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at my wits end with walking the dog

kigndano
September 16th, 2007, 10:52 AM
hey all

my dog will NOT stop lunging at any person we pass by, walking, running, walking with a dog, raking the leaves in their lawn.

im about to go get a prong collar, he's immune to the choke chain, it doesnt even phase him the slightest bit.

any other suggestions?

i would describe it as excited aggressiveness, but he scares the hell out of everyone and today he got so wound up i had to plop him on his back again because he was challenging me!

kigndano
September 16th, 2007, 10:54 AM
and please do not complain about me alpha rolling the dog, he needs it done to him. hes an extremely dominant dog. he wont even let the neighbors dog drink out of his own water bowl when they play.

if i have to toss him on his side 1000000 times to get the point across im prepared to do it at this point. his behaviour is completely anti-social and unacceptable.

crazydays
September 16th, 2007, 11:48 AM
Question- has he had obedience class? That question isn't sarcastic by any means. How old? Is walking his mean source of exercise? How often do you get him out?

kigndano
September 16th, 2007, 12:13 PM
no obedience class, i simply cant afford it right now

i just lost my job this past week so its not an option right now unfortunately.

i am going to have to train him myself, and no one here is going to like that, but thats my life right now, so i have to make do.

he walks daily; 2-3 miles, he plays 2-3 times a week with the neighbors shephard for about an hour, and he gets outside time whenever i have a minute to sit outside with him and relax.

some days in addition to my walk, my father takes him on a 1-2 mile jog in the evening as well.

sugarcatmom
September 16th, 2007, 12:52 PM
Maybe check out some of the info on this page: http://www.dogstardaily.com/article/hyper-dog

kigndano
September 16th, 2007, 12:56 PM
thanks for the link

pitgrrl
September 16th, 2007, 02:16 PM
What have you tried other than flipping him over?

Do you think it's an over excited attempt at greeting people or does it seem like he's aggressively lunging at them (snapping? etc.) ? (I'm just not clear on what "excited aggressiveness" means.)

Does he know a heel command? Any sort of 'focus on me' command? A leave/ignore it command?

Will he work for food? Toys? Attention? Basically, what's the thing that really does it for him?

kigndano
September 16th, 2007, 03:09 PM
i have tried:

verbal corrections

just trying to walk on by

leash corrections

touching him on the neck or belly to redirect him



he wont work for anything consistently; some days he'll chase after whatever i throw, some days he ignore that

some times he will eagerly do sit/down/stay for treats, other days he loses interest.

he is a very self-minded/independent dog and works for whatever he feels like day to day.

he does know "drop" but that is for when he has a toy in his mouth, not for leaving a situation alone.

and as far as excited aggression, he is tail wagging and also lunging at the end of the leash..so its hard to tell for me. it starts with tail wagging and then the closer we get, in conjunction with the corrections not working he starts lunging/pulling/chewing on his leash. i tried to make him sit down today and he nipped at my hand so i put him on his back because, well, that was the last straw for me.

Winston
September 16th, 2007, 03:23 PM
prong collar worked for me...sorry for those that disagree!

Cindy

kigndano
September 16th, 2007, 03:39 PM
winston

can you just tell me if theres anything i should know before i get one?

when do I have to pull on it?

or does the dog correct himself by simply walking out too far or pulling and having the prongs sink in?

mika140
September 16th, 2007, 03:43 PM
Prong/pinch collar has worked for me as well. No other collar will reach my dog....and she barely reacts to the pinch collar sometimes. I'd love to use toys/food, but in our neighborhood they won't work at all for her because she gets soooo fired up.

One other suggetion.....if you are currently walking her around your neighborhood when you encounter the problems, try somewhere else first. Maybe drive to a park in a different area, where there won't be the territorial issues. Once your dog can be neutral to other dogs/people in that environment, then tackle the homefront.

mika140
September 16th, 2007, 03:56 PM
Just a follow-up: although a pinch collar may be the right collar for your dog eventually, it is important that your dog first understand and know the commands that he would be corrected for with the collar. So if you dog does not know heel, sit, down, etc......he should be taught and fully understand those commands first, before you move to the pinch collar. (I wasn't sure from your post if he already knew those or was still in training learning them). I'd work on those commands first, in an environment without distractions so that you know he understands them, then slowly add in the distractions in a neutral environment. Without distractions around, he should work for a toy or food reward (perhaps try to find a toy/food that holds higher value for him).

Winston
September 16th, 2007, 04:08 PM
Well put Mika140....Kingdano...Winston just new that he could not pull...I only have had to give a little tug on it once and he new to slow down....I thought it would hurt him but it doesnt if you use it properly...Hard handed corrections could hurt your boy! Other than that as your doggie grows you can buy additional links for it! I could not walk Winston otherwise...as he is too strong!

Cindy

kigndano
September 16th, 2007, 04:08 PM
im nearly 100 percent sure he knows sit/down

LavenderRott
September 16th, 2007, 04:44 PM
If you are going to get a prong or force collar for your dog, make sure it fits right. It should be snug, high up on the neck. You need to take it apart at the links to put in on and take it off - if it slides over the dogs' head then it is entirely too loose.

As for alpha rolling your dog - do as you see fit. But since this forum has about 500 guests a day that don't register, just read for the info that they feel is pertinent to them and their pets - I am going to post this anyway.

Alpha rolling an excited dog is dangerous. By becoming excited (physical) with the dog, you are just "adding fuel to the fire". The best response to an already excited dog is to become very calm and firm. Often, a hand slipped into a collar will give the control that you will need to get the upper hand on the situation. (Don't forget your voice. While we sometimes remember to calm our body language in most situations, we often still forget to lower our voices. Once you start the calming with the hand in the collar, you should find that the quieter your voice the better the response.)

If you think about this - it makes perfect sense. If you are excited (angry) about something and jumping up and down yelling - do you calm down when someone yells back at you and jumps up and down?

Winston
September 16th, 2007, 05:16 PM
If you are going to get a prong or force collar for your dog, make sure it fits right. It should be snug, high up on the neck. You need to take it apart at the links to put in on and take it off - if it slides over the dogs' head then it is entirely too loose.

As for alpha rolling your dog - do as you see fit. But since this forum has about 500 guests a day that don't register, just read for the info that they feel is pertinent to them and their pets - I am going to post this anyway.

Alpha rolling an excited dog is dangerous. By becoming excited (physical) with the dog, you are just "adding fuel to the fire". The best response to an already excited dog is to become very calm and firm. Often, a hand slipped into a collar will give the control that you will need to get the upper hand on the situation. (Don't forget your voice. While we sometimes remember to calm our body language in most situations, we often still forget to lower our voices. Once you start the calming with the hand in the collar, you should find that the quieter your voice the better the response.)

If you think about this - it makes perfect sense. If you are excited (angry) about something and jumping up and down yelling - do you calm down when someone yells back at you and jumps up and down?

I agree totally with this! It could be so dangerous to do that to your dog! A calm and firm command should be adequate!~ I also agree with the proper fitting of the prong collar..you need to take your dog with you..

Cindy

kigndano
September 16th, 2007, 05:19 PM
i understand controlling the situation, and i appreciate your concern for my safety. but i am a big guy (6'0 190 lbs) and i can hold my own against my dog.

i do not get exicted at all, i simply grab him on the side of the neck, push down and say "enough".


i was going to bring his regular collar that fits pretty snugly along with me, i cant bring him to petco, hed probably start a scene with the other dogs.

kigndano
September 16th, 2007, 05:21 PM
and i will make sure to fit the collar high up on the neck and snug.

and NO firm corrections with it, small tugs.

thanks again

~michelle~
September 16th, 2007, 05:25 PM
i wouldnt try things such as an alpha roll unless you have been specifically told it is appropriate for your dog by a certified trainer and all other positive reinforcement methods are tried.
I am going to jump to a conclusion that you are not too experienced in dog training (correct me if i am wrong, i dont mean to insult we've all been new to it at some point and time.)

from the sounds of it you dont have alot of positive reinforcement in your repitoire. it (IMO) takes a balance of praise and punishment to teach anyone anything. try maybe having people you know work with you and your dog. have a friend walk by when the person is at a distance when they are further away but your dog can see them if they are acting appropriately praise praise praise.... continue to do praise as the person comes closer and your dog is still acting appropriately. when your dog starts acting like they maybe inappropriate (ears forward, tails down, anything that signifies that your dog is going to lunge) try to get their attention a hey, look at me , or a leave it, if they do the desired treat them, if they do proceed to "lunge" towards the person, that is the time for punishment, a stern no, walk away, take away a toy, put them in down etc... depends on the dog what is appropriate for them. try over and over and over again

as for a prong collar you NEVER pull on it, it is self correcting and as the dog pulls it will pinch. you should seek the advice of a professional on proper use of the prong (no not the sales person at petsmart, they dont know proper training techniques) you could get a prong collatr for your walks but you also need to use training on top of this method, as i find only using a prong collar as a bandaid method to cover up the problem, but it doent actually teach your dog.

also try nothing in life is free method, making your dog work for everything, including pats. make your dog sit (or something) before giving pats as that will teach them that is the ONLY way they are getting pats, not jumping at people.

think of training dogs like you would a kindergarden student. you dont just tell them what they do wrong, that doesnt teach them much of anything or give them motivation to impress or please you, instead you correct what they do wrong and you praise what they do right. this speeds up progress of learning as they understand faster, have the desire to please you, and overall improves your relationship!


good luck

kigndano
September 16th, 2007, 05:54 PM
i do practice NILIF training

he sits to get his leash on/off

sits to enter/leave the house

down/stay before feeding

sit to get more water etc etc

there is plenty of positive reinforcement also, but what i have been told is that to say good boy good boy and give treats every 2 feet of walking is not the right way to train a dog to walk on leash.

and winston was the reason i was going to do small tugs for corrections, i figured she knew what the deal was.

kigndano
September 16th, 2007, 05:55 PM
and i alpha roll him because i feel that he sees himself as being leader of me, and to me that is completely unacceptable.

i dont think giving him handfuls of treats and praise is going to change his mind.

Winston
September 16th, 2007, 06:16 PM
Sorry to confuse people...I only had to do a leash correction with it once and that was for his safety..I dont tug on it..and it is self correcting....You will know what I mean once you try it...as the dog pulls forward the collar comes together to pinch..but maybe I have mine loose because it doesnt really pinch..it tightens up??WInston has never yelped or whined or anything with it on...for me it is strictly for control. it is hard to explain..You do need some room for the links to tighten...my boy is 100 pounds so it is a large collar and I have extra pieces to lengthen it...

Check it out and see if it works for you??

Cindy

~michelle~
September 16th, 2007, 06:45 PM
treats arent the only kind of praise/reward they can be helpful but I find it depends on the dog. you need to know what your dog loves to give them as a treat. I use mostly positive and enjoyable touch to praise my dogs as well as verbal praise, as that is what they love most but will keep them focused in me and the exercise (one of my dogs doesnt like treats and i find the other 2 become too distracted by them) I have dogs that pulled when we got them!!! (i mean pulled!!!!) Logan alone (who is 70lbs) can pull 300lbs! I am not against the prong collar as i have considered it, but found more appropriate training methods to use for me and my dogs.
the true key is (IMO) finding the biggest reward for your dog because if they "arent getting it" what they are trying to get with the bad bahaviour is more valuable to them than the reward. ie. i need to use something really valuable to logan when he wants to chase a squirrel (its one of the few things i use treats to train him from running after) because to him chasing a squirrel is more enjoyable than a belly rub. it getting in the mind frame of your dog.
if your alpha roll isnt working there are many other things that are more common in dogs than the alpha rool to prove leadership. as alpha roll are used infrequently in dogs/wolves

things to try but must be done on a consistant basis.

eating before your dog

walking through any small entrance/doorway/ narrowing before your dog

making them move out of your way when they are laying/ sitting somewhere rather than going around them.

practice long time down and stays. (work up to 30 mins)


your dog has already bit you (or nipped) so he obviously doesnt see you as the higher up right now, so i would change your method. being the Alpha doesnt really require getting down to their level and challenging them (ie rolling) but being the alpha comes with a respect that will not be challenged often IMO. alpha rolling can be dangeous to an aggressive dog and yours is showing signs of aggression- it challanges them and they may feel the need to retaliate.

I dont mean to offend you or your training methods in anyway, but I do have 3 dogs all came to me as adults with a wide variety of problems from previous abuse to no socialization and all needing very different training methods. your description of your dogs behaviour sounds alot like my logan. hes very dominant, and trys to do what he wants (or use to anyways) and i am trying to give you tips that have worked the best with him and Ive tried everything.

I know you said you dont have enought $$ for OB classes but there are some wonderful training books out there, and many great resources online, just make sure to see the credentials. you can usually find newer books with great info at a used book store too!

maybe you can contact you local HS they may have lower priced OB classes to offer

sugarcatmom
September 16th, 2007, 06:47 PM
and i alpha roll him because i feel that he sees himself as being leader of me, and to me that is completely unacceptable.

i dont think giving him handfuls of treats and praise is going to change his mind.

It's possible that if you were to eliminate all meal feeding (no food whatsoever in a bowl), and only hand feed him his daily rations, that might change.

mummummum
September 16th, 2007, 07:51 PM
Your dog is actually still a puppy isn't he kigndano?

I don't think a prong collar is appropriate from either a health stand point or a training stand point for a puppy. I also don't understand your reason for alpha rolling. If something isn't working, and it obviously isn't for you and your dog, why keep doing it?

I seem to recall you had similar problems with him in July when you joined pets.ca. Why don't you check out Tenderfoot's training video ~ it's not overly expensive and speaks to the issues you have with your pup. I went through exactly what you are going through with my Declan, practiced her training advice consistently with him and now we have no more lunging, straining at his collar, pulling and barking.

kigndano
September 16th, 2007, 08:59 PM
i dont have any money right now, really

any money i ahve is for making bill payments, i just got laid off for having food poisoning and missing a road test. (pretty nice boss huh?)

you might be right about the alpha rolling thing, im starting to think it will never get the point across.

~michelle~
September 16th, 2007, 09:08 PM
tenderfoot has actually done a couple of podcasts with pets.ca there is one about walking properly on the leash that i used techniques from that was very helpful i think theyve done a couple of other podcast as well. you can check out those and maybe there will be some info that will help you

sorry to hear you lost your job that can be really frustrating and straining. good luck on finding something new soon!

geoffh4
September 17th, 2007, 12:58 PM
The one point Ill make is to ask whether or not the dog gets better as the walks go on? Malamutes require crazy amounts of excercise, so maybe thats the problem? If he was more tired, would he still be as poorly behaved?

want4rain
September 17th, 2007, 02:45 PM
im sorry if im restating what others have said, didnt go through all the responses.....

i dont know enough about an alpha roll to make a comment on it other than Mister sounds exactly like your dog. some things we have done to help this without using an alpha roll (since everyone seems to feel its bad)-

we didnt take him out of our property for weeks. i carried around the yummiest food i could find in my pocket at all times. several times through out the day i would say LOOK firmly. when he looked me in the eyes, held it without fail for more than 2 heart beats i woudl tell him GOOD! and give him the treat before he had a chance to look away. weeks, i did this along with my husband for WEEKS. then i took him to my moms... and again, we practiced LOOK there too. it was super easy other places to get him to do that but you have to faithfully have a treat of the super yummiest on you at all times and practice it OFTEN.

another thing that we decided to try before we got a martingale collar, the head collar. it worked a perfect miracle with Mister. the same dog that almost broke my hand on a leash walked calmly at my side within 20 minutes with the head collar. when i take him our i wear a pair of heeled work boots. if he even thinks of jumping without listening to me, i slip his leash just in front of the heel of my boot and gently pull his head to the ground until he stops thrashing. as he calms down i loosen. we ahve tried working with several friends to teach him the right way to greet people but they managed to confuse him more than help. at this point we will wait for him to calm down and have him leash greet anyone who comes in the house or simply be put up for it.

if you can find soemone capable of helping you teach him how to greet people, i believe Tenderfoot had a great technique for Ford Girl??? rewarding your dog for making the right decision is important.

another thing we have started doing is NOT using commands for everything. its been suggested from the get go to teach him HOW to do something to teach him to NOT do something but it only teaches him that there are words for certain things. he cant seem to make the connection that there are things we dont want him doing EVER such as licking Jeffreys face. for whatever reason, rewarding him for NOT doing somethign just doesnt seem to click with me. whats working (so far, little by little) is taking an aggressive stance when he does soemthing undesirable. when he licks Jeffrey, i leap up, make a growling/hmmm noise and i get right in his face and kind of push him with my hips to get back from Jeffreys face. the first time i did that, he flopped right onto his tummy. he didnt understand what he did wrong the first time but the second time he made the connection. now he only needs a little warning noise to know he is doing somethign wrong.

sort of this idea- a pack leader doesnt keep treats in her cheeks to bestow upon her pack mates. she(along with other members) gives affection and attention for pack harmony, growls, snaps or ignores unharmonious behavior. having a constant regard meter has worked well for us. Mister is in positive regard when he is harmonious and a negative regard when he is not harmonious. serious things get a greater reward(such as choice foods) or 'punishment'(such as growling and tapping/snapping)

ive also used a 'mom move', as ive started calling them, a few times. he has play bitten Jeffrey a few times. we tried and tried telling him, training him to NOT nip and bite on Jeffrey but it wasnt working. there were still nips and bites. finally id had enough. my 60lb dog was still biting my son. one time he did it screwing around and playing with Jeffrey and he was yanked off his feet so fast by the scruff of his neck.... he didnt know what hit him. he has only done that a few times since then and all those times on accident when he got carried away but it all got the exact same violent reaction. the reaction to harmfully biting a child/infant/person is death. the punishment for whatever it is that leads up to biting is as much of a degree higher.

setting standards for my dogs training that mirrored my childrens.... for example... not eating your crust got you crackers for lunch instead. back talking gets you a stern talking to, abusing your toys gets them taken away, opening the car door at 65miles per hour down the high way gets the car pulled over and your tail end spanked and a firm long lecture as to WHY she got spanked.

if Mister plays with his yucky (the ones that have yuck on them) ones in the living room, they get taken away or if he chews up his balls he gets them taken away. if he chews things he shouldnt be, he gets a firm admonishment. he bites my son, he gets flung to the ground by the scruff of his neck and removed from the family.

both he and my child know those are the worse things i could do to them. whatever it was that brought it on must have been the gravest offense.

i hope that helps!!

-ashley

kigndano
September 17th, 2007, 06:56 PM
The one point Ill make is to ask whether or not the dog gets better as the walks go on? Malamutes require crazy amounts of excercise, so maybe thats the problem? If he was more tired, would he still be as poorly behaved?

im not sure how to tired him out otherwise.

he doesnt like to play fetch for more than 2 or 3 minutes at a time, and the neighbors dog can only play after work.

that is a good thought though

kigndano
September 17th, 2007, 06:57 PM
and thanks to everyone for the responses

mummummum
September 18th, 2007, 01:40 PM
Interesting reading from a very good website noted by Otter in another thread (www.doggonesafe.com)

"Fear can be used to motivate a dog, but can also result in dogs that are emotionally unstable and more likely to bite than a happy dog. Training methods that involve yanking on the leash, hitting the dog, yelling at the dog, rolling the dog on it's back, pinning the dog down or shaking the dog by the scruff of the neck may make the dog fearful or angry and this could result in a bite to a child. The dog may fear (some people mistake this for respect) the person who does this kind of training but may redirect aggression toward weaker family members such as children."

MyBirdIsEvil
September 18th, 2007, 01:55 PM
Interesting reading from a very good website noted by Otter in another thread (www.doggonesafe.com)

"Fear can be used to motivate a dog, but can also result in dogs that are emotionally unstable and more likely to bite than a happy dog. Training methods that involve yanking on the leash, hitting the dog, yelling at the dog, rolling the dog on it's back, pinning the dog down or shaking the dog by the scruff of the neck may make the dog fearful or angry and this could result in a bite to a child. The dog may fear (some people mistake this for respect) the person who does this kind of training but may redirect aggression toward weaker family members such as children."

Great info right there, much better than most of us could explain it.

Motivating a dog by fear or physical force will gain a quick and sometimes impressive result, but it will only cause problems down the road.

You don't teach a dog that you are an "alpha" by acting angry, aggressive, or using abusive tactics. You never see the leader of a pack of canines attacking the other members or physically restraining them to get respect. Most bickering in a pack is done by the lower members between each other.

want4rain
September 18th, 2007, 02:29 PM
i dont mean to advocate abusing any living creature... under any circumstance. fear should never be the reason you spank your child or reprimand your dog. i dont spank my child nor reprimand Mister to induce fear. its used to express a severity. does Cailyn ever fear me? the time she got chill out at school.... probably but it wasnt because i ever spanked her for chill out. she felt BAD for being BAD in school. does she quiver in fear every time she opens the car door? no, she barely contains her anticipation to go home, the car to come to a COMPLETE stop, undo her seat belt and then LEAP WITH NO GRACE out of the car. does she understand, when we are driving, you dont open the car door?? yes. without question.

when training your dog, commands are really requests. a give and take. you desire a reaction, you basically bribe your dog into doing what you want him to. if what you bribe him with is desirable enough, he will do it. if not, he hesitates... is lazy about it... chewing on Jeffrey was not a request. putting his teeth on a persons body may be a slip others accept but it is NOT here.

i ask Cailyn to clean her room, eat her dinner and do her homework. i demand her to NOT run with scissors, keep doors closed when driving and look both ways when crossing a road.

i want Mister to sit on command, not jump on people and not chew his yucky toys on the carpeting. i demand he not put his teeth, in any situation other than protecting this family, on another human being.

i dont mean to sound so touchy about this but lumping a carefully chosen decision in with people who routinely beat their dog to obedience isnt fair. this sort of falls under the whole 'never ever spank your child' thing.

-ashley

mummummum
September 18th, 2007, 10:47 PM
If we accept that age is an intellectual, psycho-social and emotional thing not just a physical thing, then I think you might be comparing apples and oranges in comparing Cailyn and Mister, Wanted4rain. Mister's total "age" is closer related to Jeffrey (infant/toddler) than Cailyn (early pre-teen). Not all dogs have complex associative learning abilities ( ie. chewing here but not there, then but not now, this but not that, him but not her {kidding :D}) and they most certainly don't when they are young. That takes life experience and patient, methodical teaching.

breeze
September 18th, 2007, 11:20 PM
I have noticed that no one has segested a halti or the newtrix.. It has worked wonders on my other dogs including Bree. It does take a little time getting the dog use to it, but IMO works better than a prong collar, if fitted properly. no more lunges or walking in front of me, and you don't have to snap, or pull to get their attention. small tug is all you need.