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Am I Missing Something???

luckypenny
June 29th, 2007, 09:43 PM
:sad: :frustrated: Penny snapped at me tonight. We were at my BIL's in the yard...neighbor's cute but little yappy dog came to the fence and Penny went nuts trying to bite the dog through it. Now she's usually very good with dogs that approach her calmly but is terrible with dogs that charge her yapping. I told her "quiet" & "come" but she was too focussed on the other dog. So, I went to her, gently tried to take her collar to pull her away. Well, she turned her head to snap at me. I calmly took a few steps back, called her to me again, and then successfully took her collar and brought her further away until the neighbor took his dog inside.

Penny, for the most part, always listens to me. I understand that this was redirected aggression and I had made an error this evening. Could this redirected aggression have anything to do with her not fully respecting me? We've been working very hard with this barrier aggression problem and have seen much improvement over the last few weeks. And, I know, I should have left her lead on...I totally forgot.

We practice NILF and have incorporated it into our daily lives. The question I have is, am I missing something? Is there something I'm forgetting in order for her to listen and respond to me more quickly? Anyone else ever have this problem?

Frenchy
June 29th, 2007, 09:47 PM
LP , I'm sure she was too excited , that's all. You work so much with Lucky and Penny, and they do listen very well to you. I can't see how you could have done anything wrong , her ADD mut have kicked in because of the little yappy dog !

meg4050
June 29th, 2007, 09:49 PM
Hi Lucky,
My Barkley did that a week or two ago when a large dog we've never seen before came to our back gate - he started barking and when my dad tried to pull him away he snapped at him. Conveniently, we had a vet appointment the following day and I mentioned this. He advised me that he's seen in lots of dog when they get going like this it may simply be their way of protecting you and snapping is their way of telling you to back off and let them deal with it. Turns out the pup is new to the neighbourhood and now that they've gotten better acquainted, he's fine. Not sure if this is applicable to your situation but thought it might help!
-Megan

Frenchy
June 29th, 2007, 09:53 PM
their way of protecting you and snapping is their way of telling you to back off and let them deal with it.

That makes sense to me.

So Penny was only trying to protect her mom and she deserves a cookie. :dog:

pags
June 29th, 2007, 09:55 PM
Aw LP - I'm so sorry.. I know how upsetting such a thing is... But I agree with Frenchy.

We have been working very hard with Judge since the storm -- and consulting a behaviorist via telephone until we can find one close enough to us to work with us privately... He's suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. (Yes! Dogs suffer from this, too!) And he has become territorially aggressive as a result.

I had the same encounter with Judge twice previously where I brushed his back while he was focused on some perceived threat and he turned to snap. I was devastated, honestly... Cause Judge is SUCH an obedient dog. The behaviorist told me to simply make sure --I-- have his attention before I put any part of myself in his space when he's acting like that. She said basically .. to him.. it's like the little yapping dog is all around him... everywhere... his territory is invaded... so the touch on the back or at the collar is a threat.. somehow from that little yapping dog.. Because he's just not THINKING. As soon as we get them to THINK... then we have control again.

I guess the trick is to divert their attention back to us BEFORE they go into berserk mode, right?

Hugs!

luckypenny
June 29th, 2007, 10:11 PM
He advised me that he's seen in lots of dog when they get going like this it may simply be their way of protecting you and snapping is their way of telling you to back off and let them deal with it.

I thought of that too but I think it implies that she's pack leader, at least in a situation such as this :shrug: .

Turns out the pup is new to the neighbourhood and now that they've gotten better acquainted, he's fine. Not sure if this is applicable to your situation but thought it might help!
-Megan

I don't think so. Not with little dogs anyways. About a month ago during a walk, a woman had her wee dog on an extendable leash and this dog wouldn't stop charging Penny, barking at her the whole time. Penny went straight for her stomach, teeth out and all. I managed to pull and hold her right next to me while trying to calmly insist that the woman get her dog away immediately (she just stood there and watched :frustrated: ), so I had to drag Penny away. I've pretty much made up my mind that my dogs just won't directly meet other dogs on walks.

JanM
June 29th, 2007, 10:13 PM
I had a situation with Amber where she would go berserk if another dog went by the house - I haven't been bitten but the principle is the same. I contacted a dog behaviourist and he told me I should get between Amber and the other dog, face Amber and calmly talk her out of her frenzy. It's worked and she no longer growls and barks at dogs that go by the house.

I use this same technique whenever Amber shows signs of being unfriendly.

luckypenny
June 29th, 2007, 10:20 PM
I've consulted a behaviorist/trainer as well and in our yard, I no longer even have to be near her when she gets out of control at the fence (we've since doubled it up because she had begun to dig under it). I just call her to the door and she comes running straight in to the house and usually goes into her crate until she's calm (just a few seconds really). However, she does show this redirected aggression towards Lucky if he's at the fence with her.

I guess tonight was just a setback and I, of course, made a mistake by trying to take her collar :o . I was just afraid that she would manage to hurt this little dog.

hazelrunpack
June 29th, 2007, 10:28 PM
Aggression issues can be so hard to deal with. Setbacks are a part of the process. :grouphug: You just gotta persevere...

What does Lucky do when Penny redirects at him?

luckypenny
June 29th, 2007, 10:28 PM
I guess the trick is to divert their attention back to us BEFORE they go into berserk mode, right?

Absolutely. She just happened to notice the other dog before I did.

JanM, when on leash, it's physically impossible for me to get between her and another dog if she lunging. She's just too strong. I quickly shorten her leash and continue walking. If the dog is within a 'safe' distance, I have her sit between my legs (easier for me to control her in this position) and tell her how good she is if she remains calm, sometimes rewarding her with treats as well. If she can't remain calm, I switch directions and often have to pull her along. Is there another method you use to actually get between the dogs that I haven't figured out yet :o ?

luckypenny
June 29th, 2007, 10:37 PM
What does Lucky do when Penny redirects at him?

First, Lucky will bark and pull really hard towards the other dog as well. But in his case, it's because he just wants to meet the other dog. We haven't allowed it for a long time already during our walks; dogs can just be unpredictable and I'm not willing to take any chances.

As for when Penny redirects at him, if it's the case of another dog being nearby, he often darts around her, but by this time, I've already called them and he's usually the first to come in the house. If she redirects at him because he's chasing a squirrel, etc., he just sort of gets nasty right back at her and she's the one who usually backs down somewhat. But by the time this has taken place, the squirrel or other little critter has already made it's escape so the two of them calm down instantly.

hazelrunpack
June 29th, 2007, 11:00 PM
So she backs down when Lucky challenges back? That's actually a good thing.

:o I'll tell you what Penny needs--a dominant, alpha dog, big enough to keep Penny in her place but confident enough to just 'discipline' and then step back. We had a setter with an aggression problem once. Took us forever to find a behaviorist who was willing to help us (everyone told us to have him put down). Finally got him sort of under control, but it was still a struggle.

Then we inherited Priscilla, who could only be described as "butch". She'd lift her leg to pee. Alpha. Dominant. But confident so she wouldn't take any guff but wouldn't initiate trouble.

Priscilla took over watching our aggressive boy. The second she spotted trouble brewing in his body language (and she could spot it so much earlier than we could, being as naturally well-versed in "dog" as she was) she'd lord it over him and make sure he knew his place. We never had any trouble with him again and he lived to a respectably old 10 1/2 years. Thanks to Priscilla, he got 7 1/2 more years than all those behaviorists told us he'd have. :shrug:

So now we've just got to find a Priscilla for Penny. :D Good thing you freed up all that space by throwing out your hubby's stuff! Now you have room for that third dog! :p

luckypenny
June 29th, 2007, 11:10 PM
So she backs down when Lucky challenges back?

Only when there's "prey" around. Not when it's a situation of another dog. She does manage to bully him at times and he often comes running to me or goes running into the hedges when she just won't give up.

I have too much to work on with these two before permanently getting another dog. I had thought of a semi-senior female but not sure when would be the right time.

Funny, now that you mention this, it made me think of the time we went to Frenchy's when Bree was there as well. Penny was not friendly with Bree at all in the beginning (she's like this with small dogs, young dogs, and with submissive dogs). Actually, she was quite nasty at first and wouldn't even let Bree approach her. But with Nelly, it was the opposite. She wasn't quite sure what to make of her but Nelly definately had the upper paw with her. Nelly even had her on her back quite a few times and no aggressive reaction from Penny at all. Sam, Bailey, and Molly 2, didn't elicit an aggressive response from her either.

Frenchy
June 29th, 2007, 11:25 PM
So you need to adopt a dominant female great dane :D

hazelrunpack
June 29th, 2007, 11:38 PM
There ya go! Nelly's your girl! :p

Isn't that interesting, though, how different personalities can elicit different responses from the same dog? Why do you think Nelly had the upper paw? More confident? Just bigger? Hard-to-read body language because of her background, so Penny deferred to her rather than take a chance?

Sometimes I'd give my eye teeth and one kidney to know what it is they're really thinking! :D

Frenchy
June 29th, 2007, 11:52 PM
Yep , hard to understand sometimes. Nelly isn't dominant with the fuzzbutts here. But last week when she was running with Bree, she kept growling, I was watching her very carefully , trying to understand her body langage, was she too excited ? Annoyed ? She wasn't mean to Bree at all tough. But I think it restrained Bree to play more with Nelly.

Sam always respected Bailey and Daisy, but when a new foster comes in , if they get excited in the living room while he's on the couch , or in the kitchen while I'm preparing their meals, he will growl and show teeth to the newbies. He never did anything more, I know because one dog (at a friend's house) once got jealous and attacked him, we had to separate them because Sam just didn't fight back enough. He's just a grumpy old man. :shrug:

Frenchy
June 29th, 2007, 11:53 PM
Sorry LP , that was :offtopic:

luckypenny
June 30th, 2007, 12:08 AM
Size doesn't intimidate Penny. She met my other BIL's huge male 1 year old German Shepherd and bullied him immediately (he is a gentle giant). She would not allow him to initiate play with her, and would interrupt if Cody and Lucky began to play :shrug: . I've seen this behavior with older, more mature dogs. They sort of act like referees. This is how Penny acts. Nelly, I think, is certainly not a bully but does seem very confident around other dogs.

TeriM
June 30th, 2007, 01:10 AM
Penny sounds kinda like Lucy. Lucy has zero tolerance for small agressive dogs and can also be leash agressive (unpredictable) although I know that she would never turn on me. She is definately the dominant type. We had an "off leash incident" a while back with a little dog that turned out rather badly when all of a sudden the little dog jumped and snarled at Lucy. Since then I no longer take any chances and put her right back on leash (no more benefit of the doubt) at any potential conflicts. I recently switched her to a halti while walking. She doesn't pull at all but by using the halti I now have way more control and can prevent the agression from starting. This has become more important recently because Riley (who loves and tolerates all dogs when alone) feels the need to get involved when Lucy has her hissy fit. She is now eleven and I'm not sure why I've only thought about the halti thing now :rolleyes: but it has helped a ton.

JanM
June 30th, 2007, 12:01 PM
JanM, when on leash, it's physically impossible for me to get between her and another dog if she lunging. She's just too strong. I quickly shorten her leash and continue walking. If the dog is within a 'safe' distance, I have her sit between my legs (easier for me to control her in this position) and tell her how good she is if she remains calm, sometimes rewarding her with treats as well. If she can't remain calm, I switch directions and often have to pull her along. Is there another method you use to actually get between the dogs that I haven't figured out yet :o ?[/QUOTE]

Hmm - I've never been in the on-leash and get-between situation so I can't answer to that - If anyone else has, I'd sure like to hear how they handle it because, while it hasn't happened with Amber - it sure could! It's always been in the yard or in the house with her and I just get between her and the fence or her and window and it's worked..