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Confused about premium dog food...

linden79
August 6th, 2007, 04:15 PM
So, I feel that I have done a lot of research and whatnot about what to feed my dog. He's a large lab/dane cross. Anyways, I've always been under the assumption that I should be feeding him premium food... which I always have. He's been on Wellness and Fromm's mostly (currently on Fromm's).

Anyways, we went to the vet (whom I trust) this past week and we were discussing dog foods. He told me that I don't need to feed my dog these "designer dog food brands" and that I should be feeding him Hill's Science Diet. I was taken aback by this a little because I've always felt that it is a less superior product to the premium foods. I was contemplating switching him, but then I started to wonder what my vet's motives might have been (this is the cynic in me). I thought that since he sells Medicall (which is a Hill's product) maybe he's got ulterior motives. What do you think? I was planning on switching him to Orijen because I've heard very good things about it (Canadian made with no grain products and a high protein/vegetable ratio).

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Frenchy
August 6th, 2007, 04:20 PM
Like I just posted on another thread , vets will push on you the food that THEY are selling. I know some people here are not too crazy with Fromm , but if it was available near my place , I would certainly buy this brand. You can also look at Canidae , my dogs are on it now after having poop problems and they really like it. And as long as I don't see corn in the ingredients, I like it too. (not for me , for the dogs :p )

linden79
August 6th, 2007, 04:39 PM
Oh, sorry.. I guess I should have checked other threads before I posted my question. Oops!

Anyways, thanks for the response. That's what I thought! Something just didn't feel right about why he was so adamant about that food. I figured I'd ask the experts on here. Hehehe. So thanks!

I haven't heard of the food you've mentioned. My vet told me that he's heard from various people about their dogs having more frequent diarrhea while on Fromm's. I think I will try this Orijen brand and maybe check out the one that you suggest as well!

Thanks!

erykah1310
August 6th, 2007, 04:48 PM
I have had 50 50 results with Orijen, for the 2 dogs it works wonders for, I love it and highly reccomend it.
For the other 2 that just dont tolerate something in it. I am discouraged that such a good food doesnt work for them.
All I know is there is no way in gods green earth I would feed hills or other vet recommended foods.
Stand firm on your decision on what you feed your dog, its not your vets dog.
Vets really dont have alot of training in feeding, and why would they right?

linden79
August 6th, 2007, 04:57 PM
Well, his argument was this: Dogs don't need to eat blueberries. Why do these designer brands add ingredients like that? To appeal to the person buying the food. Hill's is a basic, good food for them. Plus Hill's puts money back into the veterinary industry. If he (my dog) were to have a neurological issue, he could call Hill's and have a neurologist on the phone immediately to help with the case.

To me, it felt like a sales pitch. Hence why I didn't trust it. I'm going to try Orijen and see how he reacts to it. Maybe it'll help his shedding problem. Who knows! :)

Goldens4Ever
August 6th, 2007, 08:07 PM
In addition to your vet's "sales pitch," I think a lot of it has to do with his/her lack of knowledge & understanding of nutrition. Traditional vets are 'educated' with respect to the lines of food they are introduced to in school, so they have no reason to research lines of holistic foods. They just don't know about the benefits of other types of diets. :sad:

mummummum
August 6th, 2007, 08:34 PM
I've been very please with Orijen. But lets look at Hill's for a moment.

http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/products/product_details.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=8455244417 67452&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302024937&bmUID=1186449782806&bmLocale=en_CA

Ingredients in the Advanced Protection fomula (their " wellness " style kibble)

Ingredients
Ground Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Meal, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Flaxseed, Chicken Liver Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Dried Carrots, Dried Spinach, Dried Grape Pomace, Dried Tomato Pomace, Dried Citrus Pulp, Soybean Oil, Oat Fiber, Iodized Salt, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate(source of Vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid Vitamin D3 Supplement), Potassium Chloride, Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Alpha-Lipoic Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract. Maybe you would like to ask your Vet how many dogs would instinctively choose corn, soybean, flaxseed carrots etc. Then ask your Vet about the digestibility and bio-availability of nutrient in by-product mean ( compared to meat meal and meat ) . I would also want to know the Vet's take on the purpose of tomato pomace and iodized salt . See where I'm going with this ?

Now let's look at the ingredients of Orijen http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/orijen/

Fresh salmon (includes chinook. coho and sockeye species), salmon meal, russet potato, herring meal, fresh lake whitefish, sweet potato, fresh lake trout, fresh Northern walleye, freshwater cod, fresh herring, sunflower oil, salmon oil (preserved with mixed tocopherals, a natural source of vitamin E), sun-cured alfalfa, dried sea vegetables (brown kelp, Irish moss, dulse and bladder wrack), leeks, psyllium, crab shell, rosemary, lecithin, apples, black currants..

TONIC HERBS AND BOTANICALS
Chicory root (FOS), licorice root, fennel seed, zea mays, peppermint leaf, marigold flowers, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, rosehips.

ORGANIC MINERALS
Iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate.

PROBIOTIC MICROORGANISMS
Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Enterococcus faecium fermentation product..

PREMIUM VITAMINS
Mixed tocopherols (source of vitamin E), choline chloride, vitamin A, vitamin D3, niacin, riboflavin, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin B12, folic acid, biotin, pyridoxine (source of vitamin B6).

Out of the first 10 ingredients 8 out of 10 are meat or meat meal. How can you argue against that as being more nutritionally sound ?

linden79
August 6th, 2007, 09:55 PM
Wow... in comparing the two products, I'd say it's pretty evident which one is better quality! I'm definitely going to be switching him to that soon. Thanks for going to the work to get the ingredient lists for both products. :)

Regarding the vet's lack of education on the holistic products, I do agree with that. However, to take that one step further, if you were a vet and your job was to care for, treat and offer advice on health matters, wouldn't you want to be up to date on foods/products out there that might be beneficial to our furry friends?! Just a question. ;)

growler~GateKeeper
August 6th, 2007, 10:02 PM
Several years ago I took a college course & got my degree as a Vet Office Assistant (however there were no jobs available @ the time - too many students coming out of that course & ones like it :frustrated:), we were taught about various diets however all were veterinary prescription foods. So even @ the front desk level of the vets that is still being taught as what's best.

Mia101
August 18th, 2007, 06:07 PM
Science Diet is horrible. A glance at the ingredients tells you that. It's like Dog Chow with verrrrryyyyyyy expensive supplements. A much better quality food can be had for less money.

I do not really like that food listed above with Salmon and Salmon meal as the main ingredients. It is the worst protein source when compared to chicken, turkey, lamb, beef, or even tuna or herring or cat fish. Plus it has a mercury issue.

Unless your dog cannot tolerate any of the meats, I think Salmon is a very poor choice.

PS flaxseed is good for them, but of course soy and the other stuff in Hills is not.

rainbow
August 19th, 2007, 01:49 PM
I do not really like that food listed above with Salmon and Salmon meal as the main ingredients. It is the worst protein source when compared to chicken, turkey, lamb, beef, or even tuna or herring or cat fish. Plus it has a mercury issue.

Unless your dog cannot tolerate any of the meats, I think Salmon is a very poor choice.

PS flaxseed is good for them, but of course soy and the other stuff in Hills is not.


Where did you get that information from???? :confused:

Mia101
August 19th, 2007, 05:33 PM
Where did you get that information from???? :confused:

salmon (1 stars) found in 6% of pet food products analyzed
A source of protein and fatty acids which can add mercury to the diet.

salmon broth (2 stars) found in 2% of pet food products analyzed
Better than plain water for processing can food but can contain mercury.

salmon meal (1 stars) found in 5% of pet food products analyzed
Concentrated source of protein and a few fatty acids (oil has been pressed out) but can add mercury to the diet.

salmon oil (2 stars) found in 2% of pet food products analyzed
May contain higher levels of mercury than other fish oils.

http://www.newstarget.com/Report_pet_food_ingredients_7.html

rainbow
August 19th, 2007, 05:55 PM
Salmon has one of the lowest amounts of mercury in ALL fish. Perhaps they got their info for salmon and tuna mixed up. :rolleyes:

rainbow
August 19th, 2007, 06:06 PM
Here's a comparison chart for you:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/sea-mehg.html

rainbow
August 19th, 2007, 06:12 PM
It's nice to see that the website you listed (http://www.newstarget.com/Report_pet_food_ingredients_7.html) posted this disclaimer:

This site is part of the NewsTarget Network 2004,2005 All Rights Reserved. Privacy | Terms All content posted on this site is commentary or opinion and is protected under Free Speech. Truth Publishing International, LTD. has full ownership of and takes sole responsibility for all content. Truth Publishing sells no health or nutritional products and earns no money from health product manufacturers or promoters. The information on this site is provided for educational and entertainment purposes only. It is not intended as a substitute for professional advice of any kind. Truth Publishing assumes no responsibility for the use or misuse of this material. Your use of this website indicates your agreement to these terms and those published here. All trademarks, registered trademarks and servicemarks mentioned on this site are the property of their respective owners.


They also said this:

Additional notes

The comments on pet food ingredients listed here are the opinion of Dr. Lisa Newman and are based on over 20 years of clinical experience in nutritional therapies for pets. Dr. Newman's line of pet products includes premium holistic food, herbal supplements, and nutritional supplements. Dr. Newman's website is www.Azmira.com and her products are carried in natural health stores and can be ordered directly from her website. User success stories about pet health recovery using Azmira products can be viewed at http://www.azmira.com/AzmiraStories.htm

Both Mike Adams and NewsTarget fully endorse Dr. Newman's line of holistic pet products. No money exchanged hands in the creation of this report. Both Dr. Newman and Mike Adams volunteered their time and expertise to create and share this information with the public. Both believe that animals deserve superior nutrition and that just as with humans, nearly all diseases emerging in pets today can be easily and effectively prevented through nutritional therapies that include superior food and nutritional supplements (along with plenty of exercise, fresh water and sunshine for your pets!).

Please support Dr. Lisa Newman's ongoing nutritional education efforts by considering her line of pet food products at www.Azmira.com

Please also consider supporting the Consumer Wellness Center with a donation at:
http://www.consumerwellness.org/Sponsorship.html

rainbow
August 19th, 2007, 06:24 PM
Here's what the author of the information you posted is selling:

http://www.azmira.com/ProductFoods.htm


I only scanned the ingredients quickly but four that I don't like to see in pet food are:

1. whole ground grain sorghum
2. menhaden fish meal
3. menadione sodium bisulfite complex
4. ground yellow corn

Mia101
August 19th, 2007, 08:38 PM
Good to know, thank you. So far, the main things I've researched have agreed with that ingredient list, but apparently Salmon is an important exception. I still find it to be a good resource, and will use it until I find another that not only describes all the ingredients, but 'rates' them somehow.
:thumbs up

rainbow
August 20th, 2007, 01:35 PM
The reason I don't like the website you have been basing your information on is because the owner of the website fully endorses the Azmira line of pet food and therefore they only say what's good based on the ingredients in that food. :rolleyes:

I prefer to refer to www.dogfoodproject.com and www.dogaware.com for information. :pawprint:

Lukka'sma
August 20th, 2007, 01:49 PM
Just adding my plug for Orijen. Love how Lukka loves it

Mia101
August 20th, 2007, 03:09 PM
The reason I don't like the website you have been basing your information on is because the owner of the website fully endorses the Azmira line of pet food and therefore they only say what's good based on the ingredients in that food. :rolleyes:

I prefer to refer to www.dogfoodproject.com and www.dogaware.com for information. :pawprint:


I got that from your first 4 posts about it.

If you look at all of it, and compare to other ratings, you will see that the overwhelming majority (close to 100%) of items agree with other experts.

There is never going to be a single perfect one, the ones you use may have a couple that are not right for some other reason, or neither may be right or wrong, just difference of opinion.

As I stated, I like this one because it lists just about every ingredient found in dog and cat food, and explains why she thinks it's good or bad. The other sites do not.

Mia101
August 20th, 2007, 03:16 PM
Back closer to topic, while Salmon might not be as bad as that particular source claims, is it really the best meat source for dogs? I still have the impression that it is good as a sub for sensitive tummies, or dogs with allergies, but that it's not the preferred meat for a normal, healthy dog.

I'm choosing a new dog food this week, and want to find out what meats are preferred over others.

Some say beef is not good (makes sense, as it's not good for humans to eat every day either). Some say Lamb isn't (though I don't know why).

Does anyone have any thoughts or a link? Thanks.