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Breeder/Trainer

rameets
July 25th, 2007, 01:27 PM
Hello,
I bought a fully trained GSD protection and obedience from [business name removed], if anyone here has bought a GSD or any other dog from there, I'd appreciate your feedback because my GSD is starting to growl at me, my girlfriend and family. It for no reason tried to attack my mom last night, but I had a leash on it and controlled it from bitting her! We don't know if it's training or a breeding problem? I'd love the help if anyone can?

Thanks so much

Lukka'sma
July 25th, 2007, 01:51 PM
The best person to know the temperament of any certain dog would be the breeder. I would get in touch with the centre you made the purchase from and bring your concerns to them. Also I would ask if you have had any experience with these dogs, I find some people buy a breed and have no idea how to manage it once they get it home. They are not the best choice for a first time dog owner and do require someone with a good knowledge of what it takes to own one of these dogs.

rameets
July 25th, 2007, 03:15 PM
thanks for the reply lukka, yes i had a german shepherd in the past, it was a great dog, i find this one to behaving very strange, growling at me, attacking family, the trainer says its an overprotective problem, but ive had some ppl say that these 'breeders" are good and some say their bad, its very 50/50 so I don't know what to trust, i took him back and they want to correct it by training him, but i don't know if we can really trust it anymore, everyone in the family is scared of it. thanks

Lukka'sma
July 25th, 2007, 05:44 PM
I guess when the dog comes back home you should implement the N.I.L.I.F. training and make sure your dog realizes that you and all family members are higher up on the ole ladder rung than it is. Good luck and would love to hear how it's going.

pitgrrl
July 25th, 2007, 06:54 PM
Just from looking at their website, I would personally run far far away from them. They claim to have 24 breeds available, with 18 litters currently available of as many breeds (could they scream puppy mill any louder really?).

They don't actually describe what type of training they use, do you happen to have any insight into this?

Again, if I were in your position, I would not deal with these people any further, and certainly not return the dog to them. Instead I would find a breed savvy trainer, behaviorist, or someone with a ton of experience to temperement test the dog to give you some idea of what you're really dealing with (sketchy genetics, a dog ruined by heavy handed training, a combo.....). Once you have a reliable outside prespective on the situation you can decide what the best course of action is.

Maybe someone here can recommend a someone to help asses your dog? Otherwise you might want to see if any rescues in the area might recommend someone to you?

Frenchy
July 25th, 2007, 09:17 PM
I heard about them, but I'll ask tomorrow at work just to make sure it's the same place. I had many many bad feedbacks about that place. They don't use positive reinforcement AT ALL ! A coworker went there to train his dog, stayed 5 minutes and left. And it's not the first time I heard that. I will ask him tomorrow if this is the place.

mona_b
July 25th, 2007, 10:05 PM
First off,a properly trained "protection" dog should never ever act like this.

My GSD is SchH III titled.Part of SchH is protection work.He is the biggest suck ever.And he's also a retired Police Dog.

And the trainer said the dog was being overprotective?Of what?..I can understand if the dog was very protective of you.But the dog is growling at you.

pitgrrl is so right.You definately need to talk to a behaviorist.He needs to be TT..You have a loaded gun here with this dog,I'm sorry to say.

They want to correct it by training him/her?...The way I see it,the damage has been done with their training.I would find someone else for this.

Also,I read in another thread that you stated that no CKC papers were given to you.I take it no pedigree papers were given either?Do you know where this dog came from.You know anything about the parents?Were they health/genetic tested?TT?Sorry for all the questions.LOL

Why on earth would they be breeding all these breeds?Doesn't sound right to me.

Do you have a pic of your dog?

LavenderRott
July 25th, 2007, 10:24 PM
I wouldn't let these trainers anywhere near this dog again. Unless, of course, you are returning it for a full refund.

I have some pretty serious criteria that I look at when looking at breeders and someone who has 24 breeds of dogs available is most definately someone that I would not just walk away from - but RUN from! Somehow, I find it hard to believe that someone with that many puppies could possibly have time to properly socialize, train, or do anything meaningful with them, for that matter. I wonder if they can even begin to name the genetic issues common to even one of those breeds.

I also sure wouldn't want someone else to train a dog for me. A very important part of training is bonding with the dog, learning how to read it's language, it's learning how to read you, etc. All of this is lost when you let someone else train it.

I think that Mona is very right and if you are planning on keeping this dog, you are going to need some serious help. Please - contact some groups that help YOU train YOUR dog and see if they can recommend a behaviourist for you. I most certainly would avoid the "kennel" you got the dog from if you plan on keeping him.

Rottielover
July 25th, 2007, 10:28 PM
I know of this place, I have also visited this place. No way..no how would I ever have taken a puppy, let alone an adult dog from them.......Have you tried to contact them, what did they say

happycats
July 26th, 2007, 07:16 AM
great answers from all of the above.
I also think part of your problem may be (at least it seems from your posts) that you are not "attached" to this dog, as you have never mentioned "it's" name or "it's" sex.

Is this dog part of the family, or did you just get it for protection?
It's difficult for any dog, to behave and trust or be loyal if it doesn't feel some kind of bond to it's family (pack) .

clm
July 26th, 2007, 07:30 AM
The fact that they breed so many different types of dogs should have sent red flags up all over the place :shrug:

My puppies breeder trains dogs too, but she only breeds keeshonds and there's no protection training it's all obedience and confirmation.

This poor dog can be worked with, but you're going to need to get yourself a trainer to help.

Cindy

Frenchy
July 26th, 2007, 12:13 PM
I also think part of your problem may be (at least it seems from your posts) that you are not "attached" to this dog, as you have never mentioned "it's" name or "it's" sex.



I noticed too , maybe the OP is french ? I asked my coworker and yes , it is the same place. Franctly, I don't know why you didn't took off running when you saw the place. Seems it's pretty obvious. To train dogs that are too excited , they tie the dog to a pole , alone in a room, rope not long enough to let the dog lie down... cages piles one on top of the others with dogs in it....for everyone to see. Just to name a few. Didn't you see those signs ??? :confused:

rameets
July 26th, 2007, 12:23 PM
thank you all for your replies, I'm beginning to agree with all of you, well the situation turned out the same day as the attack, everyone in the family was afraid so we returned the dog, but they will not issue a refund at all! So I have a credit with them, so now what, I don't even want to buy from them, I've heard bad things about all their GSD. We were very attached to the dog, it's name is zack it was apparently the owners dog, and I paid 3000$ for him!! When I was looking into some people I asked said that they were good. He was bought as a family pet and also came to work with me and watched people, as it is a retail store. But he wasn't for that purpose. So now since my mom is scared, and I've realized that I blew my money, and encouraged their sham! the only thing I can think of doing, other than totally losing my 3000$ is getting a small breed puppy, and taking it just for basic obedience there, but please let my lesson be of help to everyone out there, do not purchase a dog from there! i've collected many bad stories from there. And I also believe someone asked me about their training method?? If it was that, it's the correction choke method at least with the GSD. And actually on small dogs too as I saw this on a daschund someone brought in for training. If anyone has any ideas to help me please don't be shy. And no the dog came with no papers at all, I was told he was pure, but apparently I guess not really pure since its a mill? Here is the link to his pictures, we loved him very much and made a small online album, and we only had him for a few days over 1 month. But someone said a GSD should not just attack like that, they are right, especially since my mom lived with us, he should know, and even if it was a stranger, it should attack on command.

http://picasaweb.google.com/gillnav/Zack

Thanks to all, I await your replies. And I appreciate the help even though it's a little too late.....

rameets
July 26th, 2007, 12:29 PM
I noticed too , maybe the OP is french ? I asked my coworker and yes , it is the same place. Franctly, I don't know why you didn't took off running when you saw the place. Seems it's pretty obvious. To train dogs that are too excited , they tie the dog to a pole , alone in a room, rope not long enough to let the dog lie down... cages piles one on top of the others with dogs in it....for everyone to see. Just to name a few. Didn't you see those signs ??? :confused:

thanks for the reply, I did see the GSD in the back tied up, but there were a few tied to the wall, and had sufficient amount of rope, I didn't see any dogs in cages, other than the ones infront for sale. I'm not too experienced with this, and most of the people (my customers) actually told me its a reputable place, some actually made me feel like they knew what they were saying! I'm not french :) although I speak it, but the reason I didn't give too much detail is because I'm usually occupied so I try to cut things short i guess, one of my flaws... and I was pretty worried and nervous about the dogs situation so it did not occur to me, but once again he was our baby. We decided to give him back to protect our family. The trainer said it was just an overprotective problem and it could be dealt with, but no one in the family had trust in it anymore, especially with 2 little kids around. He said that the dog was too confident, I find it to be the exact opposite.

Frenchy
July 26th, 2007, 12:40 PM
He said that the dog was too confident, I find it to be the exact opposite.

:sad: I'm afraid to know how they will correct this , it's obvious they don't know nothing about dog's behavior. I wonder if you have enough to make a complaint against them ? Then again , I'm not too sure where you could file a complaint....I could find out if you're interested. There is a rescue for GSD here in Montreal, check out petfinder.com. They have a few GSD listings, but these are family dogs , not guard dogs.

rameets
July 26th, 2007, 12:40 PM
if anyone does not know their website and wants to take a look, [please PM rameets for the facility name and website, if interested, thanks]

rameets
July 26th, 2007, 12:46 PM
:sad: I'm afraid to know how they will correct this , it's obvious they don't know nothing about dog's behavior. I wonder if you have enough to make a complaint against them ? Then again , I'm not too sure where you could file a complaint....I could find out if you're interested. There is a rescue for GSD here in Montreal, check out petfinder.com. They have a few GSD listings, but these are family dogs , not guard dogs.

thanks a lot, I thought about a complaint as well, but exactly where to right, puppy mills are legal I assume? They took the dog back even though it hurt to let him go because they gave me a 3 yrs tempermant gaurantee, as for the training to fix the over protectivness, they would provide lifetimes free tune up classes, so I did take my dog, and what they did was pretend to hit me and smack a leash along the walls to create loud noises, and everytime the dog barked I'd have to choke it and tell it no, but when I came home that evening my mom was upset since it was the 3rd time it had acted vicious with her, the 3rd time being horrible, and had growled at me and my gf , she didn't want it back in the house, i can't blame her, I can't get another GSD yet because everyone is scared, but I'll be sure to get more advice once i'm searching, any advice on what I could do with my 3000$ credit from centre canin? thanks again.

Frenchy
July 26th, 2007, 12:53 PM
any advice on what I could do with my 3000$ credit from centre canin? thanks again.

I wouldn't take any dog to get train there that's for sure. If you want to get another dog (not that it's a good thing , but $3000.00 is a lot of money) maybe you can ask if you could bring a specialist in behavior with you to choose your new dog ?

LavenderRott
July 26th, 2007, 12:53 PM
Personally, I think I would look at that money as a very expensive lesson learned. But that is me.

If you really want a GSD as part of your family - I am sure that you can find a lovely speciman of the breed with a local rescue group. While it probably won't come with papers, chances are it is being fostered with a family and you will be matched with a dog who's personality and temperment suit your family to a T!

If you really don't want to lose that money (and it is a LOT of money) then by all means pick a puppy of a smaller breed. I would look around for a different trainer though.:D

clm
July 26th, 2007, 01:14 PM
Oh yeah, I wouldn't be doing the training there. I'd be afraid of getting any puppy there to be honest with you, if they're breeding that many types, they can't be paying much attention to the health and quality of what they're breeding. Just because it has papers does nothing to attest to the quality of the pup.

Cindy

rameets
July 26th, 2007, 01:35 PM
thanks a lot guys, yeah I dunno what to do yet, I just gave up Zack 1 day ago, but yeah it is an expensive lesson learned, I wish that I could at least benefit other people that are planning to shop there, I'm speaking to all of my regular clients about it, letting them know. When you enter their store, they have this look that makes them seem like a GSD specialist, as they claim to be, I am not experienced just really really love dogs, so i didn't think about them having 24 different breeds, apparently they get the other breeds from families instead of breading themselves, but the GSD I believe they breed themselves, when I asked about the parents I was told the father was from Germany and cost them 10k. I know that happens but now that I think about it, he didn't seem like he knew more about the father than just that! I was in love with the dog as well, so there must have been a lot of things I didn't think about in the moment. thanks everyone, and if anyone you know is going there please advise them, saving those pups would be worth much more than my money. thanks

happycats
July 26th, 2007, 01:49 PM
You really should check out petfinders, I have seen many great GSD'd there and many were from great stock papered and obedience trained. ( I saw one ad was from a couple who spent $3000.00 for the dog and another $1500.00 in obedience training) the reason they had to rehome him is because the husband's job was sending him to Korea (in an apartment) so he didn't feel that was fair to the dog. (they only wanted a small adoption fee)

rameets
July 26th, 2007, 01:55 PM
You really should check out petfinders, I have seen many great GSD'd there and many were from great stock papered and obedience trained. ( I saw one ad was from a couple who spent $3000.00 for the dog and another $1500.00 in obedience training) the reason they had to rehome him is because the husband's job was sending him to Korea (in an apartment) so he didn't feel that was fair to the dog. (they only wanted a small adoption fee)

thanks happy, im on it now, but how can we be sure some people are not phonies? I got a niece and nephew (7 and 3) at home, don't want someone like me who bought a bad tempered dog to be trying to sell it... I'm taking a look though, thanks so much to all.

happycats
July 26th, 2007, 02:05 PM
thanks happy, im on it now, but how can we be sure some people are not phonies? I got a niece and nephew (7 and 3) at home, don't want someone like me who bought a bad tempered dog to be trying to sell it... I'm taking a look though, thanks so much to all.

Many of these dogs are in rescue and MOST rescues are very very honest, and have these dogs in their own homes with other dogs, cats and kids.

There are also GSD rescues, and they also have many of the dogs living with families, and they would be honest as well, as they want nothing but the best for the dogs they rescue, and the last thing they want is for the dog to be returned, so it wouldn't do any good to mislead you.

I also think there is something in place (don't know if it's law) that a rescue most disclose to potential adoptees that a dog bites, or is aggressive.

pitgrrl
July 26th, 2007, 02:14 PM
Many of these dogs are in rescue and MOST rescues are very very honest, and have these dogs in their own homes with other dogs, cats and kids.


I totally agree with this, and would go so far as to say that an adult rescue who has spent some time in a foster home is probably the most predictable situation from which to get a dog.

That said, it's always worth asking around about rescues. Why not do some research on petfinder etc., gather a list of rescues that look good and then ask around about them.

Jim Hall
July 26th, 2007, 03:18 PM
plaese look at rescues and shelters in your area ther are so many animals who need a good home I have had 3 dogs and they all were wonderfull and they all came from shelters

mona_b
July 26th, 2007, 09:57 PM
What a very handsome boy.;)

There is a HUGE differance between a "protection" dog and a "guard" dog.On their site under "protection" training,they use the word guard dog.Guard dog training is totaly different.And I'm thinking this is how he was trained.A Guard dog is what I call a loaded gun.It will attack anyone at any time.

A protection trained dog is not trained to go after any and everyone.They are trained to "hold" their bite.

There is no over protectiveness with this dog.It's the training he has had.Being over protective would mean if your gf or Mom came close to you and he wanted to attack.BUT he is growling at YOU.Am I making sense?This is an excuse they are telling you.


I am totally appauld as to the "choking" method of theirs.

My breeder also trained.She trained in SchH III along with Conformation.

I also agree with lookin into a rescue.

As far as I know,a rescue will never adopt out an aggressive dog.

Rottielover
July 26th, 2007, 10:06 PM
The GSD rescue in montreal, I know personally. They are a positive training facility, and work with all their rescues. If you are still willing to adopt a GSD, they are great. I have brought Harley in there for training. With me there of course. LOL
They also do OB trials. Everything with them is positive. They would never adopt out a dog that could not be a FAMILY pet.

Frenchy
July 26th, 2007, 10:13 PM
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8047605

Here's one of their dogs up for adoption, they have more.

satchelp
July 26th, 2007, 11:41 PM
Rameets,

If I were in your position, I would seriously consider filing a case against this company in the Court of Quebec. I just searched Canadian Case Law and this company and owner of this company have been before the Court of Quebec a number of times and, in most cases, have lost. You mentioned a temperament guarantee. You may want to consult a lawyer to see if you have a case.

The other thing .. if they sold you a 'purebred' dog and this is documented somewhere, or you have some other evidence of this, and you did not receive CKC registration papers for the dog, then this contravenes the Animal Pedigree Act of Canada and you can involve the RCMP.

chico2
July 27th, 2007, 08:27 AM
Looking at this beautiful dogs pic made me tear up,knowing he is back at this awful place,I wish there had been another alternative:sad:

happycats
July 27th, 2007, 08:33 AM
Looking at this beautiful dogs pic made me tear up,knowing he is back at this awful place,I wish there had been another alternative:sad:

I know, I have been thinking about this poor pup too, if they can't "re sell" (god knows how many times he's been sold) he may be used to breed. :sad:

If I were the OP, I would go after these jerks!!! The best way maybe would be to go public about how they are breeding selling "trained" dogs (badly trained to be vicious) and how these poorly trained dogs are a danger to the public!! Maybe that would shut them down!

rameets
July 27th, 2007, 01:16 PM
Thank you all so much for keeping up with me for this, it means a lot. Thanks for bringing up the court of quebec, my gf is actually in law school so she is doing the research for me. However it's nothing similar to what happened to us. It has to do with sick dogs, dogs that were trained having to be retrained in the future and were asked to pay again, and problem with a dog trainer. I went to see him today to try and get my money back, they told me to take a pup, same training as zack for the future, and 1000$ back but I said no way. So we are still in discussion as to what will happen. But please advise everyone never to go here, you would be surprised how busy these people are. I found out through a trainer that they keep their dogs "upstairs" and even the trainer was admitting it was too hot to be up there for more than 2 seconds, imagine these double coated GSD and other dogs sitting in their all day!! I do miss Zack but I don't know what i could have done to help him since I spent all my savings on him and to top it all of now they are holding this money!

Thanks please keep me posted on your thoughts.
Rameet

rameets
July 27th, 2007, 04:23 PM
Update for everyone, I can't get my money back so, I will be choosing a boston terrier or sheltie (cute dogs) but unfortunatley they will be from this same place for $600, + obedience training/private lessons I am having to take 400$ + without leash training $300, + 100$ worth of food (royal canin) and 1500$ back in cash. Unfortunatley I've lost money, but I've learnt a lesson. Once the pup is on it's feed I do intend to look into rescuing a GSD. I would love to inform the public about these people. How could they "breed" sell and train dogs when it seems as if they don't give a $hit about the animal? Some ppl can be evil!

love to hear from you all.
P.S I will be choosing one of these 2 breeds because my family is not interested in a big dog after this incident, and also because I was informed these 2 breeds are not bred by them so it should be a little better hopefully. Also I will be picking the litter up the day it arrives, I don't want it to even touch their cage.

LavenderRott
July 27th, 2007, 04:50 PM
Before you pick out which breed, you need to do a ton of research on the internet and see which suits your family and your lifestyle better.

Also - if the training isn't positive reinforcement type training - I would consider that part of the money a loss. Both breeds are fabulous, in the right family but rough training with either can destroy the temperment of the dog making it snappy and hard to handle. Remember - you want this dog to be a family friend - you need to treat it with the respect that you expect from it.

Stick around here - I am sure that we can help you get your pup housebroken and a lot of the beginning training going.

rameets
July 27th, 2007, 05:36 PM
Hey Lavender, thanks for the post, you know funny enough I had the samething in my head, these breeds live between 13 and 15 yrs and if I spend 700$ on this negative training and have an unhappy dog for the rest of it's life, I rather lose that 700$.

By the way, what kind of training is positive? I'm still a little new too this, not too much experience. But I really hope to somehow make a difference in slowing down at least these guys sales. Every customer of mine has been asking me where is your dog, and I've been explaning them my story, making sure they understand not to go there. I'm sure some will listen, and others will think I just had a bad experience. Wish I could somehow make it public.

Sheltie seems to have many health problems. but it's very adaptable to my life, boston is as well but seems to have less problems. The dog is going to stay with me pretty much all day, it's going to come to work with me, go home with me, take walks with me, etc.

That's why I had purchsed a GSD but unfortunatley it was from the wrong place!

Thanks again

Rottielover
July 27th, 2007, 05:41 PM
If you are worried about health issues. take the 1500 cash back, forget about a dog from them.
These dogs have not been socialized, just stuck in cages from 6 weeks. So even a small dog can have major temp issues, or health.
Get your money and run....run...run...

rameets
July 27th, 2007, 05:45 PM
I'm starting to feel this way as well, it's much less of a problem than to lose the money. But it's still going to help and encourage their puppy mill torture scam... I feel horrible for going there in the first place, now that I think back to them, how could I not have figured it out?!

Rottielover
July 27th, 2007, 06:23 PM
Go with your gut, if your gut says no, then don't do it. It is an expensive lesson learned, but lot less chance for heart ache in the future, as well as supporting a miller.
At least they are offering 1500$ back, so not a full loss.

Frenchy
July 27th, 2007, 07:28 PM
By the way, what kind of training is positive?


Basicly it's : instead of punishing a dog when he/she does bad things, you reward them when they listen to you. It makes dogs a lot happier and they learn so much faster , and makes them want to please you because they see how happy it makes you when they do listen.

rameets
July 28th, 2007, 01:08 PM
Basicly it's : instead of punishing a dog when he/she does bad things, you reward them when they listen to you. It makes dogs a lot happier and they learn so much faster , and makes them want to please you because they see how happy it makes you when they do listen.

thanks for the post, so when they do something bad do you just say NO? or you ignore it? I'm guessing not ignore it right?

Also yeah my gut says not to get it there, especially because I've been youtubing puppy mills, its horrrrrible, the things they do I never thought possible! Apparently now that I look into this, Quebec is the worst place! It is full of puppy mills! Yes I got the 1500$ back with a credit note for 1 puppy, level 1 and 2 obedience in private with an instructor, and 3 bags of royal canin food.

Frenchy
July 28th, 2007, 04:16 PM
thanks for the post, so when they do something bad do you just say NO? or you ignore it? I'm guessing not ignore it right?



A simple firm no will do it , but you have to caught them in the act. If , lets say you find something already destroyed , or a little accident (pee or poop) that's been there for a while, it's too late. No need to show the dog, he won't understand. :shrug:

Like LavenderRott suggested , if you stick with us , you can get help with training your new pup. I am no expert , but others will be able to help with any situation.

LavenderRott
July 28th, 2007, 04:41 PM
If you get a puppy, it is usually simply a matter of redirecting your pup from the undesired behaviour to a desired one. If the pup is chewing on your fingers, for example, say "no" and give it a toy to chew on.

If this is done consistantly, it shouldn't take your pup long at all to learn what it can and can't chew on.

My biggest thing is the command "Come". So many people just assume that the dog will learn the command that they don't use common sense. Keep your pup on a leash until the command is 100% reliable and don't use the word if you can't reinforce the behaviour. Remember - the more you use a command that your puppy doesn't have to actually do - the more the pup will assume that commands can be followed when he/she feels like it.

rameets
July 28th, 2007, 10:14 PM
thanks guys, its clear to me now, for sure i'm going to stick with you guys, all of you helped me through this mistake, and it made me realize how many dogs are in need of help, and i really wish to make a contribution throughout my life, so many ppl don't think or even realize that they just walk into pet shops or ppl that claim to be breeders without having the knowledge of where the pup comes from... people need to be informed, i hope many or almost all would stop shopping at these pet shops and pretend breeders. i certainly would not have looked at it even once if i knew what i was supporting by buying zack.