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Schutzhund

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 03:57 PM
Does anyone know of any websites where i could find out if there are any training places in phx,az for schutzhund training??

chico2
May 10th, 2004, 04:26 PM
Heidiho...why don't you just say,Guard-Dog training instead of using the german word? Is that what your dog is going the be,a Guard-Dog?
Yes,I do speak German....

Luba
May 10th, 2004, 04:37 PM
(giggles under breath)

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 04:45 PM
Good for you,yeah he is gonna be my guard dog.......Do you have a problem with the german word for it?? really dont see the big deal if i say it the way or the other..... giggles out loud//////////

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 04:46 PM
didnt ask if you spoke german,asked if anyone knew of a trainer in arizona///

chico2
May 10th, 2004, 05:20 PM
Heidiho,It would just make sense to me,if you like help with something it would benefit you if people understood what you are talking about..but maybe you also knew,that most people here probably are not involved in Guard-Dog training,but I could be wrong.Look it up in the phone-book,under Dog-Training :rolleyes:

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 05:55 PM
I did and found some,just thought everyone here sure talks like they do know everything so thought i would ask,thank you though....

woodbyter
May 10th, 2004, 06:02 PM
Persons seeking Schutzhund Training strickly for protection of themselves is about as smart as handing a loaded 38 to a child. I do not know what your background in dog training is but unless you are an experienced trainer and handler of G.S. going into Schutzhund training with a dog is getting the cart before the horse.
I have found far too many people who are fooled into thinking a protection trained dog is their life saver. Not so. Many persons offer this training but the temperment of the dog must be evaluated as well as the background and temperment of the handler-owner.
My suspecion is you are not really familar with Schutzhund training or you would know if there were any reputable trainers in the Phoenix area.
I am not offering my comments as a put down-just wondering if you really know how to choose a dog and what to do once you start training-which is a life long process, not a 6 week course from which will prance your killer canine ready to chomp on the arm of a perceived threat person.

Good Luck

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 06:08 PM
Not saying i am gonna do it for sure,but it is something i would like to get to know more about,i live alone and i know my dog naturally will be protective,was reading about it and it sounds interseting to me..If they say it is not something i really want to do with my dog i wont... ;) These dogs are so smart why wouldnt i want him to learn???

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 06:10 PM
And yes i do know how to train a dog,i know it is a lifelong process,i have someone coming over on thursdays with what i need to be doing with him throughout the week,i know what a huge responsibility owning a dog is,or i wouldnt of gotten him........... ;)

Karin
May 10th, 2004, 06:30 PM
Ms. Ho, you make about as much sense as a dead rock.

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 06:34 PM
Thank you, i am so happy all of you are such professionals and know everything there is to know about pets,i LOVE this website very amusing...thanks,MS.ho///////// this has got to be the most uptight group of people i have ever chatted with........... ;) THE ROCK///

Bill & Bob
May 10th, 2004, 06:58 PM
Let's not start a %#*^ flinging contest again folks. No need to be nasty to someone for asking a question.

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 07:05 PM
Wow!! I thought it was just me,but i am not trying to be rude here,but i also think some peoples comments here are very uncalled for,so please dont reply to my questions with your own immature comments......Thanks,Bob///// :D

cedes
May 10th, 2004, 07:05 PM
when i first entered this site i got a lot of help and support, I'm kind of suprised at the responses i just seen, I was thinking of the same thing for my dog when i got her, looked into it more and decided it wasn't the right thing for us. Does it make someone a bad person. Thats why these sites are great you can learn!

Lucky Rescue
May 10th, 2004, 07:09 PM
Actually, schutzhund is a game for dogs - a sport. However, before even thinking about doing this, your dog will need to obedience trained to perfection and completely socialized and have no aggressive tendencies. This is about intelligence, agility and endurance and needs to be taught by very competent trainers.

German Shepherds, among other other breeds, are naturals for this. This is an activity that requires a lot of time and dedication.

Cedes, the responses you see here are a reaction to another thread started by heidiho, than ran over 170 posts. She repeatedly asked the same questions and got annoyed when people got fed up answering them over and over again.

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 07:16 PM
If i want to ask the same question a thousand times i will,i want to make sure i do EVERYTHING right for my puppy,so if you have problem with that get over it,and dont respond to my questions..........

Luba
May 10th, 2004, 07:18 PM
Actually I think asking once is good enough. Asking more then once is trying to focus attention on 'yourself' not the dog.

Afterall your queries are about your dog, right! :rolleyes:

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 07:20 PM
You have got to be kidding with that comment,i dont need to come here to get attention,believe me,thought i could find some useful info here..

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 07:21 PM
p.s. No asking more than once is someone who wants to be sure they do the right thing.............

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 07:23 PM
So would you just ask One QUESTION when getting a new pet????? I doubt it,so i wanted a bunch of different opinions on what not to feed my dog before i bought a new food,not just one persons opinion...............

Luba
May 10th, 2004, 07:27 PM
Do you want some advise on how to use the site with regards to posting?
I'm not being sarcastic but you just posted 3x in a row when you could have included it in one post.

I'd be happy to offer you advise or show you how to edit your post if you forgot to put something in it.

By the way thanks for this lovely p/m u just sent:


heidiho
Member Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 82

g s

Just wanted to send you a personal note,you are the rudest person...Do you have a life?? job??? anything///

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 07:29 PM
You got another one coming also..AND YOUR WELCOME//

cedes
May 10th, 2004, 07:31 PM
Luckyrescue thanks for your response, i didn't know, actually what you said is why i chose not to get invloved with schutzhund with my dog. I have the time for her but not that much time. And I know a sport like that should not be taken lightly.

Bill & Bob
May 10th, 2004, 07:32 PM
No, actually asking the same questions more than once is usually something a moderator would call "A reduntant topic" and would refer you back to the first time you asked the question and were given an answer. Not trying to be a jerk here Heidiho, but that's the way message boards go. That way others who are looking at the board don't have to surf through the same thing over and over again.

As for the guard dog thing, my opinion is that you should ask about it if you are interested in it. I agree with LR though in that any reputable trainer will tell you that you need more time with your dog, and need to perfect and I mean perfect obedience training first. I own an 80lb German Shepherd and I don't think you'll have to do much to ensure that they will protect you if there's ever a problem. No need to turn the dog into an attack dog. Defending is already in their nature and it will come out naturally if need be.

Spoiled
May 10th, 2004, 07:33 PM
OK, I didn't read all of the replies because they didn't make much sence... but here are some sites that might help you:

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/
http://finographics.com/schutzhund/
http://www.dvgamerica.com/whatis.html
http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0035.htm
http://www.dvgamerica.com/

And for all you who don't know what you're talking about, I'll give you some information about the sport.

Schutzhund is a sport. It is not meant for protection dogs. Police dogs and Schutzhund dogs are quite different. Police dogs are working with the police tracking, protecting, and doing all kinds of dangorous work, that could mean death to even the most skilled dog. Schutzhund, on the other hand, is a sport that people do for fun, or competitions.

So, you guys, no offense, but please don't talk about stuff you know nothing about.

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 07:36 PM
Thanks for the info,thought it might be something good for him to learn,and good for me living alone,but i think i will just stick with his obedience training,his instinct will probably be all the proctection i need... :)

Luba
May 10th, 2004, 07:36 PM
What is the facination you have with the
////// key?
They make a product called 'Dust Off' It's compressed air, perhaps you could invest in a can to clean your keyboard, some of your keys seem not to be functioning correctly.

I don't particularly find myself rude, like your last p/m to me suggests. It is too bad that you feel that way.


heidiho
Member Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 83

g s

You just put people down everywhere/////////

Bill & Bob
May 10th, 2004, 07:36 PM
Well, there ya go. I didn't know if Schutzhund was a brand of sausage or a German beer! Now I know. Even if it was a beer, I think I'll stick with Heiniken.

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 07:40 PM
Not sure i, just like that symbol///// I just think some of your comments are un-called for.Someone with a new baby would ask a million questions,and i am sure some of those would be repeated questions,well this is my baby,so if i want 140 different opinions about what i should feed him,then i will ask til i get 140...........

Bill & Bob
May 10th, 2004, 07:43 PM
And.........like I said before, the moderator should be locking the thread and referring you to the first answer you got........

heidiho
May 10th, 2004, 07:45 PM
OK!!WHATEVER,i am really done discussing this whole thing,i am not in high school and this is getting really old......i am over it,you guys should be to..getting ready to post new question,so please dont answer if you are gonna be so rude..

Bill & Bob
May 10th, 2004, 07:51 PM
Can't wait.

Lucky Rescue
May 10th, 2004, 08:05 PM
Nothing wrong with asking a million questions - that's good. BUT asking the SAME questions a million times shows either a desperate bid for attention or a very limited attention span.

I just addressed your question about Schutzhund very politely. I see you ignore any and all helpful answers and seem to post merely to be annoying or to get a rise. That is know as "trolling" on the internet.

By the way, "symbols" are not used in written language. What you want is PUNCTUATION.

If you think that's rude, just get over it!

Bill & Bob
May 10th, 2004, 08:34 PM
Exactly, on a message board each new post should be somewhat meaningful at minimum and add new substance to the thread. When you repost the same question again and again, it makes other users think you aren't reading their responses or don't care about what they've said. If that's the case, then you are simply taking up more space on the thread and everyone else has to trudge through more and more meaningless posts. Normally people will get bored with this and not return to the message board because it gets boring.
Every now and again, someone is going to refer you to an information source you can do some research with. This information might not be on this site. When this happens, it's sort of expected that you are going to check the referral out and internalize the information.
Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, and I'm certainly not taking sides. I've seen antagonistic comments made by both "sides" of this equation. I tried to find some board rules on here, but couldn't find anything that might guide you on message board etiquette.
Might not be a bad idea to have it here, because if it's not available you can't slight someone for not paying attention to board rules. Especially with the topics that get discussed.

pattycakes
May 10th, 2004, 08:47 PM
Well said Bill/Bob.

Karin
May 10th, 2004, 08:57 PM
Well said Bill...but I think the majority here uses common sense. We all have it, it is not a gift.
I still think this is an immature person seeking only attention. This board is here for another reason other than offering cheese to go with her whine.
As for the other long winded thread Ms. Ho started, it was quiet for many days and she could not leave well enough alone.
She does have the "pay attention to me" attitude.
I will try to be good from now on.
*I said try*
Thank you for your post.

Bill & Bob
May 10th, 2004, 09:05 PM
Such accolades! If you see a post with just spaces in it, it's a cry for help because my head has swollen, landed on the space bar and I can't get up.

Karin
May 10th, 2004, 09:13 PM
((( BILL)))....










..you big goof!

If that should happen I am sure Bob will awaken you with a wet, slobbery face....now , breathe deep!

Luba
May 10th, 2004, 10:11 PM
Train Bob to be a service dog then

He can rescue you from vast space bar'itis!

Catt31
May 10th, 2004, 10:33 PM
K, I can't keep my mouth shut any longer!! You keep saying you live alone and need your dog for protection...well honey, I think YOUR bark will scare away any potential intruder! You are VERY defensive and very snappy. I really don't think its the people's responses you are upset with, I think you are upset with the fact that you aren't getting the answers YOU want. Yes, you came here for help, you asked questions, you got answers! Done! End of story! Why keep rehashing it??If you think we are all rude and "unprofessional", then LEAVE!! No one is begging you to stay.

I enjoy this board, but I certainly don't like the animosity that has been going on, and coincidently, they are all YOUR posts.... hmmmmm!!!! I'm not trying to be rude or mean, I'm telling it like I see it, and I couldn't bite my tongue any longer!! I agree there should be board etiquette somewhere...did you email Marko??? You should!!!!

BTW...Karin...LMAO @ "Ms Ho" (too funny!!!) :D

Luba
May 10th, 2004, 11:07 PM
This was for my own interest, furthering my knowledge base so to speak and thought to share it with u:

After my reading these but many other articles on the type of training these dogs go through it would be absolutely irresponsible to have a family pet go through this training. There is NO need or use for it and the dog's a ticking time bomb...it's not performing and working daily as a true police dog (scenerio) would.

Anyone who would do this is asking for trouble IMHO.

Schutzhund is a German word meaning “protection dog"

Schutzhund training is extremely complex," he read. "If the foundation is not 100-percent correct, it's only a matter of time before animal and handler run into problemsSchH is designed to be fun, he said, but with improper training or lack of knowledge in the trainer, it can be dangerous. Running along the fence and barking at passersby is a warning flag, as is biting the trainer, he said

The dangers and risks
http://www.kstatecollegian.com/issues/v101/su/n155/news-rotttrial-henderson.html

Witnesses testified Tuesday and Wednesday in Geary County District Court, in Junction City, that Jeffrey and Sabine Davidson owned three Rottweiler dogs trained for aggression.

Christopher Wilson was attacked by these dogs at a corner near his home in Milford, Kan., where he waited for the school bus around 7:30 a.m. on April 24, witnesses said

http://www.readthehook.com/stories/2003/04/02/essayMurderByDogOwnersLiab.html

In the Kansas case, the defendant raised the dogs as attack dogs through "Schutzhund" techniques, where a dog is taught to bite a padded sleeve until commanded to stop. But she didn't accompany the techniques with the necessary obedience training. She then kept the dogs in her backyard where they were regularly able to escape through a defective gate. The jury found that the defendant's conduct amounted to a depraved indifference to the value of human life, warranting a murder conviction.

chico2
May 10th, 2004, 11:23 PM
Well,one last line before I go to bed.I knew nothing about Schutzhund being some sort of sport.Only what the words meant,Schutz=guard,protect,Hund=Dog of course.So I understood guard-dog and miss Ho agreed,said she wanted her dog to protect her,not for any sport.
I think there is some major confusion going on here on miss Ho's side,I just hope not in regards to the puppy.

Karin
May 10th, 2004, 11:44 PM
Long before I started working with animals first in animal/rabies control and then animal health I was training dogs...the Schutzhund III training program was part of it. I use very little of it today..this is a higher level of training for handlers and their dog and in the wrong hands....let's just say it is not for everybody. It is fine tuning....and control. It is like turning on a light switch and then off...once you have 100% attention from your dog you can go just about anywhere with it.
I do not see where anyone really needs to use all of these methods right now...I use some basic rules..as far as the attention and keeping it.
I live alone also, Ciara is not aggressive and I will not allow her to be (..the uber goober) Her presence is all I need for protection.....I know she would fight for me without being told to (proven) and I do not want her labeled as a trained dog, she already has to deal with the Rotti label. She is such a goober.

Most trainers evaluate the owners also before accepting them into a program...it is a matter of liability.

Bill & Bob
May 11th, 2004, 03:30 AM
Well put. Bob has already shown me that he doesn't need any training to protect the homestead either. Natural instinct.
I've even heard that to put a "Beware of Dog" sign in front of your house can produce liability if someone enters your property and a dog acts to protect the property in a not so nice manner. Something happened in Canada that produced a decision in court. Not sure where.
A friend of mine has a "Strange dogs in yard" sign in front of her house. Said it can't get her in trouble if anything happens. Very funny.

amaruq
May 11th, 2004, 09:23 AM
Ok ok i been trying to ignore this person but Catt you nailed what I was thinking on the head! And whats worse you gave me the greatest belly laugh while I was reading it lol! Thank you I needed that very badly!

Look you don't need a dog to be so heavily trained...they will protect you if they want too..no matter how much training they have. I have Goldy that I swear would lick the intruder to death. Motzi and Liz would freak out.

As for the intruder getting bitten or mauled. Yep your poor puppies will be in trouble. I talked to a lady from the courts who lived up the street. She told me to take down all the "Beware of dog" signs and let the poor bugger get ripped to peices. If your gonna be in trouble might as well go all the way.

Spoiled
May 11th, 2004, 09:40 AM
I could pick on you guys sometimes to. :mad:

You guys are right; if you don't like the person, stay away, but is that what your doing? :confused: I don't think so. :rolleyes:

mona_b
May 11th, 2004, 10:08 AM
For those who don't know,my one dog is a retired Police Dog.He has his
SchH III certificate.He had to pass his SchH I-II to get it..And there are 3 stages to SchH...You have tracking,obedience and then the protection.Both Yukon and Trons parents and pedigrees have titles for this.Along with show titles.You really need to have the time and a good dog to do this.It is a sport,and it is fun for both dog and handler.BUT not everyone can do it.Your dog must know all basic commands.And that means stay in the "sit" "stay" or "down" for 15 mins and more without even moving.Must know the "heel" command.SchH I starts at the age of 18 months.I worked very hard with Tron.I had to if he was going to pass.I never put Yukon in SchH..Never needed to.Never wanted to.He is very protective of the family.

We have the "beware of dog" signs up.Alway have.As for the liabilty having it up,not really.It actually warns anyone who wants to be be brave enough to break in,then go right ahead..No one has been dumb enough to break into my place.Most of the houses that have been broken into have not had a sign..And many that have had their dog attack someone who has broken in,have never been charged.But then again it varies from place to place...My brother even has a sign up.I have had this conversation with my brother many a times.

Luba
May 11th, 2004, 10:16 AM
Mona, you know from our convo's before my b'g ;)
I'm not against the training, it's needed for certain situations and circumstances.

What I do disagree with is the thought of someone turning a family dog into a 'guard dog' type working dog mentality WHEN the dog has nothing to work at!

In particular this heidiho who's concerned about her dog 'biting / nipping' behaviour and she wants the dog trained to attack???

SMH!

No more, I wont' do it no more
(talking to self) this person is getting too much attention from us..what she has been seeking and we fall for it because we still have the 'I want to help' attitudes, though she obviously isn't looking for help.

But ...thats just my opinion. Not answering this thread any more! :p

mona_b
May 11th, 2004, 10:35 AM
I agree 100% Luba.

The worse thing anyone can do is train a dog to be a "gaurd" dog that is showing a bit of aggression already....It's like having a loaded gun.

heidiho,please just concentrate on his obedience training.Sit,stay,heel,down,off.leave it..These are the main common ones...Focus on them.You want a loving family dog.Not a vicious one.Cause if that is what happens,you are asking for trouble.And I am very serious when I say this.You can't screw around with these breeds.Or any other for that matter.He is still a baby.

Question.Why did you get this breed?

heidiho
May 11th, 2004, 10:58 AM
Because i wanted this breed... And for everyone's littles comments,if you think i asked over and over again to get attention that is COMICAL..thanks for the good laugh,OK everyone can let it go now..Dont worry everyone got all the info i need on schutzhund,oops i mean protection dog....wont be back on this thread going to my other question,so please dont be on that thread...

Spoiled
May 11th, 2004, 02:05 PM
Thats OK, I understand. Whats your other question? :confused:

heidiho
May 11th, 2004, 03:03 PM
About dog parks,whether i should bring my dog to one or not... :rolleyes:

Spoiled
May 11th, 2004, 05:09 PM
I take it you have a big dog, which should not be as bad. My little guy when he was only a pup was at an off leash park and a huge dog started chasing him. He is still nervous even though he's about 14 months old, now. :rolleyes:

It totaly depends on the dog park. If its fenced, thats a plus for some dogs that run away. If it isn't... well you need good recal.

But big dogs need a rip around off leash often. :D

heidiho
May 11th, 2004, 05:37 PM
He is a german shepherd he will be 5 months on may20...about 35 pounds....give or take//

heidiho
May 11th, 2004, 05:45 PM
He is a german shepherd he will be 5 months on may20...about 35 pounds....give or take//

melanie
May 11th, 2004, 06:08 PM
gee i love you guys, i always get a good hard laugh from you all in the mornings, nice way to start the day laughing, but you are all really cute :D .
look charlie has never had any protection training and i dont encourage her agression, but we have never been messed with in 8 years, no harassment, no breakins nothing. she is GSD and is naturally a very protective girl, GSD are so teretorial (i cant spell) they are just naturally protective. if ever anyone has hassled us i have asked them to step into my yard and sort it out, ha, never happened. but i dont allow her to be like that anyother time, just when we get hassles. i think when you have that strong bond it just happens naturally, just like im protective of her. and it takes alot of time ect and needs to be done perfectly, i know there are those places you can send the dog and he comes back trained but that is just tooo dangerous.
if you want him to learn and have lots of fun i suggest dog trialing. it is a fantastic activity and just ssooooo cute, and it is great for the dog and for your relationship and the dogs learn so much and use agility ect. and it really is just adorable to see them doing the right moves ect.
take him to dog park on lead, good for socialising while he is still little, when he is bigger it will be harder to convince people to let him play with their dogs, so get in as much as you can now.

heidiho
May 11th, 2004, 06:16 PM
The bond i do have with him is pretty awesome,i couldnt ask for a sweeter puppy,well except when he eats.. I am just gonna stick with the trainer i have and then some obedience school...Never thought i could love somethign as much as this,who needs children,not me..

melanie
May 11th, 2004, 06:31 PM
the bond between some humans and dogs is just incredible, i would do anything for my girl. no one, not even my husband knows me like her, we have been together for so long now, shared a bed for many years and at times were each others only company fopr extended periods of time....and the love we have is just different, it is stronger than anytype of love as it is based on feeling and instinct, no words. she never gets angry with me, we nover fight, if im sad she is aways there for a hug, and when i come home it is like i hung the moon. i also believe because of our strong bond we have a type of esp connection (i am in no way spititual at all so it is an unusual claim form me). i was once in the desert with no phone around (charlie was staying wiht my flatmates) for days, i had a nightmare that she was hit by a white car in our street and died of head injuries. when i got back to civilisation i ran home screaming where is she, is she dead. well my flatmates nearly fell over, what happened she was running around a white car in the back yard and didnt stop in time and ploughed into the car with her head splitting it open. it happened the day i had the dream. i believe this was her way of calling out to me to come home as something was not right. it has happened a few times since then when she is unhappy with something. i often think that i would never cope without her, she is everything to me, i even have her photo in my purse to show people. it is just wonderful isnt it, to be so close to an animal, i think it harks back to our semi-primative days when animals were an intergral part of our lives, it just feels so right. i just love my dog :D :D

heidiho
May 11th, 2004, 06:38 PM
That last sentence was perfect,i love coming home from work,seeing him,his ears flopdown and he just lays on massive kisses and stares at me,people at work here think i am obsessed and i am,would walk on fire for him...Still debating about letting him sleep in bed with me,i have before but he is a very dominant dog,so i dont know if it is a good idea,dont want him to think he is the alpha... :confused: :confused: :confused:

heidiho
May 11th, 2004, 06:39 PM
For melanie,do you have pics??

melanie
May 11th, 2004, 07:05 PM
we only slept together out of necessity, no blankets, really poor and really cold. she helped keep me warm. but i wouldnt let her do it unless necessary, she isnt allowed on beds except very rarely.
i will post a pic eventually, just odnt have scanner so hubby has to do it at work and he never remembers. but i am hoping to soon. she is a GSD X so she is GSD looks and manner except caramel color with white chest (but GSD markings in this color), the rest of litter were traditional colors of black and brown. she is very pretty and sooo soft. and she is the only one left alive out ofthe litter and her mum is dead also. so lucky we found each other, or who knows....we were meant to be :eek: :D

heidiho
May 11th, 2004, 07:16 PM
I know,i just got my own place so i am doing the floor thing,and i want to let him sleep with me when i go to sleep but i know that is not a good idea,when i live in kentucky and first had him i let him sleep in the bed with us,but now he is getting a little more domineering so i put him in the crate....

Spoiled
May 11th, 2004, 07:26 PM
If he is trying to be alpha, then no sleeping in bed with you. This may make him feel 'equal' and he may try to take over your leadership.

I'm not sure about the age of your pup. Waiting until he's older and listens reliably to the word 'come' (if he doesn't already) would probably be the best thing. But going when there isn't a lot of dogs there and he can get to know some and make friends is good for socialization.

heidiho
May 11th, 2004, 07:29 PM
Yeah,he knows sit,stay,down,go potty,he knows wanna go for a ride..When we are in the parking lot i will say damien find my car and when he does he sits by it,totally amazing to me..Yeah he is trying for the alpha,so i dont let him sleep with me anymore,i will wait til he is older...

heidiho
May 11th, 2004, 07:30 PM
P.S. he is 5 months may 20..

Spoiled
May 11th, 2004, 07:33 PM
Wow, smart guy! My mini Poodle is like that to. I read this book about obedience. It said to "You need to practice one command for at least a month before it is ingrained."

Forget it! The day I began owning my dog he knew the word 'sit'.

You may want to find a good tracking trainer that can help you start your dog into tracking. He sounds like he'd be good at it. There may be other activities like Agility, flyball, exc. that he would be good at. He sounds like he's great to work with.

heidiho
May 11th, 2004, 07:38 PM
I will tell you,he learned sit within a half hour,stay took maybe a day,and the car thing i just started doing a few days ago and last night is the first time he actually sat by the car,i about died...He is really smart i am amazed every day.I also will aly out like 6 toys and tell him to get the ball and he will sniff them all then get the ball everytime,he is incredible..Now if i can just get control of the food issue..
:o :o

Spoiled
May 12th, 2004, 10:47 AM
Wow, smart dog! You may want to enrole him in some activities like tracking and agility. He sounds like he'd be great at it.

Hand feed him or hold the food dish while you're feeding him. It works for my dog. Now he isn't as aggressive when he is being fed.

heidiho
May 12th, 2004, 10:52 AM
I have tried that,it makes it a little better,but last night when he was eating i tried to pet him,he growled and when i scolded him he peed,what does that mean???

Spoiled
May 12th, 2004, 11:00 AM
Well, I don't think it is a good idea to pet him while he's eating. Start by holding the dish, and touching him while he eats. When he does that with no growling, then you could place the food bowl on the floor, and pet him. But remember, if he is eating and you want to touch him, call him first so he knows that you are coming.

My dog used to bite me, and when I scruff shook him he submissive peed. It sounds like your dog is submissive peeing, and it also sounds like your going to have to try be more dominant than him. There was an alpha course someone gave me... I'll try to find it here.

heidiho
May 12th, 2004, 11:08 AM
Ok.i will try that...So is that a good thing he peed??

heidiho
May 12th, 2004, 11:09 AM
P.S. so what if i am holding bowl while he eats and he growls?? what do i do right then??

heidiho
May 12th, 2004, 01:39 PM
Ever find the info about alfha dog?/

Bill & Bob
May 12th, 2004, 02:32 PM
Youv'e already read it I think.
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=4206&page=1&pp=30

Alpha boot camp.

mona_b
May 12th, 2004, 02:35 PM
OK, I didn't read all of the replies because they didn't make much sence... but here are some sites that might help you:

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/
http://finographics.com/schutzhund/
http://www.dvgamerica.com/whatis.html
http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0035.htm
http://www.dvgamerica.com/

And for all you who don't know what you're talking about, I'll give you some information about the sport.

Schutzhund is a sport. It is not meant for protection dogs. Police dogs and Schutzhund dogs are quite different. Police dogs are working with the police tracking, protecting, and doing all kinds of dangorous work, that could mean death to even the most skilled dog. Schutzhund, on the other hand, is a sport that people do for fun, or competitions.

So, you guys, no offense, but please don't talk about stuff you know nothing about.

I was going to let this go,but I can't...

Spoiled,sorry to say,but doesn't look like you know much about it.

Police Dogs ARE SchH trained.As one who has a brother who is a cop for the K9-Unit,and I have a retired Police Dog,this I know.They start the SchH I at 18 months.SchH II at 19 months and SchH III at 20 months.THEN they start their Police training.They MUST pass their FF1,FF2 and BH to advance into SchH I...

Anyone else wanting to do SchH I must ALSO pass the same tests.

Sorry,but I had to set the record straight on this.

heidiho
May 12th, 2004, 02:42 PM
Yeah.. i did read that one..

Spoiled
May 12th, 2004, 10:08 PM
Yes, it may be the first step into police dog work, but I meant for just the average dog that wants to do it but is not going to be a police dog, it is for fun.

My dog was confused when he peed. He was trying to be dominant, and was thinking he was dominant, but when I got angry with him, he was submissive.

If he growls when you are holding the food bowl, there is nothing to stop you from pulling it away really quickly, and ignoring him after you hide it. After a bit, then give the food back. I have had to do this with my dog.

Here is the alpha boot camp information:
Alpha Boot Camp (http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm)

chico2
May 12th, 2004, 11:11 PM
Spoiled,I don't know if you read all of Heidihos posts,but she is talking about a PUPPY who have been without food for up to 10 hours,it hardly seems fair to him to take the food away from him and keep him waiting longer.There are other ways and calmer ways to teach your dog,I am sure.

heidiho
May 13th, 2004, 10:26 AM
For Mona,How many cups do you give your dog a day?? And i will have to say you are right i was not feeding him enough,i now know this is where his food aggression is coming from,last night was really really bad,i am going to leave him alone while he eats and i am feeding him however much he needs,like this morning i filled the bowl to where he leaves some left,to see how much he really needs,i dont care what the back of the food bag says it is not enough,not in the mood for any rude replys,so if you have nothing good to say,please dont reply..All i hear is dont let your dog get overweight,i have heard that so many times,so i was just trying to make sure i did not overfeed,well i paid the price,now i know...

Spoiled
May 13th, 2004, 10:39 AM
Some dogs just eat and eat and eat, but yours sounds like a dog that needs more food, because he is a growing puppy. If it is a puppy, you need to feed him two times a day.

heidiho
May 13th, 2004, 10:48 AM
Yeah,i do feed two times a day,i just think iwasnt feeding enough at those times,that is why he is so aggressive,i mean last night was downright scary,he flipped...So i am thinking of just letting him eat what he wants,at those two feedings,like this morning i filled the bowl and he didnt eat all of it.Iknow i created this horrendous proble,just hope i can kix it.. :( :(

mona_b
May 13th, 2004, 10:56 AM
You have to remember that my dogs are 8 years old now... :) ..And they don't eat as much as when they were pups.

Remember,they get canned also.As for the dry,they get about 4 1/2 cups.

And I still feed them 3x a day.They have an excellent weight..They have never been over weight.

The reason I give them both canned and dry is because they are prone to Bloat...And giving both also decreases the chances of it.

A friend of mine lost her St.Bernard to Bloat.That was during the $3.000 emergency surgery....

Hope this helps you a bit.

Question,has he always been aggressive with his food?

heidiho
May 13th, 2004, 11:10 AM
When i lived in kentucky,i never really tried to take his food,i just started trying to take his food a bout three weeks ago,then i realized i am not giving enough food,so i know i started this problem,here i am starving the poor thing then giving him his food then trying to take it,so yeah i would be pissed to,so about 4 days ago i started giving about 2 and a half cups at each feeding,well that is still not enough because last night he turned into the exorcist,i was actually really scared and could not get him to calm down,so this morning i just filled that bowl tothe top and he actually left some,so i took bowl and he was fine..I realize it must be because i am not feeding enough because when he drinks water i can pet him all i want and he is fine,well my theory is that is because there is never a shortage of water,so he is ok with me petting him while he drinks,i hope this is just because i wasnt feeding enough,and i also hope this damage can be reversed... :eek: :eek:

Spoiled
May 13th, 2004, 01:37 PM
When you walk past his bowl, toss a piece or two of kibble into it, so he gets the idea that you mean more food, not less.

heidiho
May 13th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Yeah,this morning when he was eating he got some on the floor so i picked it up and threw it in his bowl,but that is a good idea,tonight i will throw a treat in there while he is eating.. :o :o

mona_b
May 13th, 2004, 02:16 PM
Also,you need to be careful that he doesn't over eat.I mean make a pig out of himself when you fill the bowl.

What you can do is measure about 3 cups.And see how he does on that.

Have you thought about maybe giving him some canned food?

Also,not sure if I posted the Bloat link.But if I did,have you read it?If not,please do.There is very important information in it.

Bill & Bob
May 13th, 2004, 02:53 PM
One thing you might try is this...I bought this stuff called rollover. It's like a big sausage and you just cut a piece of it off. I dice the stuff up into really small pieces and mix it in with his dry. Bob loves the stuff.
But the part that I'm suggesting is this. When I mix the rollover in, I use my hands and knead the stuff through the dry so it's mixed well. Not exactly the most pleasant smell to have on your hands, but perhaps the smell of your hands on the food might reduce the anxiety of you touching his food because your smell is already there? Just a thought.
As for food Mona, when I got Bob the woman at the SPCA said I should be giving him about 4 cups, but for the first bit because he's about a year old I should give him 5 or 6. He's about 80lbs. and we get out for about 2.5 to 3 hours a day walking and running, which I think is pretty active (better be! I'm losing weight since I got the boy!).
I thought the 6 cups a day recommendation was a bit high, and he never finished it all throughout the day. I free feed him because he's not obsessed with food and won't wolf it all down in one sitting. Now I've reduced it down to about 4. Usually he finishes it all, but sometimes not. Depends on the day.

Any thoughts on this Mona? Enough, not enough? GSD, 1-2yr old, male, 80lb. Dear sweet Bob.

Lucky Rescue
May 13th, 2004, 03:01 PM
The amount to feed varies with the type of food given. In general, you will have to give MUCH more of cheap food, because it's full of indigestible fillers.

Premium food is much more digestible and you need not feed as much.

For example, if I fed my 70lb dog Purina, I would have to give her twice as much of it as of the Wellness I feed her.

Another benefit of premium food - way less poop!:D

heidiho
May 13th, 2004, 03:09 PM
Well i just switched him from s d dry,to nutro's new one for puppy,so he had not very solid poops first few days,but being as you have gs's if you say it is a good idea to put in some wet i will......i also bought him the food feeder that is higher off the floor so he doesnt strain neck i heard that will help with the vloat???? eating.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

melanie
May 13th, 2004, 06:19 PM
when you leave each day leave him something with his toys, do you know about denta bones or chew bones (edible ones not toys)?? have a look around, i use denta bones they keep her entertained for a little while and they clean her teeth and provide a snack. this may just provide a little fun for him throughout the day, i try to spread out a few little snacks with a denta bone so it last a little longer.
as he grows he needs more food, his body is growing at a huge rate so you need to keep up with the growth, mona gives great advice on feeding, please use it.

heidiho
May 13th, 2004, 06:27 PM
Yeah i think she does to,that is why i wanted her to tell me,plus she has german shephreds..I will get the denta bone also..Got him a kong ,kinda entertains him.He really loves chewy sticks....

mona_b
May 13th, 2004, 06:57 PM
Thanks guys...(blushes) then :D

heidiho,please do not elevate damiens dishes.What you have heard is not true.If anything,it adds to the Bloat...

MMMMMMMM,Rollover....They boys love them.But I only give it to them as treats..And the Dentabones are great.They come in S M L...Yukon and Tron get the Large.

Bill,since Bob is active,5-6 cups is fine since you free feed him.If he doesn't finish,that's fine.I leave the dry down all day.And sometimes I don't have to put more in till the next day.But that's because they get the can in the morning and can in the evening.So they just really have it as a snack... :D

Here is a link about Bloat....It says it happens to older dogs.But my friends St.Bernard,Emily was only 8 months...... :(

mona_b
May 13th, 2004, 07:20 PM
OOps,forgot the link.....LMAO

http://globalspan.net/bloat.htm

Bill & Bob
May 14th, 2004, 01:41 PM
Thanks Mona. Bob just doesn't go crazy over food. Not to say he doesn't try and jump to see what's in the bowl when I go to put it down, but after he's had some he usually leaves about half for later.

mona_b
May 14th, 2004, 01:57 PM
Your welcome..... :)

Have you read the link I posted?Even though Bob is a mix of Shepherd,he still will be prone to it.

Bill & Bob
May 14th, 2004, 02:45 PM
Wow. Good article. I've got some things to change in big Bob's life. He doesn't eat much until later in the day, so restricting exercise around then isn't a problem. We're pretty low key and mellow in the evenings. As well, I never would have thought about the water thing before or after eating. He almost always has a big drink after eating to wash things down. I'll have to hold that back for an hour from the looks of things. I've actually liked him having the drink until I read the article. Otherwise he tried to wipe his mug on me or whatever else is available. Not a fan of my pants smelling like nutranuggets, but we'll figure that one out.
A good friend of mine actually feeds her dogs lying down. She makes them lie down on their belly, and then places the food under their chin. They just lay their with their little yaps practically in the bowl until they are done.
I'll also have to consider giving him some canned food too rather than just his Nutranuggets. Tried that before, but it just gave him the runs. Can't hurt to mix it in with the dry though.

mona_b
May 14th, 2004, 05:32 PM
Yes,it is a good article.Very good information.

I have been taking all the precautions I can.It's the water that makes the dry food expand....As for the can,just mix a bit in his dry.See how he does with that.If no runs,then just add a bit more of the can and less of the dry.Once again,wait to see if it goes through him..You can continue to keep the mix.Or you can make it that it's just the canned,and you can leave out the dry also for him.That part is up to you.... :D

melanie
May 14th, 2004, 06:35 PM
thanks mona,that is really helpful, as i said i had never heard of bloat before you told me. charlie is a totally food obsessed girl, she loves the stuff. if i have food i can get her to do absolutly anything. so she scoffs her breakfast and has for the past 8 years (used to live with other dogs, may be a reason for it) she is a pig with any food. well sometimes when she scoffs it fast, she will finish and you will hear her burp, it sounds very human and is grose if she does it in your face, but she has never had bloat (never heard of it before but she has never had those type of problems), it is just a burp and a smile and off she goes to nap. so im just thinking it is like a human reaction, if i eat fast i burp too. but it is really grose and embarassing when she does it in front of guests :o :p :eek:

mona_b
May 14th, 2004, 11:09 PM
Yup,that could be the reason.

How many times a day is she fed?...If only once,then what you should do is break it down to 2-3 feedings...This would stop her from wolfing her food down...Just a suggestion....... :D

Bill & Bob
May 15th, 2004, 01:20 AM
It's funny, but feeding and pooping of these wonderful fellas and fellers is one of the major predictors of their mood and health.
Bob only get's burpy in the morning when we're about to leave for our first wander. That's when he eats the last little bit he's left the night before.

Anyhoo, good info. I told a few friends of mine about it who feed their kids primarily dry. They mix some too, but hadn't heard of bloat before. Found the article a good read.

To tell ya the truth, the first time I washed out Bob's food bowl, there were a few nuggets of the dry crusted on the bowl. When I put the bowl in the sink to soak it, the nuggets swelled in the water to a significant size beyond what they were dry. I was pretty surprised since it wouldn't fit down the drain right away and thought that in Bob's belly it wouldn't be a much different situation. Much more thought and respect for the feeding process now.

mona_b
May 15th, 2004, 07:40 AM
Gotta love the burps.LOL....Not sure who louder,hubby or the dogs.... :D


What you noticed with the water and left over kibble is what happens in the dogs tummy as soon as they have a drink.... :(

I take all precautions with my boys.And I try and educate people of the seriousness of Bloat.My friend who lost her St.Bernard to it was devestated.And her 3 young boys just couldn't understand what happened to their sweet Emily.

Thank you for sharing this article with your friends.... :)

Catt31
May 15th, 2004, 10:15 AM
OMG!! I never even thought of that for Brick! He has 2 of the breeds at risk in him!!! We figured out the no food before or after exercise since he puked enough to fill a bath tub, but the water and the mixing food never even dawned on me!! Sheesh!!! Guess we will be making some changes too!!! I'd heard of bloat but since I've only ever owned little dogs, it never was really a concern. Now that I have a large breed, we need to be more aware of things that affect bigger dogs!! Thanks Mona Balona!!! :D

Bill...Brick and Bob sound sooooooo very similar; play/walk habits, eating habits, peeing on people, etc. Every time you mention something about Bob, I think "OMG that is TOTALLY Brick too"...how odd eh???

GO FLAMES GO!!!!!!!!!!

Bill & Bob
May 15th, 2004, 06:09 PM
Well, yeah, funny that they have such similar behaviours. If you come up with solutions to some of the ones that aren't so good, you be sure to tell me about them and I'll be sure to tell you when I come up with something. Especially the peeing on people's legs. Ok?

And I think we'll just continue to laugh at the ones that continue to be funny in a good funny way.

Took Bob out for a walk down by the waterfront today. They've got this little dog park down there. Let Bob and his buddy offleash to have a good run and stretch out their legs since we were replacing our regular walk to the regular park with this adventure. There's also a pond nearby where Canada geese, and ducks hang out in.
Guess who decided to show me how much he likes water and the birds? Yeesh. Water not pretty = Bob kind of smelly. Yeesh. His poor buddy, who's owner just shampood her not long ago decided to follow along too.
Again, not pretty. Very funny though. Quite a comedian that Bob.

On a more serious note, he did take a couple of gulps of the water. Hope the bird poop in the water won't give him the 'trots' later on today.

Bill & Bob
May 15th, 2004, 06:09 PM
And yes, go flames go.... Please.

melanie
May 15th, 2004, 06:53 PM
bill dont worry about the bird poo, most dogs love poo and anything stinky. charlie will eat any poo around, esp the cockatoo poo at the park, it is left by big mobs so you can imagine there is lots. nothing more grose than a little girl coming up to me and trying to lick me when she has a tounge full of cow poo. at one stage i thought it was because something was missing in diet but vet did tests and said that charlie just liked it.
and as far as having a pretty clean dog, well guarenteed everytime i wash her she will go roll on a dead fish or something, and when i tell her she is disgusting, well she looks just plain insulted, 'dont you love my scent, i did it just for you' :rolleyes:.
with charlie i would like to give her 2 feeds a day but -
one- breakfast is fed for convenience- when i got charlie i was very young (19yrs) and spent vast amounts of time at the pub :eek: , well in a drunken stupor it is hard to remember who is ment to be fed and when. so i made it breakfast to guarentee her feed (i know it sounds horrid, but i had never had a dog and didnt know better, it was a huge learning curve, oh and she was often at the pub with me, she is a great pub dog, jsut hangs out and is no trouble).
two- i worry that she is so into her routine after 8 years that i just couldnt break it, and if i took any food out of breakfast she would probably take my leg off :p . she is soo food driven that she really turns it on in the morning if she isnt fed.
but i do give a reasonably sized snack in the afternoons so im thinking if i just replace some snacks with a little more normal food this could be a little afternoon meal. her weight is such a problem, literallay can put on a kilogram in a week, her meal size is adequte (and she is on diet food or lite food for older dogs) so i need to avoid feeding too much. but i will try a little something in the afternooon and see if she likes it or if her weight increases(and i dont spend my time at the pub anymore, which is good for dog but bad as well, she used to get lots of food off the blokes at the pub :D :p ;) ).
bill- also remember rice and pasta swell alot too so please make sure they are cooked properly before feeding, funny my mum would never let us eat raw spagetti for the swelling fact alone, she was a real stick in the mud :D :D

heidiho
May 17th, 2004, 10:42 AM
Hey!! Read the article,one day i will get all this right,seems like the bowl elevated would be better,less strain on neck?? Had another issue with food this weekend,he was knawing on a pig ear,let me pet him the first time,but later in the day he growled like he does when eating his food..WHY??? I dont get it,he is the sweetest dog every other time,would he ever turn on me?? I really dont think he would,but this food thing is crazy,do i just accpet it and never tyr to pet him again when he is eating something??? :(

mona_b
May 17th, 2004, 01:44 PM
Don't worry,he won't strain his neck...My boys never had a problem straining theirs..... :D

When you look under the Precautions,the first thing it says is "do not use elevated food bowls"...

heidido,the only thing I can suggest is,talk to the trainer who is helping you.You do need to nip this in the bud.He is still a puppy and you can break him of it.Have him there with you,and have him show you how to corrct it.And enroll damien in puppy classes.Like I mentioned before,this way he is socialized with other pups.How's the leash training coming along?They will help you with that too..... :)

heidiho
May 17th, 2004, 01:48 PM
He is doing pretty good on the leash training,i mean he is a very smart dog,trainer will be over tomorrow night,so we will work on this food thing,it just blows me away that he did it with this pig ear,i just cant believe it,cause he is the sweetest dog with me and so protective,just makes me sad that we have this problem,i worry that what happens if he is always this way with food?? Then what do i do?? :( :(

mona_b
May 17th, 2004, 02:03 PM
Try this..... :)







With older puppies that have shown aggression and been allowed to get away with it, (i.e. the pup/dog growls over the food bowl and the owner backs off and leaves the room) the above technique may not work and may escalate aggression. The dog has already learned that he is in charge. In this case, desensitizing around the food bowl may be the only way to go. The program should be used in conjunction with obedience training to gain control in other areas. This desensitizing is a good idea with any dog that will be around young children.
To use this technique, it is better to feed meals rather than free choice. For added treats you must have things that the dog prefers over his regular food. Leftovers will do, meat from cooked chicken legs, liver. Whatever the dog really likes.
Here is the game plan. Feed the dog a slightly smaller than usual meal of his regular dog food. Put the bowl down, walk away and let him start eating. Take a piece of the treat, walk to within several feet of the dog and toss the treat into the bowl. Walk away and let the dog finish his meal. Pick up the bowl. Let him see that you are the one who controls his food.
The next meal, make two trips to add treats to his food bowl. If there is no defensive reaction, you can likely go a step closer to the bowl the next time. You will gradually get closer & closer to the bowl each time you add a treat. You should be able to also stay longer before walking away.
Don't make a big deal out of it and make sure the treats go in the bowl rather than directly into the dog's mouth. It is not necessary to do this with every meal, just often enough so the dog begins to look forward to your advance on the food bowl. By the time you are finished, you should be able to pick up the bowl, add extras to the meal and set the bowl back down. All with no protests from the dog.
When the dog is comfortable with this routine, you can divide his meal into several bowls. Put a chair close to where he will be fed. Put the first bowl down several feet away from the chair. Sit down and hold the other bowl(s). When the first bowl is finished, put the next one down closer to you. Work up to the point where you can hold the bowl in your lap and the dog will quietly eat.

This won't work with every dog but it can reduce fear in the dog who is growling because it is nervous and reinforce your contol of the food with the more dominant dog. If it isn't working, try to get a local trainer to help you.

heidiho
May 17th, 2004, 02:19 PM
Thank you,thank you,i have started just walking up and throwing in a treat,i am gonna print this out and do it exactly,your awesome,i hope it works... ;) ;)

mona_b
May 17th, 2004, 02:30 PM
AWWWWWWWW Tanks...... :)

I'm just trying to help the best I can..

Just remember to be patient with him...And praise him..... :D

heidiho
May 17th, 2004, 02:35 PM
I actually think maybe i am spoiling him to much..Maybe i do just need to not bother and pet him while he is eating something i dont know// I am always hugging on him and kissing him,maybe i need to cut back a little,like pay just a little less attention to him.Maybe he just wants a little peace from me when he is eating.. :eek: :eek: