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Whining Lab- Encouragment

want4rain
June 29th, 2007, 10:50 AM
i love him, he is so smart and funny. right now he isnt being either of those things. we ahve never let him in the house when he whined or barked (unless it was inaudible through the door and it was on accident), we leave a bell on the door so he can jingle it... we have had the bell since he was a few weeks old.... he knows its used to get out to get water, get out to go potty and to get out to go play.... but he just refuses to ring the bell to get INSIDE the house!!! he has been whining for 15 minutes at the door now and NOT even accidentally jingled the bell. i tried putting a dab of peanut butter on it.... good grief!!! we are starting training classes in a few weeks. *sigh* we have done pretty well with him so far without them but had to wait for a point where we could afford the classes. we ahve had a few surprises to deal with concerning our home and we couldnt justify spending even a few hundred bucks on training classes when it looked like we would ahve to spend another few thousand on our crawlspace.... on top of the few thousand we have already sunk into it and our HVAC.... yep, im whining.


how do you teach a dog to bark when he only makes noises at inappropriate times?? ive been woofing at him a bunch. :laughing:

-ashley:yell:

jessi76
June 29th, 2007, 11:47 AM
first of all, I think it's unacceptable to make your dog ring a bell to go OUTSIDE to get a drink of water. water is a necessary element that should be available at ALL TIMES, inside and out. your dog shouldn't have to ring a bell to be let out to get a drink.

how old is this dog? why is the bell so important? putting peanut butter on a bell is not the way to go about TEACHING the dog to use it. in teaching new "tricks" - you need to break the trick down into baby steps - teaching and rewarding along the way. then you string together the steps into the formed behavior - slowly weening off any food rewards.

my dog didn't just learn "down-stay" one day by putting peanut butter on the floor. he learned to watch me, then to sit, then to go down to the floor, then to stay in that position. strung together the end result was a down-stay.

want4rain
June 29th, 2007, 12:11 PM
first of all, I think it's unacceptable to make your dog ring a bell to go OUTSIDE to get a drink of water. water is a necessary element that should be available at ALL TIMES, inside and out. your dog shouldn't have to ring a bell to be let out to get a drink.

how old is this dog? why is the bell so important? putting peanut butter on a bell is not the way to go about TEACHING the dog to use it. in teaching new "tricks" - you need to break the trick down into baby steps - teaching and rewarding along the way. then you string together the steps into the formed behavior - slowly weening off any food rewards.

my dog didn't just learn "down-stay" one day by putting peanut butter on the floor. he learned to watch me, then to sit, then to go down to the floor, then to stay in that position. strung together the end result was a down-stay.

ok, lets look at this from a few different angles-

i never said he doesnt have water available inside. i said he knows to ring the bell to get out to get water.

i also would like to know what my other options are since a bell is so unacceptable or unimportant?? would i rather he bark to get let out or scratch or jump or whine?? the bell was to alert us he needed some reason to go outside. what are soem other methods people use besides a doggy door for their canine partner to get in and our of the house?? we refuse to just leave him outside until we 'feel like' letting him in. we live in a hot and humid state, that is unacceptable to just leave him outside. it is there as a way for him to let us know he wants in is needed. if that is so offensive to you, give us a reasonable logical DIFFERENT alternative.

now having taught him to use the bell to get OUT of the house by profusely rewarding him when he jingled it with praise and being let out, we figured this method would work with gettign him to use the bell to get INSIDE the house also. the peanut butter was geared towards getting him to even curiously nudge the bell in any way shape or form so we could reward him with praise and being let into the house.


now that that is cleared up, if there is any farther encouragement, advice or whatever... please do it without being offensive, defensive or any other fensive. constructive criticism goes a long way.

-ashley

jessi76
June 29th, 2007, 12:26 PM
we leave a bell on the door so he can jingle it... we have had the bell since he was a few weeks old.... he knows its used to get out to get water,

you're the one who stated this, not me.

I didn't say it was unacceptable or unimportant to use the bell. I asked YOU why it was important.

I let my dog out when he asks, and back in when he either asks, or if he cannot be supervised (I have a fence jumper, so mine needs supervision)

I'd teach the command TOUCH instead of bribing the dog w/ peanut butter.

to teach my own dog TOUCH, I used a margarine tub TOP. held it in front of him and as soon as his nose made contact with it, i clicked and treated him. slowly moved the margarine top further away from him - repeating the command, and learning along the way. I eventually replaced my hand and other objects with the margarine top. I can hold my hand out and say TOUCH or point to an object and instruct TOUCH, and he will touch it w/ his nose or paw.

want4rain
June 29th, 2007, 12:46 PM
hold on a sec, im not totally done with this whole 'water outside' thing.

what IF Misters water was only outside??

lets look at this again-

take your average working home with a dog. Fido.

Fido owns a few people but they both have to work two full time jobs to pay the mortgage and all that good stuff. say they stagger their schedule even so Fido is only kenneled 6 hours out of the day instead of the '9to5' w/commute he could be in some situations.

now do they leave water in the kennel? maybe, maybe not. might get turned over and hten Fido is left sitting in his water for part of the day. they ahve a dog walker come once a day?? so he only goes 3 hours without water and peeing. thats pretty positive for most homes where everyone works or goes to school


our house on the other hand, i am a stay at home mom. Mister rings to get out at the very least every 20 to 30 minutes. so my dog has the opportunity to not only get water every 20 to 30 minutes but can do so whenever he chooses. he is kenneled MAX 2 hours out of the week besides when we eat or are sleeping.

so say i DID only keep his water outside?? who has the short end of the stick??

now i will say he is taken away from his water through out parts of his day. im sorry i have a 15mo old son who really likes Misters bowls. i *refuse* to put a water bowl in the living room where Jeffrey plays (in it) so Mister can have water without having to be asked to be let into the other room.

where do you draw the line?


about the butter tub, thanks, i can use that. hadnt thought of it although im not sure how we can apply that in a different way than praising him when he rings the bell, which will work... just not instantly. while im a pretty patient person, whining is just one of those things. everybody has them. *sigh* i just needed to hear someone say-
'all dogs do this whining thing, he wont turn into a crazy barking whining monster as long as you keep on top of it and teach him an alternative to it. i taught my dog to bark by (insert really cool method to teach dogs to bark {and thus NOT to bark} here).'

-ashley

jessi76
June 29th, 2007, 01:08 PM
I can only speak for myself, but my dog if crated, my dog has a dog-water bottle, so no spillage occurs AND he has access to water. he has a water bowl on the kitchen floor, and another outside in the shade. he is home in the morning from 7:30-noon. my fiance comes home at noon, and takes our dog to work with him until 5pm. (also has multiple water bowls at work).

there are many solutions to a dog being left alone or not during the day. i'm not going to debate every hypothetical situation with you. some use dog walkers, some dogs stay home, others go to daycare, or go to work with the owner, different dogs, different situations, all possible.

i never said NOT to praise the dog when he rings the bell... perhaps you're just not understanding my point... teach the dog to ring the bell in BABY STEPS. teach TOUCH FIRST. then apply "touch" to the bell once it's a learned behavior... treat, praise, or both! any positive encouragement helps to learn.

BTW, I taught my dog to speak also. teach speak and QUIET in the same manner. baby steps with positive reinforcement along the way.

once you start obedience training you will learn techniques to teach commands.

want4rain
June 29th, 2007, 01:42 PM
"i never said NOT to praise the dog when he rings the bell... perhaps you're just not understanding my point... teach the dog to ring the bell in BABY STEPS. teach TOUCH FIRST. then apply "touch" to the bell once it's a learned behavior... treat, praise, or both! any positive encouragement helps to learn."

*blinks* thank you. i think perhaps thats the fundamental thing we are missing is the ability to see what baby steps are for a dog. children on the other hand, learn far slower than a dog and it is second nature to teach in baby steps.

my point about the water is only this- things are different for everyone. if the decision to put his water outside only was one we made, please ask why and if he still has free access to it... even if that free access is ringing a bell first.

im making such a big deal about this because we talked about leaving his water outside only. 'His' area is the kitchen. it has a laminate flooring in it that can NOT have water on it... as in i do damage when i mop it with a swiffer kind of 'not have water on it', the edges of each board are curling from mopping. at first we tried a pad, then a rug, then a plastic mat.... each of those he started to rip up... we didnt feel his age was err, ready??? maybe?? to learn NOT to chew carpets (being as he IS still a puppy and chewing everything!). in the battle, we choose our fights and the carpets were somethign we could take away instead of NO! him to death on. so now his water bowl migrates. we try to minimize the damage to the floor by wiping up after him and by moving the bowl around to different areas to spread out the damage. its not much but hey, things add up over time. BTW he is an 8 month old, 80lb 3/4lab 1/4chow mix. you can imagine the kind of oceans his mouth holds. :laughing:

anyways, we arent doing the best out there, but we are doing the best we can until we can learn the best out there, not just for our pets but for our children, ourselves and our home too. we might have a good deal on our plate right now but hey, its life and you learn to deal with it. all im asking is for you and others to give me and anyone else a little credit before making assumptions and jumping on my(or their) case. we are all here to better ourselves and others too. not even YOU live in an ideal world or act in the ideal way. please dont judge others who dont either.

-ashley

jessi76
June 29th, 2007, 02:02 PM
don't give us half the story, then get mad when someone responds to that one half. you said you trained the dog to ring a bell to go out for water. you never OFFERED info about having water inside until I responded about it.

I don't CARE where you keep your water or what kind of floor you have. the point is that water is a basic necessity for an animal, and any animal should have FREE ACCESS to it. not having to ask for it, ring a bell to get to it, etc... it should be readily available. you can debate and agrue all you like about location, as long as it's available without having to do tricks to get to it is all I was getting at.

if you have it available in the house also, then BRAVO!

pags
June 29th, 2007, 02:06 PM
Er... I just wanted to step in and actually lend some encouragement since you're having a bad dog day. (Before anybody gets upset about use of 'bad' and 'dog' in the same sentence... I am simply using it in the same way I would say I'm having a 'bad hair day'... Not that my hair is intrinsically evil.. or that there is something it won't do without proper training, etc. Just that it's a bad dog day. Those happen.) I completely understand. We woke up this morning to Cosmo just not having any idea what he wanted... and not wanting to do anything the usual way either. To me it's like one of those days when the perfectly potty trained child decides not to use the potty.. all day long.... Who knows why it happens.. But it sure is frustrating. Hugs.

I also am struggling to understand the enormously big deal about the location of the water bowl. Very often my dogs water is outside more than inside... Also - their place in the house when we aren't spending quality time together is in the kitchen. However - with all the kids in the house - the water bowl on the floor in ANY location indoors during the day is not practical... I put down water for them several times a day and take it up after they drink. Other than that.. their main constant source of water is outside on the porch. When they want to drink in between regular waterings -- they go to the door. No biggie. They aren't left alone with no water. I'm HERE. And it sounds like it's much the same arrangement at your house, want4rain. So I get it.

Also -- we have started training with a bell to go in and out because our doors were being mangled by scratches. That's the 'I want in' scratching... they never scratch to go out for whatever reason (possibly cause they don't have to? Cause we notice when they wait at the door much faster than when they're waiting to come back in?). I don't know why -- but the same thing applies with the bell.. they ring to go out and still body-slam the door to come in?? So if you figure this one out before me -- please let me know. :p (I'll do the same for you!)

Finally -- okay I'm being long-winded... But here goes: Our dog Judge was an obnoxious whiner. We were told to teach him to 'speak' to stop this. We used the hand signal that I am not sure I can explain here... but you basically sort of cup your hand as if it's a mouth -- an open dog snout... and you put it in front of his nose... pull it away quickly while closing your hand (sort of mimicking a dog snapping his mouth closed or .. well.. barking) and say 'speak'. He picked it up very quickly and will speak on the hand signal alone now. What happened THEN though... is he stopped whining altogether and substituted incredibly LOUD barking. So we taught him to 'whisper' and to 'talk'. Whisper was done with the same hand signal only.. uh.. smaller.. and slower... like slow motion... and by treating as his barks got progressively softer. He will now bark without any sound coming out at all other than a rush of air on that command. Talk was similar but just gives him an outlet for his bizarre collie 'talking'... (we're working on teaching him sentences..... lol)
All of these really helped STOP the whining... He now talks, speaks, or whispers to get our attention... SO we're working through the same commands with Cosmo.

Okay I'm done now. Good luck getting through your day!!

luckypenny
June 29th, 2007, 02:31 PM
...Also -- we have started training with a bell to go in and out because our doors were being mangled by scratches. That's the 'I want in' scratching... they never scratch to go out for whatever reason (possibly cause they don't have to? Cause we notice when they wait at the door much faster than when they're waiting to come back in?). I don't know why -- but the same thing applies with the bell.. they ring to go out and still body-slam the door to come in?? So if you figure this one out before me -- please let me know. :p (I'll do the same for you!)...

:laughing: Both my dogs use the bell to go out, and neither use it to come back in :laughing: . Lucky will sometimes scratch to come in and Penny sometimes whines too :D For Lucky, we got this contraption that you place over a door, sort of like a grill, that will prevent damage to it (found at a hardware store). For Penny, well, I just ignore her and when she stops, I let her in. I try to avoid letting her even begin to whine so as soon as I see her running up the steps, I open the door. Both dogs have been taught to sit/stay before exiting or entering the house, so more often then not, this is what they do whether or not I'm coming and going as well. The scratching and whining only begin if they've had to wait too long.

Ok, all this to say that I really don't leave them out for more than a few minutes and only when I'm able to keep an eye on them through the windows (they're also open so I can hear if they start to bark). I just found this to be the easiest way to avoid any bad habits from forming. Other than that, I go out with them at least 3 times per day for walks, outings, and playtime so they're just too tired when in the house to bother constantly asking to be let in and out all day long.

Don't know if this would help at all; prevention is just so much easier than trying to correct an unwanted behavior.

pags
June 29th, 2007, 02:42 PM
For Penny, well, I just ignore her and when she stops, I let her in. I try to avoid letting her even begin to whine so as soon as I see her running up the steps, I open the door. Both dogs have been taught to sit/stay before exiting or entering the house, so more often then not, this is what they do whether or not I'm coming and going as well. The scratching and whining only begin if they've had to wait too long.


NODNOD LP -- very true. We do try to ignore obnoxious body-slamming and let the guys in when they settle and wait patiently... And it has helped a lot. (There are fewer perfect dog body-prints on the french door glass....) I have to admit.. I take full responsibility for such obnoxious habits. If *I* am prompt and on the ball... then it just doesn't happen.

I also keep them supervised outside -- and USUALLY go out with them... However, there are those odd times when I have to leave them for a few minutes cause someone can't find a shoe and the phone is ringing and there are people with Bibles at the door wanting to discuss my salvation. *giggle*

I think the reason I wanted the bell to work -- and possibly (I'm guessing) the reason want4rain would like for it to work (tell me if I'm wrong!) is for those moments when they can make a loud enough signal for us to know IMMEDIATELY that they're ready... so that we CAN immediately let them in and reinforce the training.

I've been considering one of those doggie door bells... Have you seen those, want4rain?? It has a speaker with a door bell.. and a dog paw shaped button that you mount outside for your dog to press to come in?

luckypenny
June 29th, 2007, 02:55 PM
I'm not usually one to respond to anyone who wants something done immediately :D when it's demanded of me; I say let them wait a minute, unless it's an emergency of course.

... there are people with Bibles at the door wanting to discuss my salvation. *giggle*

Well, ok, I lied. That's the only time I let them in immediately so the can rush the front door and scare the living daylights out of them :laughing: :D .

pags
June 29th, 2007, 03:00 PM
ROFL LP!!! :laughing: :laughing:

want4rain
June 29th, 2007, 03:01 PM
*relief* thank you pags. :) the whole kid thing adds a totally different element to it doesnt it??

its honestly not practical for us to keep the water on the kitchen floor but its still soemthign we are working out. when we fed him kibble was when we made that decision but now that we are on raw/homemade we are talking abotu doing it differently. the biggest factor though is i have a hard time remembering thingslike that, to put water down and (but mostly) take it back up. the logistics of Misters things being in the kitchen and Jeffrey not being alowed in there... can not tell you how many times the gate has been left open and FUZZ BUNNY SOUP is for dinner!!! ...well you know how it is.

i think he has figured out the bell to get in... now we ahve to wait for it to get old. :rolleyes: one thing that helped was to STOP letting him unless he rang the bell. how i knew he rang the bell (even by accident) is i sat right here with my laptop and waited to hear even the slightest bell noise. then i would let him in. right now he whines whines whines and then rings the bell... the whining has gotten shorter but its not gone yet. the weather was a little cooler today which is why i stopped letting him right in. that and his bowl has a two litre of frozen water in it to keep it cool.

as for the body slamming... heck if i know. he doesnt do it to the door but he sure thinks its funny to get the "OH MAN!!! LOOK WHATS ON MY PANTS!!" when he does it to me playing fetch!!! dismay is totally lost on him! LOL

i think its really helped to enlist my daughter to oped the door for the bell. she is much faster and usually less busy than i am, in other words she can drop everything and get the door where as if im elbow deep in a really nasty diaper... he is just going to have to wait!!!

Mister is one of those obnoxious whiners also. we havent figured out how to tell him that whining is bad. right now we are just ignoring it and if its getting really bad we tell him BAD DOG! NO!! (Bad Dog is his name when he does somethign BAD so we arent using his Mister name for anythign bad. Mister always means good things) which usually gets him to quiet long enough for us to praise his silence... or rather praise all of his good time since we talk to our pets all the time anyway. it quiets the voices! :laughing: (JUST KIDDING!!!)


jessi76- in looking at your profile... i dont suppose you have children?? from what i gather a basenji (even a mix) takes up a whole kid slot in my book. they are harder to 'train', care for and probably more intelligent than most 5yo kids!


-ashley

want4rain
June 29th, 2007, 03:02 PM
Well, ok, I lied. That's the only time I let them in immediately so the can rush the front door and scare the living daylights out of them :laughing: :D .

HAHAHA whats even better is doing that to your kids!! or husband!

my poor guy has a few new gray hairs!

-ashley

luckypenny
June 29th, 2007, 03:14 PM
Mister is one of those obnoxious whiners also. we havent figured out how to tell him that whining is bad.

If I may? Again, this is our experience, don't know if it could help you. When Penny used to bark or whine (Lucky's usually the quiet one, will only howl when he's left totally alone :rolleyes: :D ) I took her very gently by the collar, smile on my face and all, and waited for her to stop. As soon, the very immediate second, she stopped, I said "quiet" and popped a treat into her mouth. The next time, I waited a full second before the "quiet" and the treat. Again, every consecutive time she stopped, I would immediately say "quiet" but extended the time I gave her the treat. It took a couple of weeks, lots of patience, but as soon as I say quiet, she usually obeys and no treat is now required.

pags
June 29th, 2007, 03:30 PM
*relief* thank you pags. :) the whole kid thing adds a totally different element to it doesnt it??

YES!!

the logistics of Misters things being in the kitchen and Jeffrey not being alowed in there... can not tell you how many times the gate has been left open and FUZZ BUNNY SOUP is for dinner!!! ...well you know how it is.


Oooh yes I do know how it is!! Ah the utter chaos.. "Okay.. baby in playpen.. toddler in high chair... er.. wait.. where are the dogs? Who left the front door open? Please tell me that's chocolate pudding...." It is an accomplishment to get through a single day, w4r.. it is. Be proud. :D

since we talk to our pets all the time anyway. it quiets the voices! (JUST KIDDING!!!)

Those voices are my friends! :clown:

i think its really helped to enlist my daughter to oped the door for the bell. she is much faster and usually less busy than i am, in other words she can drop everything and get the door where as if im elbow deep in a really nasty diaper... he is just going to have to wait!!!


That's actually a really good idea! Of course I'm going to have to 'train' one of my boys to actually pay attention and remember to let the dog in... It might be easier to just train the dogs to open the door themselves. :D

luckypenny
June 29th, 2007, 03:45 PM
...That's actually a really good idea! Of course I'm going to have to 'train' one of my boys to actually pay attention and remember to let the dog in... It might be easier to just train the dogs to open the door themselves. :D

:o Umm, I forgot to mention, Lucky has learned to open the patio screen door. Doesn't take any training at all :rolleyes: (guess that's what happens when the boys here don't act immediately, lol).

want4rain
June 30th, 2007, 09:06 AM
LP, that is going on the white board. i dont know practical it is NOW because of the TIMES he is whining (when we are outside adn he is in side, or when company walks in the door or we pull up in the drive way from being gone...) but if training doenst work and he gets to be a year or so and still does it all the time... we were thinking abotu getting one of those sonic collar trainer thingies... associate the beep with NO! and thus have soemthign to tell him NO! when we arent here??? i dont know. one step at a time i guess.

-ashley


[note] err... i typed this yesterday before my son did a number on my laptop. :)

want4rain
June 30th, 2007, 09:11 AM
haha so he has the bell now i think... im not sure what clicked with it. now he is whining to the cats. duh.... *sigh* maybe he has a whine quota??

-ashley