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i know you are never supposed to hit your dog

kigndano
September 18th, 2007, 04:32 PM
but my pup took of yesterday when he heard the neighbors dog outside...

so i called his name and he ran faster....

then i went to the neighbors, grabbed him on the collar and gave him a smack in the head.

just one of those things that happened

mika140
September 18th, 2007, 06:03 PM
One of the most important aspects of being a good dog handler / trainer is that you learn to correct the dog only because it is necessary, not because you feel angry.

Obviously if you're researching issues on this forum, I believe you really care about your dog and want to do things right......but you can't let this happen again. Hitting your dog cannot be something that just happens. You will severely damage your dog's trust in you....and in some areas it could even be considered criminal. The dog may feel the same pain as it would from a strong collar correction, but psychologically they will be much worse off, and the appearance alone of people seeing you hit your dog would be enough to call animal control.

I'm not saying that you're a bad handler/person, etc., but you need to figure out what to do next time so that you will not hit your dog. Learn how to correct your dog without hitting him. Because the only way you will have long-term success with that pup is if you earn his trust. He should not be afraid of your hands, etc. If you want a stable, normal dog, you need to really address what I suppose must have been the anger you felt at your dog when you hit him. You have to control that anger, if you want to be a successful dog handler. If the dog needs a correction, he needs a correction, but anger should be left out of it.

My dog has failed recalls with me before also.....and I've gotten angry. But I've learned that her failures are a result of my training failures...and if I've corrected her, it's the level of correction she needs, regardless of how I feel.

BMDLuver
September 18th, 2007, 06:12 PM
Look at it this way... the dog made contact with you and you punished him for it. So now, coming to you means punishment in his mind. Probably not the relationship you were striving for. Try next time to think the process through instead of reacting first, thinking second. Your dog will appreciate it in the long run and respect you for it much more.

~michelle~
September 18th, 2007, 06:18 PM
I understand you were angry, scared, and upset, you lost your cool. Im sure many of us have lost our cool before.
saying that look at what you have now taught your dog

call him, he runs, you get close - he gets hit, all youve taught him in this situation is that he better stay far enough from you that he doesnt get hit.

You need to be really careful with some of the aggressive methods you are using with your dog, ie alpha rolling, hitting. its a recipes for diaster. you have a mal cross right? if so you need to be careful of them getting away they are stubborn and love to run. you need to make recall something he WANTS to do, or make sure there is never a situation that they can get free.

my suggestion is as soon as you get back to work, hire a trainer for some one on one sessions to help you specifically train your dog.

kigndano
September 18th, 2007, 06:45 PM
i see what you are saying

but i dont think he links it like that

i came up to him, he didnt run over to me if he cameback to me i wouldnt have lost my cool at all. he ran across the road through traffic, and could have gotten us both killed.

kigndano
September 18th, 2007, 06:46 PM
and please dont call hitting a method i am using

i dont hit him

it happened

~michelle~
September 18th, 2007, 06:57 PM
your dog doesnt KNOW that he was putting his life in danger- he didnt and never will make that assumption. he will make the assumption that you hit him when coming after him

The consequences of an action DIRECTLY effect the likeliness of them reoccuring. if he came to you and got a cookie he is more likely to do it. if he runs and you catch him and you hit him hell just make sure he runs faster and further next time. the one thing your dog does realize he CAN outrun you

mummummum
September 18th, 2007, 08:00 PM
and please dont call hitting a method i am using

i dont hit him

it happened

Nothing just happens and no one just lashes out without thinking. Somewhere in your consciousness physical violence is an acceptable reaction to a situation ~ you've found your situation.

The question now is what do you do with that knowledge about yourself and how does that play out in your relationship with your dog ~ do you want a dog who fears you or do you want a dog who respects you?

LavenderRott
September 18th, 2007, 08:13 PM
i see what you are saying

but i dont think he links it like that

i came up to him, he didnt run over to me if he cameback to me i wouldnt have lost my cool at all. he ran across the road through traffic, and could have gotten us both killed.

I certainly hope that you are not thinking that the dog is aware that he ran through traffic and put his life and yours in danger.

The only thing that your dog learned was that your hand is capable of hurting him. I can promise you he is not going to put all the why's and wherefor's together.

CyberKitten
September 18th, 2007, 08:30 PM
Dogs do not think like we do. We cannot ascribe them anthropomorphic notions and assume they think like us. They do not. Your poor puppy is now scared of you - once you hit a dog, it takes awhile for him to learn to be unafraid f you and he may seem to be unafraid but hitting a dog (whatever the reason and even as a reaction) is NEVER acceptable, EVER!!!! It is abuse pure and simple. At lest you realize it was the wrong thing to do and can work to fixing the relationship with him but perhaps hiring a trainer or going to obedience class when you are having this kind of trouble is a good option for you.

erykah1310
September 18th, 2007, 09:02 PM
I'm sorry but...
honestly everyone. I have lost my cool once or twice, once definately with Nikita. I never hit her but I did grab her hard one time because she scared the crap out of me.. now i know dogs dont put the hows and why's to what happened, but honestly. Once and now this dog is going to forever fear the owner?? Not likely.
However I must admit it was origionally posted so non shaulauntly
but my pup took of yesterday when he heard the neighbors dog outside...

so i called his name and he ran faster....

then i went to the neighbors, grabbed him on the collar and gave him a smack in the head.

just one of those things that happened
I do agree that its not one of those things that just happen. But I can relate. Needless to say Nikita's big bad run in with angry mom hasnt scarred her:eek: she doesnt( and didnt immediately after the "incident") cower from or take off running if im calling her for fear of being "grabbed abruptly and roughly" again.

Honestly from the "feel" of this thread, I dont see a purpose for it to have started, "I hit my dog... oops" perhaps the OP should have asked "what now" because in reality there is a what now.

Either the OP continues hitting or learns from it. If the dog indeed has been traumatized from this apparent one time slip of judgement or whatever you want to call it. Then the what now, is undoing what has been done, it wont be that hard as long as the OP gets on it right away.
Either way yes, perhaps the OP does need to rethink their ways but come on, have none of you ever made a mistake??? Honestly!
I have and have no shame in admitting them. Apparently people who make mistakes this day in age are few and far between.:shrug::rolleyes:

~michelle~
September 18th, 2007, 09:19 PM
i know i have made mistakes. the thing about it is asking yourself how to do it differently
what can make you react calmly and appropriately?
what can i do to avoid these situations?
how can i train my dog more effectively

not giving the but this.... and if he didnt do that and did this then ..... would have been different

it takes a big person to admit they have dont something wrong it take an even bigger person to do something about it.

the dog has already nipped at the OP, and IMO he uses forceful training tactics. this just adds to it all. and maybe the OP could use some assistance on having a calm training approach that would be more beneficial to the dog and the OPs blood pressure


Now i know i am sounding harsh, and dont get me wrong I believe the OP truly is trying to train his dog effectively. he post frequently on here trying to learn how to do it better, i just think after having a couple of the incidents hes had in the last week could definately use some help to accelerate the process. I would really hate to see this dog and owner be remarkably frustrated a year from now and have some really negative behaviours to deal with

mika140
September 18th, 2007, 09:20 PM
Following up from my earlier post, I also did not realize how young your pup is......he must be about 7 months, correct? If he cannot handle competing motivations with the recall yet, it is because he is still a puppy. I wouldn't even go to a serious correction for a dog that age with a recall.....he probably doesn't have the foundation yet to expect him to recall under those competing motivations. Any recall training for him should be fun.

But that is only the superficial issue. The real issue goes back to dealing with your anger and preventing it from damaging your dog into the future. Because you will have more occurrences when your dog makes you angry. Make sure you never let that come into the way you treat him again. Nothing just happens.....you are in control of your actions and however you treat your dog in the future is a choice.

It's good to see that you're seeking out advice about what happened though. Obviously you care very much for your dog......and people here are trying to help. Please take the advice to heart and don't let defensive feelings get in the way.

mummummum
September 18th, 2007, 09:22 PM
I think it's important to remember that this is a puppy we are talking about.

And in following kigdano's threads and postings since joining in July 2007, there is a common denominator which underscores his way of thinking about acceptable dog training methods whether it's choke chains and prong collars, physical "correction" and alpha rolling.

t.pettet
September 18th, 2007, 10:12 PM
From all the posts you and your dog seem to have major issues. At his tender age he is like an open book that you are helping to instill bad qualities in. If you don't have the patience or are not willing to use the advice given to assist you then do him a favour and atleast have both of you accessed in every aspect of your training methods and follow through. He doesn't need to be a statistic in a shelter like so many who were not handled correctly.

Schwinn
September 18th, 2007, 11:04 PM
I'm with erykah on this one, but that being said, I've got to say...

Was there a question here? What was you point with your post?

"Hey, this'll piss them off, watch this!"

Given your pattern (I lurk WAY MORE than I post lately), I really question your motives...

Lukka'sma
September 18th, 2007, 11:34 PM
Was there a question here? What was you point with your post?

"Hey, this'll piss them off, watch this!"

Given your pattern (I lurk WAY MORE than I post lately), I really question your motives...

My thoughts exactly when I read this thread.

Dracko
September 18th, 2007, 11:41 PM
Ditto to the above.

badger
September 18th, 2007, 11:49 PM
Amen, Schwinn. But it is never too late and people have given excellent advice. They all love their dogs and are still able to train them - however big the challenge - without all these aggressive tactics.

Kidndano, I think you are here again because your methods aren't working; in fact, you are probably already seeing signs that they are in fact undermining your relationship with your dog. Maybe he flinches, even when you have no intention of rolling him or hanging him out to dry or whatever you do to get his respect. Don't you just hate an animal that flinches?

I challenge you to abandon this approach and consistently follow some of these other methods, just commit to it for, say, a month. I think you would be very very surprised.

goober
September 19th, 2007, 03:08 AM
would you lash out at a child and hit him for not behaving no .....
this is uneceptable a dog has the mentality of a 2 year child
i certainly would not strike my boy for this
try some pawsitive canine training "you " and your dog

Ford Girl
September 19th, 2007, 11:46 AM
There is something to be said for a 7 month old pup...it's in an adolencent stage right now, and everything you do will have a lasting effect on it, big or small, now is the time for legitimate training, by a professional trainer if such resources exisit in your area, this will open up a whole new chapter on your dogs development. At 7 months they are mischevious, dont always listen, challange your role and their status in the pack, disregard commands....it's very frustrating to say the least, for both of you. They will thrive on consistancey, leadership and positive reinforcment. They are in their second fear stage of life (not to mention the second chewing stage :evil: ). Your dog shoudln't be off leash, even in an off leash park. You can even use the leash inside to reinfocre manners.

We've all been there, trust me, I am not judgeing you, just suggesting you take this stage and your dogs training seriously - now is the time to lay out manners and behaviors you expect from your dog, have patience, and try positive reinforment.

I too have lost my cool, and grabbed her collar too roughly when she really ticked me off, and instanly regretted it, my dog wouldn't be one of those dog that would submitt to aggressive corrections, she's fight back with every ounce of her being...serioulsy. I recognized it the instant I grabbed her collar, and have never done it since. Live and learn, don't continue to do things that don't work.

Longblades
September 19th, 2007, 11:54 AM
Pup is 7 months old? A perfect time to instill the COME command. Assuming you are working hard to get good recall (and with your breed I believe it may be especially difficult) and doing lots of practice. Have you tried running AWAY from your dog?

Call him. PUP - COME (his name is not the command but you use it to get his attention)

Run like mad away. Even if he isn't looking he'll probably catch the action out of the corner of his eye. Most dogs are hard wired to chase after something that is moving fast, plus you should be an object he desires, plus when he catches up to you he is going to get the very best treat you can afford. Or a play or a hug or a toy he especially likes. Save your best treats for the COME command. COME is the command that may save your dog's life; it's the most important command.

Don't worry about getting a formal front with the proper sit in front of you at first but start to work it in gradually as you go along. Unless you intend to compete in obedience trials a formal sitting in front of you isn't necessary anyway. It does help you dog to know when he has completed all you want though.

Make it part of the fun you have when out with your dog. Do it in a safe place without distractions at first. As in the situation you first posted about, you probably will find it hard to run away when your dog is about to do something wrong, but give it a try. Be prepared to get some funny looks from people who think you should come and get your dog. It will look like you are running away from the situation but once pup is under control (with lots of happy hugs and treats) you can go back and explain.

Kristin7
September 19th, 2007, 12:30 PM
That is a great idea, Longblades, I have never heard of that run away from the dog technique. I bet it works w/ many dogs! Will have to try it on mine, as he is not always one to come when I call, esp if something fun is going on. I can understand feeling frustrated about that, but hitting a dog when you finally get over by him is not going to help at all - just the opposite in fact. Plus, he doesn't understand why you were angry. Given his breed, he may never be the most obedient dog, but you could try some different methods and set him up for success, then praise his successes, make training fun for him. Admittedly having lost my cool in the past and hit my dog a couple times, I find counting slowly to 20 and taking some deep breaths helps. One time my dog was being very obnoxious on the leash and playing with some dogs on the other side of a fence while we were walking near a street where people often drive a bit too fast... he was totally ignoring me and wouldn't stop, so I spanked his butt (not hard), which actually worked very well to get his attention and we went on our way w/o anymore problems. I realize it was the wrong thing to do, but it seemed to help.

SEVIIN
September 19th, 2007, 12:59 PM
Hey, I know you've got some good answers but I thought I would give you a suggestion. My dog used to do this everytime our neighbors dog came outside so we always have her chained on a leash now when she's outside. We taught her the word treat as reference to 'come' because she wouldn't learn come, even when we gave her a treat (go figure), so whenever we say treat she ALWAYS stops anything she is doing in her tracks and comes back, so that is her new word for come when she is outdoors. When she is indoors, she comes to 'come' and then we don't have to feel obligated to give her a treat.

Also, if you are in an area that is big and your dog takes off and you can't get her to come back, trying running the other directions and screatching really giddy like. That usually helps when we are at the beach or something but she doesn't really have those problems now. I'm just trying to correct her behavior while she's actually WITH dogs now, ugh! Good Luck and try not to beat yourself up for giving him a little smack, you came here for advice which shows you obviously don't want to be doing that.

Lise
September 20th, 2007, 10:36 AM
Just to offer my opinion.Mals are babies usually until at least two,especially males,many of the northern breeds require patient postive training from an experienced trainer.They can be especially tough to recall.All animals can try your patience,believe me I know I often have as many as twenty of them around me.Discipling a dog for failing to recall is a sure way of making him never want to come back.Whenever you're working with an animal imagine someone speaking a foreign language to you and everytime you got something wrong you got a smack or disciplined with no explination that you understood.

kigndano
September 20th, 2007, 10:38 AM
i know

i know

i know

i know



please read my rant on the other board