the fish varieties, but I have been able to get her to eat NV Instinct Chicken canned and sort of the Venison depending on her mood. It was the most successful brand I have found so far. She will also munch on the NV Instinct dry.

I'd be very interested to hear the responses to your emails requesting more info on the food analysis as my cat has permanent kidney damage and although her blood work results are normal except for calcium, chances are she will develop CRF in the coming years.


The response I got from NV was a little less than impressive after the fabulous reponses from Consumer Affairs @ Wellness.

I emailed basically the same question to both, asking for complete NA in regards to CRF feeding, asking specifically for absolute percentages not just min-max esp for phos. I also asked NV for the NA for the new line of Prairie since the old line is discontinued & the beef in the old formula is the lowest in phos so far (in terms of holistic non prescription can food). Their response was:

Thank you for your recent email inquiry to Nature’s Variety regarding our can diets and their nutritional analysis.

As you noticed, there was time recently where we were transitioning some of our can diets. We now are offering Instinct cans and will soon be again offering Prairie cans along with a new Homestyle from the Prairie cans.

The best place to find all of our nutritional information is on the website where we have all of the analysis listed for the diets that you are interested in.

This link is for the currently available Instinct cans for your review.
http://www.naturesvariety.com/content.lasso?r=1204959&page=1494&-session=naturesvariety:D8AA0BFA1876f1D593uOw37A5A1 C

What you will find with our diets is that our minimums and maximums listed are very near the averages in those diets so we are comfortable with you using those numbers as part of your search.

We hope that this information has been helpful and thank you again for your interest in Nature’s Variety.

Sincerely,

Customer Service
Nature’s Variety

This information is all currently available to everyone on the NV website, and they did not answer why they were discontinuing the Old Prairie Formula or what the NA is for the New Prairie Formula is or if it will be similar. :frustrated:

Wellness however sent me full NA for all varieties of canned & some dry foods including the AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) Nutrient Profile Substance Claim comparison to their food (labeled CLASSIFIED), they only have the minimum amount of info the guarenteed analysis available on their website - this is the same info on the cans.

In keeping with my reassurance to Wellness that this is for my own research not for public study (or secret selling to competitors) I will only post a little of what they sent me.

In regards to the 3 varieties I purchased it looks like this:

CHICKEN
......................As fed Basis,............Dry Matter............g/Per 1000
............................%..................... Basis, %...............KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.....1411.10...................5253.54.......... ..........-

MOISTURE..........73.14........................-...........................-
PROTEIN.............12.04....................44.83 ......................85.32
FAT...................10.96.....................40 .80.....................77.67
CARBOHYDRATES...1.74.....................6.48..... .................12.33
FIBER..................0.27.....................1. 01........................1.91
ASH....................1.85......................6 .89.....................13.11
CALCIUM..............0.36.....................1.34 .......................2.55
PHOSPHORUS........0.31.....................1.15... ....................2.20
POTASSIUM..........0.35.....................1.30.. .....................2.48
SODIUM...............0.09.....................0.34 .......................0.64


CHICKEN & BEEF

........................As fed Basis,..........Dry Matter...........g/Per 1000
.............................%.................... Basis, %...............KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.....1239.84.................5159.55............ ........-

MOISTURE..........75.97.........................-.....................-
PROTEIN.............11.11...................46.23. ..................89.61
FAT....................9.43....................39. 24...................76.06
CARBOHYDRATES..1.42......................5.91..... ..............11.45
FIBER..................0.26.....................1. 08.....................2.10
ASH....................1.81.....................7. 53....................14.60
CALCIUM..............0.31....................1.29. ....................2.50
PHOSPHORUS........0.28....................1.17.... .................2.26
POTASSIUM..........0.31....................1.29... ..................2.50
SODIUM...............0.09....................0.37. ....................0.73


TURKEY
........................As fed Basis,...........Dry Matter............g/Per 1000
.............................%.................... Basis, %................KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.......1397.62..................5205.29......... .............-

MOISTURE............73.15.......................-..............................-
PROTEIN...............12.44...................46.3 3.......................89.01
FAT.....................10.63...................39 .59.......................76.06
CARBOHYDRATES....1.67.....................6.22.... .....................11.95
FIBER...................0.27.....................1 .01..........................1.93
ASH.....................1.84.....................6 .85.........................13.17
CALCIUM..............0.33.....................1.22 ..........................2.34
PHOSPHORUS........0.28.....................1.05... .......................2.01
POTASSIUM..........0.32.....................1.18.. ........................2.27
SODIUM................0.08.....................0.3 0.........................0.58

Love4himies
October 3rd, 2007, 06:59 AM
Thank you, growler. Looks like Turkey in the Wellness brand would be the best for my cat. It is so difficult to get her to change her food. She is so skinny to begin with that not eating regularly worries me so. She has always been such a picky eater.

growler~GateKeeper
October 3rd, 2007, 10:55 PM
L4H Duffy quite likes the Wellness Turkey :thumbs up so your girl might too :fingerscr Try adding extra water slightly warm to make a gravy works great :)

I bought an automatic water fountain today (super quite :thumbs up can't hear it unless you stick your head right next to the bowl) cuz I haven't noticed her drinking, so far she won't use it :frustrated:, I still have the regular porcelain double dish & a single one of water out for her.

When she was on EVO canned she would drink water after every meal and I was adding 2 tsp of water to her food. Now with trying the NV & Wellness I'm adding 4 tsp water cuz she doesn't seem to be drinking.

In the last 2 years everytime I had to take Duffy in for re testing because of the Hyperthyroidism, the vet techs have told me "she is slightly dehydrated" even when I knew via observation she was drinking water everytime she ate.

I'm going to open the last can I have of Evo tomorrow for her breakfast & see if she drinks water after - maybe if she will only drink water with the Evo I may have to go back to it & get some phos binders, or talk to her vet re sub-q fluids. Hopefully she will take to the fountain :fingerscr

I have noticed some hind end weakness esp when she turns corners. She will still play with & chase the new laser toy & jumps on the bed & also the table to get onto the window sill. This could be dehydration, or high phos - though her count was in the middle of normal range, could be other things as well - will be keeping an eye on it for sure

Only vomited (food) once this week (none prior except for a def hairball) after mixing Evo & NV Beef with a couple of krunchies. hmm maybe the krunchies? not the mixing of food - have done that since & no vomiting. She doesn't seem to be nausious, no retching/coughing, litterbox is good - little pees though - to be expected :shrug:

The krunchies, which she isn't touching anyways, I took today down to the SPCA. I have also noticed with the Evo (high protein) she was eating 1/2 a can per day & wasn't hungry after her two meals. With the lower protein NV & Wellness she is eating between 3/4 of a can & a full can per day & is going back several times to the dish.

chico2
October 4th, 2007, 08:13 AM
It sounds like you are doing ok with Duffy:thumbs up
My Rockys weightloss is mostly noticed on his backend,some weakness,vet says he's arthritic but I believe it's because of his HTism.
With my 3,it's really nervy at feedingtime,Vinnie slurps all of his food,I have to sit with Rocky until he finishes the teaspoon of food with his pill,usually no problem,after he finishes he gets the rest.
Chico might just sniff the food and walk away,only to return later to eat,it's a constant moving dishes around so Vinnie does not eat it all,pain in the butt,but they are worth it:cat:

growler~GateKeeper
October 6th, 2007, 02:22 AM
L4H here's some of the NV info for the Instinct from their website
I included the dry matter conversion for calcium for you since Puddles needs lower level - though I'm not sure what the level she needs is but you can check lower end levels.

I didn't include the Vension variety cuz the phos level is :crazy: high
The levels below are per can not converted into dry matter (except for the conversions I did :))
Nature’s Variety Instinct Canned Chicken Formula
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 9.0%
Crude Fat (min) 7.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.0%
Moisture (max) 75.0%

Calories
209 per 5.5 oz can

Minerals
Calcium: 0.384%
Phosphorus: 0.307%
Magnesium: 0.029%
Sodium: 0.114%
Potassium: 0.273%
Chloride: 0.181%
Ash: 2.206%

So the dry matter phos level is: 1.228%
Dry matter calcium level: 1.536%

Nature’s Variety Instinct Canned Beef Formula
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 9.0%
Crude Fat (min) 7.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.0%
Moisture (max) 75.0%

Calories
220 per 5.5 oz can

Minerals
Calcium: 0.399%
Phosphorus: 0.341%
Magnesium: 0.023%
Sodium: 0.145%
Potassium: 0.252%
Chloride: 0.211%
Ash: 2.296%

Dry matter phos level: 1.364%
Dry matter calcium level: 1.596%

Nature’s Variety Instinct Canned Rabbit Formula
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 9.0%
Crude Fat (min) 7.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.0%
Moisture (max) 75.0%

Calories
222 per 5.5 oz can

Minerals
Calcium: 0.444%
Phosphorus: 0.327%
Magnesium: 0.022%
Sodium: 0.121%
Potassium: 0.327%
Chloride: 0.207%
Ash: 2.111%

Dry matter phos level: 1.308%
Dry matter calcium level: 1.776%

growler~GateKeeper
October 6th, 2007, 02:36 AM
So it looks like so far she hasn't been drinking on her own outside of the water added to her food & the little bit I have been syringing down her throat - let me tell you she is NOT impressed with that :eek:

I will have to do a water measurement either sun/mon when I'm off work to accurately compare levels in the 3 dishes.

Chico As for her hind end weakness, I was also thinking arthritis, but since it can be an indirect side effect (through a second additional condition) of CRF I'm not ruling out anything. The weird thing is it just started on the 30Sept which is when I switched her off Evo to lower protein/lower phos & that is when she started to not drink. But when she sits it really looks alot like Callys' arthritis sit - very controlled careful placement of the legs/hips underneath them in a way to ensure they won't fall/lean over - several years ago I bought a hand-held electric massager for Cally to help alleviate his arthritis, so I have started using that on Duffy - good thing she is used to it from Cally - I would massage her too abit then & she likes it. Purrs away during her massage but still lets me know when she's had enough. :D

chico2
October 6th, 2007, 08:11 AM
Rocky(11yrs old) has no trouble sitting,walking,running,but he went from 16lb's to 12lb's in a very short time,in losing so much weight,he also lost musclemass.
I don't think he's arthritic,but I am no vet...I just don't want to give him painpills if it seems he does not need it.
I hope your little girl will do ok,it's a worry when they don't drink,luckily all of mine drink quiet a bit,I change the water about 15 times a day:yell:
I had a waterfountain once,but they were afraid of it:cat:

sugarcatmom
October 6th, 2007, 08:39 AM
So it looks like so far she hasn't been drinking on her own outside of the water added to her food & the little bit I have been syringing down her throat - let me tell you she is NOT impressed with that :eek:

Cats eating only canned often don't need to drink any extra water, especially if you're adding water to the food. I would skip the syringing part (less stress is always a good thing!) and maybe just put another tbsp or 2 in her meals. Even my diabetic doesn't drink out of his water dish anymore (and I was measuring the amounts twice a day for months just to be sure). I was thinking that maybe Duffy was drinking more with the EVO because it possibly has a higher sodium content? or lower moisture content? (haven't compared values so I could be wrong - just a guess).

As for the arthritis issue, I did read somewhere that 90% of cats over the age of 12 have radiographic signs of arthritis. Most commonly in the elbow, followed by the hips. It wouldn't hurt to ask your vet about Cosequin (http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/products/animal/cosequin/cosequin_jointHealth.asp#null), or even the new Dasuquin (http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/products/animal/dasuquin/dasuquin_cats.asp). My Aztec started showing signs of a persistent limp in one of his front legs last year and after about 6-8 weeks of Cosequin, he is now limp-free. It's not a pain-killer but more of a joint-rebuilder and is easily mixed with food.

growler~GateKeeper
October 7th, 2007, 03:51 AM
Sugarcatmom - thanks for the links I will check them out. :thumbs up
She's not limping just leaning/wobbly abit & sitting *carefully* & laying down more when she used to be sitting. The thing is I know the weakness could be related to not having enough water re CRF, I don't want to assume it is arthritis & ignore the other possiblilities which is why I'm probably too cautious with the water - though (arthritis) that's what it looks like



The EVO NA looks like this:
......................As fed Basis,............Dry Matter
............................%..................... Basis, %
MOISTURE..........74.03........................-......
PROTEIN.............13.23....................50.94
FAT...................9.23..................... 35.54
CARBOHYDRATES...1.01.....................3.88
FIBER..................0.19.....................0. 73
ASH....................2.30......................8 .85
CALCIUM..............0.45.....................1.73
PHOSPHORUS........0.36.....................1.38
POTASSIUM..........0.26.....................1.00
SODIUM...............0.16.....................0.61


I see now the sodium is higher than others, so that maybe it.
With EVO I was adding 2 tsp, now with NV & Wellness I'm adding 4 tsp so it's quite gravyish.
What concerns me is the techs always mentioned she was a bit dehydrated {gums are def not tacky feeling} & of course I'd like to stall sub-q as long as possible.
According to some info the techs gave me from RC
The recommended water consumption of the cat is 55 - 70 ml/kg-body weight/per day or 1ml per kcal of metabolizable energy consumed
This is where I get :confused:
1 tsp=5ml 11 tsp = 55 ml low end of scale 11 tsp * 5.5kg (Duffy's weight) =60.5 tsp water per day :eek: http://bestsmileys.com/fainting/1.gif
this would be assuming only straight h2o drinking - not including amount in canned food

If you take the ME kcal of Wellness Turkey:M.E. KCAL/KG = 1397.62 % per can as fed 165g can = 230 kcal/can * 1ml = 230 ml = 46 tsp = 1 cup h2o/perday :eek: http://bestsmileys.com/fainting/1.gif


I'll be measuring water over the next 2 days to see if she has actually had any


Thank you everyone so much for all the help & suggestions posted so far :highfive:

sugarcatmom
October 7th, 2007, 01:34 PM
I found this website with tips for increasing water consumption: http://cl-ruth.s-ivil.tripod.com/id8.html

One of my favorites is to use the "juice" from a can of unsalted salmon or tuna, diluted about half and half with plain water. You can keep topping up the can with more water and store it in the fridge for 2 or 3 days to get the most out of it.

Also 'Baby Food Soup' works well. Plain chicken (no onions) mixed with plenty of warmish water is a big treat for my kitty.

I understand not wanting to do subQ fluids just yet, but if it ever does become necessary, it's not so bad if you follow a few tricks (like warming the fluids first, using a higher gauge needle, giving lots of treats, etc). In fact, I'd way rather give my cat subQs than anything orally! Many cats learn to associate the procedure with feeling better and become quite compliant about the whole thing. I have lots of links on subQ stuff if you ever need them. :D

growler~GateKeeper
October 7th, 2007, 03:17 PM
Sugarcatmom Thanks :grouphug: you have been an amazing :angel2: of resource & help for me & Duffy :pawprint:

chico2
October 7th, 2007, 04:49 PM
SCM,that goes double for me,you are amazing:thumbs up
:pray:that Duffy will be fine:pray:

sugarcatmom
October 7th, 2007, 05:33 PM
Awww shucks . . . thanks guys! It's my pleasure. :o

growler~GateKeeper
October 8th, 2007, 11:33 PM
So yesterday I measured out exactly how much water is in the single, double dishes & fountain & will recheck the levels tommorrow :fingerscr

Duffy has decided she doesn't like the NV Prairie Beef anymore (after 2 days with other varieties fed alternative meals) :rolleyes: that of course is the lowest phos food :rolleyes: but soon to be not available anymore anyways :shrug: so I'll have to take the remaining 4 cans of it back plus their Chicken & Turkey which she refuses to eat. Really funny since she loves the Wellness Beef & Chicken and also the Wellness Turkey :shrug: :rolleyes: You would think C&T is a better combo than B&T :shrug:

The Wellness Turkey is the lowest of those she will eat @ 1.05% dry matter.

I have been playing with the laser pointer with her & giving her massages & she does seem to be a little bit more stable on the hind end :thumbs up <insert happy dance> :D

growler~GateKeeper
October 12th, 2007, 03:48 AM
Not a single drop of water has been drunk from the bowls :frustrated: $50 down the drain (:laughing: pun most definately intended) on a water fountain cuz she won't use it :rolleyes:

Talked to the vet today re blood tests/vaccines/phosphate binders/food etc etc etc

I'm so glad Dr is open minded she would prefer the prescription :yuck: but is okay with Wellness & NV :thumbs up I did mention the dm phos level & I am forwarding some info on the food to her.

I asked her opinion on phos binders (not necessary now but always good to know what their stand is on these kinds of things) & the generally accepted level at which to start them. She hadn't heard of the tasteless/odourless ones & asked me to fax the info I have on them :highfive: who knows :shrug: perhaps may help someone else's pet too.

Dr wants to do FVRCP every other year while she is still stable (to be stopped when she is not longer holding steady) & continue with the 3 year rabies due this year - though she did leave that decision up to me (Rabies infected Bats are not known in my town but are 2 cities away~less than 1 hour away) I'm thinking I will have to think abit more on this :shrug: We will of course continue with the 2x yearly geri panel & UAs

Love4himies
October 12th, 2007, 07:41 AM
Duffy has decided she doesn't like the NV Prairie Beef anymore (after 2 days with other varieties fed alternative meals) :rolleyes: that of course is the lowest phos food :D


Puddles was the same way when I started her on NV Instinct. She loved the first can of chicken and also of beef, but she won't touch it anymore? She will eat the Wellness Turkey now, but not much of it before she tries to bury it.

chico2
October 12th, 2007, 08:20 AM
Growler,do you think Duffys current problem has anything to do with her Thyroidtreatment??
Cats can be the most frustrating when it come to food,I have a supply of Merricks,now mine don't like it anymore,Fancy Feast must be like a drug to cats:yell:
They still eat Pet-Values own brand,but for how long,I think I have tried every kind of canned in the store...this morning they all 3 gulped down Performatrin Adult Life Stages Turkey-Formula,probably only a small step up from FF,but still a good thing:thumbs up
:fingerscrfor Duffy and you.

growler~GateKeeper
October 13th, 2007, 01:42 AM
L4H - have you tried mixing varieties? mix turkey in with beef or chicken? That helped to get Duffy to eat the last of the NV Beef :thumbs up

Funny thing is when she was a kitten & eating crappy food she would bury it all the time - then come back for more 5 min later :rolleyes:. As an adult, when she was on RC she never buried the dish, since switching to Wellness & NV Duffy only once buried the NV Beef surprised the heck outta me she did that (which she won't eat now-no more for you punkin :D) & hasn't done any burying since :shrug:


Chico - no I don't think the HyperT treatment (radioactive iodine) has affected her kidneys though some studies have shown a link between CRF & T4 treatments - not mentioning which kind of treatment though:rolleyes::frustrated: she had the RaId 2 years ago december & all kidney function tests have been perfect since then until April this year

Duffy's test results were all perfect in March
food recall came down (she was on the recalled RC) test results in April -> early kidney failure :frustrated:
The large spike (35.5 points :eek:) in her creatinine levels after 1 month says (to me anyways) it was the food especially since her last geri panel was in Sept 5 months after the recall testing & the creatinine level has only risen 11 points - that to me is a normal rate

11 points in 5 months would be natural progression of the disease but 35.5 points in 1 month is toxin related in my opinion

march creatinine 165 normal :) I remember her vet said before the results came in "I would be surprised if she didn't show some signs of kidney failure" (because of her age) I was so so happy when I saw the results because she was perfectly healthy @ 16yrs with not even the slightest thing out of normal
april creatining 200.5 high :eek: :mad:
sept creatining 211.8 high :frustrated:

I emailed Royal Canin/Medical re compensation/help w/future medical bill payments, the vets there spoke to my vet & RC/MC vets are now reviewing all of Duffy's test results to see if they come to the conclusion that it was food related & they will get back to me. RC/MC was not part of the Menu recall & I have found no class action lawsuit against them & I have not heard of any animals getting sick from their food. So we shall see what they decide.

Thanks for the continued good wishes for Duffy =) - right now she is holding steady in terms of how she feels, tests in 6 months, I faxed phos binder info to my vet this morning for her to read (not neccessary now but I like to be prepared for what's to come), we're skipping FVRCP vaccines this year & I still haven't decided about the rabies yet

chico2
October 13th, 2007, 08:24 AM
Growler thank's,not that I am considering the HyperT treatment at the moment for Rocky,but I am having problems with him still.
I am going for a consult with the vet monday morning(without Rocky)he is on meds,but drives me crazy at times,with pacing and sometimes aggression towards Chico..I'll see what she says.
We are going away thursday,my youngest son
(37)will stay here with the cats,so that worries me a bit.

growler~GateKeeper
October 14th, 2007, 12:15 AM
Chico from this quote is seems like any kind of treatment (meds/surgery/RaId) for HyperT can result in CRF esp since most cats with HyperT are not treated with RaId because of the cost & availability of this treatment. :shrug:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16584026&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
Hyperthyroidism and chronic renal failure (CRF) are both common diseases of older cats. Hyperthyroidism increases GFR (Glomerular Filtration Rate) by a variety of physiologic effects. Chronic renal failure can suppress total T4 concentrations in cats with concurrent hyperthyroidism, and free T4 is not a useful distinguishing test. Medical therapy (ie, methimazole) is recommended in cats with pre-existing CRF. Overt renal failure occurs in approximately 30% of cats treated for hyperthyroidism. It usually occurs within one month of treatment and tends to remain mild and stable over time. There is no practical way to predict which cats will develop CRF after treatment of hyperthyroidism, although GFR measurement does seem useful.

Good luck w/Rocky @ the vets Monday :goodvibes:

I made the decision re the Rabies vaccine & made the appt for end of the month for the poke :evil:

chico2
October 14th, 2007, 08:14 AM
Growler,I am holding off on Rockys vaccines this year,he's been vaccinated every year for 11 years,it's just that we have enough to deal with right now,without adding possible problems from the vac's.
Thank's for all the info. I sent you a PM.

sugarcatmom
October 16th, 2007, 05:51 PM
Growler, did your vet mention anything about using calcitriol at any point in Duffy's treatment? I've been reading some interesting (well, to me at least :loser:) info on it and by the sounds of it, calcitriol might be a good thing to start early on in CRF management. Check out this link: http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/calcitriol/


Calcitriol is the key to controlling hyperparathyroidism. When it's used early in renal failure, the dose that will be effective is predictable and less expensive monitoring is necessary. This is the best use of the drug -- to start it before the parathyroid hormone levels increase. However, it's never too late in the progression of renal failure to start it -- but starting later means the dose of calcitriol is less predictable, so more monitoring of parathyroid hormone levels is required. In addition, starting later usually means that we have to work first to make the phosphorus level drop below 6.0 mg/dl -- calcitriol physically can't work when the phosphorus level is higher. To do this requires a combination of a low protein (also low in phosphorus) diet, and frequently the use of aluminum hydroxide (trade names Amphogel, Alternagel, Basaljel) to bind phosphorus in the diet. Once the phosphorus level drops, then usually the phosphate binder isn't required for the long run.

Not only is calcitriol working silently to prolong survival, but it actually causes the animal to feel better--better appetite and more activity.


A preventive use of a low (2.5-3.5 ng/kg) dose of calcitriol to supplement dogs and cats in early stages of chronic renal disease appears safe, effective and advisable.


We are of the opinion that the majority of uremic dogs and cats will benefit from use of low doses of calcitriol as part of their treatment plan whether in correction of hyperparathyroidism that has previously developed or in prevention of its occurrence.

growler~GateKeeper
October 17th, 2007, 12:18 AM
Sugarcatmom no she hasn't mentioned that as yet since Duffy's phos, calcium & even her creatine phosphokinase levels are still in normal range, BUN 14.3 & Cre 211.8 are high USG is 1.038 so not too too bad, she's eating good (even looks like she's put on some weight she didn't really need :o), water in every meal, and her T4 thyroid level is at the low end of normal since the radioactive iodine therapy 2 years ago - it actually just within the last 6 months came up into normal range from low :shrug:

I did send her info on aluminum-based tasteless/odorless phosphate binders she wasn't aware of, so I will print this info off to show to her.

Thanks for the link I will ask her about it & see what she says re the effect it might have on her T4 level, when Duffy goes in for her Rabies Vx @ the end of the month :thumbs up

And no you are not a :loser: you are an :angel2: :D

Thanks again :grouphug:

growler~GateKeeper
October 17th, 2007, 12:47 AM
I found a great site for converting the US values to Canadian/International values:

http://www.vin.com/scripts/labquest/converthtml.pl

pravalgi
October 24th, 2007, 09:43 AM
My 6 yr old Tortie Persian was diagnoses with CKD. She was put on Hills K/D wet food and pediolyte right away. Now I keep a bowl of both the wet and dry K/D out for her and she eats up a storm and has gained weight. Her blood work is back to normal. You can only buy the food from your Vet, but I highly recommend it. It worked wonders for my baby!

Love4himies
October 24th, 2007, 01:09 PM
My 6 yr old Tortie Persian was diagnoses with CKD. She was put on Hills K/D wet food and pediolyte right away. Now I keep a bowl of both the wet and dry K/D out for her and she eats up a storm and has gained weight. Her blood work is back to normal. You can only buy the food from your Vet, but I highly recommend it. It worked wonders for my baby!


Are you talking about chronic renal failure, because as far as I know, kidney damage is permanent and non-reversible. Chronic meaning "on going"

growler~GateKeeper
October 24th, 2007, 08:13 PM
My 6 yr old Tortie Persian was diagnoses with CKD. She was put on Hills K/D wet food and pediolyte right away. Now I keep a bowl of both the wet and dry K/D out for her and she eats up a storm and has gained weight. Her blood work is back to normal. You can only buy the food from your Vet, but I highly recommend it. It worked wonders for my baby!

Glad your cat it doing good but chronic renal failure is an ongoing disease of the kidneys in which damage to the kidneys is irreversiable. Perhaps your cat had Acute kidney failure which is usually caused by poisoning, trauma etc that can be reversed if aggressively treated immediately.

By the way the ingredients in Hills or any other prescription food is mostly chemicals, grain & fillers that our pets do not need in their diets. A grain free holistic food with all natural human grade food is far better for their health. If I had been aware of this before feeding my cat Royal Canin - she wouldn't have been affected by the food recall which lead to the kidney failure she is currently going through.

growler~GateKeeper
October 24th, 2007, 08:22 PM
So Duffy has an appt for her Rabies Vx on Oct 30, & I am researching herbal supplements to talk to her vet about, there unfortunately is alot of conflicting info on which herbs to use. I have info on the combo I'm thinking to use & I can get it locally through a trusted supplier, so no shadey internet buys :highfive:. Trying to be proactive & not just wait until her phos levels increase to the point she needs a phos binder & her cre levels increase to the point she needs sub-q fluids.

Speaking of fluids - seems Duffy has been drinking from the pet water fountain, the water level dropped 500ml within 2 weeks & there is no way that was all just evaporation - it's been cold here lately, I just never SEE her drinking :frustrated::shrug:

hazelrunpack
October 24th, 2007, 11:52 PM
It's good that she's drinking and holding her own, growler. :thumbs up She's very lucky to have such a proactive mummy! :D

growler~GateKeeper
October 25th, 2007, 12:01 AM
Thanks Hazel, she has her more active/less active days too (today a less active day - no play tonight) not sure whether that's her age or the CRF perhaps a bit of both. I'm glad I have a visit scheduled next week & can talk more indepth w/her vet then & bombard her with all my gathered info :D

growler~GateKeeper
November 3rd, 2007, 03:29 AM
Duffy had her Rabies Vx (skipped the FVRCP this year) a few days ago, had a long talk w/the vet on a variety of topics related to CRF - ratio of calcium-phosphorus, potassium levels, vaccines, food, drinking water, supplements, herbs, the plethora of conflicting info on the web :rolleyes: etc Her vet is very glad I have been doing tons of research on my own & becoming more informed - even passing along tidbits of info she wasn't aware of :o

Since her vx she has been eating a little less during the day & @ dinner time, but did eat all her breakfast Friday morning

Duffy also seems a little more lethargic & seems to be a wee bit drooly - I know that can mean several different things (mouth ulcers/teeth/nausea/just plain old age) so I will be keeping an eye on those things, hopefully it is just a mild vaccine reaction. She did ask to go out for a "hallway walk" tonight & we did, a wee stroll through the halls of the apt bldg :D silly :cat:

I have also booked an appt for a Homeopathic vet consult for the end of the month (earliest available that is convenient & my day off since it's not an emergency) we'll see if that helps :shrug: I don't want to look back a couple months down the road & think "I wish I had tried that"

So far she is stable, no supplements, medication or fluids necessary right now :fingerscr it continues for a long long time

chico2
November 3rd, 2007, 08:10 AM
Growler,I have not commented much since I know very little about treatments etc.for Duffys problem,but I have been reading every post,to learn and also of course to find out how Duffy is doing.
:pray:that Duffy will improve,with such a caring loving owner,she just has to:cat:

growler~GateKeeper
November 4th, 2007, 01:35 AM
Since her vx she has been eating a little less during the day & @ dinner time, but did eat all her breakfast Friday morning

Duffy also seems a little more lethargic & seems to be a wee bit drooly - I know that can mean several different things (mouth ulcers/teeth/nausea/just plain old age) so I will be keeping an eye on those things, hopefully it is just a mild vaccine reaction.

Okay so I figured out why she was a little lethargic & not wanting to eat......When we came home from that vet visit, I gave her a couple of teaspoons of food but didn't add water to it :wall: so now she has decided she likes it better w/out extra water added, therefore wasn't eating much = less energy. Her meals today have had only 1 extra tsp of water, & since she seems to be drinking from the fountain it's okay & I'll just slowly try to add in more water to her food again

As for the "wee bit drooly" - not today so :shrug: will keep an eye on it ;)


:pray:that Duffy will improve,with such a caring loving owner,she just has to:cat:

:grouphug: Thanks Chico :)

growler~GateKeeper
November 6th, 2007, 02:48 AM
Duffy is back to eating great including with the normal 4 tsp water added in :thumbs up

Not Drooling today either :thumbs up

She has has 2-3 retching episodes in the last month about one per week but nothing has surfaced so I'm happy she's not bringing anything up therefore no water loss either. Duffy is so not a "hairball thrower" so it is more likely caused by a bit of nausea :sad: likely the drool cause too.

Her better feeling days far far out number the days where she looks a bit under the weather :thumbs up

Love4himies
November 6th, 2007, 07:02 AM
Wahoo Duffy, keep up the eating!:thumbs up

chico2
November 6th, 2007, 07:39 AM
Growler,that's great news :pray:that Duffy will continue to do well:cat:

growler~GateKeeper
November 12th, 2007, 01:56 AM
An update for those of you following along :D

I have noticed some hind end weakness esp when she turns corners. She will still play with & chase the new laser toy & jumps on the bed & also the table to get onto the window sill.

The hind end weakness has not resurfaced since she had several electic machine massages except when alot of chasing the laser toy is goin on....so I'm unsure what was up with that :shrug: may just have been pronounced muscle pull or hip joint soreness :shrug: she doesn't appear to be arthritic in any way except for laying down after/during long laser chase session & her careful sit. Neither one really looks as bad as it may sound but you never know w/these cats :rolleyes: I may discuss this w/the homeopathic vet later this month - we'll see how that visit goes & I'll update

She has has 2-3 retching episodes in the last month about one per week but nothing has surfaced so I'm happy she's not bringing anything up therefore no water loss either. Duffy is so not a "hairball thrower" so it is more likely caused by a bit of nausea :sad: likely the drool cause too.

:fingerscr glad to say no more retching & no more drooling (except a tiny bit when she is :sleepy: - that's old age ;))

chico2
November 12th, 2007, 07:12 AM
Growler I did not realize Duffy was 16 yrs old:wall:,not that cats always show their age,but she looks great.:cat:
I hope she continues to do well:pray:
I was told my Rocky(11yrs old) might be arthritic by my vet,she suggested painmeds,which I declined for now.
He jumps,runs,climbs stairs stairs with no problem,I don't want to give him more pills unless I have too.
:grouphug:to Duffy for continued improvment:pray:

rainbow
November 12th, 2007, 06:20 PM
WOO HOO.....sounds like Duffy is doing quite well. :thumbs up :cat:

shredy
November 12th, 2007, 06:42 PM
So glad to hear that Duffy is doing well :thumbs up and what a purdy kitty I have to say :cloud9:

sugarcatmom
November 12th, 2007, 06:57 PM
I agree about the purdiness of HRH Duffy, and am also glad that she's doing fine. Go Duffy!! :party:

growler~GateKeeper
November 12th, 2007, 11:19 PM
Growler I did not realize Duffy was 16 yrs old:wall:,not that cats always show their age,but she looks great.:cat:

Yup my BabyCat is 16 years old - the only noticable (to those who know her) outward sign of her age is she now has 9 white whiskers instead of only 1 which she has had all her adult life

Duffy thanks ya'll for the compliments & good wishes =^.^= :D

growler~GateKeeper
November 21st, 2007, 04:55 AM
For all who are keeping up & those searching for information on CRF - CRF cats quite often have trouble with stomach acid-nausea (some symptoms incl vomiting, drooling, hanging head over dish but not eating/drinking, repeatedly going to the dish but not eating/drinking) that is part of the reason they don't want to eat, in order to counter-act this issue the food & water (when possible) dishes should be raised above the stomach level. This will improve their eating which I have seen in the past 2 days with Duffy :thumbs up.

Above the stomach level can be 2-3 inches off the ground up to 5-6 inches depending on what works best for the cat. This can be done either by placing the dishes on something like a phone book - providing of course the dish is prevented from slipping off, purchasing a dish holder something like this (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753771&cp=2767032.2767070&numResultsPerPage=20&fbx=0&fbn=Type+1%7CElevated&f=Taxonomy%2FPET%2F2767070&f=PAD%2FType+1%2FElevated&fbc=1&parentPage=family&keepsr=1) from the pet supply store or making your own.

I currently have Duffy's dish (stainless steel w/removable rubber ring that fits on the bottom - slip proof similar to this (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2751833&cp=2767033.2768973&numResultsPerPage=30&fbn=Taxonomy%7CBowls+%26+Feeders&f=Taxonomy%2FPET%2F2768973&fbc=1&parentPage=family&keepsr=1)) sitting on an upsidedown Wellness 12oz can 12pk case box - it is between 2-3 inches high & has worked wonderfully for Duffy - for the past week or so she has been leaving food in her dish (sometimes even leaving it overnight) & not eating it but would eat a bit if I held the dish up for her - now with the dish sitting on the turned over case box she's licking her bowl clean & asking for more ;)

Love4himies
November 21st, 2007, 07:12 AM
Thanks for the tip, growler, I would never have thought of that!

chico2
November 21st, 2007, 08:00 AM
That is a good idea Growler and makes sense.
With Rocky and Chico I now stay with Rocky until he eats the spoonful with his pill and I have to keep making his food into a mound in the middle,lately Chico wants the same service:yell:
He won't eat unless I sit right beside him as if he feels he needs protection,so feedingtime takes at least 30 minutes:yell:

growler~GateKeeper
November 29th, 2007, 02:13 AM
The homeopathic vet visit went real well alot of discussion about her overall health & lifestyle, did a physical exam including pressure points along the spine she was fine with all this until he got to the kidney area & she growled, then again but not as much @ the stomach area - her body physically expressing there are definate issues with those two areas, he expressed her anal glands - a depositing place for bodily toxins ~ so everyone reading this should definately have their cat/dogs glands checked next visit & expressed to remove toxins & prevent impaction.

He was impressed with her heart condition since alot of cats with, or who had in Duffy's case, HyperT develop cardiac issues - the HyperT often leading to or having @ the same time CRF.

He also mentioned she has very tense muscles in these energy-blocked areas as well - suggested both physical & needle therapy - something similar to acupuncture - this I will need to wait a bit on - Dec coming up & @ work it's extremely busy (6 day work weeks for the whole month) I can do muscle massages at home I can use some of the techniques taught by the PT I took my :rip::dog:Cally to. Releasing the deep muscle tension will also release some of the blocked energy.

Raw feeding was also discussed - something I have been mulling over for about a week - phos levels are lower than the canned she's on now. He is also against the conventional low protein theory as am I, which is one reason I will not switch to the prescription food.

I was given a single dose remedy to start her with then she has 2 supplements to take twice a day crushed in her food plus probiotics.

We are supposed to do a recheck in 3 weeks - of course that puts it in the middle of the busiest work month for me - so I may need to just do a phone consult for then & book for Jan recheck roughly 5-6 weeks later :shrug: we'll see how it goes

:fingerscr this helps & shows great improvement in her BUN & Creatinine levels http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/feiertage/feiertag-smiley-007.gif

growler~GateKeeper
November 30th, 2007, 04:01 AM
she has 2 supplements to take twice a day crushed in her food plus probiotics.

Should have wrote could be crushed in her food or just popped in her throat.

I decided against crushing & just pill popped her it's faster, there's 4 pills per day plus she already needs a liquid probiotic & knowing her she'd refuse to eat anything with non-treat "extras" added in :rolleyes:

Pill popping went quite well - she did spit one into my hand @ dinner tonight cuz I dropped it in the "wrong spot", she hates the liquid in her throat more than the pills :D

growler~GateKeeper
December 27th, 2007, 01:23 AM
A wee update......it's been 4 weeks on supplements & she into the 3rd week on raw food.

After the first week on the supplements she definately felt better than she was before - more perky etc

She loves the raw, started with chicken - easiest to digest 2 weeks of straight chicken & this week added beef so she'll get that 1x per week for a bit then I can maybe up it to 2x. Can add a 3rd meat next week.

The other thing I got her was a Cat Zoom Groom by Kong (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B00009ZJ0Q/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=284507&s=kitchen) for a nice massage after dinner, she's always loved being combed but this she LOVES :D

Speaking of treats if you need to encourage your cat to eat Kitty Kaviar (http://www.vir-chew-all.com/kittykaviar.shtml) is the thing to try!!! Affectionately known as Kitty Krack :D it can be put on top of their dinner w/no spacey kitty catnip buzz :laughing: Duffy has never liked any of the junkfood cat treats but this she LOVES

Recheck appt w/homeopath on the 28th & picking up a refill of supplements, not sure if he will retest her bloodwork but I am curious to see what the results would be after 1 month of holistic supplements & raw food

I'll update after the appt.:goodvibes:

rainbow
December 27th, 2007, 01:47 AM
WOO HOO for Duffy :highfive: .....glad to hear she is doing so well. :thumbs up

luckypenny
December 27th, 2007, 02:00 AM
That's great news Growler! With all you've done, I'm not surprised :thumbs up .

chico2
December 27th, 2007, 08:36 AM
Growler,that is great news,Duffy is certainly getting the royal treatment,the best of the best,but well worth it for a healthy kitty:thumbs up
Also a good learning-experience for the rest of us cat-slaves..:D

Love4himies
December 27th, 2007, 09:20 AM
I am glad to hear she is feeling better, growler. I am curious about her blood work too.

hazelrunpack
December 27th, 2007, 09:28 AM
WooooHoooooo! :highfive: You're both doing a great job, growler...you and Duffy both. :thumbs up

Tomorrow is your next homeopathic appt?

growler~GateKeeper
December 28th, 2007, 04:26 AM
Thanks for the praise :o, the support & the good wishes :grouphug:

I sure hope the treatments are having a positive effect on her numbers but of course there is no guarentee & no way to reverse the damage done :sad:

Yes the homeopath appt is today :goodvibes: I'll update after w/what he says & if there are tests those would come back in 2-3 days usually but w/holidays maybe more

growler~GateKeeper
December 28th, 2007, 11:22 PM
So our recheck was great :thumbs up YAY!!

No tests today we've scheduled those for 6 weeks ~ early March ~ that way it will be 3 months on the supplements & raw - that amount of time shows a better view of how it's working. This is also when her reg vet wanted her to be retested.


When he did the pressure points again, he had to press quite hard to get her to react to the point over her kidneys -> this means they are not as bad as before :D

The pressure points for her stomach/intestine areas also took awhile/more pressure than before for her to growl - the supplements & raw are helping to clear up the sensitivity/digestion issues as well......in fact he said that today it was because she ate too much http://bestsmileys.com/eating1/7.gif she not affectionately called "piglet" for nothing :rolleyes::laughing:

Her heart still sounds great & very strong :highfive:

pressure points along the spine she was fine with all this until he got to the kidney area & she growled, then again but not as much @ the stomach area - her body physically expressing there are definate issues with those two areas

He was impressed with her heart condition since alot of cats with, or who had in Duffy's case, HyperT develop cardiac issues - the HyperT often leading to or having @ the same time CRF.

He also mentioned she has very tense muscles in these energy-blocked areas as well - suggested both physical & needle therapy - something similar to acupuncture - this I will need to wait a bit on - Dec coming up & @ work it's extremely busy..............Releasing the deep muscle tension will also release some of the blocked energy.

The other thing I got her was a Cat Zoom Groom by Kong (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B00009ZJ0Q/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=284507&s=kitchen) for a nice massage after dinner, she's always loved being combed but this she LOVES :D

The zoom groom was suggested by the homeopath @ the 1st appt, he was sold out so I didn't get it there but picked it up @ the local supply store. Dr was very impressed with how well this has help the muscles that were previously very very tense - to the point of recommending needle therapy with the clinic physical therapist. Now he says she doesn't need the intra-muscle therapy. :highfive: Just keep up with the zoom groom :D


He also hand scaled her teeth (while she was awake) she behaved very well :angel: during that too - no way the reg clinic vet would've gotten the same reaction & she bites & claws me for checking her teeth. A conventional vet will not do this w/out anaethesia & a specific dental appt. It's a shame because so many organs are affected by bad teeth/bacteria in the mouth.

When he did the scaling she had 1 tooth which she reacted to pressure beside by "silent chattering" because it hurt. She has a cavity in that tooth, the question is how deep & how affected is the root/nerve system. She will need xrays to see the extend of damage. This is quite likely the reason she has been a bit drooly the past couple of months :sad: cuz it hurts. With the tarter off her teeth it will help to ease the pressure in the mouth. I know I must start & keep up w/the brushing which I have been lazy about :o

We will wait to check the kidney values before discussing options with the tooth because putting a CRF cat under anaethesia can be very risky, and we need to make sure the kidneys are stabilized before proceeding.

hazelrunpack
December 28th, 2007, 11:30 PM
Wow! Great news on everything (give or take a tooth :o)! Mummy is doing a great job! :thumbs up

Does Duffy like to get her teeth brushed? Sure would make it easier if she does! :D

growler~GateKeeper
December 28th, 2007, 11:48 PM
hehe Duffy would prefer to just lick the toothpaste off my finger, she's so-so about the actual brushing :rolleyes: :laughing:

hazelrunpack
December 28th, 2007, 11:51 PM
At least she doesn't actively attack! :eek: I can't imagine how you would brush a totally ballistic cat's teeth against its will. :o

rainbow
December 29th, 2007, 01:21 AM
Growler, what an amazing mommy you are. :angel: All your research has definitely paid off. :thumbs up I'm glad to hear that Duffy's re-check had such good results. :highfive:

I understand about the teeth brushing though.....mine are the same way and I tend to "forget" to do it. :o I just read something yesterday that may help. It said to use a Q-Tip instead of a toothbrush for cats as it's not as irritating to them. I haven't done it yet but it might be worth a try. :shrug:

growler~GateKeeper
December 29th, 2007, 01:49 AM
You can also use a piece of gauze wrapped around the end of your finger.....I think it irritation is most likely the little bristles going everywhere in their tiny mouths that gets them upset.

Will have to be more vigilant about brushing :o

A good lesson for all cat owners - have your vet check for reaction to the pressure on the tooth/gums and swelling/bleeding gums - it indicates pain/problems. Please be sure to brush your cats' teeth & have them checked regularly. Kidney, heart, liver problems (among others) can be caused by tarter/bacterial build-up in their tiny mouths.

rainbow
December 29th, 2007, 01:51 AM
I'd sooner use a Q-Tip in case they bite. :eek: :D

chico2
December 29th, 2007, 08:54 AM
Growler,sounds like a lot of good news,except for the tooth,you certainly are the best of catmoms:thumbs up
I am dreading Rockys vet-visit,he needs his teeth scaled,but the vet wanted to wait for his Thyroids to be ok:sad:
So far his hyperness(is there such a word:confused:)has not improved much,he eats like a piglet,just like Duffy but is not gaining back his weight..:sad:
I have never been able to brush their teeth,especially not Rocky and I am sure it needs doing,so I'll see what the vet says.

Love4himies
December 29th, 2007, 09:28 AM
Great job, growler, :thumbs up. You are such a good mom!

Frenchy
December 29th, 2007, 11:26 AM
Sorry I don't come come to this thread often , I just don't have any advice , but you don't seem to need any as I can see , are pretty well inform ! :thumbs up I'm glad Duffy is doing better :thumbs up

growler~GateKeeper
December 30th, 2007, 03:36 AM
Thanks everyone :o I just hope all this reflects in her kidney values :fingerscr

I am dreading Rockys vet-visit,he needs his teeth scaled,but the vet wanted to wait for his Thyroids to be ok:sad:
So far his hyperness(is there such a word:confused:)has not improved much,he eats like a piglet,just like Duffy but is not gaining back his weight..:sad:
I have never been able to brush their teeth,especially not Rocky and I am sure it needs doing,so I'll see what the vet says.

Chico - The Dr had Duffy wrapped in a towel sitting on his lap, awake, while he did the hand scaling took less than 5 mins. He mentioned he prefers not to put them under anaethesia for the hand scaling unless also doing xrays/extractions etc. Perhaps your vet could try this with Rocky also :shrug: :fingerscr

Duffy actually has a little of the opposite problem - she's a little chubby :o

I started the tooth brushing tonight, after her dinner, but before the Zoom Groom Massage so :fingerscr she gets a :goodvibes: about the brushing. Not to happy about it though :rolleyes:

The whole atmosphere of the clinic is very comfortable, not sterile clinic, soft comfy lighting, a couch, laminate wood floors (warm sense feeling) art on the wall, alot of natural wood decor. Duffy is way more comfortable there than @ the reg vets office. She even wanders around exploring the room a little, interested in what's here & there, not just running for the crate or door wanting out.

chico2
December 30th, 2007, 08:00 AM
Growler,sounds like a wonderful place:thumbs up
My old vet,used to descale my then cats by hand,she did not even need a towel,they just froze in place.
I wish Rocky had a chubby problem:sad:

growler~GateKeeper
January 13th, 2008, 06:06 AM
So far so good, Duffy feels great, she's eating great loves her raw & she seems to be peeing a little less than before :fingerscr this means her urine is concentrating better

Since I've mentioned them in other threads these are the supplements she's on PB8 capsules (http://www.nutritionnow.com/PB8.htm) (open & mix into food) it's yogurt :yuck: based so appealing to them. Duffy was prescribed 1 capsule twice daily - 1 in breakfast & 1 in dinner.

She was also prescribed Standard Process Feline Renal Support (http://www.standardprocess.com/display/VeterinaryCatalog.spi?ID=350) and Standard Process Feline Whole Body Support (http://www.standardprocess.com/display/VeterinaryCatalog.spi?ID=351) these are all natural supplements that include bovine colustrum an ingredient in mother's milk which is what most of the body's natural immunity comes from. They provide nutritional support to the organs & kidneys especially. These again she gets 1 each with breakfast & 1 each with dinner. Duffy is also becoming much better with the pilling....not too much pill spitting anymore but she needs to stop trying to bite my finger while I shove the pill down her throat :rolleyes:

I've added Lamb to her Chicken & Beef menu, can try her on a fourth meat this week - variety is the spice of life or so they say ;)

I can't wait to see the test results in early march & see what the blood & urine work reveals :goodvibes:

chico2
January 13th, 2008, 08:17 AM
Growler,it all sounds very complicated to me,but I am really happy Duffy is doing better,how could she not be,with all your knowledge,love and care?
Here's hoping for good test-results:fingerscr

growler~GateKeeper
February 7th, 2008, 05:53 AM
Haven't updated in awhile, Duffy's doing great with the exception of a bit if dry stool I'm thinking she maybe getting a little too much bone in the meals, so I'll get some meat only & mix that in. Plus she was eating Duck today & this has psyillum husk in it so that most likely contributed to tonights scare.

Tonight she was constipated :sad: very scary :eek: for a while there, she vomited twice before & after she was straining so I know that the reason for the vomiting is because she was constipated & not any other reason. It is common for the CRF cat who is constipated to vomit before & after trying to go. I had called the ER vet to let them know the situation & had called someone for a ride (:wall: no DL :o :wall:) while waiting for the ride, Duffy had her long awaited poop *phewf* what a relief that was especially since there was no blood & it wasn't runny or very stinky. So I called the ER vet back again updated them & asked whether I should still bring her in, the girl was great - ask how she was looking - since I, not her, could see her & how she was acting & said I could either bring her in or just keep an eye on her for the next couple of hours & call them back if need be. I felt she was fine @ that point especially since she hoovered up some food, just after that my ride arrived :rolleyes: Duffy was bright & alert, active & inquisitive so I told them no need to take her in, especially since I have Thursday off I can watch her all day - lucky timing I usually have Wed off. ;)

A half hour or so later Duffy pooped again a proper though abit dry poop this time. No attempting since so I'm sure she's cleaned out.

Definately going to get some boneless meat tomorrow to mix into the bone-in. With any animal getting the right combination of meat, bone & organ is key, all animals are different & you must adjust based on their individual systems.

Other than that she's great........blood & urine retests are going to be done in early March & I am just dying to know how her results stack up against the last ones.

hazelrunpack
February 7th, 2008, 09:05 AM
A tense night! :eek: I'm glad she was finally able to go. :grouphug:

You're doing a marvelous job with her, though, growler. :fingerscr for the test results in March!

Love4himies
February 7th, 2008, 09:56 AM
Yes a very tense night. Duffy is sure lucky to have you as a mom, you are doing a great job.

phoozles
February 7th, 2008, 11:56 AM
Great job growler!! You've got a good eye on her and you've become a kind of CRF genius since this all began! :thumbs up

So glad to hear Duffy :lovestruck: is doing well - aside from last night's scare, of course!

rainbow
February 7th, 2008, 12:49 PM
Poor you :grouphug: and poor Duffy :grouphug: ....that must have been quite the scare. Glad she finally pooped. :thumbs up

krdahmer
February 7th, 2008, 01:20 PM
I'm glad Duffy is feeling better! Oh and those baby Duffy pics in the Feb thread are so adorable!!! :lovestruck: I don't think I posted that there...

Is this raw you're feeding like a mix you buy frozen or something? The raw I've tried so far my guys hate (the girls I can't even tempt with canned). They even tried to bury it like it was poop. :shrug: I'm really trying to push the canned, and at least the boys are doing well with it... but the girls even if no dry is out for a day and a half, will NOT eat it. And I can't bring myself to let them go longer than that without eating. The good thing here is that they all drink a lot of water, it's always fresh and all over the house.

growler~GateKeeper
February 7th, 2008, 08:55 PM
Thanks everyone for the support :)

Krdahmer I pm'd you the info :D


So I'm pretty sure it was a combination of the CRF (the CRF cats' body tries to conserve as much water as possible & does pull moisture out of the stool & back into the body) and the perhaps tiny bit too high bone content in the chicken & esp the pysillium husk & bone in the duck she had yesterday. The other meat varieties she eats don't have bone content, so I have picked up some chicken & organ no bone to mix in with the bone-in chicken, thereby lowering the bone content of her meals. I think we'll be skipping duck for a while until she is properly regulated.

The other thing the owner of In The Raw (my raw food store) suggested was to add some water to her raw meals to make them a stew-ish (not soupy) consistancy. She has been drinking after eating which is great but this will add a little extra water to her food.

Plus add in approx 1/4 tsp of pureed Butternut Squash from either Heinz Organics babyfood or Earth Organics babyfood. Butternut squash works just as well as sweet potato & pumpkin but apparently tastes better :shrug: I don't think I'll be doing a taste test :p. Well Duffy actually likes the butternut squash - she happily licked it off my finger & wait for more :cat: The butternut squash will regulate the moisture in the bowels, if there is not enough it will replace it but if there is too much it will firm it up a bit. :laughing: Magic vegetable :laughing:

We'll see how her litterbox deposits are over the next few days :D

chico2
February 8th, 2008, 07:51 AM
Growler,do you think baby-food Butternut Squash would help Rockys runny poop??
I am waiting to next week to see what the new vet says,Rocky has had loose poop,pretty well since last October,probably a side-effect of the Tapazole and nothing seems to help:sad:

growler~GateKeeper
February 9th, 2008, 12:33 AM
Chico - yes it most likely :fingerscr will, it works the same as pumpkin or sweet potato but cats prefer the taste of Butternut Squash - even Duffy :D was licking it off my finger & has not problem with it in her dinner.

Pick up the small jar of either Earth Organics or Heinz Organics, use about 1/4 tsp per meal, since the food will go bad in the fridge before you use it all up scoop it into ice cube trays & freeze it. I found in my tray there was more babyfood than tray to do it per 1/4 tsp so I ended up with a teaspoon in most of them & 3/4 of a tsp in 2 spaces - it's easy to section cut the babyfood while frozen, then dump it in a plastic bag. Add to the meal & place the dish in a sink of hot water to warm the food up abit (most cats love warm food) this will melt the frozen cube & then you can mix in with the rest of the food :pawprint:

chico2
February 9th, 2008, 07:51 AM
Thank's Growler,I'll get some,hopefully Rocky will like it:pray:

JamesO
February 9th, 2008, 03:44 PM
Our mixed breed dog was diagnosed with very low kidney function at the age of about 13. We were told by the vet to put him on a low protien diet, so we purchased low protien dog food from the vet. We still fed him some meats occasionally as we didn't want to take too much away from him.

He lived to the age of 18 and we finally had to make the decision to put him down because he had difficulty getting up and even moving. His kidneys, though, were not an issue and we attribute much of this to the low protien diet.

Your case may be different, but maybe a change of diet will add some years to your kitty's life.

sugarcatmom
February 9th, 2008, 07:55 PM
Your case may be different, but maybe a change of diet will add some years to your kitty's life.

You might want to read the entire thread. Low protein diets for cats are inappropriate.

ReneeCK
February 9th, 2008, 09:03 PM
All I want to do is ask 1 question. Can cats or dogs eat raw or cooked potatoes? I was told once it can cause kidney failure? Is that true?? Thank You:sad:

growler~GateKeeper
February 10th, 2008, 01:38 AM
We were told by the vet to put him on a low protien diet, so we purchased low protien dog food from the vet.

Your case may be different, but maybe a change of diet will add some years to your kitty's life.

As Sugarcatmom says low protein is totally innapropriate for cats, and studies in the last 10 years also find low protein for dogs is a myth & is unneccessary. Duffy was eating the recalled Royal Canin vet prescription food and that is the reason she got CRF & I would never feed a vet rx food again.


All I want to do is ask 1 question. Can cats or dogs eat raw or cooked potatoes? I was told once it can cause kidney failure? Is that true?? Thank You:sad:

From what I've read potatoes won't directly cause it, many of the kidney diets (both prescription, home cooked & raw diets) have potato in them. Green potatoes however should be avoided, they may cause violent gastro-intestinal upset in cats & dogs too. The issue with potato is the potassium level it is abit too high, therefore to remove some of the potassium from the potato soak peeled potatoes in a large container in water for several hours, then cook them in fresh water. They can be fed raw (never green) potatoes as well - I would soak them too, & because of the high potassium - feed in moderation.

You can use the potassium level in your cat or dogs' blood test to determine if potatoes should be avoided or fed less frequently. In dogs with kidney failure some have high levels of potassium in their blood & should limit foods such as potatoes, banana, pumpkin. However some dogs will have low blood potassium & will need either a supplement or slighly higher levels of potassium rich foods.

Grapes & raisins fed in large quantities have been linked to kidney damage in dogs

growler~GateKeeper
March 7th, 2008, 02:44 AM
Duffy had blood & urine work done yesterday, just waiting for the results - should be in tomorrow. I can't wait :goodvibes:

We also have a recheck scheduled with the homeopath vet for next wednesday to see how she's doing, go over the test results & decide what to do with the 1 bad tooth (kidney values must be stabilized before any anaethesia).

Unfortunately I work until 7pm tomorrow get home around 8 so I have to wait extra long to see the results. I told the girl @ the reg vet (where the blood was taken) that the vet didn't need to call unless she saw something alarming in the results as I've become fairly good @ reading results & we have an appt w/homeopath next week anyways. If it's good results I think the reg vet doesn't need to take time away from other patients when I'm seeing another vet next week.

I had the girl weigh Duffy as well & she's dropped 0.16kg since Oct :thumbs up this is good she's now @ 5.48kg (12.08lbs from 12.43lbs)

I'm thinking I will do a full switch to the homeopath (who is also trained in conventional vet med) & not go to the reg vet anymore. The philosophy of homeopathy speaks to me & I "get" the whole package idea (energy(aura)/stress/food/chemicals/trauma/death etc all playing a role in the overall health of the pet). Not sure I could go conventional again. :shrug:

Finally, finally!!! got compensation coming from Royal Canin for the kidney issues - they are mailing out a cheque (takes 6 weeks?!?! from Ont :rolleyes:) that reimburses me for all the testing (not counting the ones from yesterday will send those in after next week exam) & exams including the homeopath visits. They will not cover the supplements because they are "not gov't regulated" meaning not conventional treatment methods :rolleyes: even after I mentioned due to the homeopath's treatment protocol & supplements she is feeling better :rolleyes: no such compensation for pain/suffering/emotional trauma etc :rolleyes:

Will update after I get the results from the testing :goodvibes: :fingerscr :goodvibes:

Love4himies
March 7th, 2008, 07:00 AM
:fingerscr:fingerscr:fingerscr hoping for good results on Duffy's bloodwork.

chico2
March 7th, 2008, 07:51 AM
Growler:pray:for good results:fingerscr
I'd totally forgotten that Duffy got sick in the contamination-scandal,she's very lucky to be alive and have a mom like you.
It's a good thing you at least got some compensation for all you and Duffy have been through.

hazelrunpack
March 7th, 2008, 10:12 AM
:fingerscr :goodvibes: :fingerscr for good results!

And I'm so glad you're getting some compensation for all the testing you've had done! :grouphug: It won't make up for the emotional wear and tear, but it at least helps the funding issue. Will they continue to pay for follow-up visits to the homeopath, even if they won't pay for the supplements? :fingerscr

growler~GateKeeper
March 8th, 2008, 12:45 AM
L4H, Chico & Hazel Thanks for the good wishes, vibes & prayers :)

Will they continue to pay for follow-up visits to the homeopath, even if they won't pay for the supplements? :fingerscr

I'll make sure they will when it relates to the kidneys ;)


So her results came in not too far off what I was hoping & better than expecting - you know the saying "expect the worse & you'll be pleasantly surprised" though I think it's actually "you'll never be disapointed" or something like that :shrug: :laughing:

The 5 main values to keep a close eye on are Blood Urea Nitrogen (BUN), Creatinine, Calcium, Phosphate & Urine Specific Gravity there are others in combination with these which can indicate a worsening state but these are the "most important" in dealing with kidney failure.

Test in Sept 07
Blood Urea Nitrogen 14.3 mmol/L..HIGH (ref range 5.0-12.5)
Creatinine 211.8 umol/L..............HIGH (ref range 83-181)
Calcium 2.45 mmol/L...............normal (ref range 2.26-2.74)
Phosphorus 1.23 mmol/L..........normal (ref range 1.07-1.98)
SG 1.038.......normal (ref range 1.008 - 1.060 normal is 1.030-1.040) lower the sg the more dilute sg of water is 1 this is bad in relation to cats' urine it's supposed to be concentrated

Test in Mar 08
Blood Urea Nitrogen 17.4 mmol/L.HIGH increase of 3.1 mmol/L
Creatinine 223.2 umol/L.............HIGH increase of 11.4 umol/L
Calcium 2.64 mmol/L...........normal but increase of 0.19 mmol/L
Phosphorus 1.63 mmol/L......normal but increase of 0.04 mmol/L
SG 1.031....................barely normal but a decrease of 0.007

Overall not too bad, the Lab Dr's notes indication the slight presence of blood in the urine they have indicated UTI though there is also the possiblity of hypertension resulting in blood in the urine. She also had the same value of blood in urine listed last time but it wasn't commented on then - this all depends on the Dr doing the testing it's their findings.

Duffy is definately feeling better, more alert & active, got some of her Tortitude back :mwaha: that was lacking a little the last couple of months. The supplements she is on have definately helped & she comes over willingly to be pilled (of course she don't get fed unless she's taken them :laughing:) Loves her raw food :cloud9:

Homeopath recheck next week I'll have to remember this time to ask for a blood pressure reading, was going to last visit but forgot :rolleyes:

hazelrunpack
March 8th, 2008, 01:03 AM
Good for Duffy for getting her tortitude back in action! :thumbs up

It'll be interesting to hear the homeopath's take on the numbers.

luckypenny
March 8th, 2008, 01:46 AM
I'm confused :o . Blood Urea Nitrogen and Creatinine is good when it's high? As for the calcium and phosphorus...the increase is good?

Great news she's feeling so much better :thumbs up .

growler~GateKeeper
March 8th, 2008, 02:11 AM
I'm confused :o . Blood Urea Nitrogen and Creatinine is good when it's high? As for the calcium and phosphorus...the increase is good?

Great news she's feeling so much better :thumbs up .

No, not good when it's high but I was expecting it to be even higher - basically the results came back better (not as high) than expected, the numbers are lower than I thought they might be.

The BUN & Creatinine are too high out of the normal range but have risen slower than the comparison between tests in apr and sept
The Calcium & phosphate are still in normal range but have gone up slightly, I need to make sure these don't go out of the normal range.

I would have preferred all the values to have dropped or stayed the same with the exception of the Urine Specific Gravity that one is bad when lower. I was hoping the USG would have gone up a bit meaning more concentrated, especially since she is not peeing as often as before which you would think that would show more concentration. She was peeing small amounts several times a day & now she is going slightly more volume wise but only twice a day.

Cat's bodies are designed to conserve water which is why they have a low thirst drive. Their kidneys will actually concentrate their urine in order to remove some of the water to use elsewhere in the body. Higher Urine Specific Gravity is better meaning more concentrated - kidneys are functioning normally, the lower the SG the more dilute the urine, the cat drinks more & pees more in order to flush the toxins from the body, this puts more stress on the kidneys.

luckypenny
March 8th, 2008, 02:17 AM
Thanks for the explanation :) . Would you guess that the reference ranges might differ slightly for a raw fed cat? I know it does in some instances for dogs but not sure about cats :shrug: .

growler~GateKeeper
March 8th, 2008, 02:28 AM
I have read that too but haven't yet been able to find what the ref ranges would be :rolleyes::frustrated: I will keep digging & I'll ask my Homeopath vet next week if he has a raw fed ref range that differs from the regular one.


LP, Hazel & TeriM Thank You too for the good wishes :goodvibes:

chico2
March 8th, 2008, 08:06 AM
Growler,Any improvment is great news,right??
To me with Rocky,improved testresults is like winning the lottery:cat:
Tortitude:cat:you go sweet Duffy:thumbs up

Love4himies
March 8th, 2008, 07:34 PM
That is great news, sounds like she is doing great.

I do remember reading somewhere that animals on raw diets do have different blood norms, but can't find the website right now.

rainbow
March 8th, 2008, 11:38 PM
I do remember reading somewhere that animals on raw diets do have different blood norms, but can't find the website right now.


I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere too....also it is supposed to be different with pets that are fed grain free kibble. :shrug: If I can find the info again I will post it. :o


Glad that Duffy is doing better. :highfive: Good luck at the homeopathic vet next week. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

growler~GateKeeper
March 13th, 2008, 03:14 AM
RC/Medical Dr told me they were sending the compensation chq to the homeopathic dr' office - can't mail to apt address. Got a call from the reg vet on Monday they have my chq - uh what happened to sending it to the homeopathic vet's office? Probably sent it to the reg vet cuz they sell RC/MC where as the H vet does not......oh well picked it up today.

I did ask the front staff @ reg vet to archive her file as transferred as I will be staying with the H as her primary care provider. Wrote a nice thank you card to her reg vet & said I wouldn't hesitate to call should I need her care in the future.

So just a quick mention on the website re raw fed lab results LuckyPenny did give me a different site http://www.homevet.com/petcare/documents/immunenutrition.pdf that basically mentions the same & I did re-find the original site I saw http://www.dogaware.com/misc.html you need to scroll way down to "Blood Test and Urinalysis References" then scroll down to "Effect of diet on test results "

So having mentioned that.......Duffy's recheck w/homeopath went really well, her *energy levels* surrounding her kidneys were great did not growl at him at all :thumbs up

She certainly growled alot at the intestine/colon areas (last visit was very minor growling closer in the stomach area) and I did mention the 2 incidences of constipation she had, the adding of both water & butternut squash babyfood to her food (After the 1st more severe incident I was giving her the butternut squash inconsistantly but after the 2nd not so bad incident she gets it twice a day) Dr says good for giving both those - what he does is cooks a fresh squash himself mashes it & puts it in the fridge then to give in the food. He liked the idea of freezing portions of the babyfood to add in when ready. Recommends to start adding flax seed & water mixture to the food as well - teaspoon of flax seed mix with enough hot water to make slimey but not too slimey :laughing: keep in fridge & add small amounts to the food - see how her poops are with that, the squash & the PB8, play around a little with the amount of flax seed in the food because it will cause the poop to be a bit slimey itself :yuck: but better than too hard. Anal gland expression today helped also. :yuck:

:laughing: He was impressed with the variety of proteins she gets: Chicken, Beef, Lamb, Elk, Rabbit (Lucky Girl he says :D), Turkey, Salmon I also mentioned the one time Duck but I said I was not impressed with the pysillum husk in that & (coincidentally or not) the constipation that night, I mentioned that I suspected maybe too much bone in the chicken plus the pysillum husk (which nothing she gets now has it) might be factors which he agrees. So we'll see how she goes with the added flax seed will p/u tomorrow.

Discussed her lab results he felt were very good considering her age, the renal insufficiency *official term for this stage of the disease*, her previous HyperT and the fact that most cats with her numbers are in far far worse shape than she is.

He mentioned the Urine Specific Gravity - very minor drop not that big of a deal (we do ideally want it to rise)

The BUN increase of 3 points over 6 months is insignificant due to the various factors influencing this number (could also be dehydration etc this number alone does not a CRF diagnosis make esp if this & the creatinine levels are slow risers if both rise very fast then yes it's CRF like our first test)

Creatinine value increase of 11 points over 6 months he calls insignificant to the progression of the disease, he has considered this to be stabilization not progression (unlike the 30 point jump over the previous 6 months between testing) again there are far worse off cats with numbers near the same usually their BUN numbers are also significantly higher than Duffys'.

Did not touch on Calcium & Phosphorus as those numbers are still well within normal

I asked about the ref range for raw fed animals in relation to the rise in hematocrit, BUN & Serum Creatinine. His experience in his work has shown the slight rise in these values of raw fed as compared to kibble fed has not altered any diagnosis because the difference in ranges is so slight not being very much higher than or still within the normal range for kibble fed animals. He does of course make note of which animals in his practice are raw fed & there is the understanding that the hematocrit & BUN specifcially maybe be slightly higher only because they are eating actual meat not processed kibble. In short the numbers aren't going to change the opinion or diagnosis upon reading lab results there is not enough of a variation for that.

I did ask about Blood Pressure Monitor he has one but it is at the other clinic he works out of because it is used more in surgery procedure where the patient is not affected by stress (cuz they're anaesthetized :sleepy:). He says the problem with monitoring blood pressure in clinic situtations is the numbers will always be higher than normal just because the cat is stressed from the travel & coming in to clinic. In the 20 years he has been in practice (both conventional & homeopathy) BP monitoring has not been a reliable enough resource to use it except in surgery situations - wasn't something I was set on just curious :shrug:. He said if I want to have her checked the reg vet will have the machine & I can take her there.

:D Of course he also mentions often times if the owner focuses on & is concerned about something specific - that will happen to the animal....self fullfilling prophecy, if you will, also one of the thoughts behind homeopathy regarding stress, emotion & the surrounding environment playing a role in health condition. :laughing: He told me I don't need to read anymore on CRF for atleast a year - to be very informed & aware is good but too much information & people start reading into signs that are not there or stress over things that probably will not happen anyways.

Prescribed 2 more doses of the initial homeopathic remedy she had in Dec - 1 for today & 1 in a month

Have a few things to consider if the dietary supplements don't alter her poops enough between now & next recheck which will be a phone consult.

As for her bad tooth didn't really go into it as diet & poop were a more prominent discussion, he did look at one of her lower canines which I mentioned is quite sharp - it's chipped but is showing no reaction when probed plus in animals chipped teeth esp canines do not lead to cavities. The tooth with the reabsorptive lesion is not chipped. I will discuss this again with him @ the next recheck.

H vet loves how Duffy is very calm even in clinic (actually the calmest cat he has in practice), alert & aware of what she needs in terms of her health ie she comes to me for pilling no longer running away *she knows it's helping her feel better*, she asks for the zoom groom alot (of course why wouldn't she - free massages :p), did not fight me when giving her the herbal remedy.

:D He also says I radiates positive energy he sees in very few people and I am more open than most - spiritually & emotionally, that I am very in tune with Duffy. I think the atmosphere of his clinic helps his reading of that too, it's not sterile, it's comfortable, calm not stressed like many reg clinics, the clinic itself has a wonderful atmosphere.

chico2
March 13th, 2008, 07:24 AM
Not beeing familiar with test-results numbers etc:confused:Duffys results were pretty good,right>
Your homeopathic vet seems wonderful:cat:
Not meaning to butt in on Duffys post,but if butternut squash is good for constipation,how can it help Rockys runny poop??

Love4himies
March 13th, 2008, 07:34 AM
Sounds like you have a wonderful vet, growler. What a good kitty, Duffy, you are making your mom proud.:cloud9:

sugarcatmom
March 13th, 2008, 08:13 AM
Have a few things to consider if the dietary supplements don't alter her poops enough between now & next recheck which will be a phone consult.

Have you tried giving Duffy a few drops of inner-leaf aloe vera juice (Lily of the Desert is a good one)? This can sometimes help improve motility.

plus in animals chipped teeth esp canines do not lead to cavities.

Not sure I agree with this, I think it depends on the nature of the chip. Aztec had a chipped canine that did eventually effect the tooth pulp to the point that it had exploded out the end of the root. It never appeared painful, even to touch, but by the time it got pulled it was in pretty bad shape.

I think the atmosphere of his clinic helps his reading of that too, it's not sterile, it's comfortable, calm not stressed like many reg clinics, the clinic itself has a wonderful atmosphere.

Sounds fabulous! If I didn't like my vet as much as I do, I'd totally check out a more holistic option. Problem is, I also love the fact that my vet is cats-only (and she has Feliway diffusers in every exam room!). There's a holistic vet very close to me that is pro-raw, but it's also a general practice.


Not meaning to butt in on Duffys post,but if butternut squash is good for constipation,how can it help Rockys runny poop??

The soluble fiber of squash affects the water balance in the gut, so if there's too much water, as in the case of diarrhea, it absorbs it. If there isn't enough water, such as with constipation, it draws it into the intestines from elsewhere.

chico2
March 13th, 2008, 08:36 AM
Thank's SCM,excuse my ignorance:cat:

hazelrunpack
March 13th, 2008, 10:35 AM
A glowing report!! You're doing such a good job with Duffy, growler. She's very lucky to have you. :grouphug:

And I think I'm in love with your homeopathic vet! Does he do dogs? Long distance? :laughing:

growler~GateKeeper
March 14th, 2008, 12:50 AM
Not beeing familiar with test-results numbers etc:confused:Duffys results were pretty good,right>
Your homeopathic vet seems wonderful:cat:
Not meaning to butt in on Duffys post,but if butternut squash is good for constipation,how can it help Rockys runny poop??

Yes Duffy's numbers were pretty good - the blood numbers did not go up very much better than a large jump like the last time. They are stable :thumbs up
He is wonderful :D
Like SCM says it regulates water volume in the gut if too much it will remove it if not enough it will add it - I call it the Magic Vegetable, Duffy gets some in her breakfast & dinner along with a teaspoon of water added, her poops have been alittle softer since having both on a consistant basis.

Have you tried giving Duffy a few drops of inner-leaf aloe vera juice (Lily of the Desert is a good one)? This can sometimes help improve motility.

No I hadn't heard of using that, thanks for the tip. I already have the organic ground flax seed, mixed some in & she ate it no problem. We'll see how the flax seed works, the next steps would be intramuscular needle physio and hyper-sensitivity testing of the proteins she's getting to see if 1 in particular is causing discomfort. I would definately prefer to relax that energy area & find out if she has a problem with 1 protein then we could fix the issue.

Not sure I agree with this, I think it depends on the nature of the chip. Aztec had a chipped canine that did eventually effect the tooth pulp to the point that it had exploded out the end of the root. It never appeared painful, even to touch, but by the time it got pulled it was in pretty bad shape.

Poor Aztec :sad: I suppose it is of course possible for any chipped tooth to lead to cavity, especially depending on the depth of the chip & at what angle too. In his experience/training the chips have never lead to cavities. Duffy's lower canine has a very small chip (around 1 mm) right @ the very tip that has a very slight angle down towards her inner mouth. H dr took the metal probe, they use for scaling, tapped on the end of all her canines & lightly scraped them too no reaction. Plus I often end up touching that tooth while pilling her twice a day also no reaction. Lets hope she has no issues with it :fingerscr The tooth she has a reabsorptive lesion showed a definative reaction to the probe.

Sounds fabulous! If I didn't like my vet as much as I do, I'd totally check out a more holistic option. Problem is, I also love the fact that my vet is cats-only (and she has Feliway diffusers in every exam room!). There's a holistic vet very close to me that is pro-raw, but it's also a general practice.

It is fabulous! :D I love the clinic & the homeopathic approach, I don't think I could go back to conventional unless in emergency situtations

A glowing report!! You're doing such a good job with Duffy, growler. She's very lucky to have you. :grouphug:

And I think I'm in love with your homeopathic vet! Does he do dogs? Long distance? :laughing:

Yes he does dogs. He also does phone consults but I think he still prefers to see them for @ least the first visit. Pack up the :dog: Pack & come on over :D

The front office staff quite often have their dogs in the clinic, as well as H dr's dogs, it's very cute they wander around saying hi to everyone & playing with each other. But of course if your animal is not comfortable with the dogs near they will kept them behind the counter.

Duffy is so funny she has no reaction to the calm larger dogs coming over to take a peek but she does not like the one girls' bouncy little blonde cocker spaniel. Of course she grew up with all large dogs some hyper some calm & my sister has a hyper little chocolate cocker spaniel which Duffy doesn't like :shrug:

hazelrunpack
March 14th, 2008, 10:31 PM
If Duffy isn't fond of :crazy: dogs, then perhaps the Pack is not the best thing to bring to visit. :p They were definitely wild today. :rolleyes:

rainbow
March 14th, 2008, 10:52 PM
YAY for Duffy :highfive: and :thumbs up for your H vet ......hope she continues to get good results. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

growler~GateKeeper
March 15th, 2008, 12:01 AM
If Duffy isn't fond of :crazy: dogs, then perhaps the Pack is not the best thing to bring to visit. :p They were definitely wild today. :rolleyes:

Big dogs that are :crazy: she's okay with just not the little :crazy: dogs :shrug:

3KittyMomma
July 27th, 2008, 07:51 PM
Happy Sunday to growler and other kitty/doggy Moms and Dads -

Growler - How is Duffy???Could we have a progress report on how she is doing, tortitude and all ???[COLOR="Magenta"]Hope she is "in the pink" and relaxed and enjoying life.Because you are so connected to your kidlet, if she is doing well, so are you, which is very important !

I have a funny story to tell you, and other Kitty Moms and Dads:

My 3 Purry Furries don't all share the same territory. Susie (my ostensibly pretty sick kitty), lives in the living room, with the door closed. Wally and Sheena wander around the house. When Wally, particularly, is out on the deck, with the screen door closed, I let Susie wander around the house.

Yesterday, when I came home, I gave them all a little dish of fresh BBQ chicken, one of their very favourite things. For Wally and Sheena, on the kitchen floor, for Susie, "in her room". Wally and Sheena ate a little of theirs and then both went out onto the deck (door closed.) Susie ate all of hers, then I let her out to walk around the house while I was resting.

After a while, I heard a little hissing from the kitchen, but knew that Wally and Susie couldn't get at each other, so paid no attention. Later on, when I got up, Susie was curled up on her bed in her room, I let the Wally and Sheena in, and we carried on.

The kicker is: Susie had completely polished off the chicken snacks of the other two ! (hence the hissing...):laughing: (So much for her being sick...!)

So, I guess I've learned not to trust KKs where other KKs treats are concerned! :shrug::wall::D Never a dull moment, right ?

Hope you and your Kidlet are doing really really well, serenely sailing through life. In holistic treatment, the serenity of the environment is of great importance, as you know...

Does Duffy need subcutaneous fluids? On Susie's thread I've posted a "helpful hints" primer, once folks have been trained to do this. I hope some people find it of assistance. Susie needs fluids sometimes twice a week, sometimes once a week-ish. It has been dramatically less since we stopped her pain med, and put in the homeopathic. hmmmmm :confused:

All the best, Happy Sunday, 3K:cat::cat::cat:M

growler~GateKeeper
July 27th, 2008, 09:11 PM
Duffy is doing great, loving her raw food diet - though I'm sure she would prefer less Bison :laughing: not too fond of the red meat unless cooked :rolleyes:

As of yet she doesn't need subq fluids :fingerscr I'm hoping that can be held off for a while yet :goodvibes:

The apartment is as calm & serene as can be made with other people on the other side of the walls/door :rolleyes: No loud parties or screaming kids running around. Duffy likes to go out on the balcony & watch the world go by :D, she has lots of favorite spots for :sleepy: & comes for cuddles often.

Duffy's tortitude ;) gets that grrl whatever she wants :D

As for the above posts re flax seed for motility it is working great, she hasn't had any problems with constipation since we started the flax seed :thumbs up so we'll see if she still needs a protein sensitivity test

Re: her dental cleaning/extractions - no issues there everything went great, no complications :D

She still demands! her Zoom Groom brushings helping to relieve the tension around the kidneys & she loves them, the brushing showed a great improvement @ her last appointment

We have an appointment for an exam, blood & urine work in early August so we'll know how her numbers are doing then.

3KittyMomma
July 29th, 2008, 01:54 AM
Good on ya, growler ! :) You're doing a grrrreat job ! :D

Comments/queries - How long has Miss Duffy been on raw food? Was it difficult to switch her from her previous food(s)? I tried my crew on it some years ago, due to advertised health benefits, etc, and they point blank refused to eat it, even snuck in with their usual food.

Flax seeds for motility - will ask about that instead of Heavy Duty Med for same, for Susie.

Re: Zoom Groom - a friend recommended I get one - Sheena loves it, Wally tolerates it, and Susie hates it. Go figure. :shrug: I'm glad it's made a significant difference for Duffy, though. :highfive:

If you get to needing sub-q fluids (hope not :pray:, but the old Boy Scout motto is good - Be Prepared), you have my :2cents:"user's guide to this particular galaxy", either on Duffy's site or on Susie's site, can't remember which, for future reference.

Your Doc Dobias is very wise - "the numbers" only give part of the story - most of the story you can see in Duffy's appearance, behaviour and habits. In any case, hope the numbers are favourable, when you have that done. :fingerscr

Take care ! :sleepy: 3KM:cat::cat::cat:

lm9012
July 29th, 2008, 05:48 PM
Growler:

As a fellow CRF sufferer parent I want to commend you on what a great job you are doing and the tireless research, time and energy you have put in to help Duffy.

My dog was diagnosed April of last year (around the huge pet food recall in the states, not the cause though). I was terrified..two vets told me to prepare for him to die, one yelled at me for not doing something sooner. I spent a $1000 before I even knew WHAT he had. Started with vet rx food, kidney values kept crawling up, moved to sub-q's and more wet rx food, numbers still crawling up, he became more lethargic..just sick..not himself..in November I found the yahoo K9Kidney boards and got to work.

Since November Albert has been on a home diet (mix of raw, cooked)..raw meats, eggs, squash, cream of wheat, butter, cream cheese. He drinks filtered water, gets sub-q fluids once a week, he's on supplements too (omega 3's, vit e & b, coQ10, glucosamine) and he has made a 180 degree turn on improvement! I FINALLY found a great vet (after 4 losers)..almost went holistic but tried one last time. Luckily he follows some holistic beliefs anyway...including treat the dog, not just the numbers. You couldn't tell Al had crf by looking at him..he's as active and silly as ever!

It is scary how little info some vets have, how counterproductive some of the rx foods are, I don't know what i'd done if it hadn't been for the internet! Scary that I paid all this money and in the end I had to figure it all out myself!! :wall:

I'm a huge believer that CRF can be managed, and that a healthy diet, supplements, even massages, can make a world of difference. btw...what is this 'Zoom Groom'??? I'd like to try it. I give Al 'wet heat therapy' with a heating pad.

Duffy is one lucky baby! I know how hard it can be to see your furkid deteriorate and no one is around to help you. How empowering once you do figure it out though right!? Makes you just want to :yell:

I know cats and dogs have different needs, Albert has flourished on a low phosphorous, high protein diet. His blood work (which we check every 3 months) looks better and better everytime we check. He gets no commercial treats, no bones, but I think he eats better than I do at times!! :laughing:

More than once I have caught myself skipping lunch because I needed cash to pick up Albert's groceries!!

You have done an amazing job Growler...now all we can do is pass what we've learned to others so hopefully they don't need to go through the scariness in the beginning that we went through! I wish you and Duffy the best!!! :pray: I'm glad you haven't 'needed' sub-q's yet..but can I just say that they are so GOOD for crf patients!! they kickstart the kidneys and I find Albert is more vibrant after! Sometimes i give them twice a week. I buy the fluids in bulk..saves tons of money. I got over the squeamishness of the needles quickly when it came to saving his life. I truly feel it helps. It certainly can't hurt..worth a shot!

btw..have you tried giving Duffy spaghetti squash?? it's SUPER low in phosphorous..Albert gets it everyday, next lowest is butternut squash but can be hard to find off season..spaghetti squash i find year round. I stay away from pumpkin for the most part.

growler~GateKeeper
July 30th, 2008, 01:06 AM
Good on ya, growler ! :) You're doing a grrrreat job ! :D

Comments/queries - How long has Miss Duffy been on raw food? Was it difficult to switch her from her previous food(s)? I tried my crew on it some years ago, due to advertised health benefits, etc, and they point blank refused to eat it, even snuck in with their usual food.

Flax seeds for motility - will ask about that instead of Heavy Duty Med for same, for Susie.

Thanks :) Duffy's been on raw for about 8 months now we started around the end of November 2007. I had no problems at all for switching to raw, she had always gotten some human food treats - cooked meats, cheese so it was not completely foreign to her.

Ground flaxseed will help to coat the poop to make it easier to pass. She gets about 1/4 tsp organic butternut squash babyfood twice a day to help rebalance the water in the bowels, this helps soften the poop. I have also found a little extra organ meat also helps soften the poop - not too much otherwise its runny. Feelgood treats (http://www.feelgoodtreatco.com/) are lightly seared, the Lamb Liver is very popular with Duffy :D.

If you get to needing sub-q fluids (hope not :pray:, but the old Boy Scout motto is good - Be Prepared), you have my :2cents:"user's guide to this particular galaxy", either on Duffy's site or on Susie's site, can't remember which, for future reference.

Your Doc Dobias is very wise - "the numbers" only give part of the story - most of the story you can see in Duffy's appearance, behaviour and habits. In any case, hope the numbers are favourable, when you have that done. :fingerscr

Take care ! :sleepy: 3KM:cat::cat::cat:

I did see that user guide Thank you :) I also have several CRF sites bookmarked.

Yes Dr. Dobias is great & Thanks for the good vibes on the numbers too.

growler~GateKeeper
July 30th, 2008, 01:39 AM
Growler:

As a fellow CRF sufferer parent I want to commend you on what a great job you are doing and the tireless research, time and energy you have put in to help Duffy.

My dog was diagnosed April of last year (around the huge pet food recall in the states, not the cause though). I was terrified..two vets told me to prepare for him to die, one yelled at me for not doing something sooner. I spent a $1000 before I even knew WHAT he had. Started with vet rx food, kidney values kept crawling up, moved to sub-q's and more wet rx food, numbers still crawling up, he became more lethargic..just sick..not himself..in November I found the yahoo K9Kidney boards and got to work.

Since November Albert has been on a home diet (mix of raw, cooked)..raw meats, eggs, squash, cream of wheat, butter, cream cheese. He drinks filtered water, gets sub-q fluids once a week, he's on supplements too (omega 3's, vit e & b, coQ10, glucosamine) and he has made a 180 degree turn on improvement! I FINALLY found a great vet (after 4 losers)..almost went holistic but tried one last time. Luckily he follows some holistic beliefs anyway...including treat the dog, not just the numbers. You couldn't tell Al had crf by looking at him..he's as active and silly as ever!

It is scary how little info some vets have, how counterproductive some of the rx foods are, I don't know what i'd done if it hadn't been for the internet! Scary that I paid all this money and in the end I had to figure it all out myself!! :wall:

I'm a huge believer that CRF can be managed, and that a healthy diet, supplements, even massages, can make a world of difference. btw...what is this 'Zoom Groom'??? I'd like to try it. I give Al 'wet heat therapy' with a heating pad.

Duffy is one lucky baby! I know how hard it can be to see your furkid deteriorate and no one is around to help you. How empowering once you do figure it out though right!? Makes you just want to :yell:

I know cats and dogs have different needs, Albert has flourished on a low phosphorous, high protein diet. His blood work (which we check every 3 months) looks better and better everytime we check. He gets no commercial treats, no bones, but I think he eats better than I do at times!! :laughing:

More than once I have caught myself skipping lunch because I needed cash to pick up Albert's groceries!!

Thank you lm9012 I'm sorry to hear about Al :goodvibes:.

Al & Duffy were affected the same time & started home cooked/raw respectively the same time. Duffy was affected by the Royal Canin food recall :mad: & she started raw in November.

It is very sad how some vets just don't put in enough effort to find treatments. I've been lucky though, the great conventional vet she was seeing referred me to a wonderful homeopath vet when I asked about non-traditional treatments & Duffy has been with homeopathy since - I won't go back to conventional unless in an ER situtation.

It is great to be able to find something that improves the condition of your baby & especially when the vet agrees & mentions they will recommend it to other clients.

The Zoom Groom page doesn't link directly so: Click on the link, goto "Products", "Dog", "Other", "Grooming"
Kong (http://www.kongcompany.com/worlds_best.html) Zoom Groom is a massaging medium rubber brush it comes in a cat version & a dog version. It has worked great to relieve tension around her kidneys :thumbs up. Recommended by her vet & he was so impressed with how well she did using between the first & second appointments, he said she didn't need the recommended acupuncture.

Please tell me more about the "wet heat therapy" with the heating pad.

Yeah I know how the food situations goes, I buy her food before my own, & hers takes up more of my freezer than mine does :D


You have done an amazing job Growler...now all we can do is pass what we've learned to others so hopefully they don't need to go through the scariness in the beginning that we went through! I wish you and Duffy the best!!! :pray: I'm glad you haven't 'needed' sub-q's yet..but can I just say that they are so GOOD for crf patients!! they kickstart the kidneys and I find Albert is more vibrant after! Sometimes i give them twice a week. I buy the fluids in bulk..saves tons of money. I got over the squeamishness of the needles quickly when it came to saving his life. I truly feel it helps. It certainly can't hurt..worth a shot!

Thank you :) I try to educate where I can & support all. We'll see what her numbers look like after the next tests in early Aug & I'll decide w/my vet whether I want to start the subq as a precaution/early helper. Of course I did read something about starting too early was not healthy for the kidneys cuz it overworks them :wall:.

As for all my reading/research....my vet told me "You don't need to read another thing about CRF for a whole year" :laughing:

btw..have you tried giving Duffy spaghetti squash?? it's SUPER low in phosphorous..Albert gets it everyday, next lowest is butternut squash but can be hard to find off season..spaghetti squash i find year round. I stay away from pumpkin for the most part.

I've never heard of spaghetti squash - I'll look that up Thanks! Right now she is getting the butternut squash from Heinz Organics Babyfood :D

growler~GateKeeper
August 9th, 2008, 12:48 AM
An update after our vet visit on Wednesday.....Duffy is doing great, Dr says all her spinal points and her kidney points are really good - no signs of energy blockage :D. A very slight sensitivity in the bladder. He said if he did know that she had CRF energy-wise he wouldn't be able to tell. Dr also said she is one of the healthiest cats he sees. Took blood & urine samples for testing, results are in - the lab is using a new chemistry analyzer which has new reference ranges - very very minor rise in the BUN (higher is bad) but not unexpected, the creatinine is a puzzle though nearly a 100 point jump higher than 5 months ago :confused:. Albumin was 1 point higher than normal which is rarely seen unless dehydrated & was normal last test.

Dr called today to discuss the results, we will recheck the blood work in 2 weeks to see if there is progression then or if the numbers drop back to a more "acceptable" level - possible cause dehydration although she has been drinking well & Dr likes her water balance. :shrug: Wondering about the levels toxins that caused this :frustrated: :yell: :mad: I've emailed RC about getting a copy of the toxicology report on the food :fingerscr they fork it over.

Her Creatine Phosphokinase (CK aka CPK) value was really good too right in the middle of normal- this sometimes will spike very high when animals are stressed by being held for blood draws at the vets. CK is often used as an indicator for damage to muscle, muscle breakdown, heart attack, acute renal failure {NOT CRF} but in most cases it rises only because of stress. You should see how calm she is at that clinic :cloud9: quite a visible difference from the conventional vets - not to say she freaked out there but definately wanted to leave asap, not so @ the homeopath ~ she's content to lay in the middle of the consult room just hanging out :D

All other numbers are great well within normal, most slightly lower values than last test - no biggie there, good actually. Phosphorus, calcium, potassium all middle of the range. Ca:Phos ratio not quite 2:1 but staying pretty close. :)

I asked what he thought about starting subq fluids, he said it is not necessary right now - her water balance is really good.

Dr checked her teeth & gums, no sensitivity or problems after the dental. I can start her on some beginner recreational raw meaty bones to help keep her teeth clean. Will pick some up on the weekend.

Was given instructions for a repeat of a remedy we have used before.

With the blood work retesting in 2 weeks we will be discussing further treatment options, increasing frequency possibly adding new ones.

Duffy's such a good grrl laying in front of the fan to keep cool :cloud9: not showing signs of anything wrong.

rainbow
August 9th, 2008, 02:18 AM
Is it posssible with the new equipment they used that has different ranges that there could have been a false reading for the creatine? :shrug: WOO HOO for the rest of the results though. :thumbs up

It's great to hear that she is so relaxed there as that makes alot of difference if a pet is at ease. :cloud9:

Good luck for the new test results. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

growler~GateKeeper
August 9th, 2008, 02:49 AM
Is it posssible with the new equipment they used that has different ranges that there could have been a false reading for the creatine?

I had thought that at first but, w/the exception of Creatinine, the actual values are the same or just a little off from the last test regardless of the slight reference range changing. And it's not all ref ranges that have been changed with the update alot are still the same or just a few points different, some with a higher difference. :shrug:

When I spoke to the vet today he wanted to talk next week about re evaluating treatments, then I asked about re running the blood test cuz I was wondering about possible errors, but he said the tests are really very acurate. He said if I want to re test we'll do it in 2 weeks that gives some time to see if there are any changes & she doesn't have blood taken too soon after this test. So that's where we stand.

It's an amazing environment I feel more relaxed there too :cloud9:

chico2
August 9th, 2008, 07:53 AM
Growler,that is great news for beautiful Duffy and her mom:highfive:

hazelrunpack
August 9th, 2008, 11:52 AM
Except for the creatinine readings, what a great checkup for Duffy! :highfive:

I know that cratinine is supposed to indicate something about the kidneys, but do you know exactly what it's measuring (I mean as far as function...since I know it's measuring creatinine :o)?

growler~GateKeeper
August 9th, 2008, 11:18 PM
Creatinine is a waste product formed by the breakdown of creatine, important for converting food into energy (metabolism). The creatinine is filtered out of the blood by the kidneys and then passed out of the body in urine.

Creatinine is produced at a steady rate and is affected very little by diet or normal physical activities. If the kidneys are damaged and cannot function normally, the amount of creatinine in the urine decreases while the amount of creatinine in the blood increases.

This is what is happening here there is far higher levels of creatinine in the blood than there should be. Especially since the BUN level is not increasing to the same extent - Blood Urea Nitrogen (a byproduct of the breakdown of protein) is affected by stress, dehydration, food, exercise, water levels, creatinine is not to any significant extent.

Creatinine is a natural by-product of muscles doing work in your body. It starts out as creatine phosphate, and it ends up as a waste product in your blood which is then eliminated in urine. This waste product can be easily measured in both blood and urine, and, because it is released at a steady rate by your skeletal muscles, it is an excellent indicator of kidney function. Unlike urea, which also measures kidney function to some extent, creatinine is only slightly affected by the meat proteins you eat. As a result, it is a more precise, more specific measure of your kidney function than urea is.

Creatinine is another waste product excreted through the kidneys. It is generally considered to be a more accurate measurement of underlying kidney function than BUN or urea because it is less affected by diet, stress and dehydration. In CRF cats, both BUN or urea and creatinine will be elevated to some degree depending upon the severity of the disease; but if BUN or urea levels are high yet creatinine is only a little elevated, it usually means that the cat is dehydrated, has gastro-intestinal bleeding, or is eating a high protein diet.

Because creatinine is a by-product of muscle, large, muscular male cats may naturally have high normal levels of creatinine.

Creatinine is the end product of phosphocreatine metabolism, which is important in muscle contractions. High levels indicate kidney failure or disease, dehydration, shock, certain toxin ingestions, poor circulation to the kidneys and urinary obstruction. Low levels indicate liver disease or starvation.


What it doesn't say is what is the reason for: BUN is slightly elevated, phosphorus, calcuim & potassium are normal, Urine specific gravity is good, no urine crystals and the creatinine is very high in comparision to BUN :shrug: Obviously it is toxic ingestion caused CRF but is there a specific cause for the creatinine to jump like that within the last 5 months?

Waiting for a response to my inquiry about getting the toxicology report from RC. I don't know if it will lead to any help but :shrug:

lm9012
August 13th, 2008, 05:15 PM
Hi Growler! Glad to hear Duffy is doing well despite the resent Creatinine finds. :sorry:

do you fast Duffy before the blood is drawn? I found that if Al is fasted, I get more accurate results. Sometimes the results would just be nutty and the vets always say not to worry about fasting..but if we should fast before we have bloodwork done...it just makes sense! eating a cookie right before can give you the results of a diabetic! so regardless of what the vets say, I always schedule the appointments for as early as possible in the morning and feed him around 10 pm the night before. I also don't give him any sub-q fluids a few days before..anything to not skew the results. So I'm glad you'll retake them. It's better just to make sure!

I only have my dog as a frame of reference...but this is what works for me. I'm glad Duffy doesn't need the sub q's yet. I wasn't aware that it could hurt if you start too early. Unfortunately, since Al's disease is chronic..by the time he was diagnosed (through routine bloodwork...he had no clinical signs of sickness) his numbers were fairly elevated..and kept crawling up. My vet would say 'this is normal, the disease is progressing, nothing you can do'..blah blah blah!! :shrug::frustrated: so we had to start the subq's fairly quickly.

Why is it then that since November Alberts numbers have DROPPED???? HA! we showed them! I know the disease isn't curable, and that eventually he will get sick, but I'm living day to day enjoying him and the numbers and his physical state don't lie. So I focus on that. Creatinine and BUN, and phosphorous have dropped. They are still not 'normal' but at least they are getting closer. He gets ZERO bones. Luckily Duffy's phos counts aren't high...so you don't need to worry about watching the phosphorous as much or having to use a binder.

Maybe consider fasting her for this next round just to see?

it is hard for me to read your results, since mine are tallied differently. We go by mg units here. Once creatinine reaches 3.0mg, the kidneys have lost 75% of their function, which is right where Al is right now. :sad: But I am very happy that things are being controlled for now and I know she will do just great! :pray:

All we can do is stay positive right?! How brave our babies are huh? I am in awe at what a good boy Al is, letting me poke him every weekend, sitting still for 30 minutes while he gets his fluids..he can be a brat about the pills sometimes, but we make it work! :rolleyes: The fluids truly help though..just recently he got into Khloe's food and had bad diarrhea & was vomiting..A good flush with the subq's..and he was like new! literally went from moping around to being all cheery and jumpy.

The wet heat therapy is simply a moist heat heating pad that I place on his body over the kidneys. It's supposed to relax the organs and help with tension and stress. I can't exactly quantify the results..he is doing very well and I believe it's a combination of everything and plain ol' luck. So I can't say, oh the heat is doing it! who knows! every bit helps though!

I had read about hydrotherapy helping dogs with CRF, basically running hot water down their bodies..I figured instead of wasting water, why not use the pad. Moist heat does get absorbed faster. My mom has chronic muscle pain and the moist heating pad is a godsend to her. He likes it! since it's more cuddle time with mommy! I am interested in that Zoom Groom...the hair is an issue for us anyway...so it would be a multipurpose tool! :o
I use the Furminator on him and Khloe right now, plus my boyfriend trims him up with doggie clippers every few weeks..it's barely controlled though. I've just accepted the hair! :o

about the spaghetti squash..it is a godsend! at least of me that I have to monitor every gram of phosphorous albert gets. If you aren't familiar with it, it's yellow and is shaped like a small watermelon. I just poke holes in it and microwave the thing..the skin is very tough to try to cut through to steam or boil it. It's extremely fibrous..so once it's soft enough..i can cut through it and just use a spoon or fork and scrape the insides and the come out like strings of spaghetti...hence the name! I always try to get the raw stuff...since I make a big 12 lb batch..it's just easier for me. That way I control all the ingredients.

Luckily, he really likes the recipe and I really don't change it except for the squash, he gets whatever is in season/on sale. He really doens't care that it doesn't change. Which is good for me. With prices going up on everything...it's easier to stick to the one recipe and it has become second nature now. LOL on the freezer being taken up by their food instead of ours! isn't that the truth!! I do sometimes wish I could pop open a can and just feed him...but he is worth the extra effort. It's hard on my hands to debone the chicken and most butchers only have one grinding machine and don't want to risk cross contamination with the chicken...so I sit there and chop it all up by hand..the ground beef can be a hassle sometimes too..since he needs the highest fat content possible. If you could only see the looks I get from the butchers when I'm knocking on their back door DEMANDING the 70/30 beef when I only see 80 and above!! They're like 'lady, you don't need any more fat..stick to the lower fat version!!'...then i say "it isn't for ME, it's for MY DOG!!" :p

Please give Duffy a big kiss for me and tell her that we are all very proud of her and to keep fighting! With her wonderful mom at her side she will be just fine.
Please keep us posted on her progress. We are all rooting for her!

growler~GateKeeper
August 13th, 2008, 11:14 PM
Hi Growler! Glad to hear Duffy is doing well despite the resent Creatinine finds. :sorry:

do you fast Duffy before the blood is drawn?

Duffy has never been fasted for test results, & they are always done first thing in the morning, she has breakfast about 4:30 am & previous tests were @ 8am at the conventional vets and now @ 10am with the homeopath.

Cats are not normally fasted for any reason other than pre-surgery. :shrug: When she had dental surgery in May she was fasted except for water & she vomited clear foam right before going into the clinic :sad:.

I wasn't aware that it could hurt if you start too early.

I read it on 1 site, the theory is if the kidneys are still somewhat doing their job, adding extra fluid via subq is making them work even harder :shrug: but then I've read accounts like yours where the fluids included given early are dropping the numbers.

Creatinine and BUN, and phosphorous have dropped. They are still not 'normal' but at least they are getting closer. He gets ZERO bones. Luckily Duffy's phos counts aren't high...so you don't need to worry about watching the phosphorous as much or having to use a binder.

Maybe consider fasting her for this next round just to see?

it is hard for me to read your results, since mine are tallied differently. We go by mg units here. Once creatinine reaches 3.0mg, the kidneys have lost 75% of their function, which is right where Al is right now. :sad: But I am very happy that things are being controlled for now and I know she will do just great! :pray:

Yes I'm very happy her phos, calcuim & potassium levels have stayed in the middle of normal range :D

Her results for the last test in US values are:
BUN 58.54 mg/dl
crea 3.64 mg/dl
phos 4.95 mg/dl
calcuim 10.16 mg/dl
potassium 4.5 mEq/l

Here is a great site for conversions: http://www.vin.com/scripts/labquest/converthtml.pl

I'm glad Al is so good about being poked all the time :thumbs up & loving the squash. I don't have a microwave so the baby food works well in that regard & Duffy started refusing to eat w/the butternut squash in her food so I keep it frozen & pill it w/the other supplements she gets.

I'll consider the heating pad :thumbs up hmmmm maybe even just for me :D

Please give Duffy a big kiss for me and tell her that we are all very proud of her and to keep fighting! With her wonderful mom at her side she will be just fine.
Please keep us posted on her progress. We are all rooting for her!

And you give Al a kiss from me, & the same sentiments to you. Keep me updated on how he's doing too. :goodvibes:

lm9012
August 14th, 2008, 01:18 PM
Duffy has never been fasted for test results, & they are always done first thing in the morning, she has breakfast about 4:30 am & previous tests were @ 8am at the conventional vets and now @ 10am with the homeopath.
I read it on 1 site, the theory is if the kidneys are still somewhat doing their job, adding extra fluid via subq is making them work even harder :shrug: but then I've read accounts like yours where the fluids included given early are dropping the numbers.
Yes I'm very happy her phos, calcuim & potassium levels have stayed in the middle of normal range :D

Her results for the last test in US values are:
BUN 58.54 mg/dl
crea 3.64 mg/dl
phos 4.95 mg/dl
calcuim 10.16 mg/dl
potassium 4.5 mEq/l


And you give Al a kiss from me, & the same sentiments to you. Keep me updated on how he's doing too. :goodvibes:

Growler: Thank you for the:goodvibes: and the conversions! The values depend on so much..the range the lab is using, the type of animal, etc, the diet they are on...etc. When Albert was first diagnosed, his Crea was at 2.3 and BUN at 51 and two vets at the hospital told me he was dying! Go figure! I've read about animals with FOUR times the values being able to recuperate and have the numbers go back down! The numbers kept crawling up though, and my next vet had the total opposite attitude of 'this is normal progression, he's fine, everything is fine.." which wasn't good enough either! :mad: The rx food and fluids weren't enough and the values almost DOUBLED within a few months. :eek:

The yahoo K9Kidney boards saved us, I truly believe that. They lead me in the right direction to the right sites to get info and it wasn't until we upped fluids and switched to home food, and added the vitamins that the numbers went back down. At his last checkup his BUN went down over 20 points, phos went down too. Creatine went down to 3.

Have you ever heard of Potassium Chloride? My vet has a lot of experience with feline CRF, his school thesis was on it..and he wants to put Albert on a supplement of it. He says there's research done that shows a decrease in the progression of the disease by simply adding pottasium chloride.

I haven't had a chance to start him on it yet. But I'm considering it. He said that adding banana or pumpkin isn't enough, plus that would add to his phosphorous intake..which i monitor like a maniac! so..he suggested I use it in pill form.

Just wondering if you'd heard anything about that. I don't use any 'modern' medical techniqes on Al besides the fluids. And even that isn't a lot..he gets 600ccs a week. Other than that, it's natural vitamins/supplements and homemade food and treats. He's due for the next check up next month so I want to see these numbers first. If the numbers are elevated then I will consider it.

Another thing is that this vet has an inhouse dental facility and he would like to clean Albert's teeth...he has some dental disease already. When I adopted him 3 years ago, there was practically NO white on his teeth they were brown and gross! :eek: :yuck:
The ASPCA we adopted him from was very kind and did a teeth cleaning a few months later for FREE..here a standard tooth cleaning can run up to $600!! So we were very grateful of course! and I brush his teeth and use all kinds of washes, etc...but the tartar is building up again, and his breath is a little rough...and I know there is a strong connection between kidney disease and peridontal disease. So he thinks that a teeth cleaning would prolong the disease even further! I'm worried about putting him under though! :confused:

growler~GateKeeper
August 15th, 2008, 12:24 AM
lm9012 here is some info on Potassium Chloride it is mostly prescribed for low potassium levels, is sometimes used as a salt subsitute in order to increase water consumption. Most if not all of the vet kidney diets contain potassium chloride, as do many non-kidney-specific dog foods.

http://www.felinecrf.org/treatments.htm#low_potassium

Slow K (http://www2.netdoctor.co.uk/excite/medicines/show_main.asp?id=2401) This site is directed for humans but as you know many veterinary drugs are derived from human ones. Slightly conflicting warnings here, to be used w/caution for slightly lower than normal kidney function & advised not to be used with advanced kidney failure.

Depending on the dose it can increase the blood sodium (Na) level.

Canine Cancer Awareness Kidney Diet (http://www.caninecancerawareness.org/html/Diet.html#ModifiedDietKidney) in the Homemade Cancer Diet potassium chloride is used as a salt subsitute.

I have something else for you I was so excited when I found this I don't know why I hadn't thought to do one myself :laughing: Some of my lab results I have a paper copy and some were emailed to me via pdf or img files here is an Excel spreadsheet to keep a chronological file all in one place. :D The reference values here are in US numbers - just double check them against the lab your vet uses.

Chronological Lab Results in Excel Spreadsheet (http://www.digitalcaptive.net/ebony/ChronologicalLabResults.xls)


As for dental disease, yes that can make a big difference with kidney disease & it can also lead to heart disease. Bacteria in the mouth, on & under the gums & on the teeth travels through the system into the blood (where it can affect the heart) & as you know the kidneys filter the waste from the blood so all that stuff ends up there. Kidney disease also can lead to ulcers in the mouth which would be made abit worse I'd imagine by tarter on the teeth.

Duffy (17 yrs old) had a full dental cleaning in May 2008 & did have a few teeth that had to be removed due to cavities, her eating improved after those painful teeth were removed. She has been cleared by her vet to start chicken necks to help with the cleaning & I brush her teeth a few times a week (which she doesn't like, but she likes the taste of the pet toothpaste :D) I was very concerned about putting her under for the dental, it was done at a hospital my vet used to work from & they were fully aware of the CRF. She was on IV fluids the whole time & fully monitored, she was given homeopathic remedies for pain management after & was fully recovered showing no signs of having had surgery within 2 days.

:goodvibes:

growler~GateKeeper
August 22nd, 2008, 02:10 AM
So I got the results of the 2 week recheck back, we just did the biochemistry part of the blood test - so not the full geri panel & we skipped the urinalysis since we know her specific gravity is good.

There was a dose of the same homeopath remedy we've been using given right after her visit 2 weeks ago. Her results:

Her BUN/urea numbers have dropped :highfive: we're down to 18.2 - still high but not as high as the last test (20.9) :D

The Creatinine is the number that dropped much more significantly :thumbs up we're down to 218 :highfive: (last test was 322, the one 5 months before was 223.2) so close to the high end of normal {ref range 71-203 umol/L} :clap:

Albumin same as last test just 1 point above normal - I'm not concerned about it.

Her phos number dropped again as well :thumbs up that was always in the middle of normal but now it's closer to the low end of normal :D won't have to worry about that one at all :highfive:

Spoke to the vet today he was very happy to be able to give me good results & instructed me to re dose her with the remedy tonight.

Will have another recheck w/blood work in 1 month.

The sad thing for me is my wonderful homeopath vet is leaving :cry2: he wants to dedicate more time to research & finding treatments/cures & to educate the general public about the world & treatments of homeopathy. I know he will do great work on his new path :goodvibes:. I will stay with the same clinic & see the other homeopath vet there.

Royal Canin/Medi-cal of course won't give me the toxicology report :frustrated: the Dr I've been emailing has offered to speak over the phone with me about it though :rolleyes: now to find the time

rainbow
August 22nd, 2008, 02:34 AM
WOOO HOOO for Duffy's great results. :highfive: She has done so well under the care of you and your vet :thumbs up which must make you extremely happy. :cloud9:

Sorry to hear that your vet is retiring from his practice but it's good to know that he will be educating so many more. :goodvibes: Hopefully you will be just as happy with the other vet once you get to know him/her. :goodvibes:

I'm not surprised that Royal Canin/Medi-Cal won't agree to give you the toxicology report. :rolleyes: So I would record the conversation with the vet when he/she calls. ;)

growler~GateKeeper
August 22nd, 2008, 02:53 AM
I am so happy :cloud9:

I look forward to the research he will put out & :fingerscr our paths will cross again :goodvibes:

I have no doubt the new vet will be wonderful, she is highly recommended :)

great idea to record, but how to do the whole conversation w/a cellphone? :shrug: it only has a 1 min voice recorder on it which will record phone convos but only for 1 min

rainbow
August 22nd, 2008, 03:17 AM
I'm not up on all the latest technology but I'm sure there must be a way. :shrug: Maybe someone here knows if you ask in the Tech Talk forum or else google it. :D

Love4himies
August 22nd, 2008, 07:26 AM
:) Wow, that is great news, Growler :thumbs up:highfive: Now we need more pics of Duffy to celebrate!:cloud9:

chico2
August 22nd, 2008, 08:48 AM
Growler,great news for you and Duffy and I agree,you'll have to get used to carry your camera around at all times and snap.snap,snap...beautiful Duffy:cat:

hazelrunpack
August 22nd, 2008, 09:02 AM
WoooooHoooooo!!! What wonderful results! :highfive:

Even though your current vet is retiring, I have to believe that he'd still be available for consultations if your new vet runs into anything he/she needs advice on :shrug: So it's kinda like still having him around. :D

great idea to record, but how to do the whole conversation w/a cellphone? :shrug: it only has a 1 min voice recorder on it which will record phone convos but only for 1 min

If you have a speaker phone function on your cellphone, all you need is a digital recorder. When the call comes, turn on the recorder first, answer the call on speaker phone and go from there. It helps if you can lay the recorder on the table (if you hold both, you get a lot of static), and if you can rig a cradle to elevate the phone slightly above the recorder (or can stand the phone up on its end) you'll get a clearer recording. Test your setup with a friend, first. (I use this to record convos with govt officials all the time...nothing like a little proof when you need it... :p)

lm9012
August 22nd, 2008, 12:04 PM
:thumbs up CONGRATS DUFFY!!!! :D :party: :party: :party: :party: :party:

We are very proud of him!! and of course you Growler! I'm sure you must be so happy right now! Isn't it awesome when you see that you are truly kicking this disease right in the throat!!

AWESOME!! I am really happy for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This makes all the hard work, dedication, sweat and tears all worth it! I cry each time I get Al's results and the numbers are lower, I just cry tears of joy and I squeeze him tight and he just looks at me like 'um, mom your getting my fur wet, what is wrong with you?' :cool:

:highfive: GREAT JOB!!!

sorry to hear your vet is moving on..I truly hope his colleagues are as great as he is! At least he's educating others..which is just sooo crucial with this disease. It is truly scary how misinformed so many people are...it's truly a tragedy! But when they see stories like yours..it can give other people who are just getting news of this disease a clear path to fighting back!!!

growler~GateKeeper
August 22nd, 2008, 11:51 PM
Thanks all :D

You have no idea how happy hearing those results made me :D and my Baby Girl is definately feeling better these last 2 weeks as well. :lovestruck:

I am so going to miss my vet :sad: I've only known him since Nov 07 but the guy is truly amazing there is such a "calm" about him. I know he will have great success in his research, teaching & educating others.


Thanks for the info Hazel :thumbs up - I'll test out a recorder on my computer ;) :D

3KittyMomma
August 23rd, 2008, 02:10 AM
Hey growler! Take a bow! All your exquisite care with Duffy is paying off big-time ! I'm so glad the second round of blood tests showed a more predictable/acceptable level of creatinine - WOW ! :cloud9:

I think sometimes false results can occur, and this may have been the case here, as all your other results had dropped slightly from five months previously.

It's great news that sub-q fluids aren't needed for her at this time. :) Check her a couple of times a week for potential dehydration, and you'll know if and when the sub-q will help her out.

In case of heatwave for CRF kitties, whether they get fluids or not - this is a Vet Tech tip - these kitties, in fact all kitties, get super heated - they don't pant, like dogs do, to cool off - so if the weather is really hot, and the cats are drooping, wipe them down with a cold wet washcloth several times a day. (Mine look at me like I've lost my mind when I do it, but they feel a lot better after...)

Re: a moist heating pad - you can get Thermophore - various sizes, not cheap however, at Shoppers Drug Mart Home Health stores. I have the largest one that is very long and can go down my whole back. NICE ! I hadn't considered using it with the Furries though, as it's heavy.

It sounds like, behaviourally speaking, Duffy is one very healthy kitty :highfive:- with those blood levels dropping as you work on optimizing her health. How are her energy and mood doing ?

All the best to you and your precious grrrl from our house, 3KittyMomma and :cat:Sheena, :cat:Susie and :cat:Wally

growler~GateKeeper
August 23rd, 2008, 02:36 AM
3KittyMomma - I had mentioned the possibility of a false value or a mix up w/numbers but the machines are very accurate. I think the rise in creatinine may have been caused by a few factors together & when re dosed w/her remedy it kicked the creatinine back down easier this time since all other factors were already dropping.

With the "heat wave" we had she was draped w/a cool wet towel much to her dislike :D Never really go to the point that I was panicing, she was still eating a little & has never stopped drinking enough (but not too much) water and thankfully she loves to sit infront of the fan. :D

Her aura energy is great all kidney points are purrfect, spinal points are good too. As for physical energy & mood both are wonderful, since the first rain she perked right back up to normal. :cat:

Duffy was re dosed w/her remedy this week & I have a re-check & blood work scheduled for another month. :D

growler~GateKeeper
September 24th, 2008, 01:04 AM
Since the last post here, Duffy has gone in for Gunn IMS (intramuscular stimulation) using acupuncture needles (a technique used to release chronic muscle tone and to restore fluid movement patterns) with a wonderful physical therapist. This is to release the blocked energy surrounding her kidneys, & stomach/bowels areas. Another session for early Oct.

Sunday was a vet recheck w/the "new" vet & homeopath, everything physically & energy-wise looks good, no dehydration, kidneys were palpated & are slightly irregular as expected. We rechecked the bio chemistry not the full blood work and another urinalysis.

Both the vet & homeopath were amazed at how healthy & active she is for a 17yr old CRF kitty and that she still plays :D They were also impressed by her self-confidence, @ one point the dr went into the back to get something when he came back he didn't fully close the door, we were talking Duffy's roaming around on the floor checking everything out & notices the door open. She saunters out & around the corner into the behind the front desk area :laughing: there were also 3 large dogs (staff pets) hanging out behind the front desk not sure if they noticed her or not (all are good with cats) & the homeopath got up & brought her back in the room, commenting on her curiosity & confidence. :D

So her Creatinine has dropped a tiny bit again @ 217 :thumbs up (last month 218), her BUN has gone up a bit :sad: @ 21.5 (last month 18.2) Calcium still in normal down a wee bit from last month, Phosphorus up a little but still well within normal. Her USG has also dropped :sad: to 1.022 (last month 1.027) when normal it should be concentrating at above 1.035.

I've upped her butternut squash from 1/4tsp twice a day to 1/2tsp twice a day to help w/the slightly dry poops.

We've added Nu Cat (http://www.vetriscience.com/nucat.php) vitamins and Liquid DMG (http://www.fslabs.com/vitamins-supplements/aangamik-dmg-300mg-liquid.php) (immune response booster to help clear the possible vaccine related seasonal itchies :frustrated: and help the kidneys) supplements to her regiment of whole food additives

Another recheck w/geri panel & UA next month after the next physio appt.

growler~GateKeeper
September 24th, 2008, 01:16 AM
And to add to the sauntering around big dogs story from above, I weighed her on the dog scale when I got there & she was fine with/ignored the large dog noses under the gate to behind the front desk.

When we came out from our appointment she was more than ready to leave, the cystocentesis didn't improve her mood (small bladder didn't help with the pee removal especially since she didn't want to release her pee for the needle :laughing:) made her a wee bit crabby.

There was an adorable little kitten (staff pet) playing with the leash of a small dog (client pet), Duffy's crated & she hissed at the little dog when it came too close :rolleyes: then later she hissed & growled at the kitten when he came to say hi :rolleyes:

She does not like small dogs she's great with large dogs (I've only had large dogs) and I know she doesn't like other cats, well apparently that sentiment extends to tiny kittens too :rolleyes::frustrated::laughing:

rainbow
September 24th, 2008, 01:23 AM
LOL....at 17 years old Duffy is allowed to be crabby whenever and where ever she wants to. :D

Glad to hear her vet check went well. :thumbs up

rainbow
September 24th, 2008, 01:26 AM
Growler, I just wanted to say what an excellent thread this is. It is full of awesome information and thank you for keeping it updated. :thumbs up

growler~GateKeeper
September 24th, 2008, 01:50 AM
Thanks Rainbow :D

Love4himies
September 24th, 2008, 07:24 AM
Glad to hear that Duffy is doing very well, you are doing a great job, growler :thumbs up :highfive:. At 17 years old, Duffy can be as cranky as she wants to little whipper, snippers.:laughing:

chico2
September 24th, 2008, 07:42 AM
Growler,although I do not quiet understand the lab-report,it looks like Duffy is doing ok:thumbs up
I think she has the spirit of her mom,won't let anything change her tortitude.
She must be so used to going to the vet,it does not bother her at all:cat:
At 17,she is an amazing girl:lovestruck:

hazelrunpack
September 24th, 2008, 10:59 AM
I agree! Beautiful feisty kitty :lovestruck: and an excellent thread! :thumbs up

You're doing a great job with her, growler. :grouphug:

lm9012
September 24th, 2008, 01:12 PM
I am thrilled to get this update on Duffy!! Awesome news! I am glad Duffy is doing so well!

I am currently working with a woman across the country with her CRF dog, I am still shocked at how little info is available from these vets. She, like you and I once were Growler, is terrified, shocked, confused, frustrated and lost. I hope I can help in leading her in the right direction. I also sent her a link to this post, as well as got her on the yahoo kidney boards. She is memorizing dogaware.com too!! :D

Her vet isn't thrilled about the home cooking, but at least he is willing to try it out. Luckily they caught the disease very early, and her dog didn't spend more than a week on vet rx food. She immediately put her dog on a home made recipe that I provided for her.

Thank you for keeping this thread going. CRF is sadly misunderstood and the more people out there get the facts, the better off their beloved babies will be!! :highfive:

growler~GateKeeper
September 24th, 2008, 04:28 PM
Thanks for the :goodvibes: everyone :grouphug:

She must be so used to going to the vet,it does not bother her at all:cat:

She is far more relaxed at this homeopathic clinic that she ever was at traditional vets office, to the point of roaming around the room investigating her surroundings :D

I am thrilled to get this update on Duffy!! Awesome news! I am glad Duffy is doing so well!

I am currently working with a woman across the country with her CRF dog, I am still shocked at how little info is available from these vets. She, like you and I once were Growler, is terrified, shocked, confused, frustrated and lost. I hope I can help in leading her in the right direction. I also sent her a link to this post, as well as got her on the yahoo kidney boards. She is memorizing dogaware.com too!! :D

Her vet isn't thrilled about the home cooking, but at least he is willing to try it out. Luckily they caught the disease very early, and her dog didn't spend more than a week on vet rx food. She immediately put her dog on a home made recipe that I provided for her.

Thank you for keeping this thread going. CRF is sadly misunderstood and the more people out there get the facts, the better off their beloved babies will be!! :highfive:

I'm glad to hear you're helping this lady & she is receptive to it :highfive:. Anything I can do, let me know.

I agree more needs to change in the way vets treat CRF as well as other conditons, things can be done to improve the health of animals with compromised kidneys while they are still feeling okay instead of waiting until it's too late.

growler~GateKeeper
October 26th, 2008, 11:19 PM
Duffy had her 2nd physio appt using GUNN IMS 2 weeks ago. She was far less reactive than the first time which is great, shows it is working & the energy & muscles are relaxing working with the body to help heal itself. Next appt is in a month.

Duffy had another appointment at the vets today. We didn't do any blood or urine work this time, we'll do it next month. She's doing good, her water hydration level is still good, no "tenting" :thumbs up.

However since she's been drinking more water to compensate the loss of fluids in her urine - not as concentrated as it should be so she pees more volume wise, Dr wants to start her on sub q fluids help support the kidneys. We did one session today, & I have the supplies to do it at home for the next 4 weeks until we see the Dr again - at that time we'll do blood & urine work to see where it's all at. I'll be doing fluids twice a week at home.

hazelrunpack
October 26th, 2008, 11:27 PM
Most of that sounds pretty good... How are you with the subQs, though--are they hard to do? :grouphug:

Glad to hear that she was less reactive during the physio appt!! You're such a good mommy to your Duffy. :cloud9: And she's such a good gurl!

growler~GateKeeper
October 26th, 2008, 11:42 PM
How are you with the subQs, though--are they hard to do? :grouphug:

I haven't actually done any of it yet, it seems fairly easy though. Guess I'll find out how Duffy likes ME being the one to stick her later this week. I was shown how to prep the fluid, how to prep Duffy & how to do it. I'm not squeamish about needles but then I've never stuck anyone w/one either.

The homeopath was there to watch how it's done along with me, the Dr came in the back to see how she reacted - they were amazed she didn't even flinch when the needle when in & it's a fair sized one too, bigger than vaccine needles & bigger than the IMS needles and she didn't struggle or try to get away either. I mentioned to them she does great w/the IMS too barely flinches there unless he gets a touchy spot.

hazelrunpack
October 26th, 2008, 11:45 PM
My lil sis had to give both her cats subQs. One of them absolutely squirmed and carried on and hated it. The other would run over for them when it was time. :shrug: I guess it all depends on how much they value the one-on-one-with-mom attention.

Obviously, Duffy loves her time with Mom :cloud9: so she'll be one of those to run on over. :D

growler~GateKeeper
October 26th, 2008, 11:52 PM
Well she's always been way better behaved in clinic than at home :p she's gotten much better the last few years though at letting me do things like cut her nails, pilling her, looking at her teeth without putting up too much of a fuss so :fingerscr she'll be good :D

growler~GateKeeper
October 30th, 2008, 02:51 AM
Duffy had her first at home sub q fluid injection today. The lady at the vets went over the whole procedure with me on Sun, even typed out instructions :D for me. She got my drip line all attached & set up for me. This (http://www.weirdstuffwemake.com/weird/stuff/pets/cats/sophia/catjuice.html) is a great site for how to (also posted earlier in the thread), the only difference between these instructions & what the vets suggest is my vets like to leave the old needle on after the injection, then replace with a new one when ready for the next time - this keeps the new needle in the sterile packaging longer lessening the chance of contamination *you must of course remember to replace with a new needle for the next injection*. There must be a needle on the end of the drip set at all times to ensure the end of the line is sterile.

Warmed up the fluids prior to inj, most cats prefer it to be as close to their body temp as possible, no fun having cold liquid injected under the skin :eek: - use the wrist temp like w/baby bottles to make sure it is not too warm.

Hung the fluid bag off the curtain rod in the bedroom where there is corner windows to amuse Duffy while she waits for the proper amount of fluid to run. After we were done she got a lamb liver treat & she was happy as could be.

Duffy behaved herself really well, she was great with the poke, she just squirmed a bit when I held her still till I got the line open then she was mostly content to stay where I wanted her.

Being that Duffy is also getting GUNN IMS needle therapy she is virtually non reactive to the needle itself going in. The Vet & staff all commented on this on Sun as well, they were surprised that she didn't even flinch that time.

As used by many kidney cat people I will be looking to get the Terumo Ultra Thin Wall 20 gauge needles instead of the 18 gauge ones from the vets. The 18g are used most often by vets cuz they are a bigger size therefore the fluid flows faster & less time is needed to contain the cat for the time it takes. The Terumo UTW 20g are a smaller sized needle but because the walls are so thin they flow almost as fast as the 18g, the Terumo also have a super sharp & beveled edge to make the sticking must smoother & easier on the skin. Cats have fairly thin skin anyways but easier & less noticable poking is definately better for daily, weekly or in our case bi-weekly injections. :cat:

One must also remember used needles no matter who they're used for are considered hazardous material waste & one needs a secure sharps container to be taken to the vets for proper disposal. Glass or very hard plastic container is best, you do replace the needle cap after use but it's still better not to use anything that can be punctured.

rainbow
October 30th, 2008, 04:22 AM
Awww....glad Duffy was such a good girl for mom. :angel:

chico2
November 1st, 2008, 06:20 PM
Growler,Duffy must be a wonderful little girl and I cannot say enough good things about you as her mom.
I cannot imagine any of my cats behaving as well as Duffy were they in the same situation,but you never know until you are faced with it.
:grouphug:to you and little Duffy.
My boys thinks she is a very brave and good girl:cat:

Chris21711
November 1st, 2008, 07:30 PM
:thumbs up for Duffy being so good in letting you administer the sub Q's Growler, amazing what she will do for a treat :laughing::cat:

hazelrunpack
November 1st, 2008, 08:22 PM
She's such a good girl! :angel: And, of course, her Mom has that healing touch! :D

How long does it take for the proper amount of fluid to be injected?

TeriM
November 1st, 2008, 08:26 PM
Wow growler, I didn't realize that was how you did that :eek:. When I did them with Bud we just injected fluid directly from a big needle. Duffy is an extra good kittie for being so patient :lovestruck:.

growler~GateKeeper
November 4th, 2008, 02:02 AM
Growler,Duffy must be a wonderful little girl and I cannot say enough good things about you as her mom.
I cannot imagine any of my cats behaving as well as Duffy were they in the same situation,but you never know until you are faced with it.
:grouphug:to you and little Duffy.
My boys thinks she is a very brave and good girl

Thanks Chico :D Duffy's always been such a good cat purrsonality wise even w/the Tortitude thrown in there :laughing:

:thumbs up for Duffy being so good in letting you administer the sub Q's Growler, amazing what she will do for a treat

Course the first time @ the vets there was no treat (she won't eat their treats) :D so she had no idea she was getting one. Happy to have it after though :laughing:

She's such a good girl! :angel: And, of course, her Mom has that healing touch! :D

How long does it take for the proper amount of fluid to be injected?

I takes about 5 mins for the 150cc's w/an 18 gauge needle - that's just from the start of the fluid flow to the end not counting prepping for the poke itself :D

The Ultra Thin Wall 20 gauge I want should have about the same flow rate but be a little easier on her skin being a bit smaller (the super thin walls will keep the flow rate roughly the same).

Wow growler, I didn't realize that was how you did that :eek:. When I did them with Bud we just injected fluid directly from a big needle. Duffy is an extra good kittie for being so patient :lovestruck:.

The large prefilled syringe is one way to go, using the IV drip set is another way. Depends on which way you, the cat & your vet is more comfortable doing.

She is very good during her fluid therapy :D

growler~GateKeeper
November 23rd, 2008, 11:49 PM
Update from today's visit, we got blood & urine samples for testing. I got the pleasure :yuck: of collecting the urine sample myself @ home, they have this neat little special catlitter that doesn't absorb anything :cool:. Called "nosorb" it's completely sterile and hey bonus - comes in a little cup that is perfect for returning the sample back to the vets :lightbulb:

Results back either Mon or more likely Tues. :goodvibes:

We've upped her fluids from 150mls twice a week up to 150mls every other day. This is inpart due to her excessive drinking and also to give more support to the kidneys flushing more toxins without as much work involved from them.

Everyone at the vets office is amazed at how well she is doing considering everything she's been through :)

She's eating great, energy is great, happy little grrl :cat:

Duffy got to say hi touch noses with a beautiful Samoyed :dog: a pet of one of the staff at the vets office :lovestruck:

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2008, 12:04 AM
Wow! And she didn't even growl at the doggie? What a good gurl!!! :cloud9:

:goodvibes: for good numbers when the results come back! :fingerscr

growler~GateKeeper
November 24th, 2008, 12:23 AM
Wow! And she didn't even growl at the doggie? What a good gurl!!! :cloud9:

:laughing: She hissed & growled a little bit at the doggie after first saying hi when he got a bit too pushy right in her face. He was so cute :lovestruck: so sweet :lovestruck: just wanted to see the kitty :cloud9:

chico2
November 24th, 2008, 07:53 AM
Duffy is doing sooo good,because she's a very brave little girl and has a wonderful mom,who'd do anything possible for her:lovestruck:

Love4himies
November 24th, 2008, 08:18 AM
Awwww Duffy was kissed by a doggie :lovestruck: :cloud9:

How did Duffy like the nosorb? I tried that with Puddles, but ended up having to follow her with the nosorb and kitten litter pan to her litter box, wait for her to start peeing then quickly pick her up and put her in the kitten litter box mid pee.:D

I hope she once again gets some good results :fingerscr :goodvibes:

14+kitties
November 24th, 2008, 08:28 AM
Wow! That Nosorb sounds great for collecting urine. Might be fun to do though. :rolleyes:
Duffy is doing well. The love you have for your grrl shows through so very clearly! :cloud9:

growler~GateKeeper
November 25th, 2008, 12:36 AM
How did Duffy like the nosorb?

She wasn't impressed :rolleyes: :laughing:. Duffy is quite picky about her litterbox and would prefer nobody being around watching while she goes. I put in the nosorb then put the edge of the litter catcher mat under the box so was slanted, then shook the nosorb litter a litter more down to the lower end. This way she wouldn't be stepping in it.

When morning came & she had to go, Duffy stepped into the box turned around stepped out, looked at the funny litter then got back in, did her duty, stepped out and went :confused: WTF???? this stuff isn't doing anything? :confused::cat:

That's when I shooed her out & collected her deposit for the vet :D

Results not back yet, will get them tomorrow :goodvibes:

Chris21711
November 25th, 2008, 10:26 AM
Good vibes for Duffy's results Growler. The pic you posted on the tjt was :cloud9:

hazelrunpack
November 25th, 2008, 11:26 AM
:goodvibes: for good results! I agree with Chris about that pic of Duffy...she's so dreamy :flirt: What a purrrrrrdy gurrrrrrl :cloud9:

growler~GateKeeper
November 26th, 2008, 01:58 AM
Results not back yet, will get them tomorrow :goodvibes:

Didn't get the call today :shrug: will call them tomorrow to see what's up.

Thanks for the compliments on my grrl. :D


Did another round of fluids today, she's getting so used to them, such a good grrl :cat:

Love4himies
November 26th, 2008, 07:17 AM
Oh another day's wait. Sending :goodvibes: that her results will be good. :grouphug:

growler~GateKeeper
November 26th, 2008, 10:42 PM
These were the results from the last test in Sept:

So her Creatinine has dropped a tiny bit again @ 217 :thumbs up (last month 218), her BUN has gone up a bit :sad: @ 21.5 (last month 18.2) Calcium still in normal down a wee bit from last month, Phosphorus up a little but still well within normal. Her USG has also dropped :sad: to 1.022

I got the results back from this month's test:
BUN 25.1 still rising :sad:
Creatinine 268 big jump from 2 months ago :sad:
Phosphorus 1.41 still well within normal
Calcuim 2.6 still well within normal
USG 1.020 still dropping :sad: but not as much as it did between the previous two tests

hazelrunpack
November 26th, 2008, 10:49 PM
Aw...sorry the numbers weren't better, growler :grouphug: but she's still doing so good! She's really hanging in there with help from her very excellent mama! :thumbs up She wouldn't be doing near as good if you hadn't gone to bat for her like you did! :grouphug:

growler~GateKeeper
November 26th, 2008, 11:42 PM
:) Thanks Hazel :grouphug:

sugarcatmom
November 27th, 2008, 01:27 AM
You know what they say: look at the cat, not the numbers. Hazelrunpack is right, Duffy is still rockin' it. You 2 are an inspiration and a testament to the human-animal bond. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/hug011.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

chico2
November 27th, 2008, 07:27 AM
Growler,forgive my ignorance,but what do all these numbers mean to Duffy??
She looks wonderful:lovestruck:

Love4himies
November 27th, 2008, 07:28 AM
I am sorry to hear the boodwork wasn't better, growler. Duffy couldn't ask for a better mom. :grouphug:

Chris21711
November 27th, 2008, 12:14 PM
Growler,forgive my ignorance,but what do all these numbers mean to Duffy??
She looks wonderful:lovestruck:

I'm with Chico on this Growler, completely clueless as to what it all means. If you have the time, I'd appreciate understanding it a little better..

She does look oh so good growler, never would know she has anything wrong with her. She is beautiful :lovestruck::cat:

rainbow
November 27th, 2008, 03:12 PM
I'm not completely sure but I think if both the BUN and Creatinine numbers are elevated it indicates kidney failure. :sad: :grouphug:

But, as everyone has already said, Duffy still looks really great :lovestruck: and she couldn't have a better mom to look after her. :angel: :thumbs up

growler~GateKeeper
November 28th, 2008, 01:40 AM
You know what they say: look at the cat, not the numbers. Hazelrunpack is right, Duffy is still rockin' it. You 2 are an inspiration and a testament to the human-animal bond. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/hug011.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Yeah I know the mantra 'treat the cat not the numbers' and that's what my vet & I are doing , but sometimes it can get so d@mn depressing watching the blood numbers rise & the urine numbers fall. Thanks SCM :), yes she is doing wonderfully.

Growler,forgive my ignorance,but what do all these numbers mean to Duffy??
She looks wonderful:lovestruck:

I'm with Chico on this Growler, completely clueless as to what it all means. If you have the time, I'd appreciate understanding it a little better..

She does look oh so good growler, never would know she has anything wrong with her. She is beautiful :lovestruck::cat:

I'm not completely sure but I think if both the BUN and Creatinine numbers are elevated it indicates kidney failure. :sad: :grouphug:

But, as everyone has already said, Duffy still looks really great :lovestruck: and she couldn't have a better mom to look after her. :angel: :thumbs up

Thank you SCM, Chico, L4H, Chris & Rainbow for the compliments & good wishes :grouphug:

Rainbow is correct the rise in both BUN and Creatinine means the kidneys are not functioning as they should be.

Toxins in the body (excess urea, nitrogen, phosphorus, calcium, creatinine{not all these substances are bad just in too high volume they can be}) are filtered out by the kidneys what isn't dumped in to urine is recycled back through the blood - same as people. The only difference is cats' kidneys concentrate the urine by removing as much water as they can to put back into the body, one reason they normally don't drink much. When the numbers continually rise it indicates there are more toxins than the body can expell, the urine is not concentrating as well {this is the lower USG number} so it takes drinking excess amounts of water to remove the waste from the body.

BUN = Blood Urea Nitrogen the amount of nitrogen waste products in the blood that comes from urea {urine}.
Creatinine = another waste product, a by-product of muscle. This value is not really affected by diet, stress or dehydration {BUN is abit more affected by those 3 factors} so to drop the creatinine number is not very easy.
USG = Urine Specific Gravity shows the amount of concentration of urine. Water has a specific gravity of 1. A cats' urine should have a SG of 1.040 to 1.060 anything less than 1.040 indicates a problem. In a cat receiving regular fluid therapy this test is not as reliable because you are putting even more fluids into the body than they would drink.

For Duffy this means there are more toxins in her blood, which the every other day fluid therapy is helping to remove. It is good that her vet increased the frequency of fluids now. I know these numbers are not extreme highs but I would like to try to keep them as low as possible for as long as possible, so the kidneys are functioning as good as they can for longer without working too hard. Physically she's doing great, she just drinks alot & pees alot and her energy level is better after getting fluids than before.

She's used to having them so often now that she was purring during her fluids tonite. Duffy is so good :angel:

chico2
November 28th, 2008, 07:11 AM
Thank you for explaining Growler,it all sounds very complicated,but you certainly know what you are talking about.
I am sorry about the set-back,but we know one thing for sure little Duffy could not be in better hands and I think she knows it,being a good girl taking all these treatments with a sweet purr:lovestruck:

Chris21711
November 28th, 2008, 05:52 PM
She's used to having them so often now that she was purring during her fluids tonite. Duffy is so good :angel:

She is better than good Growler, it is fantastic how well she accomodates you in letting you do this to her :cloud9:

Thanks for the explanation Growler, it is nice to be able to understand rather than read a bunch of numbers and think, oh ok :confused:

14+kitties
November 28th, 2008, 06:34 PM
Growler - your love and commitment to Duffy is amazing to witness. I can only hope if I was in your situation I would be able to do half of what you do for your grrl. :thumbs up, :highfive: and :grouphug: to you for what you do for Duffy!

growler~GateKeeper
November 29th, 2008, 12:17 AM
Thanks Chico, Chris & 14+ :grouphug: I'm sure in a similiar situation you would do the same :)

Duffy means the world to me :lovestruck:

growler~GateKeeper
February 6th, 2009, 03:48 AM
So it's been nearly 3 months since the last update, thought I'd mention how it's going.

Next vet appt & testing is for the end of the month, next IMS physio appt also for the end of the month. At the last IMS appt in mid Jan her physiotherapist said Duffy was doing really well, becoming less & less reactive, so we're stretching out appts to every 6 wks from every 4 weeks.

Overall she's been doing great still bright active and alert, I've discovered she prefers laying on my lap for the fluids & will stay still much longer/better that way. It's all become so routine for her :pawprint:

The addtion of the salmon oil has really improved her pooping & her coat is softer than before. Very very rarely does she have dry poop or any difficulty pooping now :thumbs up

She's eating great :D though I think a little tired of the lamb (lowest in phos so I probably tried to feed it too often :rolleyes:) so I've taken lamb off the menu for 2 weeks then will reintroduce it again & hopefully she appreciates having it back again by eating it with gusto :fingerscr

With the increase in fluids at the last appt (still @ 150ml every other day), her water drinking has decreased :thumbs up which shows the fluids working.

She's still getting all her supplements & taking them all with no problems, the cat who used to spit pills out is now the easiest cat in the world to pill :highfive: :laughing:

No vomiting except for the occasional small hairball - she is in winter coat shedding season now, so she gets combed before being Zoom Groom brushed which puts her on :cloud9:

The lady herself:
"You with that camera in my face again :rolleyes:"
48048

rainbow
February 6th, 2009, 03:57 AM
What a wonderful update for purrty Ms Duffy. :thumbs up

Love4himies
February 6th, 2009, 08:15 AM
I am so glad she is doing well, growler. But of course she has such a great mommy how could she not.

chico2
February 6th, 2009, 09:03 AM
Growler,it's strange,I was just thinking of Duffy this morning,was going to ask how she's doing and here you are with an update,good one to boot:thumbs up
Great pic of her sweet face:lovestruck:

lm9012
February 6th, 2009, 06:42 PM
Thanks for the update Growler! Glad to see Duffy is doing so well and of course that she has adjusted so well to the fluid therapy. I've always found it is harder on us than them adjusting to poking them, etc. To this day I still cringe when I do it, but Albert just looks up at me with his big brown eyes like saying 'It's Ok mommy'. :lovestruck: Actually the pic on my avatar above is him getting his fluids! probably can't see, but that's a big ol' lump of fluid behind his head! this is his typical stance, such a good boy just waiting patiently...it's amazing how strong and resilient they are isn't it?? :)

How are you getting the fluids? through the vets?

In case you didn't know, check around the local pharmacies and see if they carry the fluids and needles. You'd be so surprised at how much you can save by buying the case of fluids.

I used to get two bags of fluid, several needles and an IV drip tube for about $30 at the vets. Now I get a case of a dozen bags of Lactated Ringers (fluid) for around $24, a box of 100 18-g needles (Haveheard a lot about the Terumos' haven't tried them yet) for around $5, and the tubes run me around another $10.00!

I'm learning to always check with the local pharmacies for meds..especially nowadays that they have those $4 generics at Kmart, Walmart, and Target. Albert has some issues with his eye right now, and I saved over $50 buying his eyedrops and ointments at Costco. Even if the local pharmacies don't carry it, you can buy the stuff online too for cheaper. I always ask for a prescription instead of buying them at the vets.

I rather have my money towards making my baby happy and staying healthy so we can keep kicking CRF's butt!!
Again..congrats and best wishes!! :pray:

badger
February 6th, 2009, 07:38 PM
What a soulful face. How could anyone resist her?

hazelrunpack
February 6th, 2009, 08:59 PM
Purrrrrrdy Duffy :flirt:

Glad to hear she's doing so well, growler! :thumbs up

growler~GateKeeper
February 7th, 2009, 12:07 AM
Thanks everyone :D

Thanks for the update Growler! Glad to see Duffy is doing so well and of course that she has adjusted so well to the fluid therapy. I've always found it is harder on us than them adjusting to poking them, etc. To this day I still cringe when I do it, but Albert just looks up at me with his big brown eyes like saying 'It's Ok mommy'. :lovestruck: Actually the pic on my avatar above is him getting his fluids! probably can't see, but that's a big ol' lump of fluid behind his head! this is his typical stance, such a good boy just waiting patiently...it's amazing how strong and resilient they are isn't it?? :)

How are you getting the fluids? through the vets?

In case you didn't know, check around the local pharmacies and see if they carry the fluids and needles. You'd be so surprised at how much you can save by buying the case of fluids.

I used to get two bags of fluid, several needles and an IV drip tube for about $30 at the vets. Now I get a case of a dozen bags of Lactated Ringers (fluid) for around $24, a box of 100 18-g needles (Haveheard a lot about the Terumos' haven't tried them yet) for around $5, and the tubes run me around another $10.00!

I'm learning to always check with the local pharmacies for meds..especially nowadays that they have those $4 generics at Kmart, Walmart, and Target. Albert has some issues with his eye right now, and I saved over $50 buying his eyedrops and ointments at Costco. Even if the local pharmacies don't carry it, you can buy the stuff online too for cheaper. I always ask for a prescription instead of buying them at the vets.

I rather have my money towards making my baby happy and staying healthy so we can keep kicking CRF's butt!!
Again..congrats and best wishes!! :pray:

lm9012 Yeah I see Albert's fluid lump there - what a good boy staying for mum :cloud9:

They sure are strong, resilient & so very patient with the whole process too, just amazing :pawprint:

There is a local medical supply company in the next town over from me that does not sell to the public but supplies to doctors & physiotherapists, though they also have an over counter sales for CRF kitties :D So I get them cheaper than if I bought from the vets or the pharmacy. $5.15CDN per LRS bag, $2.45CDN per drip line and they deliver :thumbs up, last order was 10 bags & lines they didn't even charge for shipping which has been about $5CDN. The Terumo Ultra Thin Wall needles are great :D I'm using the 20g hardly feel the poke & the drip rate is minimally slower than the 18g regular needles. My vet was very happy that I found this company to get all the stuff cheaper :D.

:goodvibes::fingerscr:goodvibes: for Albert's eye issues and of course :goodvibes: :pray: for his Albert's continued great health - yes we sure are kicking CRF's butt :highfive::D

otter
February 7th, 2009, 12:35 AM
Oh Growler, I think about you and Duffy all the time... such an inspiring duo you are :grouphug: I'm so happy for you guys that Duffy is doing well. :cloud9:

growler~GateKeeper
February 7th, 2009, 12:57 AM
Thanks otter :2huggers:

gkjones
February 16th, 2009, 11:02 AM
Growler, I'm glad to read that things are going well for you and your Duffy. You sound like a very caring and careful mom to Duffy.

After losing my little one in December, I took my other 16 y.o. cat Molly to a new vet for a wellness exam. All looks good except that she is in the early stages of renal compromise (U.S. values: phosphorus normal at 3.9; bun elevated at 59; creatinine elevated at 3.6 -- CDN values, if I've done the calculations correctly: phosphorus 1.26, bun 19.28, creatinine 318.24 ... do the conversions look right?). The vet said to transition her to a low protein, renal support diet. As her phosphorus is okay, he didn't mention lower phosphorus (he might have been implying it by suggesting a "renal support" diet), but it sounds as if I should be avoiding higher phosphorus foods, too. I'm assuming that 7% - 10% is lower protein, which means that most of the wet Wellness and Nature's Variety meat versions are a-okay so that I can continue giving them to her, perhaps supplementing them with additional water (I should avoid the fish versions though, no?). We plan to recheck her in 3 months, unless problems develop sooner, and will consider subcutaneous fluids then if needed.

My question: I've read through this very useful thread but am sure I've missed something. Would some kind soul consider summarizing (a) what are the best wet foods with lower protein and low phosphorus, (b) what are acceptable dry foods to use, and (b) what are other treatment recommendations for early renal compromise elderly cats?

The summary would be great as a sticky!

krdahmer
February 16th, 2009, 11:24 AM
That summary is a great idea, so that newbies with this issue could get the main pointers and advice quick and easy (this is a long thread)! :thumbs up

And I am so glad that purdy Duffy is still doing great!! :lovestruck: She's one lucky kitty to have such a devoted mom!!! :grouphug::thumbs up

I do have one question though about something you mentioned there in the update.... about poop...:o I had always thought that the hard dark poo was good, but you mentioned it as being dry, which I never thought of before... Smoke's poo has always been small and hard and dry, does this mean she's not been getting enough fluids for years? Since she's been eating mostly wet food these last few weeks I've noticed a big change in her poop, it's larger and not so dry (but formed, firm and healthy looking like everyone else's here). I never really related the size to moisture, I've always just figured they were so small because she's never been a big eater. :shrug:

growler~GateKeeper
February 17th, 2009, 01:56 AM
I do have one question though about something you mentioned there in the update.... about poop...:o I had always thought that the hard dark poo was good, but you mentioned it as being dry, which I never thought of before... Smoke's poo has always been small and hard and dry, does this mean she's not been getting enough fluids for years? Since she's been eating mostly wet food these last few weeks I've noticed a big change in her poop, it's larger and not so dry (but formed, firm and healthy looking like everyone else's here). I never really related the size to moisture, I've always just figured they were so small because she's never been a big eater. :shrug:

Relatively hard, but not too hard, dark poop is good. Duffy has occasionally had dry bits in hers which are much lighter in colour and sometimes a little difficult to pass but that is due to her kidneys pulling as much moisture from everywhere as they can to redistribute to the rest of the body.

Smoke's poop likely was hard & dry because she was on dry food right? Not enough moisture in the food to begin with especially if she's not a big water drinker. Now she's on canned FF right? so the fillers are higher = more poop volume.

Poop size doesn't relate to moisture as far as I know, more on the amount of non-nutrient waste that is not absorbed nor used by the body.

growler~GateKeeper
February 17th, 2009, 03:49 AM
All looks good except that she is in the early stages of renal compromise (U.S. values: phosphorus normal at 3.9; bun elevated at 59; creatinine elevated at 3.6 -- CDN values, if I've done the calculations correctly: phosphorus 1.26, bun 19.28, creatinine 318.24 ... do the conversions look right?). The vet said to transition her to a low protein, renal support diet. As her phosphorus is okay, he didn't mention lower phosphorus (he might have been implying it by suggesting a "renal support" diet), but it sounds as if I should be avoiding higher phosphorus foods, too. I'm assuming that 7% - 10% is lower protein, which means that most of the wet Wellness and Nature's Variety meat versions are a-okay so that I can continue giving them to her, perhaps supplementing them with additional water (I should avoid the fish versions though, no?). We plan to recheck her in 3 months, unless problems develop sooner, and will consider subcutaneous fluids then if needed.

My question: I've read through this very useful thread but am sure I've missed something. Would some kind soul consider summarizing (a) what are the best wet foods with lower protein and low phosphorus, (b) what are acceptable dry foods to use, and (b) what are other treatment recommendations for early renal compromise elderly cats?

The summary would be great as a sticky!


Here's a great site for chemistry conversions: http://www.vin.com/scripts/labquest/converthtml.pl

You were almost all right your kitty's values look like this:
phos US 3.9 = 1.25 SI (CDN) units
BUN US 59 = 21.06 SI units
Creatinine US 3.6 = 318.24 SI units

What is your cat's Urine Specific Gravity (USG)?

Canned:

Kidney cats do not require low protein, but high quality protein low phos food. Removing too much protein from the cats diet makes it less palatable therefore they often refuse to eat, plus cats are carnivores they need meat protein to keep their bodies functions to the fullest.

Fish should be avoided when possible especially tuna, but fed on occasion 1-2 per month is still okay. Cats often become addicted to fish and will eat nothing else and tuna especially creates an imbalance in vit e levels.

When looking for a canned food look for quality ingredients, no fillers, actual meats ie chicken, turkey avoid anything that says "meat" meal cuz you don't know what the "meat" is, and low phos. Really read the ingredients in the food if there actual food listed in the first 6 ingredients and in the first 3 being specific meat or meal variety listed and there are not mostly chemicals it's a better quality food. Compare the ingredients in any can of Wellness to any can of the prescription foods which would you rather eat?

A listing of low phos canned can be found here (http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canned.htm) however this list may not be up to date *formulas do change* and does not include Wellness Chicken 1.15% dm phos, Turkey 1.05% dm phos, Chicken & Beef 1.17% dm phos, Kitten 1.15% dm phos which are the lowest of the Wellness varieties, Nature's Variety Instinct Chicken @ 1.22% dm phos good for occasional meal, the other NV flavours are too high.

When looking at phos levels you want to convert to dry matter (meaning whats left if you remove all water) and find something as close to or lower than 1% phos dry matter.

Foods need to be compared using "dry matter amounts" instead of "as fed amounts" because there is so much difference in moisture content, therefore there is varying amounts of nutrients in different foods

This (http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=1&cat=1399&articleid=667#) gives an explaination on how to convert to dm scroll down to "Converting dry matter basis"

It is always a good idea to add water to the canned food, this helps the cat get more fluids as healthy cats usually drink very little.

Dry food:

When you have an animal with compromised kidneys they should not be eating dry food. If absolutely necessary however there is a list here (http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/dry.htm) please note this list has not been updated since 2005.

Raw food:

Is far better than dry or canned for cats and dogs when it's done right, properly balanced, prepared and introduced.

Treatments:

Alot of that depends on how the cat is feeling and what the numbers are looking like. Some treatments that can be considered and must be discussed with your vet are:

species appropriate diet
adequate hydration
Subq fluids
phosphorus binders
calcitrol
anti-nausea meds
species appropriate vitamins
probiotics
ACE Inhibitors
essential fatty acids
immune boosters such as Transfer Factors
anti oxidants
GUNN IntraMuscular Stimulation (IMS) or acupuncture - two slightly different techniques
Classic Homeopathy Remedies - to be prescribed individually to suit your animal's needs

Other suggestions:
Discontinue all vaccines - any animal with compromised health should not be vaccinated this is also explicitly stated by the vaccine manufactures on the vaccine vials.

Raise the food and water dishes off the ground about 2-4 inches this will help keep the stomach acid in the stomach and reduce nausea while eating/drinking

Keep track of how much water you cat is drinking in a given number of days, this will aid your veterinarian in determining if/when subq's are necessary. IE: I have a water fountain for Duffy, the see-through resevoir holds 2 cups in addition to the bowl, so I make note of when the resevoir is filled and when the resevoir is empty then I know how many days it takes her to drink 2 cups of water.

Try to avoid stressful situations for the animal as much as possible.

You should have the full blood panel and urinalysis run every 3 months.

gkjones
February 17th, 2009, 07:07 AM
Growler, thank you so much for the summary! So very helpful.

Molly's urine specific gravity is 1.021.

krdahmer
February 18th, 2009, 08:17 AM
Thanks Growler! She is now eating Wellness, I just used the FF to get her to eat something... as soon as she showed interest I began offering other canned foods (better ones). And now she is eating a can of wellness a day!! (and very little dry dental food, she loves it so I leave it out for her) So that's 4 so far eating at least some wet food :thumbs up.

So are there any more Duffy pics??? ;) :D

hazelrunpack
February 18th, 2009, 09:44 AM
Yes, Duffy pictures would be puurrrrrrfect! :angel:

Mad Catter
February 19th, 2009, 10:38 AM
I am newly diagnosed with crf. I am 15 and mom had this idea in her head that I wouldn't start showing signs of aging until I was 21 (she had a friend in high school whose cat she remembers being 21 and still going strong. silly.). The thing is she had me when she was young and poor and so I haven't eaten the best! I did start a few months ago on grain free wellness and have started incorporating Nature's Valley organic raw chicken into my diet. She is kind of at my command, so during the incorporation of the raw food (which is still kind of going on), I would get her up in the middle of the night because I was hungry and she didn't like to leave raw just sitting out, so she would get up and feed me. This was not good on her already shoddy sleeping habits, so she read about the 'rotation' diet and bought me some kibble (evo) to leave out at night, so I could graze and let her sleep. But no more kibble now.

She has been up most of the night, with swollen, red eyes studying up on crf. At one point, she had taken in so much information, she couldn't figure out what was what! She hit a wall. Needless to say, she found herself here and finished off her night (early morning) reading through this entire thread! We have many questions and I want to make sure we are doing everything possible to stay as healthy as possible...another thing is: I will NOT let her give me sub-Q...I am a stubborn old bird and currently hold the world record for least likely to cooperate at the vet's office (no, really. check it out in guinness) and I barely let her pick me up (long story. i come from humble beginnings) (but I promise I am just as lovable!) (she doesn't know the difference anyway...)....so I was hoping to ask a few questions. And since I've read the thread, I'm pretty sure they won't be repeats (the 'summary' was a great idea!). My big question is for Growler and Duffy (surprise surprise). I am just curious what kind of raw food you guys are using (brand). I'm pretty sure you are on 100% raw and I am wondering if it is all one brand or do you make stuff at home too? And, in keeping with the 'summary' idea, how much do you feed/eat on any given day (I would LOVE to have a 'summary' of your daily eating schedule...I would even pay for it!) i.e.
Monday
morning = blah blah
afternoon = blah blah blah
evening = blah

(food and supplements included!)

I know we are all different, have different numbers, etc. and we certainly are not going to follow everything you do step by step, but we are definitely on the same page in terms of philosophies, etc.

I should tell you we haven't even gotten our numbers back yet. But, the preliminary results (urine extremely diluted) are not good. I did not eat much and did drink a lot before the exam and somewhere I have the smallest glimmer of hope, I would love for it to be just that...drank too much, urine like water, I know it is not that. I AM 15 and haven't eaten the best...so...we are just preparing...we find out details later this morning...

My mom wishes I could speak and express my feelings because of how I react at the vet, the idea of me having to stay a few nights with an IV...she is worried the sheer trauma of that alone might do me in...(I am really that bad ;) gotta love me!)

Well, I've rambled on enough. Don't worry, I'll be back ;) (probably sooner rather than later!)

Signed,
Mad Catter

Chris21711
February 19th, 2009, 10:52 AM
Mad Catter - Growler will not be logged on until later tonight (working, same time zone as you) I have pm'd her asking that she follow up on this thread.

chico2
February 19th, 2009, 12:45 PM
Mad Catter,you certainly are a smart kitty,tell mom though,even though you feel sickly,we'd love to see a pic.
and please be patient ,you'll get all the answers you need,not everyone is retired like me,some people like Growler,have to work:laughing:

Mad Catter
February 19th, 2009, 11:09 PM
I will keep checking back...still don't have my numbers, getting them tomorrow early evening. They are doing a urine culture because the diluted urine really might be a UTI, my kidney values are ok (again, I find out details tomorrow), but my T4 is high -- I definitely have hyperthyroidism and doc has already mentioned meds. This really threw me. I was expecting a much more dire call. However, I know hyperthyroidism can mask kidney values, so I haven't run into the street to celebrate. And now I must learn all I can about HT (is that the correct acronym?) and how it relates to kidney function, how HT meds impact kidney values and function, etc. Regardless, I am going to continue to treat her as if she has crf/arf, etc. because it is so common in older cats and it appears HT and crf are very closely related...I will most likely study up on HT tonight, though I am exhausted emotionally and thus, physically and might veg...or :sleepy: (had to get a smilie in there!)...

I uploaded a pic, but it doesn't appear on my posts, perhaps it just takes awhile. I made an album and it is there...

talk soon...

:cat:
m.

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2009, 11:16 PM
Cool self portrait, MC! :thumbs up

growler often logs on quite late--she's a west coast girl, too--so she may yet arrive on the scene tonight! Hope you're feeling better soon! :goodvibes: Let your mom give you a hug from hazel, please :grouphug:

growler~GateKeeper
February 20th, 2009, 12:56 AM
Hi Mad Catter :grouphug: for you & mum & :goodvibes: for the test results.

Duffy has been through HyperT a few years before her CRF diagnosis. I chose the Radioactive Iodine Therapy to cure the HyperT which does entail a full weeks stay in the special clinic. Chico2 who you met above has a HyperT cat Rocky who is on Tapazole meds for controlling the condition he does not have kidney issues.

during the incorporation of the raw food (which is still kind of going on), I would get her up in the middle of the night because I was hungry and she didn't like to leave raw just sitting out, so she would get up and feed me. This was not good on her already shoddy sleeping habits, so she read about the 'rotation' diet and bought me some kibble (evo) to leave out at night, so I could graze and let her sleep. But no more kibble now.

Raw food is purrfectly fine to leave out for several hours for munching when you are unable to feed fresh at all hours. Or if you are still not comfortable with that you could leave a portion of canned out over night. Wellness has some low phos varieties as mentioned in the summary above.

I am just curious what kind of raw food you guys are using (brand). I'm pretty sure you are on 100% raw and I am wondering if it is all one brand or do you make stuff at home too? And, in keeping with the 'summary' idea, how much do you feed/eat on any given day (I would LOVE to have a 'summary' of your daily eating schedule...I would even pay for it!) i.e.
Monday
morning = blah blah
afternoon = blah blah blah
evening = blah

(food and supplements included!)

Duffy has both a Homeopath Vet and a Homeopath that she sees everytime she goes to the vet so some suggestions are from one or both.

Yes I feed 100% ground raw, the brand I buy is a local North Vancouver, BC company called Natural Instincts with variety of Chicken, Turkey, Bison, Lamb, occasionally Rabbit (there are other meats Beef & Elk she's not fond of) and from another local North Vancouver, BC company called Club Canine the occasional salmon meal. On the days she eats chicken she gets a couple of rough cut up chunks of chicken neck in her dinner I buy them from another local North Vancouver company called 3P Naturals. I'm very fortunate to have a pet food store not too far away that the only food they sell is raw so they are very knowledgeable about the feeding it.

If I am cooking a chicken breast for myself I will save some raw chunks for Duffy to enjoy.

Duffy is eating roughly about 100g ground raw per day sometimes upto 125g especially if its Turkey her current fave. The Natural Instincts ground raw comes in a 250g chubb so I partially thaw & cut in half then store in Ziploc Single Serve freezer containers.

Breakfast (usually btwn 4:30-6am)

3 supplements are pilled right before she eats:
1 Vetri-Science NuCat Vitamin (http://www.vetriscience.com/nucat.php) tablet as per her Homeopath Vets' directions
1 Standard Process Feline Renal Support (http://www.standardprocess.com/display/VeterinaryCatalog.spi?ID=350) tablet as per her Homeopath Vets' directions
1 Standard Process Feline Whole Body Support (http://www.standardprocess.com/display/VeterinaryCatalog.spi?ID=351) tablet as per her Homeopath Vets' directions

Food:
2 heaping Tsp (not the cooking measuring spoon but an actual teaspoon) ground raw food
1 PB8 Probiotic (http://www.nutritionnow.com/PB8.htm) capsule opened & empty into the food mixed well as per her Homeopath Vets' directions
3 drops Aangamik Liquid DMG (http://www.fslabs.com/vitamins-supplements/aangamik-dmg-300mg-liquid.php) mixed in food as per her Homeopath Vets' directions
1 pump Grizzly Salmon Oil (http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html) mixed in food as per her Homeopath's direction

Around 8am Duffy is usually looking for a little more food so I'll add 1 Tsp food no additional supplements, to whatever she has left in her dish from breakfast.

Between 9-10 am before leaving for work (depends on what day it is)
I put another 1-1.5 Tsp food no additional supplements in her dish mix it with anything left from earlier.

Almost always her dish is completely empty when I get home from work some meat she's not too crazy about like Lamb right now so she may leave some in the dish - that gets tossed & she gets a clean dish for dinner.

Dinner usually btwn 7-8 pm (depending on how late I work that day)

3 supplements are pilled right before she eats:
1 Vetri-Science NuCat Vitamin (http://www.vetriscience.com/nucat.php) tablet as per her Homeopath Vets' directions
1 Standard Process Feline Renal Support (http://www.standardprocess.com/display/VeterinaryCatalog.spi?ID=350) tablet as per her Homeopath Vets' directions
1 Standard Process Feline Whole Body Support (http://www.standardprocess.com/display/VeterinaryCatalog.spi?ID=351) tablet as per her Homeopath Vets' directions

Food:
2 heaping Tsp (not the cooking measuring spoon but an actual teaspoon) ground raw food
1 PB8 Probiotic (http://www.nutritionnow.com/PB8.htm) capsule opened & empty into the food mixed well as per her Homeopath Vets' directions
3 drops Aangamik Liquid DMG (http://www.fslabs.com/vitamins-supplements/aangamik-dmg-300mg-liquid.php) mixed in food as per her Homeopath Vets' directions
1 pump Grizzly Salmon Oil (http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html) mixed in food as per her Homeopath's direction

Usually around 10-11pm Duffy might be looking for a little more food if not I usually try to get her to eat a little when I head for bed, I'll put out another Tsp.

I feed a different meat each day so she doesn't get the same two days in a row. Rabbit & Salmon are fed 1-2 per month as the phosphorus levels are higher. Bison is the only red meat she'll eat so she gets that 2-3 days/week. All the meals she gets have ground bone included except the Bison ans the lamb. All the meals have ground muscle meat, bone (exceptions noted above), liver, heart, Cod Liver Oil & Full Spectrum Vit E. The chicken meal includes free range egg yolk, the rabbit meal includes lungs and kidneys. The salmon she gets is just meat & bone actually its the Dog food variety because she doesn't like the extra veggies that are in the Cat Salmon meal.

All supplements should be discussed with your vet before beginning. :)

growler~GateKeeper
February 20th, 2009, 02:33 AM
I should also mention Duffy is 12lbs and has always had a great appetite so getting her to eat has never been an issue. She is also currently on 150ml subq fluids every other day as per her Homeopath Vet's directions.

Mad Catter
February 20th, 2009, 04:30 AM
so much for writing back with all that detailed info. I am going to print it out and use it as a reference...'Duffy's CRF Diet'

:thankyou:

you should really have a blog you know...:)
not only for all the information you provide to so many people, but you also mention many products, so you could always link to them...(and in turn earn a profit!)

i'll keep you all posted tomorrow evening when i get my actual values from the doc...am definitely wanting to do the Radioactive Iodine Treatment for her HyperT..it will kill me to think of her all alone for at least a week (maybe less :fingerscr), but i think it will be less stress on her in the long run (this is, of course, assuming she is a candidate..it sounds as though it is standard protocol to try meds first..?) we shall see.

one of the hardest parts of caring for an animal companion is that they don't understand english (or whatever language you speak) (imagine that)...like i can't just say 'i'll be back in a week, you stay positive and eat and drink well, the faster the radiation levels come down, the sooner you get to come home. we'll do something special when you come home...so you have that to look forward to...'

nope. can't do that. for that week, they think that is what the rest of their life is going to be like (or at least i imagine that is what they think).

ok. just wanted to pop in and say thanks for taking the time to post d's diet...

m.
p.s. my full name is madison alex (maddie), but i use mad catter for my online persona :cool:
(my mom's name is heather)

chico2
February 20th, 2009, 08:32 AM
Mad Catter,my Rocky has been on Tapazole for,I think,more than a year now(I forget,since time is flying by:loser:)and is doing ok.
Rockys symptoms were,weightloss,although he ate like a fiend.
Pacing,being hyper,he has also lost muscle-mass in his back-legs,with some signs of arthritis.
Rocky is 13 yrs old,I do have other problems with him,not related to HT,I think.
He goes every 3 months for a blood-test,next one due in March.
The Iodine-treatment is just not doable right now,if ever:sad:
But we'll see how he is doing.
Since on meds,he's gained most of his weight back.
During his last bloodtest(taken in the neck)he was extremely traumatized,they had trouble finding a vein,so getting him in to a carrier in March,will be doubly difficult:yell:
The vet said though,because I was very upset,that the next will be taken in his leg.
Is Mad-Catter your only kitty??
I have 2 others,Vinnie and Chico:cat:
:fingerscrfor good testresults for Madison Alex:fingerscr

growler~GateKeeper
February 20th, 2009, 11:51 PM
i'll keep you all posted tomorrow evening when i get my actual values from the doc...am definitely wanting to do the Radioactive Iodine Treatment for her HyperT..it will kill me to think of her all alone for at least a week (maybe less :fingerscr), but i think it will be less stress on her in the long run (this is, of course, assuming she is a candidate..it sounds as though it is standard protocol to try meds first..?) we shall see.

:goodvibes: for the test results

As for the treatment for HyperT there are 4 options: Medication, Surgery, RaId, and Homeopathic Remedies. I wasn't seeing a Homeopath Vet at the time Duffy was diagnosed w/HyperT (2005) so I wasn't aware of that option. Duffy was never on any meds for it since she was caught early & in otherwise excellant health. It was my decision to go straight for the RaId though the cost is quite steep up front but when you compare it to a lifetime of testing & meds it is actually cheaper in the long run. Alot of cats are put on meds first in order to stabilize the Thyroid values then look at either surgery or RaId, however many are just treated w/meds and do great. There are not very many clinics that do the procedure since it is very specialized, the standard minimum stay is one week, some very sick kitties however do need to stay an extra week. If faced with the same situation I would either go for Homeopathic Remedies or RaId, my Homeopath Vet doesn't like the RaId treatment because it's obviously not a natural solution given that it releases radioactive iodine into the body to kill the abnormal cells, where as the remedies work to fix the cause of the imbalance. My previous Homeopath vet has a senior kitty with HyperT and she is being treated with a specific Homeopathic Remedy and she is doing great.

chico2
February 21st, 2009, 09:06 AM
Growler,I've never heard of the Homeopathic treatment,but of course I never asked anyone.
When you have time,maybe you could PM me some more info,or a site that I can visit.
I often feel guilty for not going the Iodine route,the cost is not the only issue,it's mostly about Rocky and the kind of cat he is,the effect this procedure and after-care would have on an already troubled kitty like him.
Then I feel guilty about putting poison(pills) in him every day too:yell:

Mad Catter
February 21st, 2009, 10:02 AM
everyone,

Thought I would post our numbers, which we received last night:

BUN 21
Creatinine 1.2
Phosphorus 5.2
USG 1.011 (still waiting on culture results for UTI, etc. - find out on Tuesday)
T4 9.9 :(

So, on Thursday night, after much research, I was pretty convinced about the Radioactive Iodine treatment, and then I slowly started changing my mind...decided to give it a go with the meds, hoping to tweak out a small dosage to control the HyperT...We are started on 2.5 mg twice a day, we just had our first pill a bit ago and I'm watching her every move, hoping for few side effects :fingerscr

I can't remember exactly what changed my mind about the meds, it is early and I'm still trying to 'catch up' on all the sleep missed this past week ;)

I am wondering if it is possible to find a dosage where we retain the 'good' of HT - blood flow through kidneys and get rid of the 'bad' - they probably go together of course; I will next spend some time researching the meds, what they do exactly, is it a naturally occurring substance in the body (probably not. that probably sounds naive. but let me have my moment of naivety!), if there are any long term studies on the effects, etc.

There is also the issue of the 'type' of cat she is too.

And I may just need to incorporate liver health into her long term diet, to help as much as possible with ickiness of meds...hopefully the liver diet and the kidney diet will be similar, because I am definitely going to treat her as if she has crf (and she may very well, we will see soon hopefully...).

And we can always change our mind. I am sure she will wise up to me trying to sneak a pill in twice a day. The doc also mentioned a pharmacy here that will make it into a liquid and you can pick pretty much any type of flavor you want...

That is all for now. I hope you all are well, I think of you and your furry loved ones throughout the day...

:pawprint:

chico2
February 21st, 2009, 12:00 PM
Madcatter,My Rocky is now on two 5mg pills/daily,we started off just like you.
It takes some adjusting and testing to get it right.
I think for food,if you feed them healthy,good quality food you take care of liver,kidney functions,the best you can.
My cats are all off the dry food totally now,which I feel really good about and they love the Wellness:thumbs up
You can clearly feel Rockys enlarge thyroid,it's almost 1 inch long:sad:

Mad Catter
February 21st, 2009, 03:49 PM
I am worried maddie's thyroid(s) is larger than normal too...I can't see it, but I can 'see' her purring and I don't think I ever used too (but, then again, perhaps I am now 'looking' for things ;)

I did ask the doc about the size and if could possibly block the airway and she said no...not sure if she meant no for me or no in general...maybe they grow 'out' away from the airway and not in...

Well, I thought I had given her her medicine last night, but this morning, there it was peering out from two pieces of pill pocket. I don't know how I missed it last night and it didn't look digested (like it came back up later), I was really tired, but I don't miss things like that. Well, evidently I do. ;)

Anyway, I just gave it another try..this time I placed half the pill on her plate, ran a fork under water and began to make a bitter pill soup...I was surprised and just how little it was (certainly I can sneak this past her), added some wet food, just a bit to make sure she ate it ALL and she pretty much did I think..I added some more and mixed it some more and she ate that up too...there are always remnants of the food on the sides, but I am thinking positive that she ingested it all..:fingerscr

The only thing is, it was a new flavor of wet, so that could be the reason it was hidden well, time will tell...
I am definitely going to have to keep a steady supply of variety...the thing is I only feed wellness grain free...another thing to research...other grain free...well there is NV I think too...plus I feed raw and may even make something one of these days...!

chico2
February 21st, 2009, 04:40 PM
If she likes raw(mine don't)I would go for that for sure..I can give them a couple of little chunks of raw beef,or chicken,but they only eat very little,Chico not at all.
As for the pill,for a long time now,I put a drop of water in his bowl and mash the pill with one tbsp of food and he'll lap it all up,whatever goes on the side of the dish,I scrape down,to make sure he gets all of the pill.
After that he gets the rest of the food,I have had no problems.
Apparently the Tapazole has a terrible taste.
When I gave Rocky antibiotics,it came in a small capsule,it was very easy just to drop it in his mouth.
I too was told the enlarged Thyroid does not hinder his breathing.

growler~GateKeeper
February 22nd, 2009, 01:05 AM
I have opened a new thread here: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=60971 to continue the HyperT discussion, I would like to keep this one more on the CRF discussion :D


Mad Catter In regards to the BUN, Creatinine and Phos numbers those still all fall in normal range for healthy cats, the USG of course is much lower than it should be however that could be due to infection or the HyperT covering up CRF. I'll comment on the T4 in the other thread linked above :D Bear in mind that if HyperT is masking kidney failure it will show itself within 3 months of having the HyperT properly regulated, so she will need additional testing at that point.

growler~GateKeeper
February 22nd, 2009, 08:55 PM
Duffy had her recheck today, she's gained a little weight since October (I didn't weigh her at Novembers' appt) very unusual for any animal with CRF. In October she was 5.4kg and this morning's weight was 5.9kg (12.98lbs). She's up 1/2kg in 4 months, my vet was pleased/impressed she isn't dropping any weight, her appetite is great, her energy is good, her poops are good, her hydration is great. When he examed her he said everything looked good. :thumbs up

Test results back either Mon or Tues :goodvibes:

hazelrunpack
February 22nd, 2009, 09:19 PM
Oh, wow, growler!!! :grouphug: That's wonderful news!! :highfive:

Good going, Duffygurl!! :cat:

You have an :angel: for a mommy...

growler~GateKeeper
February 23rd, 2009, 02:19 AM
I got even better news Hazel!!!! :D :D


WoooooHooooo!!!! :clap: :clap: can you tell I'm thrilled :p

I just got the results emailed to me :D We're back down closer to the levels from 18months ago, not the lowest they've been since diagnosis but pretty darn close to it :D

Urea 15.0 (ref range 5.0 - 12.0 mmol/L) last test 3 months ago was 25.1
Creatinine 216 (ref range 71 - 203 umol/L) last test 3 months ago was 268
USG 1.014 (ref range 1.015 - 1.060) last test 3 months ago was 1.02. This drop was expected given the increase in subq fluids, and after a CRF cat/dog begins receiving regular fluids the USG test is unreliable - though it is still good to have the urinalysis it done as to check colour, clarity, pH, blood, protein etc

Mad Catter
February 23rd, 2009, 05:26 AM
That is so fantastic!!!! I am so happy for the both of you!!!

If I knew more about how to add stuff here, I would put a huge smiley face!!!!

Congratulations!!!

chico2
February 23rd, 2009, 08:04 AM
Growler,you must be soooo happy,that's great news:cat:

Love4himies
February 23rd, 2009, 08:16 AM
Wow, I am so happy for you and Duffy :thumbs up :highfive: :grouphug:

hazelrunpack
February 23rd, 2009, 10:09 AM
Omd, omd, omd, what fabulous results, growler!!!!!!! :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

Duffy, you gooooo gurl!!!!!!

:dog: :dog: :dog: :dog: :dog: :dog: :dog: :dog:

And the Pack goes wild with jubilation (except Ember who is keeping his tail out of the fray)!!!!!

Chris21711
February 23rd, 2009, 10:32 AM
Fantastic news Growler :thumbs up I'm so happy for Duffy......and you of course :D

gkjones
February 23rd, 2009, 03:24 PM
That's wonderful news, Growler -- what a careful (care full) good job you have done!

Jim Hall
February 23rd, 2009, 04:26 PM
excellent what a great job!!!

growler~GateKeeper
February 23rd, 2009, 10:37 PM
Thanks everyone :D

Duffy is doing so well & she's feeling great :D