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Overdue Shih Tzu....?

bethaliz
July 30th, 2007, 04:58 PM
I just wanted to know what's "over due" Cuddles is at 65, from her first breeding. Her temp went a little low the other day, but came right back up. No spike. She's got milk, lots and lots of milk. She just keeps hanging in there. Now she could have taken late, I guess. I'm not particularly worried at the moment, but my grandfather (whom I live with to help care for) has been hospitalized last night and it looks like he'll be in for a few days. I'd like to go up etc, but I can't risk leaving Cuddles too long in case she goes in labor. Once she's had the pups, as long as someone's at the house theres no problem. But there is no way to contact me at the hospital (no cell phones and all) if I go up and she does go into labour. My grandmother and my aunt (I live with my aunt and my grandparents, to help my aunt care for them) are in England, so I'm his main care giver and really need to go up to find out what they're doing for him etc.

So does any one know How acurate is temp monitoring? I've herad it's quite accurate and will give you at least 12 hours notice, although my breeder/mentor says it's not reliable. When is overdue really over due? She's been playing, eating just like always. She's a little over cuddly and her tummy was a hot bed of activity today ( those pups were having some kinda party! lol!), but other wise you wouldn't even know she's prego, much less "overdue"............Any thoughts?

mummummum
July 30th, 2007, 05:47 PM
Welcome to pets.ca to you and your shih-tzu. We are a very pro-pay & neuter board. Many of us work or volunteer with dog rescues and see the direct results of overpopulation and unwanted animals because of backyard breeders and puppy mills.

As you are obviously not a professional breeder, it would be best if you see a Vet as it sounds like your dog needs medical attention.

Frenchy
July 30th, 2007, 05:58 PM
I think that 65 is overdue !!! Get her to a vet !

erykah1310
July 30th, 2007, 07:43 PM
I am no pro with breeding but if I were in your situation I would definately atleast call the vet and see... Last thing you want is for some life threatening complications arising, especially if you could have done something to prevent it.

happycats
July 30th, 2007, 07:51 PM
I think that 65 is overdue !!! Get her to a vet !

:D That's what I thought! :crazy:

Hunter's_owner
July 30th, 2007, 08:00 PM
Yeah I agree with the others. She needs a vet for sure!!! Things can get very serious, very fast for Mom and pups, so please get her to a vet!

bethaliz
July 31st, 2007, 08:48 AM
Mummummum - I'm not new lol, I just don't come on very often.

No I"m not a professional breeder, I"m well...... I guess you would say, a breeder in training? I want to learn to show and breed and I"ve been mentoring under a local breeder for a couple of years. My entire family has dogs from her. My Aunt and I each have female Shih Tzu from this breeder. We have them on a "co-ownership" or breeding terms. In other words, the breeder has shown, tested etc the dogs. We got them for free (we just have to pay to spay the dog after she's done breeding) the dog gets to live with us and be in a loving home. The breeder still gets to breed the dog. It saves her having a lot of dogs at her house, because when you have too many you can't really give them the time and attention they deserve. The breeder is responsible for all vet care (shots, health check ups, heartworm, rabies day to day stuff). She only places dogs like this in the local area with people she is already friends with and has a relationship with out side of the dog (it makes it easier to ensure the dog is weel cared for). Typically when the bitch goes in season the dog goes to the breeder for a week to be bred and the bitch comes home until day 52 and then she goes back to the breeder to have and raise the pups. This is what happened with Roxie (my dog) for her first litter.

However, as I am mentoring under her, she allowed me to whelp and raise Roxie's last litter. Now it's Cuddles turn and I get to do the same.

The problem is not with the dog. I did talk to the breeder last night. She said that if she took on the second breeding today is her due date, so watch and see. She's not in distress, the pups are active and I"m not getting a bad vibe. She said I could take Cuddles to her house and go up and visit. But Cuddles doesn't really like her house and pees on her husband, so you don't want to distress the dog. She can't come here because she's got someone elses bitch that's ready to whelp too (a breeder up north, I"m not sure why she's delivering the litter.).

Anyway, I'm just trying to balance my grandfather and the dog. If you could have your cell phone on in the hospital I wouldn't think twice. I'd leave my cousin with Cuddles and go to the hospital for a few hours.

badger
July 31st, 2007, 09:16 AM
I think it's the breeder's responsibility to find a solution so you can go to your grandfather, even if it means taking the dog back (shurely she'll be too busy to pee on the breeder's husband). Stuff happens. Everyone in hospital needs an advocate. Nurses these days don't have the time to hold a hand or sit and chat or do those small things that make such a difference to a person's comfort. That's you.

mummummum
July 31st, 2007, 10:12 AM
Bethaliz whether you're new to pets.ca or not isn't really all that relevant is it ? This board, being very pro-spay and neuter, is made up of people who are animal lovers, not breeders or people with backgrounds in veterinary medicine. You are asking for a medical opinion on pregnancy and are obviously not getting the kind of information and support you need from your "mentor" or you wouldn't be here. The kind of medical advice you need is something we cannot give and is something you should see your Vet about.

mona_b
August 2nd, 2007, 08:20 PM
You keep raving about how great this breeder is,but why is it you keep coming on here and asking questions when these dogs get pregnant?Just wondering.

Also,I'm sorry,but I don't know of any responsible breeder who hands over their pregnant Dams to inexperienced people.I have known breeders to leave their pregnant dams with another breeder.But that's only when they have had to leave for a show or there has been an emergency.

When a breeder breeds,the dam is kept with then.Especially when she is ready to drop.They are the Pros in this field.And THEY wan't their Dams in eyes view.Especially in case of an emergency.

You say this breeder gave you your dog for free,but you are on a co-ownership for the breeding?

First let me explaing co-ownership.

When YOU buy a pup for showing,the breeder will put you on a co-ownership contract.This at times means that both the breeder and co-owner split the costs for showing and breeding.The only time the breeder will sign over the dog soley to you is when the dog has passed all health/genetic testing BEFORE breeding age.

Your main focus should be on how to show.If that's what you really want to do.Worry about breeding down the road.Go to the dog shows.Ask questions.

Are any of these dogs of hers titled?

Is this Cuddles first litter?How old is she?

Just a question.But how can this breeder be your mentor?You haven't purchased a pup for showing from her.She isn't helping you out by advising how to show.:shrug:

I'm very curious as to who this breeder is.If she has been showing for 30 years,then I take it you wouldn't mind pming me her kennel name?

mummummum
August 2nd, 2007, 08:46 PM
Just an fyi Mona ~ and thanks for adding your professional opinion ~

we've continued this discussion (for the good one can only hope...) http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=43159

mona_b
August 2nd, 2007, 08:49 PM
Thanks mum.......:thumbs up

bethaliz
August 3rd, 2007, 08:22 AM
You keep raving about how great this breeder is,but why is it you keep coming on here and asking questions when these dogs get pregnant?Just wondering.

I do think my breeder is great. I ask questions, because I like to ask questions. She always answer's my questions, she also encourages me to get as many oppinions as possible, because like she says "she doesn't know everything and she hasn't experienced everything". She's very encouraging, she provided me with tons of books etc. So when I have a question I find what information I can and make an oppinion, then I take it to her. It's not because of her lack of knowledge or willingness to help. I just ask questions, not just online but to everyone involved in dogs. It's amazing the different oppinions that you get. I find it makes me more well rounded.

Also,I'm sorry,but I don't know of any responsible breeder who hands over their pregnant Dams to inexperienced people.I have known breeders to leave their pregnant dams with another breeder.But that's only when they have had to leave for a show or there has been an emergency.

When a breeder breeds,the dam is kept with then.Especially when she is ready to drop.They are the Pros in this field.And THEY wan't their Dams in eyes view.Especially in case of an emergency.

In general she doesn't. However, like I've said I've been mentoring/learning from her, I live around the block and she trusts me a lot more than some of the other breeders in the area, because I ask questions. I've had to go through a lot of steps to get to the point where I can help her care for these dams. Roxie's first litter I got to be there, but she did everything at her house, raise the pups everything. By the time Roxie had her second litter I'd been with her for a while and had delivers a couple litters at her house under her direction and supervision. So Roxie had them here. She supported me and came over frequently to check on us. Everything went great.

With this litter of cuddles, she wanted to be here for the whelp because it was her first litter (but I could raise the litter, We didn't think Cuddles took, so she planned to go to the Shih Tzu National. THis way she wont lose her money or entry and Cuddles will still get good care), so we called her and she came over when Cuddles went into labor. And she's been here everyday for the last 3 days with all of this.

You say this breeder gave you your dog for free,but you are on a co-ownership for the breeding?

First let me explaing co-ownership.

When YOU buy a pup for showing,the breeder will put you on a co-ownership contract.This at times means that both the breeder and co-owner split the costs for showing and breeding.The only time the breeder will sign over the dog soley to you is when the dog has passed all health/genetic testing BEFORE breeding age.

Your main focus should be on how to show.If that's what you really want to do.Worry about breeding down the road.Go to the dog shows.Ask questions.

Thanks for the information. I'm perfectly aware of how a co-ownership works. I use the term "co-ownership" because people understand that word with out my having to discribe my relationship with the breeder all the time. I technically don't own Roxie. She just lives at my house. I don't get anything out of breeding her. Although, We've discussed that the first show dog I want of my own, I want out or Roxie and we will Co-Own that puppy on a proper co-ownership.

Roxie belongs to the breeder lock stock and barrel. When push comes to shove she's fully responsible for her and her bills. When Roxie was a pup I had talked to the breeder about having her. The breeder wanted to show Roxie and said I could have her when she was done showing and breeding her. Which is typical (that she homes her dogs when they are retired). Around the time Roxie finished showing the breeder went through a personal crisis. Most of her breeding stock was fixed and homed early. Show dogs and pregnant dogs went to other breeders. As let me take Roxie early. She wanted to breed her, but she didn't know how things would work out for herself. I said I was willing to keep her intact until the breeder figured out what she wanted to do. Things improved for the breeder, she got her dogs back. Roxie was old enough for breeding and was in good health. Roxie went back to the breeders for a short time, where she was tested etc. The breeder felt bad for Roxie because she could not provide the same level of attention that Roxie was use to. So We agreed that Roxie could live with me and go to her for breeding and whelping etc. Things have evolved from there.

Are any of these dogs of hers titled?

Actually most of her dogs are titled. Her dogs have been top ALL breed and most years she at the very least has a dog in the top 5 Shih Tzu for Canada. If you show ANY breed in Ontario, you probly know of my breeder, but no I"m not going to give out her personal information on the internet to someone I don't know. I wouldn't give my info out, I'm certianly not going to give hers. It's just not safe.


Is this Cuddles first litter?How old is she?

Yes this is Cuddles first litter she's Shes 2 1/2.

Just a question.But how can this breeder be your mentor?You haven't purchased a pup for showing from her.She isn't helping you out by advising how to show.:shrug:

I'm very curious as to who this breeder is.If she has been showing for 30 years,then I take it you wouldn't mind pming me her kennel name?

My own situation is unique. The week I graduated form college my dad died and I was in a severe car accident. I was hospitalized and have PTSD. As part of my therapy I was encouraged to develop hobbies and volunteer. I love dogs and have been interested in learning to show and breed for some time, but had been waiting to finish school and have the money. My breeder is a friend of the family and my Aunt encouraged me to talk to her and see if maybe I could learn from her anyway. My breeder said sure. So started coming over and helping her groom, train and care for her dogs. It was during this time that I got Roxie. Through the last 5 years I've been helping her show her dogs, care for them, train them etc. I"m quite lucky that she trusts me so much with her dogs. And let me assure you, I've had to earn every once of trust and responsiblity. Her dogs love me, I've pointed several of her dogs, I've whelped several litters, this is the second I"m raising on my own.

The plan is, when Roxie has her next litter (which will be her last) I will get a pup out of this litter on a Co-Ownership (but I will not have to "pay" (ie money) for the dog as I"ve been "working" for her. By then I should be finished school (now that I've gone back to finish) and should be able to afford the cost of showing.

I don't come and ask questions because I don't get support or because my breeder doesn't care for her dogs. I ask questions because I like to get different points of view. I rarely if ever post something before I've spoken to my breeder. When I've posted here and I've asked my breeder, I will still ask the other breeders in my area. Not because the situation hasn't been handled, but because it makes you more well rounded. get annoyed with me for asking, but don't assume that she's slacking, because I can assure she's not.

Don't worry I'll find another forum to ask questions in the furture, seeing as how I rarely get answers here anyway.