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Purina JM (Joint Mobility) diet

bendyfoot
July 30th, 2007, 11:31 AM
Has anyone ever used this food before?

Our vet has recommended it for Jaida, as a preventative measure to reduce wear on her remaining legs, especially her front leg which will now bear the majority of her body weight. I've only recently become more aware of the ingredients in my pet's foods, and have switched all of their diets to more holistic foods (Natural Balance for the cats and Performatrin Ultra for Gracie, but I'm probably going to switch that now too, because of the menadione).

The JM seems...ok...the first ingredients are brewer's rice, trout and salmon meal (lots of natural omega 3's...) but there's lots of unpronouncable stuff in it too, and menadione. The health of her joints is a MAJOR concern for me, probably the biggest. I'd like to keep her active and pain-free for as long as possible, so anything I can do is going to be done.

Just wondered if anyone has used this and what their opinions are.

geisha
July 30th, 2007, 12:57 PM
As you know, the first ingredient being a grain is not a good thing. Trout & salmon meal indicate this is a fish based food and that's great. Menadione is a nono.

May I suggest a fish based food with fish being the first ingredients that doesnot contain Menadione. Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue, Orijen Fish, California Natural Herring & Sweet Potato, Blue Buffalo Fish and others.
In a past issue of the Whole Dog Journal(200a7) they recommend supplimenting with salmon oil which is a great anti-inflammatory and glucosamine & condroitin. Yucca is also good for joints. Unfortunately I have all my WDJs packed away because we're moving shortly and I can't remember which issue it was in.

bendyfoot
July 30th, 2007, 01:20 PM
Thanks, I'm going to look into those. The Orijen and Timberwolf look really good. I don't mind supplementing with extra glucosamine if need be...the vet and I have talked about supplementing with glucosamine/chondroitin as well as fish oil...but I want to look into some food alternatives too.
Thanks for the info!

rainbow
July 30th, 2007, 03:40 PM
My preference would be Orijen 6 Fish if it's available where you are. Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue would be my next choice.

Supplementing with glucosamine/chondroitin is also good. You can also get it with MSM if you need an anti-inflammatory as well. There's also green lipped mussel that looks promising....

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/6/1634S

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15136981&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://publications.royalcanin.com/renvoie.asp?type=2&id=102493&com=3&animal=0&lang=2&session=1970347

Green lipped mussel is an ingredient in Sasha's Blend...

www.sashasblend.com

This place seems to have good prices...

http://www.vetproductsdirect.com.au/usacad/items.asp?Cc=Petjoint&iTpStatus=0&Tp=&Bc


Another good option is coconut oil. Here is a thread where it was discussed....

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=40731&highlight=coconut+oil

bendyfoot
July 30th, 2007, 03:57 PM
Thanks Rainbow. Of the ones suggested to me, Orijen 6 Fish looks like a great alternative. I've sent the information to my vet (who was open about other types of foods), and I'm curious to see what he says. I also asked about the menadione in the Purina food, and he didn't have much to say about it, sort of a "no comment"...weird...but he forwarded my email about it to Purina.

rainbow
July 30th, 2007, 05:46 PM
Well, Purina is going to say it has to be in there for blood clotting purposes and, I agree, dogs and cats need Vitamin K for that. However, they can use natural ingredients to supply Vitamin K. Or use Vitamin K1 instead of Vitamin K3 which is the menadione sodium bisulfite complex.

Glad to hear your vet is open minded when it comes to food choices. Let us know what he says about Orijen. :)

mummummum
July 30th, 2007, 06:26 PM
I would try the Oriigen if I were in your situation. I stopped using Timberwolf because they became close-mouthed around where their food is made during the recall crisis and they chnaged their ingredients without notification during the time I used it. I'm very happy with the Origen 6 fish foods and highly recommened it ~ it's very rich though so count on a transistion period.

bendyfoot
July 31st, 2007, 09:19 AM
Well, the vet is happy with the ingredients and the analysis for the Orijen, but of course he's still more comfortable with the Purina. It's what he knows, and in fairness, there is lots and lots of research that's gone into producing this diet, and it can back up its claims in terms of the health benefits for arthritic dogs. They also have vets on staff that can discuss the food.
He's still waiting for their reply about the menadione, but he said that it's not in quantities high enough in the food to cause a problem.
Still waiting to hear back from Orijen with their recommendations...

geisha
July 31st, 2007, 12:04 PM
Just a friendly reminder to keep your pup on the lean side just to prevent extra stress on the joints.
Nice to see an open minded vet. Phew! Wish I had one.

bendyfoot
July 31st, 2007, 12:08 PM
Oh yes, I'm very aware of the dangers of excess weight. We will always keep her on the lean side of healthy. She's a very sleek 45 lbs right now.

bendyfoot
August 2nd, 2007, 12:12 PM
Still haven't heard back from Orijen:sad:

I just had a really long conversation with the vet about the foods. He'd never heard of the menadione/k3 issue before...and he's still waiting to hear back from Purina about its presence in the food.

Basically he's saying that he wouldn't feed anything other than an Rx diet. He's been to the manufacturing plants, seen the research, gets stellar support from the vets and staff, and knows that the products do what they say they're going to do, etc. Fair enough.

He says there's he doesn't have enough information from the Orijen website to do a proper comparison, so I've asked them to send me whatever analyses they can....I hope they respond this time. He said that an AFFCO certification would make him feel better. They have it.

As for Purina's use of animal by-products in the foods, he says that while on tour in their facility they were told that they had to use the term because they do a sort of pre-digestion processing, but that it's actually meat, but they have no choice but to say by-product because of the processing. However, on at least on Purina FAQ, it says:

"Chicken by-product meal consists of ground clean parts of the chicken, including some internal organs and undeveloped eggs. It does not include feathers. Chicken by-product meal is commonly used in pet food products to provide a rich source of protein, fat and minerals, required by cats for growth and maintenance. The levels of protein, fat, calcium and phosphorus contained in these products are carefully monitored and regulated by law."

This seems pretty contradictory to me. Also, about the use of rice and corn etc. (grains) he said that for dogs, being omnivores, they can eat pretty well anything (which I'm sort of ok with, I have a biology background and generally speaking this is the case) and for cats no, they don't eat anything other than meat, but the grains are necessary binding ingredients in dry food. (I'm not so ok with that, it sounds lazy on the part of the food manufacturer).

geisha
August 2nd, 2007, 01:36 PM
You go girl!!!
It's great to analyse:thumbs up what you put into your pup & yourself. I've noticed that when I give my pups too much grains they gain weight and have more poops.

bendyfoot
August 2nd, 2007, 01:50 PM
:laughing: I'm hoping my growing paranoia about what my furkids are eating will soon transfer to my own diet...I'm eating a chocolate bar as I type this!:laughing: Mmmmm...processed sugary artificial goodness....:laughing:

geisha
August 2nd, 2007, 02:12 PM
Hey chocolate is a food group didn't you know.:lovestruck:
Chocolate is the equivalent of liver treats. Notice how I made treats plural.:laughing: Wow! I've just posted 100 times. :clown:

sugarcatmom
August 2nd, 2007, 02:54 PM
Still haven't heard back from Orijen:sad:

Good luck with that! I've emailed Champion Pet Foods a couple times trying to get the "as fed" dry matter analysis of their cat food, to no avail. They don't seem to be very forthcoming about the make-up of their products. :shrug:

bendyfoot
August 3rd, 2007, 10:38 AM
That's weird...

gypsy_girl
August 3rd, 2007, 05:03 PM
Perhaps Champion is not sure what you are asking even though it is a fair question. There is very little between "as fed" and "dry matter" which are two different things.
The differences between on label "crude" protein and as fed and DM have to do with the moisture content of the food. Although this is normally expressed as max 10%, laboratory analysis may put it closer to 8%.
If I want to know DM or as fed for a product, I am generally looking for a specific mineral, as I don't have use for knowing the whole dealio.
I would have use, however for the overall actuals based on grams per kcal, if I wanted to supplement based on body weight.
Maybe if you tell them what you want it for, they may be more forthcoming????

sugarcatmom
August 3rd, 2007, 06:01 PM
Perhaps Champion is not sure what you are asking even though it is a fair question. There is very little between "as fed" and "dry matter" which are two different things.
The differences between on label "crude" protein and as fed and DM have to do with the moisture content of the food. Although this is normally expressed as max 10%, laboratory analysis may put it closer to 8%.
If I want to know DM or as fed for a product, I am generally looking for a specific mineral, as I don't have use for knowing the whole dealio.
I would have use, however for the overall actuals based on grams per kcal, if I wanted to supplement based on body weight.
Maybe if you tell them what you want it for, they may be more forthcoming????

My understanding is that "as fed" percentages are averages of what would appear in a typical bag or can, where as the "guaranteed" amounts found on the label are just minimums and maximums. They can be the same, but are often not.

I was specifically looking for protein, fat, carbohydrate, water, fiber, ash and phosphorus "as fed" values, and did indicate that in my emails. Also told them it was for a diabetic cat and there would be a lot of other diabetic cat owners who would potentially be interested in their product. They didn't even bother with a canned reply or any kind of acknowledgment whatsoever. I know others who have tried as well, also with no response. I'm not saying their food is lousy, but their customer service sure is.

gypsy_girl
August 12th, 2007, 10:40 PM
Wow that's odd! I know others here have had luck with information from them. That's too bad, and certainly a change from the norm from what I have seen :confused:
I hope you find something:)

punkyamberlea
August 13th, 2007, 11:29 AM
I prefer Hills J/D for joints its FDA aproved and it has alot of fish oils in it. The only real side effect i know is VERY BAD GAS! AMber

geisha
August 13th, 2007, 05:56 PM
If you would like information on the ingredients of Hill's Prescription Diet j/d
I would strongly recommend www.dogaware.com.

Hill's contains the following ingredients:
Ground whole grain corn, chicken by-product meal, soybean mill run, brewers rice, soybean meal, peanut hulls, chicken liver flavour, fish oil etc.:yuck:

Guaranteed analysis protein 17%

The website also has information on feeding a dog with arthritis or joint problems that I would also like to strongly recommend.
You may also suppliment your pup with glucosamine & condroitin, MSM.
There are definitely better foods out there that would work for your dog. Please remember it's what your dog does best on that's the best for your dog.

:thumbs up

bendyfoot
September 5th, 2007, 10:15 AM
After research, reading, etc...I've decided to nix the Purina and I'm now feeding my dogs their first bag of Orijen Six Fish. Lots of high-protein, omega-ey goodness...plus is does have some glucosamine and chondroitin supplement in it...but we'll top it up with a little extra Gl/Ch in a pill form.

We've switched the cats to Orijen as well. Everyone LOVES the food! It's stinky as all-get-out, but everyone is tolerating it well so far. I'm so happy with the ingredients and can't wait to see how everyone is doing after a few months of this diet.

mummummum
September 5th, 2007, 12:29 PM
Mine is a Orijen 6 fish household as well! And so far, I've been very happy with the results as well.

mika140
September 5th, 2007, 04:17 PM
Sounds like you made a good choice! I looked at the pics of your pup, Jaida.....she is adorable. I have 2 GSD's myself. My older GSD (9yrs) had TPLO surgery for a torn ACL a couple years back. I think because she was already on science diet (although not a specialty one) the vet didn't even recommend a joint mobility food. He just wanted glucosamine/MSM supplements. After reading your post I was curious and started looking at the ingredients in those foods. The only positive difference I could see was the chicken cartilage (it says it is a natural source of glucosamine). To me, that's not enough to outweigh all the bad ingredients though.

I've been supplementing my 9yr GSD with glucosamine/chondrointin/MSM since her surgery and she has done great. Despite what seemed like high chances that the other leg would end up with a torn ACL, she's doing fantastic and no signs of problems in the other leg.

I'd definitely do the same as you chose and go with the higher ingredients. If at some point you look for another food, I noticed while I was researching that EVO RM has beef cartilage in it. I'm sure there may be others too, although I'm not sure if the cartilage in the food does anything more than a normal glucosamine supplement would.

mika140
September 5th, 2007, 04:20 PM
Oops....follow up....

Didn't mean to imply that my dog stayed on science diet because it has good ingredients :o

After doing ingredient research I switched her recently to Canidae Platinum (which has more to do with her being a senior dog than the joint issues).