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When the Only Vet is an Idiot

bethaliz
August 1st, 2007, 02:06 PM
Yesterday morning Cuddles was restless, her temp droped etc. We figured she would have the pup(pups, we thought there was two) sometime during the day. She would hide, get restless, pace, dig, pant and then go out for a pee and/or a poop come back in and sleep as thou nothing was happening. She kind went through this on and off through the day. We had the breeder come over and sit with us for a while, because we figured she should have them soon. The breeder was over for 3 hours in the evening and nothing. She checked cuddles and said both her and the pups were fine it was just taking a bit long and to call her the minute she actually looked like she was doing anything. If she didn't by morning we'd go to the vet.

Well I stayed up with cuddles all night around 2:50am I dozed off for about 10mins (I'm sorry I know I"m weak), when I opened my eyes she was having contractions. I called the breeder and she came over. after about an hour and a half of hard contractions nothing was happening, you couldn't even see a puppy in the birth canal. Cuddles was moaning and tired, so we gave her another 30mins while we called the emergancy vet and took her in. The poor thing rode on my lap to the vet, straining.

When we got there they saw us right away took her temp etc. The vet came and examined her, poor baby was squealing as he's poking at her. He said their was a head engaged. The breeder said she wanted to get her a C-Section, because she (the dog) was tired and stressed (the dog was drooling a lot) and she had been straining for a long time. The vet wasted time trying to get her to do an x-ray and a shot and try to deliver the pup diagnositcally. The breeder was agrivated. Cuddles was too tired to try any longer and she did not want to put her at risk. Then the vet (at the emergancy clinic) said that it was almost time for them to close and they don't like to do surgery when their almost ready to close because everyone is coming in to pick up or transfer their pets. He again suggested that they do an x-ray and a shot and try to manage her diagnotically until our regular vet opens and can preform the section. He said their should be no risk to the mother, but he could not say if the pup would make it. My breeder, clearly upset, told him that if she was going to pay too much for an emergancy section then she wanted to at least try to get a live pup. What kinda of idiot wants to make the poor dog go another 4 or 5 hours in labour when she's already been in labour for over 3?!?!?! She pointed out that she's been breeding for over 30 years and has never lost a bitch because she knows when the dog has had enough. In the end we got him to do the section, although we had to wait until the could call in another vet tech to cover the desk. 5 1/2 hours in hard labor before they even gave her an IV...grr...it's days like this you wish we had more than one emergancy vet in the area. Cuddles had a baby boy, this one pup took up half her womb!!! He was very big and long. Neither my breeder nor the vet have ever seen a pup that big. NO wonder she was having trouble.

Well after all that they would not let her come home, which the generally do right after a section. The ER Vet said he they were closing and wanted her observed for another hour before she went home, but she was doing well, he just wanted to be sure she could stand on her feet. So he transfered her to My breeders vet. We took her and the pup there. The vet did an exam...........My breeder is LIVID....as am I. Her temperature is low, her colour isn't good, she bleeding and there is concern that it might fill her uterus and she's not coming around very well from the aneistetic. She has to stay there at least until 4pm and may have to be re-opened for an emergancy spay if the bleeding doesn't stop. The pup has gone home to the breeders (so I can have a nap) and has to be fed every 2 hours by hand. My breeders vet, thinks she's just over tired and it didn't help that she spent 2 1/2 hours in hard labour longer than she should have. Now we wait until 4 to find out how she's doing.

I know these things happen, even with the most throughly planned litter with all the right tests and to the best of breeders. It's just infurriating when the vet doesn't want to help and it's the only vet avalible. What do you do when your only option isn't helpful?

Anyway, my aunt and sister are going to take the dogs from my house for a couple days so she can rest in peace and quite when she gets home.

I know that these

badger
August 1st, 2007, 05:41 PM
What a terrible ordeal, you must be feeling a bit shattered. How are mum and baby doing now?

This story would make a good sticky for would-be breeders.

bethaliz
August 1st, 2007, 07:50 PM
Mum and pup are doing well. Everyone's home. She's still a little out of it tho. Her regular vet (where she stayed for most of the day) was a lot more forth coming. We definately feel a lot better now, and she seems to be perking up now that she's home.

It's just horrid that an already upsetting situation had to be aggrivated by someone who was too lazy to help. If you don't want to help in an emergancy, then don't work at the emergnacy clinic.

mummummum
August 1st, 2007, 08:15 PM
I guess your bitch had neither a Vet check nor an ultrasound at any time during her gestation prior to giving birth so as to determine the number of puppies and her ability to give birth safely. perhaps that is something for the "breeder" to consider in the future.

Frenchy
August 1st, 2007, 09:06 PM
So you guys are blaming the vet ??? This vet is not the one who got this dog pregnant ! You and the breeder are. This poor mom is lucky to still be alive. All of this for what ? To get $500-$600 for the pup ?

Sorry but you're not going to get ANY sympathy from me !

And it might be a good idea to get this dog spayed now , but I guess making some more $$$ with her is more interesting that her wellbeing.

t.pettet
August 1st, 2007, 09:50 PM
And you're calling the vet an idiot?

bethaliz
August 1st, 2007, 09:56 PM
No she was did not have an altrasound or x-ray, she was checked and cleared for breeding, health checked etc before breeding began. She did get a vet check and we had thought their was two.

Obviously are concern is more for Cuddles than anything else. Really.....people. Our anger is not that it's the "vet's fault", but rather his lack of wanting to do anything. No it's not his fault she was pregnant of in labour, but it IS his fault that she spent and etra 2 1/2 hours in labour because he wanted someone else to do the section so he could leave on time.

For those that think everyone who breeders is irresponsible and a byb and just in it for the money. Consider this, a responsible breeder rarely, if ever, makes money from breeding. Consider the cost to show both the sire and dam, the health testing of both animals, pre and post natal care of the pup and bitch.

Let me give you some figures. My breeder has been breeding and showing Shih Tzu in Canada for over 30 years and has truely made some great contributions to her breed. Assuming that she has two litters every year that's at least 60 litters a year. She has NEVER lost a bitch. She has had less than 10 c-sections. Of all the dogs/puppies shes sold/placed she's had 2 come back and to her knowledge none have ended up in rescue, she has her name down so any Shih Tzu that ends up lost or homeless in the area is refered to her and none of her dogs have ever come back to her this way as she requires her puppy owners to sign a contract stating that if they can not keep the dog it is returned to her. That's a responsible breeder with a really good tract reccord. She is avidly involved in local resuces, the CKC, out local kennel club and so much more.

So don't get bent out of shape, not everyone who breeds a byb. Our concern is the dog, not the money. She's put out over $2000 today and if she sells the pups she wont even get half back. As for breeding her in the future I don't know what will happen, that's her choice. What I can tell you is that if she does repeat the breeding Cuddles would get a planned section. She wouldn't let her go through all this again. But it's too early to say what will happen, as it stands now we are just working on getting her better.

The point of the thred is that the VET should not have tried to put off giving her the section. His attitdue that this poor dog should keep trying to have this pup because he didn't want to do surgery so close to closing time. Think about it, what if this wasn't a whelping. What if your dog's eye popped out and the vet didnt want to stay to put it back in?!?! That's the frustration. That is was acceptable to him to make her try birthing that pup for another several hours, and possibly lose the pup, because he didn't want to leave work late.

bethaliz
August 1st, 2007, 09:58 PM
Leaving early is never more important than going home early..........so yes I think he was an idiot.

mummummum
August 1st, 2007, 10:15 PM
Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

But... and I'm not being mean-spirited here Bethaliz, I care too much for all dogs to do that ~ I really do want you to give this some serious thought and take it to heart ... based on this thread and you're other one ~ http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=43076 ~ no one here seems to think you are doing a "good thing", that anything in this pregnancy and birthing has gone correctly or well or with any kind of professional expertise and...people seem to think that your "breeder" is more like a back-yard-breeder than a professional breeder and certainly less of a mentor than anyone could want or need.

:2cents: ~ take it as you will ~ but, please do give it some careful thought over time.

t.pettet
August 1st, 2007, 10:25 PM
I don't comprehend how anyone with a conscience can voluntarily or involuntarily breed their dogs and produce puppies when there are so many dogs (pure and mutts) being euthanized daily in shelters. Rescue orgs., foster homes and pounds are filled to capacity. There are not enough homes for the country's dogs so why are people still producing more? If it is not for profit as you commented and your mentor is not engaged in breeding to improve the breed standard then why? Why would you and your mentor put Cuddles through that nightmare?

bethaliz
August 2nd, 2007, 07:33 AM
Never mind

LavenderRott
August 2nd, 2007, 09:54 AM
I don't know of a single ethical breeder that doesn't get at least an ultrasound done on an expecting bitch - and I know a LOT of ETHICAL breeders. Had this basic minimum been done then you would have known well in advance that this delivery was going to be difficult at best and you could have scheduled a c-section BEFORE this poor dog went through any of this pain. And yes, the vet is not the best.

This is the second abnormal litter for this bitch. I certainly hope that her breeding days are over. I have a hard time with the fact that the "breeder" went ahead and bred a bitch who's first litter was deformed because of a possible ingested toxin.

LittleMomma
August 2nd, 2007, 07:09 PM
I don't comprehend how anyone with a conscience can voluntarily or involuntarily breed their dogs and produce puppies when there are so many dogs (pure and mutts) being euthanized daily in shelters. Rescue orgs., foster homes and pounds are filled to capacity. There are not enough homes for the country's dogs so why are people still producing more? If it is not for profit as you commented and your mentor is not engaged in breeding to improve the breed standard then why? Why would you and your mentor put Cuddles through that nightmare?

THIS. So many in shelters.

mummummum
August 2nd, 2007, 07:14 PM
Never mind

I'm sorry you feel that way. I had hoped that as person who says she loves dogs, you would take what's been said to heart.

Apparently, I'm wrong. :sad:

mona_b
August 2nd, 2007, 09:05 PM
Just so I don't repeat myself....:p

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=43159


Sooooo true Sandi.

And actually this is a different dog of the breeders.The first time bethaliz posted about an over due shih was with her dog Roxie.


I would really like to know the ages of these dogs.

jawert1
August 2nd, 2007, 11:28 PM
I'm sorry Cuddles had an awful delivery Bethaliz, but what Lavender, Mum and Mona have stated is the truth. The bare minimum has been done for Cuddles - no ultrasound to determine how many pups? Come on, if you were pregnant, you'd probably wish to know if you were having twins or not, and not during an emergency C-section. For the sake of Cuddles, Roxie and however many other dogs you've got in cycle for being bred or have been bred, stop now. Your "mentor" is unskilled enough to be teaching YOU horrifically bad habits, all in the name of profit, and I think you're intelligent enough to understand that.

mummummum
August 3rd, 2007, 12:40 AM
Wise words all of you. Sadly I think they are lost on Bethaliz.

SuprNtrlyAdictd
August 3rd, 2007, 02:16 AM
It's interesting how this "breeder" seems to have a degree in veterinarian medicine and is telling the vet what to do after knowing all about breeding for 30 years. An actual breeder would have taken the proper steps in Cuddle's pregnancy. I may need to repeat those steps seeing how everyone but this "breeder" seems to know.
"1. Abdominal radiographs or x-rays. The skeleton of the puppy is visible on an X-ray after 45 days of pregnancy. They will also show other abnormalities, such as organ enlargement or abnormal fluid accumulation, are present.
2. Abdominal ultrasound can be used to diagnose pregnancy after 21 to 24 days post breeding. This is a safe and excellent way to diagnose pregnancy and verify the health of the puppies. Ultrasound can also be used to estimate litter size.
3.Your veterinarian may recommend other diagnostic tests (not typically done with a normal pregnancy) on a case-by-case basis. Tests may include:
*Blood work *Urinalysis *Etc..
4. Have your veterinarian recheck your dog one week before the due date. The doctor may then palpate for puppies and perform a pelvic exam to establish a rough estimate of pelvic canal size vs. puppy size to try to anticipate problems that might occur during whelping"

"Obviously are concern is more for Cuddles than anything else. Really.....people. Our anger is not that it's the "vet's fault", but rather his lack of wanting to do anything. No it's not his fault she was pregnant of in labour, but it IS his fault that she spent and etra 2 1/2 hours in labour because he wanted someone else to do the section so he could leave on time."
I also find it interesting that your concerned about Cuddles and how hard it was for her to go throught this pregnancy, yet you also say she may have to do it all over again depending on the "Breeders" decision. I feel bad for Cuddles. She shouldn't be breed again knowing she has complications. :sad:

I hope that you do some more research online from dependable websites on breeding. They will be much more informative than your "mentor." You might also try talking to an actual veterinarian.

t.pettet
August 3rd, 2007, 09:27 PM
With your passion and love for animals Bethaliz you would be a wonderful asset to the foster, rescue, pro spay/neuter and animal rights movement. We in rescue feel a great deal of personal satisfaction everytime one of our fosters is taken from a deplorable (puppy mills, byb or negligent owners) environment and placed in a loving, caring responsible home.

Frenchy
August 3rd, 2007, 09:41 PM
:offtopic:

t.pettet, I have a question for you, I'll pm you.

mummummum
August 3rd, 2007, 09:56 PM
With your passion and love for animals Bethaliz you would be a wonderful asset to the foster, rescue, pro spay/neuter and animal rights movement. We in rescue feel a great deal of personal satisfaction everytime one of our fosters is taken from a deplorable (puppy mills, byb or negligent owners) environment and placed in a loving, caring responsible home.

...you ARE kidding right ?....

okay, I get it now...you are :wall: