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Nilif

want4rain
September 9th, 2007, 08:47 PM
so help me with this.... when Mister bugs me for attention, ie he is nudging my hands.... what do i do? ive been making NO reaction for almost 2 months now with no impact. ive told Chris and Cailyn that it is vitally important to follow my lead with him but its hit or miss with them. its a split second to make an impact with this, im not sure what to do with these things that are undefinable. soemthign is misfiring here for him to NOT get that he is not going to get petted when he sticks his nose in my hand.

he is also nosing mens crotches painfully.

i feel like every single move i make with this dog had a profound impact from the look on my face when i let him in the door to my first movement in the morning... i feel like things i am not even aware of are creating habits in him, are feeding this dominant behavior.

over the last two weeks he has worked Chris into making him tell him 3 times to lay down. not 2, not 4, 3.

i dont know, i feel like i am constantly on guard or my dog will take over my home while we arent looking.

ive referred back to a few NILIF pages over the last few months to keep myself on track... the only thing we never really did was the separation period one lady suggests. does some thing like that really make that much of a difference??

the only two things i dont make him work for is going outside to go potty and his water. the rest of it he has to go through at least one of his commands for.

-ashley

want4rain
September 9th, 2007, 09:13 PM
also, id like to say we never had that extinction whatever they talk about concerning ANY of the things that were free before but arent now. when i went through and assessed which things needed to be earned, things that were already being earned, in honesty we had far far more things that were already earned. we started off hand feeding him and making him work for each bite of food. same with our games such as fetch and also to go for a walk, get his collar back on after a bath, leash for a walk... brushing... all of those things were earned from the get go. the moment he walked in the door we worked with him that way. the few thigns that we didnt was letting him out. he rang a bell to get let out. he still randomly jingles the bell to go out but we dont jump up to let him out. we do when we get around to it. also, he has free range water outside that gets refilled any time we go out (at least twice a day). other than that, he works for it or gets ignored.

anyways, when he does somethign wrong we give a firm NO!. when that fails we put him in the kitchen. when that fails we kennel him. for example- he has always licked Jeffreys face. ive always told him NO LICK! firmly with the mom face and i stand over him. the second time he does it is usually a few minutes later. i tell him NO LICK give him the firm mom face and then banish him to the kitchen for 5 minutes. from there 2 things happen. if he is feeling neglected he whines at the gate. (let me note here that we have never ever in any way shape or form reacted to him whining at the gate. period.) if he whines at the gate i kennel him after giving him a firm HUSH! if he doesnt whine, i let him back in after 5 minutes. if he does it again i tell him firmly NO LICK and then kennel him. at that point the time spent in the kennel goes up or i just call it done for the time. i give him 5-10 minutes depending on how stubborn he was and then let him out back instead of the livingroom with us.

you know, raising kids is easier than this!

-ashley

mummummum
September 9th, 2007, 09:29 PM
What behaviour would you like Mr. to exhibit if he wants petting/ loving attention?
Or...
Would you like Mr. to never ask for attention and receive attention only upon your initiation?


How is it Mister is getting anywhere near to the crotch of man's trousers and where/ when does this occur?


What does Chris do after telling Mister to lie down the first time?

want4rain
September 9th, 2007, 10:00 PM
[QUOTE=mummummum;475749]What behaviour would you like Mr. to exhibit if he wants petting/ loving attention?
Or...
Would you like Mr. to never ask for attention and receive attention only upon your initiation?

we would like Mister to never ASK for attention. it seems to be the cornerstone for NILIF and honestly, i have things in my hands too often for him to decide THEN is the time he wants to be petted... it seems to happen often. :)




How is it Mister is getting anywhere near to the crotch of man's trousers and where/ when does this occur?

for example, Chris comes home from work, in his excitement Mister gives him a 'nuts check' as Chris calls it. or when we are at training, if i give him to Chris, nuts check, to the trainer, nuts check... Chris to Charlie (our trainer) nuts check... anyone when walking wants to pet him, nuts check. he will sit and keep his butt planted (most of the time, if not, no pets) but regardless he gives a nuts check.


What does Chris do after telling Mister to lie down the first time?

*NOW* Chris says it once and if he doesnt he makes him lay down by pulling his collar down and making a scowley face at him without repeating himself. if he (now) does it the first time he gets tons of lovings and praise for a longer duration than the scowl(just to make sure its super clear).

-ashley

mummummum
September 9th, 2007, 10:56 PM
.we would like Mister to never ASK for attention

Then should you not be interrupting him with a command (ie. sit/stay, lie down) before he even gets near you and has a chance to ask for attention?



for example, Chris comes home from work, in his excitement Mister gives him a 'nuts check' as Chris calls it. or when we are at training, if i give him to Chris, nuts check, to the trainer, nuts check... Chris to Charlie (our trainer) nuts check... anyone when walking wants to pet him, nuts check. he will sit and keep his butt planted (most of the time, if not, no pets) but regardless he gives a nuts check.

This made me howl ~ specially since Ceili does the same thing to both men and women but only in elevators where there isn't alot of room to maneuver. :eek:

Again it's the interrupting his thought before it becomes an action. If he hasn't mastered the sit without adding a nuts check (:laughing: ~ sorry), then certainly practice it at home where he won't be distracted but in the real life meet n' greets maybe a lie down is more appropriate for a moment or two so that he can regain his focus on you and your commands rather than his errrrrrmmm ... excitement ~ and after he is focussed on you (in the same way he would be if he was at heel) then move him into a sit.


*NOW* Chris says it once and if he doesnt he makes him lay down by pulling his collar down and making a scowley face at him without repeating himself. if he (now) does it the first time he gets tons of lovings and praise for a longer duration than the scowl(just to make sure its super clear).

Chris is taking the right track here but C.O.N.S.I.S.T.E.N.C.Y. is needed.

Just one thought. Sometimes "tons of loving and praise" can backfire on you if it is given too exuberantly, too often ~ the dog can become immune to it. You might want to keep a mental ticker count going to see if you are overdoing it and whether Mister is showing signs of "So what?".

Ford Girl
September 10th, 2007, 01:23 PM
We call the "nut check" the "BEANS" command, we joke that we taugh Dazy "BEANS"...she does this to one certain person/guy only so we don't have it was bad as you. Now when that person comes over, we get her to sit or down, then he approches covering his BEANS of course.

Lissa
September 10th, 2007, 04:03 PM
How old is Mister? And how much physical and mental stimulation does he get each day?? Since he's a labX, you've pretty much got an extra social dog with boundless energy - one who will likely turn 5 or 6 before leaving the "puppy stage"...:D So with that said, more stimulation is always helpful (if not necessary). Have you taken OB courses?
so help me with this.... when Mister bugs me for attention, ie he is nudging my hands.... what do i do? ive been making NO reaction for almost 2 months now with no impact. ive told Chris and Cailyn that it is vitally important to follow my lead with him but its hit or miss with them. its a split second to make an impact with this, im not sure what to do with these things that are undefinable. soemthign is misfiring here for him to NOT get that he is not going to get petted when he sticks his nose in my hand.
Dogs do not generalize well... they need rules in black and white... If they are grey, they'll offer whatever behaviour is most rewardable in their mind (whether its good or bad in ours). So even if he is being rewarded for nudging someone less than 10% of the time, its still worth it for most dogs.... Not to mention that just looking at Mister may be rewarding enough for him to keep doing it (with or without petting).
To combat this, I would invest in some interactive toys and/or give RMB's so that he is kept busy. I would also start doing some training - like teaching "settle" or "enough" (so you always have what I like to call "an off button" - where the dog, regardless of what he wants will go lay down and chill for however long is expected - HOWEVER, its only fair to use something like this if the dog is properly exercised (mentally/physically) AND is rewarded for it randomly (given a kong sometimes or other times just feed a few treats or praised or gets a special toy to chew on etc...).
Lastly if Mister is rarely/never rewarded for NOT nudging you, you need to start rewarding whenever he is quiet or giving you space. Dogs do what works for them, so you need to make it rewarding for Mister to NOT ask for petting. However, this only works within reason - you still need to physically touch him, just on your terms!
over the last two weeks he has worked Chris into making him tell him 3 times to lay down. not 2, not 4, 3.
That is a handler error, not a dog one... It's likely that Mister thinks he's doing right by waiting 3 times before complying. And physically forcing the dog into position (no matter how gently and with or without a scowly face) is teaching him to wait for you to make him do the right thing. Which you obviously don't want.
I also think its possible Mister doesn't truly understand what "down" means. For a dog to understand a command 100% he needs to be able to do all 3 D's (duration, distance, distracion) - so if you knowhe won't down at the dog park or for 5 minutes or 20 ft away from you (seperately or all at once), then the command has not been fully trained...
the only two things i dont make him work for is going outside to go potty and his water. the rest of it he has to go through at least one of his commands for.
he still randomly jingles the bell to go out but we dont jump up to let him out. we do when we get around to it. also, he has free range water outside that gets refilled any time we go out (at least twice a day). other than that, he works for it or gets ignored.
This bothers me... First of all, does this mean he doesn't have water indoors?
Secondly, you cannot teach him to ring a bell to go outside and then NOT him out when he does ring it. And you especially cannot ignore a request to go outside if that is his only source of water. If you are going to ignore him, then take the bell away because its confusing and unfair for Mister to do what's right and then be ignored!
anyways, when he does somethign wrong we give a firm NO!. when that fails we put him in the kitchen. when that fails we kennel him. for example- he has always licked Jeffreys face. ive always told him NO LICK! firmly with the mom face and i stand over him. the second time he does it is usually a few minutes later. i tell him NO LICK give him the firm mom face and then banish him to the kitchen for 5 minutes. from there 2 things happen. if he is feeling neglected he whines at the gate. (let me note here that we have never ever in any way shape or form reacted to him whining at the gate. period.) if he whines at the gate i kennel him after giving him a firm HUSH! if he doesnt whine, i let him back in after 5 minutes. if he does it again i tell him firmly NO LICK and then kennel him. at that point the time spent in the kennel goes up or i just call it done for the time. i give him 5-10 minutes depending on how stubborn he was and then let him out back instead of the livingroom with us.
You have to understand that words mean nothing to dogs unless we teach them... And "NO" is a pretty bland word to use because it really doesn't tell the dog what we want/expect, its just a way to stop them from doing something AT THAT moment (they don't understand that we NEVER want them to do it again). You also need to realize that dogs live in the moment - kenneling Mister for 5 minutes is pointless - he has NO IDEA that he is being kenneled for licking or being stubborn. A time out is only effective when you need to calm your dog - its basically meaningless (and frustrating for Mister) the way you are using it... its no wonder he's offering attention seeking behaviour - especially if these time outs turn into 15, 20 and 25 minutes etc... Also, you should remember that licking is an appeasement gesture for dogs - so again Mister is doing the right thing for a dog. Its our job to teach him what's right in the human world and kenneling him away isn't it (because the first thing on his brain when he gets out is 1. I love you and missed you so I better show you and 2. I never want to be parted from you again (so really what else would any dog do but kiss you to death???).
You need to reward Mister whenever he isn't licking and/or give him an alternative to lick (for instance, teaching him to lick your hand or a target instead) and/or teach an incompatible behaviour (if Mister is in a stay or heel or is carrying something in his mouth he CANNOT lick, so those are all options).

want4rain
September 11th, 2007, 12:16 PM
How old is Mister? And how much physical and mental stimulation does he get each day?? Since he's a labX, you've pretty much got an extra social dog with boundless energy - one who will likely turn 5 or 6 before leaving the "puppy stage"...:D So with that said, more stimulation is always helpful (if not necessary). Have you taken OB courses?

we are taking OB training now although we arent sure if our trainer is working out for Mister (although we all have become great friends!).

as for his mental and physical stimulation, he is gettign all he can get. im a mother who has been putting the pets before the kids and hubby because 'they will understand why'.

a typical morning goes as thus-

Chris gets up, showers, dresses and then makes coffee. Mister gets let out after all of that. he goes outside to check out his property, sniff the coon poo, squirrel poo and bird poo and get a drink.
Mister comes in before Cailyn goes to school so he can say bye to everyone leaving for the day and then hangs out in the kitchen until Jeffrey is done with breakfast. (Jeffrey TRYING to feed him his food is just too much temptation!! :laughing:) he usually gets his kong or leg bone with somethign in it.
he comes in the living room with us to hang out until Jeffrey goes to bed.
when Jeffrey goes to bed he gets a 4lb chicken out in the side yard to munch on. if its hot i give him a frozen one. he gnaws on that for a good 30 to 45 minutes, then he buries it somewhere out there, rolls around to 'clean up' in the dirt, lays his head in his water bowl for a bit.
at that point its been probably a good hour to hour and a half since i GAVE him his food... so i go FIND the chicken (boy if he isnt getting clever), bag it and toss it back in the fridge for tomorrow. we throw his ball around for a bit. some days anyway. others its just too hot to do stuff like that.
then he comes inside and takes a nap. i kennel him for that, watch for him to get up so he isnt just lounging in his kennel.
then its time to go get Cailyn from school. soemtimes he rides with me, soemtimes he doesnt. it depends on iof im early or not. we have a rather elaborate ritual to get him IN the car. lots of sitting and staying and stuff. boy let me tell you, getting a dog and a baby in the car is a real handful!!
when Cailyn comes home, Jeffrey eats a late lunch, Mister hangs out in the kitchen and Cailyn does her homework. im usually in the kitchen with Mister or feeding Jeffrey.
he is back in the living room with us or outside. his choice really.
when Chris comes home, he starts dinner, Mister chooses to hang out with us in the kitchen, right before we eat i take him outside to fetch a bit more. 15 to 30 minutes. depends on whats for dinner.
Mister is kenneled for dinner.
he gets our veggie leftover. some starches if i feel like it. we really try to stick to the raw diet though.
after dinner everyone gets together in the living room for funniest home vidoes. Mister usually chills back. on good days anyway.
kids go to bed, Mister chills back with Chris and i. right before bed, probably 2x a week Mister gets icecream with Chris and i.
goes potty before bed and then zonks out for the night.

through out all of that we have him working for all of his pets and plays but theres quite a bit of it. bottom line is though, we dont ahve any more to give. i know some of you who say that there is never too much for your companions but its effecting the kids.

Dogs do not generalize well... they need rules in black and white... If they are grey, they'll offer whatever behaviour is most rewardable in their mind (whether its good or bad in ours). So even if he is being rewarded for nudging someone less than 10% of the time, its still worth it for most dogs.... Not to mention that just looking at Mister may be rewarding enough for him to keep doing it (with or without petting).

i think you are really on to somethign there with the looking part.

To combat this, I would invest in some interactive toys and/or give RMB's so that he is kept busy. I would also start doing some training - like teaching "settle" or "enough" (so you always have what I like to call "an off button" - where the dog, regardless of what he wants will go lay down and chill for however long is expected - HOWEVER, its only fair to use something like this if the dog is properly exercised (mentally/physically) AND is rewarded for it randomly (given a kong sometimes or other times just feed a few treats or praised or gets a special toy to chew on etc...).

unfortunately he has plenty of things to do on his own. he just doesnt want to do stuff on his own, he wants someome to do with WITH him.

Lastly if Mister is rarely/never rewarded for NOT nudging you, you need to start rewarding whenever he is quiet or giving you space. Dogs do what works for them, so you need to make it rewarding for Mister to NOT ask for petting. However, this only works within reason - you still need to physically touch him, just on your terms!

i dont knwo what that means. do i reward him for sitting arcoss the room and not nudging my hand? everyone says to reward them for a non action. i dont know how to do that. when he walks past Jeffrey and DOESNT lick him??? it doesnt happen. if i reward him every time he is doing soemthign perfectly right, how does that teach him anything?


That is a handler error, not a dog one... It's likely that Mister thinks he's doing right by waiting 3 times before complying. And physically forcing the dog into position (no matter how gently and with or without a scowly face) is teaching him to wait for you to make him do the right thing. Which you obviously don't want.

how do other people train alpha dogs with children in the house? im beginning to think its impossible.

I also think its possible Mister doesn't truly understand what "down" means. For a dog to understand a command 100% he needs to be able to do all 3 D's (duration, distance, distracion) - so if you knowhe won't down at the dog park or for 5 minutes or 20 ft away from you (seperately or all at once), then the command has not been fully trained...

i dont think down is as simple to him as that. its not just the action of being down. its being down near us. if i were 20ft away and said down, he would run to me and lay down. im sure there are also many other criteria in his head that goes along with the down motion next to us. if i were dog psychic i would know what they are. in that situation, i think he wanted the upper hand. he wanted Chris to tell it to him again or he knows he gets more attention than if he were to do it. he isnt as motivated by praise as some dogs. nor by food because he is so happy with what we feed him. it would be like giving kids asparagus for a treat when they eat icecream for dinner.

This bothers me... First of all, does this mean he doesn't have water indoors?
Secondly, you cannot teach him to ring a bell to go outside and then NOT him out when he does ring it. And you especially cannot ignore a request to go outside if that is his only source of water. If you are going to ignore him, then take the bell away because its confusing and unfair for Mister to do what's right and then be ignored!

no, he doesnt have water in doors. we have a 17 month old child in the house.

You have to understand that words mean nothing to dogs unless we teach them... And "NO" is a pretty bland word to use because it really doesn't tell the dog what we want/expect, its just a way to stop them from doing something AT THAT moment (they don't understand that we NEVER want them to do it again). You also need to realize that dogs live in the moment - kenneling Mister for 5 minutes is pointless - he has NO IDEA that he is being kenneled for licking or being stubborn. A time out is only effective when you need to calm your dog - its basically meaningless (and frustrating for Mister) the way you are using it... its no wonder he's offering attention seeking behaviour - especially if these time outs turn into 15, 20 and 25 minutes etc... Also, you should remember that licking is an appeasement gesture for dogs - so again Mister is doing the right thing for a dog. Its our job to teach him what's right in the human world and kenneling him away isn't it (because the first thing on his brain when he gets out is 1. I love you and missed you so I better show you and 2. I never want to be parted from you again (so really what else would any dog do but kiss you to death???).
You need to reward Mister whenever he isn't licking and/or give him an alternative to lick (for instance, teaching him to lick your hand or a target instead) and/or teach an incompatible behaviour (if Mister is in a stay or heel or is carrying something in his mouth he CANNOT lick, so those are all options).

if every time he made this one action a subordinate in the pack made a disapproving motion, he would ignore it correct? because he is the alpha. if the alpha made a disapproving motion, the action would cease. in a pack, there is no 200 thousand word dictionary. they make happy sounds and motions, disapproving sounds and motions and then a handful of in betweens such as 'ok, its your turn' gestures. we have been trying to get a reaction or soem understanding out of Mister using these different training methods and its not working. im not even sure if its a alpha mentality with him if not more of a primal one and im just not speaking HIS language. expecting him to behave like other dogs in a humans house isnt working. so many things we do without commands is working and many many of the commands are not. i cant keep standing on my head, wiggling my toes and laughing to train my dog. for some strange reason, stupid human tricks just isnt making an impact.

i dont mean to sound like i dont appreciate advice and help but we keep doing more and playing more and training more and its only confusing him more. i can look at him and see he is trying, he isnt stupid and he loves us but what we are doing is not communicating to him. i have read and re read a million training sites, had a lady come to the house to help us and are currently in training classes.

is there somethign more instinctual we can do? less command based?? is this a mental disorder he has?

sorry its taken me so long to get back to this. yesterday i posted once, set this thing down and took a nice long nap. ive had a head cold for 2 or 3 days now and its just got me fuzzy in the head.

-ashley

want4rain
September 11th, 2007, 12:42 PM
.

Then should you not be interrupting him with a command (ie. sit/stay, lie down) before he even gets near you and has a chance to ask for attention?

is this to make him forget he wanted to do it? and someday he will forget he ever wanted to??:confused:


This made me howl ~ specially since Ceili does the same thing to both men and women but only in elevators where there isn't alot of room to maneuver. :eek:

Again it's the interrupting his thought before it becomes an action. If he hasn't mastered the sit without adding a nuts check (:laughing: ~ sorry), then certainly practice it at home where he won't be distracted but in the real life meet n' greets maybe a lie down is more appropriate for a moment or two so that he can regain his focus on you and your commands rather than his errrrrrmmm ... excitement ~ and after he is focussed on you (in the same way he would be if he was at heel) then move him into a sit.

its kinda funny how he doesnt do it with women LOL! poor guys. :D i laugh a bit too... but not when he can see it!!!


Chris is taking the right track here but C.O.N.S.I.S.T.E.N.C.Y. is needed.


yeah, i was just a little miffed that the sneakey little fart started doing it and it took me a few days to catch on... or even that I had to catch on at all, Chris should have gotten that one for as often as his dad lectures him about repeating himself LOL!!

Just one thought. Sometimes "tons of loving and praise" can backfire on you if it is given too exuberantly, too often ~ the dog can become immune to it. You might want to keep a mental ticker count going to see if you are overdoing it and whether Mister is showing signs of "So what?".
[/QUOTE]

:shrug: i dont know what the deal is... i dont know how to find that balance. i thought a dog should adjust. it feels like we are doing a bulk of the adjusting and Mister still manages to boss us around without even meaning to. you could build a cultish religion out of the different 'stupid human tricks' we do with him.

-ashley

want4rain
September 11th, 2007, 12:44 PM
We call the "nut check" the "BEANS" command, we joke that we taugh Dazy "BEANS"...she does this to one certain person/guy only so we don't have it was bad as you. Now when that person comes over, we get her to sit or down, then he approches covering his BEANS of course.

hahahaha i got a super laugh about that!! BEANS!! has been a joke for me and a few friends for years now. being the ditsy blond i am... one of our co workers back when we waited tables, made some comment about eating some beans, i exclaimed that it was great she was finally eating somethign good for her body!! *coughs* beans is another word for drugs down this way. :frustrated: one time i really didnt mind looking like an idiot!!

-ashley

want4rain
September 11th, 2007, 12:45 PM
Lissa!! poo, sorry, Mister is 10 months old... and a good description is in my signature... lengthy!! sorry!!

-ashley