Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Dog Show ?

dtbmnec
May 29th, 2007, 02:04 PM
This quote from http://www.pets.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=432035&postcount=31:

"An ETHICAL breeder (which are really the only breeders that we like around here) do the following:

They show their dogs to a Championship to prove that their dogs are THE BEST OF THE BEST reguarding the standard."

got me wondering about this breeding thing...

So here's a hypothetical situation:

I have a dog named Rover. Rover is in Championship A. Rover wins first place. I take Rover to Championship B and he only takes 3rd. I take Rover on to Championship C where it seems that it is the absolute cream of the crop from all over North America of Rover's breed is. Rover loses. Badly. (He DID only get 3rd place on the second showing!)

So if I was an ethical breeder (doing all the stuff that I"m supposed to with the genetic stuff etc.) does that mean that I can't possibly ever breed Rover? (We're assuming that he's passed all tests and things) I mean he did lose and only place 3rd! Or does it depend on more than that?

And if that was Rover at his prime and we fast forward a year or two. Does that mean I can't breed him the next year (or two) because I didn't show him that year? I mean as with anything else in life, you get a little flabbier as you age (among a few other things :p), but would he have to be shown every year? What if I showed Rover but not on a large scale (think local shows...do they exist?)? Would that make a difference?


Needless to say this is ALLLLL hypothetical, after all what person names their show dog Rover? ;) Added to which if I even thought about getting a dog soon my parents would lynch me.

I suppose what I'm asking for is just a general overview of what all goes on rather than a "well if its breed X then you have to do it that way but if its breed Y then you can do it this way but if its breed Z you're in trouble" LOL

Megan

clm
May 29th, 2007, 02:16 PM
Breeding is very complex. Some breeders breed specifically for temperment, some for colour, some for size, and all the while coming as close to the breed standard as possible. A dog may do well at one show and not at another for a number of reasons. It may not be the best example of the breed at the show, or it may have an off day and not perform in the show ring. It may be the top dog in points all round for a particular breed, but may have some genetic defect that doesn't appear on the outside. Just because a dog is not in the top 10 of a particular breed in show points doesn't mean it shouldn't be used in the breeding programs of other breeders. Just because it is the top dog of a particular breed doesn't mean it should be used for breeding either. Takes years to understand the ins and outs of breeding. If you're really interested you could always hook up with the kennel club in your area and learn as much as you can, becoming a handler or finding a breeder to learn from would be another way to go about it too.

Cindy

dtbmnec
May 29th, 2007, 09:41 PM
Oh no CLM no no

Not at all interested in the least. It was just something that had occurred to me while reading that post is all.

Thanks though you've answered my questions :)

Megan

SableCollie
May 29th, 2007, 10:45 PM
Most dogs go to many shows before getting their championship. Once Rover is Ch. Rover, he doesn't have to keep showing to maintain the title. Although, I am not familiar with shows as you described (I only know AKC rules). :o

mafiaprincess
May 29th, 2007, 11:16 PM
Standard ebs and flows in the show world, but it stays near the breed club standard. Last season and possibly this season, afghan males actually over and on the top most end of the breed standard were the ones placing.

Sometimes people have a bad experience with a judge and make sure they never show to that judge again because they have something specific in mind and you don't own what you know they want.

Even with a pro handler it takes a good number of shows to take home enough minors and majors to win. It doesn't mean your dog isn't good enough unless you never ever win.

Once you CH a dog you can take it back into the ring, there isn't a mandatory to take the dog back ever. The breed standard shouldn't change enough that it matters. A breed club would have to make the changes for anything significant.

dtbmnec
May 29th, 2007, 11:22 PM
Most dogs go to many shows before getting their championship. Once Rover is Ch. Rover, he doesn't have to keep showing to maintain the title. Although, I am not familiar with shows as you described (I only know AKC rules). :o

Oh heck I know nothing of any of this...I kinda made it up :o to try and figure out what the general "policy" of it all is...

Megan

i_have_too_many
May 30th, 2007, 05:07 PM
I cant remember which post I first talked about this but I will do a brief show over-view. I just got a championship on one of my dogs, it took a year of showing, although I was only showing about once a month.

You enter your dog, IF the dog wins best of breed, best male or best female, it gets points for the dogs of that breed it beats (a sliding scale, not one point per dog). Once a dog has achieved 10 points (15 in the US) it is now called a Champion. BUT the dog must have won at least 2 "majors", meaning 2points at a time or more. (in the US it is 3).

So you can see that many dogs of the same breed can become Champions. Once a dog is a Ch it can be shown again, if the owner chooses. Like was stated earlier, some shows you win, some you dont, it depends on many things, location, season, judge, the way the dog feels, etc.

There will never be one grand champion in the whole country that remains, different judges have different likes/dislikes. In one of my breeds solid liver is an acceptable colour, but it is very difficult to "finish" a liver dog, there are not enough around in the show circut that judges dont seam to like them too much unless they are REALLY good.

So, a Ch just means that enough judges think that this particular dog is close enough to the standard to win at least 10 points. There are many other ways to make sure your dog is good enough to breed, such as working titles, obedience titles, or tracking titles (the only ones that I as a breeder consider to be "proper"). Sometimes you may have a dog that is really nice, but for some reason the judges just do not think it is THAT good, perhaps colour markings are off, or it is just does not show itself well, if it still fits in the standard, and has other titles to support it's worth, it could be used if bred to the right dog that will (hopefully) correct what-ever the judges didnt like.

Sorry for the ramblings, but I like to try to educate people about what breeders do to get a worthy dog. At least you are thinking on the right track, perhaps some day you may get your dog.

erykah1310
May 30th, 2007, 05:15 PM
in my searches for my future show dog ( getting closer but still so far)
I noticed that quite a few breeders have a dog in their lines who is not championshiped?
I know they dont have to be to breed, but what sort of reasons would there be for this?

mafiaprincess
May 30th, 2007, 05:25 PM
Well conformationed dog who doesn't have the personality for the ring is one I've seen off and on.

erykah1310
May 30th, 2007, 05:31 PM
In "my" world, :rolleyes:
personallity is equally important as conformation.

Im sure there are good reasons behind it, I mean there has to be.
I see it alot in different breeds pedigree's during my random searches for things when im bored.

SableCollie
May 30th, 2007, 05:55 PM
I noticed that quite a few breeders have a dog in their lines who is not championshiped?
Usually something minor that prevents the dog from winning. Sometimes breeders don't bother to show their bitches, even if they could potentially be a Ch, as long as the bitch produces well. Of course there are no perfect dogs, with breeding, you are recognising your bitch's (or dog's) faults and strengths and finding the mate that will complement your dog and improve on their weaknesses to produce puppies that are hopefully better than the individual parents. I would not be too concerned with getting a dog whose pedigree is 100% Champions, because that's basically impossible, and even if you did, it doesn't mean that then puppy will be show-quality. You really have to look at the breeding program, learn about the dogs in the puppy's pedigree, and look at the individual puppy itself.

erykah1310
May 30th, 2007, 05:58 PM
LOL,
"championshipped" that sounds hilarious.

SableCollie
May 30th, 2007, 06:03 PM
LOL, "championshipped"
Yeah, I'm not sure if that's a real word! :D

erykah1310
May 30th, 2007, 07:09 PM
Doubt it....

Good thing im not a breeder huh! :laughing:

They'd have all their bells and whistles:laughing: and be championshipped.

SableCollie
May 30th, 2007, 07:36 PM
I wouldn't be a good breeder because I would have all my dogs spayed/neutered! :D

mafiaprincess
May 30th, 2007, 07:37 PM
In "my" world, :rolleyes:
personallity is equally important as conformation.


Personality to excel in the ring.. Not a lacking of temperament or personality overall. Not every dog will happily go perform..

LavenderRott
May 30th, 2007, 08:25 PM
IMHO - if a you are going to use a dog in your breeding program that DOESN'T have a championship, it needs to be outstanding in other areas. For example, Rottweilers were bred to herd and protect the flock. If I was looking at a litter of puppies and both parents didn't have their championships (and I would expect at least one to have theirs) then I would expect that that dog would have working titles. Several working titles. And I would expect that they would have some points toward their championship - to show that they do meet the standard according to a breed judge.

I have a beautiful Belgian Sheepdog that meets the standard. He hates being in the show ring however. For that reason, he is neutered and a beloved house dog.

i_have_too_many
June 1st, 2007, 12:17 PM
There could be several reasons for not getting a championship on a dog, as stated above. One of the dogs I have just did not give two hoots about being shown, but she is titled in other areas and a great family and house dog, which is why we bred her. The male we used is championed and has the complete opposite show personality, really loves it and "shows off", I am hoping that the pup we kept will have her dads show personality. One of the other dogs we bought last year had not been shown, when I saw her she did look nice and I was sure I would get her "finished" (earn a Ch), even though at that time she was about 15 - 20lbs overweight. By the time we bred her, she had earned 3 points towards her Ch, then just last month I finished her. Sometimes when you see that a dog is not finished it could also mean that it is missing the "major" wins even if it does have the required amount of points. A person could have earned a few points on the dog, then decided they just didnt like showing and stopped. Although a championship is important, for me it is not the deciding factor when selecting a dog to breed to. Right now I am looking for a male for the one I just finished, he does not have to have his championship, but he needs to look like he could. However I am looking for a dog with several hunting titles.

In the purbred world you may discover that with certain breeds there is a huge difference between show and working lines. For instance, with Irish Setters, there are few out there with hunting titles, and those that have them rarely have a Ch. When the breed became popular for those interested in showing they bred the dogs to have fabulous coats and this "air" about them which makes them beautiful show dogs, but they did not need the hunting instinct which can sometimes make a dog a little harder to handle, so they stopped breeding for it. It is a real shame this happens, there are some breeders who do not do this and that is great, but it seams to be more popular in Canada than south of the border. I have spoken to several people who tell me if I was looking for a setter or spaniel with good hunting instincts, go south.

I have seen it happen too in one of my breeds, the German Shorthaired pointer. A dog with very strong hunting lines is too "hard" for the show ring and would probably never finish, whereas a really nice show dog can be a little too "soft" to make a reliable hunting companion. I am desperately trying to keep these dogs as versitile as they were originally bred to be, which is getting difficult. Our male, who is only one test away from his junior field title has 3 points on him, I may never finish him, (mainly because my hubby does not let me show him during training season), but we will continue to field train and plan to take him as far as we can. Personally I think he could finish, but he may end up being one of those dogs in a pedigree that does not have the Ch in front of his name.

Good luck in your search, there is so much to learn :D

Love4himies
June 1st, 2007, 01:01 PM
I always wanted to breed Himalayan cats, but I am not being very successful at it. Perhaps I should allow my females to go into heat before I get them spayed :D or not get my males neutered before they mature because I don't want them to spray :D