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alright i need to clarify some things on this board

kigndano
September 20th, 2007, 09:09 AM
it seems that everyone on this board pictures me as this big bully that constantly flips my dog over on his back and chokes him out while i laugh like an evil king.

thats not the case at all, i post on this board when i am completely frustrated, and when i say i am willing do alpha roll my dog 1000000000000 times it means i probably just did it once because he turned into a whirling insane dog at the sight of another person walking their dog. so i come on the board and vent, and proceed to get harassed by everyone about how terrible an owner i am.

i admit i make mistakes with my dog, but he gets more than a good amount of affection from me also. i feel like you all imagine him being miltarily trained, but thats not the case

the reason i GET so frustrated with him is because he is so good 90 percent of the day. he lays around and chews on a toy or naps. and when we go on walks hes good 90 percent of the time, when we play out back hes good also.

but that 10 percent of the time that dog is a complete nutcase, and a total handful. i am a first time owner, and i was not informed about how much of a non first time owner dog these guys are. so now hes my responsibility, hes my puppy for the next 10 years and im really trying my best to do things the best i can with him

that said, i DO make mistakes and get frustrated when he ignores my corrections, when i walk one way and hes choking himself on the leash and turning around to look at the dog walking away and jumping its really something that i dont know how to control other than holding him down to calm him down. if you know some magic way to relax him, by all means let me know. but just responding with "you are an awful man!" "go get a professional trainer right now!!!!" isnt going to help me. i dont have a lot of money, and i have a lot of bills, i cant pay for a trainer as ive said before.


and yes i did smack my dog in the head once for running away and once when he nipped at my hand when i first got him and was trying to brush him. i felt bad about it at the time, but when i talk to the neighbors who have dogs they all tell me that theyve done things like that too, so i guess its not just me that can lose their cool.

if you are all saints and have never yelled at your dog, my hats off to you, i admire your patience a great deal

but i have made mistakes with the dog, and i am big enough to come on a DOG LOVER board and admit them, and take responsibility and ask for help.

so judge me if you want to, but dont think im mike vick, training my dog to kill everything it sees by beating it daily with a broom handle and the back of my hand.
:sad:

kigndano
September 20th, 2007, 09:15 AM
and also

if the dogs are as smart as you tell me they are

im sure he knows when hes being a stubborn a** and when hes being a calm good boy

luckypenny
September 20th, 2007, 09:23 AM
We all learned at one time or another (and hopefully still continue to learn).

When you're feeling stressed and don't know which way is the best to react, sometimes it's better to not react at all. Calmly walk away from the situation with your dog in tow. Take note of the undesired behavior and seek info. Coming here to ask for advice and seek better solutions is a good step in the right direction. You may not like all the replies you receive as everyone is entitled to their own opinions so just take what you may feel will help.

For that 10% of the time, just remember to stay calm. Dogs don't inherently know what their owners expect of them. There are many methods to learn and teach but one that uses understanding and respect for your pet is the best IMO.

kigndano
September 20th, 2007, 09:41 AM
i know lucky

thanks for at least offering some help

even if you too think im a horrible person at least youre trying to save my dog!

luckypenny
September 20th, 2007, 10:06 AM
i know lucky

thanks for at least offering some help

even if you too think im a horrible person at least youre trying to save my dog!

:eek: I never said that :D. No one's horrible, just sometimes the things they may do are. You know what? Think of yourself as a new student. Clear your mind of all the negative things you've learned about 'correcting' and 'teaching' your dog and begin fresh. Think of your dog as a new student as well. Never mind what you think he knows or how smart he is. Pretend he knows nothing and that you must teach him again using gentler methods. You're both new learning partners so have fun with it and with each other. Always remember to stay calm and upbeat. If either one of you begins to get frustrated, simply take a break. With the right methods, he'll quickly learn his errors and you yours ;).

kigndano
September 20th, 2007, 10:17 AM
yea i am going to try


i think my neighbor, whos shephard is the most well behaved dog ive ever seen by the way, telling me that he smacked his dog more than a few times has probably sub-consciously been a bad influence on me

luckypenny
September 20th, 2007, 10:27 AM
Yep, not a good role model IMO. My ex used to repeatedly smack the snouts of his Rotties to teach them what was undesirable behavior. Sure, they learned to fear him with the exception of one, who smacked back using his teeth. The ex learned the hard way :D, but changed his methods after that. Seriously, would you rather your dog listen because he fears you or because he respects you. Big difference between the two. And by hitting a dog, the owner is conditioning it to fear hands (or whatever other object is used). This is setting the dog up for failure and will learn not to trust anyone's hands. Including a child's or a vet's. Not a positive outcome at all.

pitgrrl
September 20th, 2007, 10:53 AM
that said, i DO make mistakes and get frustrated when he ignores my corrections, when i walk one way and hes choking himself on the leash and turning around to look at the dog walking away and jumping its really something that i dont know how to control other than holding him down to calm him down. if you know some magic way to relax him, by all means let me know. but just responding with "you are an awful man!" "go get a professional trainer right now!!!!" isnt going to help me. i dont have a lot of money, and i have a lot of bills, i cant pay for a trainer as ive said before.


I get the feeling you're not going to love this advice, but I'd ask you to just try it for a while before making a judgment because I honestly know what it's like to have a dog that acts like a mad man at the sight of another dog.

Get yourself some really high value treats (Benny Bully's dried liver works well for me) and take them on all your walks. Every single time your dog spots another dog, no matter how far away, start handing out treats until the dog disappears from view. Break the treats into tiny little pieces, as small as the end of a pencil, so that you can give out many, many pieces without actually feeding a ton. It's best if you can practice this at first with a decent distance between you and the other dog, but regardless, do it every time.

You also want to try and get the timing right so that you start giving the treats before your dog starts to react, so keep your eye out for any approaching dogs.

After you've done this for a while and your dog has figured out that seeing a dog=treats, look for any moment of attention your dog offers you in the presence of another dog. So if you come across another dog and your dog offers a split second of eye contact, mark that with a command (like 'look' or 'focus' or, as I sort of accidentally taught, 'it's a dog') and then give the treats.

Do that for a bit so that your dog will that when he sees a dog he looks to you and gets a reward. At this point you can stop with the slot machine of treats and just give one treat as a reward for re-directing his attention to you, rather than focusing on the passing dog. Keep using the command you've used to identify focusing on you.

At a certain point, when your dog is reliably looking to you and responding to the command to do so, stop rewarding with a treat every time, switch between a verbal praise and a food reward.

The other thing that I found helps a ton is to make really sure you're not pulling back on the leash or getting tense in anticipation of your dog's reaction, this only adds to the problem. Keeping yourself calm will go a very long way in keeping your dog calm.

Lukka'sma
September 20th, 2007, 11:00 AM
Sure you could beat the crap out of your dog and make it fear you, but to get to be alpha you need to be smarter than your dog, he will then start to listen to what you say.
When the alpha dog say's lets go see the movie Babe, the subordinate dog's don't yell out, "Hey I hear 101 Dalmations is good" they just say, "Babe...great, you lead we'll follow."
Training your dog will take time. You have to take baby steps however and if your dog comes by chance once or twice don't make the mistake in thinking he knows the command and will give you the desired outcome every time you issue it. Maybe part of your frustration is thinking he does know what you wantwhile the dog is not too sure. Baby steps......if you get too far ahead in the training and he doesn't do as you ask, just back up a step or two and keep pluggin away. You have to understand also that some breeds aren't as good as others with taking your wishes in consideration:laughing:. If I call Lukka she usually will come, but there are times when she say, "Yea, in a second I am on the trail of a mouse right now." Good luck

kigndano
September 20th, 2007, 11:28 AM
Sure you could beat the crap out of your dog and make it fear you, but to get to be alpha you need to be smarter than your dog, he will then start to listen to what you say.
When the alpha dog say's lets go see the movie Babe, the subordinate dog's don't yell out, "Hey I hear 101 Dalmations is good" they just say, "Babe...great, you lead we'll follow."
Training your dog will take time. You have to take baby steps however and if your dog comes by chance once or twice don't make the mistake in thinking he knows the command and will give you the desired outcome every time you issue it. Maybe part of your frustration is thinking he does know what you wantwhile the dog is not too sure. Baby steps......if you get too far ahead in the training and he doesn't do as you ask, just back up a step or two and keep pluggin away. You have to understand also that some breeds aren't as good as others with taking your wishes in consideration:laughing:. If I call Lukka she usually will come, but there are times when she say, "Yea, in a second I am on the trail of a mouse right now." Good luck



see

the beginning of that is exactly what i hate about this board

happycats
September 20th, 2007, 11:57 AM
If you can't afford a trainer maybe some books, or DVD's by a good trainer will help .
Although some on this board hate him, I really like Cesar Milan, you could also catch his TV show on animal planet, He has some great methods for training dogs just like yours.

There is also a new show "at the end of my leash" and he also helps people just like yourself, and seems to use the NIFL and umbilical cord methods in his training.

I wish you all the best with your pup, and just coming here and trying to get advise shows that you are trying, and that you want what's best for your guy:thumbs up Everyone makes mistakes, but it takes a big person to admit and try to correct them :highfive:

luckypenny
September 20th, 2007, 12:05 PM
see

the beginning of that is exactly what i hate about this board

kigndano, I'm pretty sure Lukka'sma was just generalizing when she used the term "you," meaning anyone. Her post is very warm and insightful; please don't take it the wrong way :).

breeze
September 20th, 2007, 01:01 PM
We have all made mistakes in training, if we didn't we would not be human !!
It is hard to get the right emotions down when we type on the computer.. the person reading it can take it the wrong way, put the wrong emotion where it does not belong, and read sarcazime where it doesn't belong. and when we get fustrated it is really hard to put into words..

there isw alot of help on this board, some good some you just don't want to hear, that is what makes this board a community..that said all you can do is move forward.

be consitant with your comands and praise when your pup does what you want..try treats, or what ever works for you as a positive reward.
When you get fustrated when your pup is not behaving, weather on a walk or just play, just stop and you will notice that in time your pup will stop also..
when you are walking and you find he is not listing or going to lung just stop don't move. ( that is what I use to do).
you can try a halti or newtrix for walking, that helped me. you can also train the recall with a VERY long leash, put him in a sit and stay then slowly walk away with leash in hand (not tight), and then call him if he goes to go somewhere else pull lightly on the leash to correct him, once he is where you want him to be then reward him, either treats or hand prase..these things must be done on a regular basis and in time you will notice that the dog will listen better to you.
you can also check out the training thread on this forum, they are very helpful..

just remember we have all been there and some of us are still there..
I hope this has helped you, and you will still come here for answers to your questions..
We are all just trying to help you and your pup

rainbow
September 20th, 2007, 01:06 PM
I know you said you can't afford a trainer but obedience classes are not that expensive. I paid $120 for 8 lessons and it was worth every penny for me and my husky. I really think if you could find a way to afford it you will never regret doing so. :2cents:

want4rain
September 20th, 2007, 01:08 PM
just remember we have all been there and some of us are still there..



*coughs and raises hand*

-ashley

Lukka'sma
September 20th, 2007, 01:08 PM
see

the beginning of that is exactly what i hate about this board

The first line in that was not directed at you!!!! You had said someone on your street was telling you thats how he treats his dog so I was making a general statement. But you can hate me if you want. I will give you a wide birth on this board form here on in, there are members here that have very good information and they will do whatever they can to help you.

CyberKitten
September 20th, 2007, 01:33 PM
I almost did not reply but here goes. I am not a perfect person - I don't consder myself an owner because I don't like that term. My animals are like my children to me so would I hit them, never! Do I get frustrated, oh yeah!! I have screamed a couple times and hatred myself for a couple months but my cats - and dogs of the past - seem to understand. I know I did not accomplish anything by screaming - and that does to work with humans either. Neither does being sarcastic or nasty - it just makes me angry and hurt. I think that's how dogs feel when someone huts them or yells at them for no reason they can see. They are smart but they don't think like us.

But yourself some good dog training books or get a good trainer - even a few classes might help you get back in the right track for those 10% of the times you went off the rails so to speak.

At least you know it was a mistake to hit your dog and admit it - that is a huge step!! It;s the ones who;d never admit it I worry about - not to mention their animals, sigh!

Good luck!

Ford Girl
September 20th, 2007, 01:41 PM
Email and typed correspondence, especially posts on community boards, are sometimes misunderstood, exclamation points, sarcasim, the word YOU, etc...what you (used in a general term) type isn't always percieved the way it's meant...keep that in mind (meaning everyone, not you in particular).

I agree that some of the advise on this board sounds judgemental, the tone isn't always welcoming, but isn't the advise what really matters? Try to read the facts and suggestions rather then put personal feelings in to it...it's the helpful advise you should be noticing, nothing else should matter. Just like YOUR posts are misunderstood, a reply post could be misunderstood by YOU. pick out the good stuff, ignore the rest.

Also keep in mind alot of the people on here see the most horrific things, things that you never want to see with your own eyes, things you flip the channel from if it appears on TV, they deal with it every day - bring animals in to their homes who have been so abused or neglected, they speak for critters who can't speak themselves, rescues and volunteers, it's a passion and it's their job, something they feel VERY strongly about, it's natural and obiglatory for these people to put the animal in question first before the poster or the posters feelings...it's the animal that matters. Bottom line.

Just my thoughts. :dog::cat::dog::cat:

Jim Hall
September 20th, 2007, 01:42 PM
[QUOTE=Lukka'sma;480151]Sure you could beat the crap out of your dog and make it fear you, but to get to be alpha you need to be smarter than your dog, he will then start to listen to


Well i would say thats not a real good way to start a thought
espceliiay when the reader or readers know what beating a dog would do

Jim Hall
September 20th, 2007, 01:47 PM
If 90% of the time he behaves you are doing a great job

patience and small steps will winn the day


and stay calm if you are calm your dog will be
taking some deep breaths will help or whtever gets you too a calm place animals are uncannily sensitive to moods

Winston
September 20th, 2007, 03:21 PM
I could have replied to a few of your posts in a negative way as well...and maybe some day that could still happen...but like others have said some here have seen the most horrible things and know ALOT of info...remember people post a reply usually when they have some knowledge...

I know money is always an issue for people with pets even myself...But I went to the library and read books....as a matter of fact you should look up Tamar Gellers book called The Loved Dog...she is a trainer and has some great advice...I also really enjoy Cesar Millan's stuff but again that is not for everybody..I have season 1 on DVD and it is great! You have to take what you can out of the advice, training, books etc and use what will work with your boy..

Cesar for example would not agree with the swat in the head you gave your dog...He would have expected a pack leader to be calm and assertive..and yes that is tough when your dog has run away and scared the ???? out of you! but in the end the dog senses how your feeling and I am sure it was not very calm.

When I took my boy to obediance training as a puppy he was the example in class...always..he scared all the puppys away one night because he was dominant and rambuncious! The trainer I had made me hang Winston one time by his leash & collar until he stopped going crazy...I did this and let me tell you I have never felt so guilty in all of my life!! and I will NEVER do that again..it went against my better judgement but she was screaming at me to "hang him".....the next time she told me to do it...I told her no! and went and sat out of the class for awhile until my boy calmed down! I never explained anything to her I just made that choice because I dont believe in that! So everyone has their own opinion...just take what you can from it...

Cindy

kigndano
September 20th, 2007, 04:31 PM
thanks to everyone who read my rant

kigndano
September 20th, 2007, 06:02 PM
and it is something i should keep in mind about reading things and not knowing how they were meant when typed. it is just words on the screen after all, any emotional content is my minds doing basically.


i guess half the fun would be gone if the dogs understood english wouldnt it?

want4rain
September 20th, 2007, 06:22 PM
see i think life would be made if we understood DOG!

who needs a dog whisperer!! i have the pooch-o-matic!!

kigndano
September 20th, 2007, 06:34 PM
what on earth is that

want4rain
September 20th, 2007, 07:12 PM
my dog translator!!! dont you have one???? you just gotta see this thing working! it only cause me my 3rd born!! (3rd, not 1st hahaha they said she was too scrawny!)

in all seriousness... i have no idea what it is. i google imaged 'strange machine' and that was one of the things that came up!

-ashley

want4rain
September 20th, 2007, 07:14 PM
steam engine!!

-ash

Jim Hall
September 20th, 2007, 07:32 PM
lol you been dipping into the catnip again ashley?

want4rain
September 20th, 2007, 08:01 PM
:o

-ashley

t.pettet
September 20th, 2007, 09:29 PM
You could ask to sit in (without your dog with you) on an obedience class, with the pretext of joining in the future, am sure you'd pick up some positive training methods. Observing novices mistakes will give you more insight into corrections that will work for you and help mould your pup into the best he can be and you into a knowledgable owner.

Schwinn
September 20th, 2007, 09:50 PM
my dog translator!!! dont you have one???? you just gotta see this thing working! it only cause me my 3rd born!! (3rd, not 1st hahaha they said she was too scrawny!)

in all seriousness... i have no idea what it is. i google imaged 'strange machine' and that was one of the things that came up!

-ashley

I've seen those before...whatever you do, don't lick it!!! Trust me!

mummummum
September 20th, 2007, 10:04 PM
Kigdano in all honesty sometimes you are the "master of your own demise". When you get some time, have a look at some of your posts from when you joined in July foward but look at them objectively, as if you were a reader and not person with the problem.

While you are becoming more approachable and welcoming of advice, you were and can still be pretty rough around the edges and a more than a little confrontational. And certainly a few months ago your first course of action in training or treatement of your dog always seemed to be one that would be considered aggressive. You are settling somewhat and that the only reason we don't kick the cr*p out of you :D ~ kidding.

I don't know you from Adam and I can't see your face as we are "talking" so you have to be mindful of how what you write wil be interpreted and misinterpreted by others.

I've had my own dogs for over thirty years and I can assure you that I've forgotten more mistakes that I've made over the years than you'll EVER make and what's more I STILL make mistakes or wish I had done something differently. If there's one thing I've learned from dog's it's humility :laughing:

want4rain
September 20th, 2007, 10:34 PM
I've seen those before...whatever you do, don't lick it!!! Trust me!

BZZZZZZZT!!!

-ash

Dog Dancer
September 21st, 2007, 12:18 PM
Okay, well not sure what to put in here really. Pitgrrl gave some good advice and that's what I was going to suggest also. My lab is nuts when she see's another dog go by. I now carry treats with me. When we see a dog coming down the street I wait until they are relatively near (although I usually cross the road because I have two largeish dogs and the one who is very quiet is the dog aggressive one) but when they are nearing us I put both dogs in a sit. The lab I tell to look at me and I offer her a treat. But she has to go through her steps to get the treat. Give a paw, sit, maybe down, other paw... Treat - dog is gone. No fuss. The trick is getting her attention before she reacts to the dog. After much doing this she now anticipates the sit and the treat. The key is to distract and reward the good behavior. And now I don't have to give her a treat all the time, praise will also work. I also carry a lazer pointer that she loves. When a dog is coming I can also say "look for spot" and she'll focus on chasing the light instead of on the other dog. We still have bad moments, but they are few and far between. Good luck.