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Jag bit again.

angeldogs
May 9th, 2007, 09:07 AM
Well jag bit one of my wifes friends yesterday well i was at work in front of her daughter.my wife was out and when she came home her and her kids were here at the house and jag was outside.with an adult and my kids and hers. after i had asked when company was over he was to be crated.one of the kids let him in the house and he went up to her calm and sniffed her hand and she petted him and then he started to walk away and then turned around and bit her hand.he took off some skin and caused the hand to bleed.i can not have him continue to bite people.we have 2 young kids and and our company all have young kids.and we can not take anymore chances with jag.the weim rescue will not take him because of the biting.so i'm taking him to the spca tomorrow.i can not risk a child or another adult getting seriously bitten for no reason.this is very hard.i can't believe it has come to this.

clm
May 9th, 2007, 09:31 AM
I'm sorry that Jag has bitten again.
I'm even more concerned now that you've determined to give up on him and leave him at the SPCA. While I understand why you feel you have to, I'll never understand how you could give him up without finding the cause, whether it be medical or mental, or looking into behavioral training. Did you aquire him from a breeder, they may be able to shed some light on the breed or some of the medical problems they're prone to. He may have other problems that a trip to the vet may reveal. He's going to be leaving the only safe place he's ever known and will be thrust into a world of uncertaintly. I just think you're being rather unfair to the dog, and giving up on him rather quickly.
Just my opinion, but people never seem to treat their pets as a true family member when something like this rears it's head. Easier to get rid of the dog than try to deal with the problem.
Surely a very hard time ahead for him. :sad:

Cindy

technodoll
May 9th, 2007, 09:32 AM
sounds like a behavioral and training issue more than a streak of violence... wow I don't know what to say. i wouldn't want to be in your shoes, nor in Jag's.... how can you let your baby go so easily, without working or speaking with a trainer to see what the problem might be? do you know he might end up dead in a few days, or adopted by the wrong people and have a terrible life? :eek: :sad:

angeldogs
May 9th, 2007, 09:43 AM
Clm it's the 3rd time in a year.when we got him a friend of ny bro would come over riding his bike a he would go nuts even if my bro was on his bike with his helmeton.my bro started wlking his bike to the house from the corner and take his helmet off.till jag got used to him riding the bike and helmet.his friend wouldn't and everytime he came over jag went nuts.we were out front one day and he came over and i didn't know he was coming and when he showed up jag was on his tie out and ran off the porch before i could stop him and bit him.i went to OB for agressive dogs.have done level 2.i have continued with his training at home.and i was to the vet on monday and talked to them about him biting my buddy.this is not an easy decision for me or my wife.one i wish i did not have to make.

Hunter's_owner
May 9th, 2007, 09:45 AM
Omg, that is terrible:sad: I don't know what else to say, except that I am choking back tears. :sad: :sad:

angeldogs
May 9th, 2007, 09:45 AM
TD it's not easy.i should be sleeping and i can't.

clm
May 9th, 2007, 10:02 AM
Angel Dogs, I understand how you're feeling.
I've had aggressive dogs myself, and with all people being different, I did not give up the dog nor would I ever, no more than I would give up a child for adoption if they were a problem child.

You can take your anger out on me if you like, but it's not going to change how I feel about what you're doing.

Tied up dogs tend to be aggressive, so having him on a tie out isn't going to help him it adds to the aggression.

One trip to the vet isn't what I consider looking into medical or mental reasons for his behaviour and continuing his behavioral training at home without a qualified behaviorist obviously wouldn't be good enough.

In the end it's a decision that you will have to live with and if you give him up he may not have the opportunity to live period.

Cindy

papillonmama
May 9th, 2007, 10:36 AM
I hope your friend is okay, and I am so relieved that it wasn't more serious.

Good luck in whatever you do, I hope everything works out okay.:pray:

technodoll
May 9th, 2007, 10:37 AM
angeldogs, at least PLEASE consider keeping Jag until you have found the perfect home for him - keep him away from non-family members, keep him crated (but fully exercised or else he will go nuts), keep him in a locked room if you have visit over.

I am sure you can find him a good home, he's a good dog with special needs - maybe living on a farm, or in the country with a family who doesn't have kids, with a dog-knowledgable person who will work with him and understand his issues.

We can maybe help you here, or at lease direct you to some places. no "free to a good home" ads unless you KNOW these people and have done a home check.

your boy is worth that, at least. :pawprint:

clm
May 9th, 2007, 11:01 AM
Angel Dogs, please understand, I'm not trying to hurt you. I'm trying to help you and your dog. You've had this dog for less than a year and he's less than 3 years old. He needs your help. This was a posting from you about him in September. Below that is another post from October after the first incident by someone who thought you weren't doing enough about the problem then. Does everyone still play with him as much as before....look back at some of your old posts and see what if anything has changed and see if you really have tried everything you could. This breed is known for high prey drive and aggression and being protective of home and family, all things you should have considered BEFORE taking on this poor dog. Has this dog been neutered? If not why not. You chose this dog, he did not have the opportunity to chose you. You are responsible in my opinion period.
If you do give him up, forgive me if I'm less than excited if you decide to get another dog.

Cindy

September 3rd, 2006, 11:42 PM
angeldogs
Senior Contributor Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kitchener On.Ca
Posts: 1,099
September 3rd, 2006, 11:47 PM
angeldogs
Senior Contributor Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kitchener On.Ca
Posts: 1,099

He loves kids and other dogs.My daughter is 5.And she will but her foot on his but and pull his tail.When he has had enough he will turn around walk by her and bump her with he's hips and just keep on walking


You have to stay on top of him all the time.It's easy in my house we have 8 people living here.We spend hours in the back yard throwing his kong.I'm the only one who can walk him right now.We had him given to us at 11months old with no training.He was to be temp till we could find him a home.He did ours.Left us no choice but to love him But no regrets.Would get another one.


October 4th, 2006, 04:40 PM
dogmelissa
Pet Guardian Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 461

I'm reading this thread with a heavy heart. I'm wanting to ask a few questions, but not really wanting the answers to them. I fear that what might be best for the dog is being rehomed, as it sounds as if you aren't able or willing to provide the dog with what he needs, emotionally. Please don't be mad. Here's my interpretation of your situation (which is based solely on my opinions and thoughts composed only from your posts in this thread).

1. You have a "second-hand" dog, and by the sounds of it, a largish one. You got him from a friend, which suggests that he may either have been neglected, abused or simply never socialized & trained (which is IMO, a form of neglect). I have no idea if he is neutered or not, but that can be a contributing factor to all sorts of "aggressive" behaviour. I also have no idea how long he's been with you, but it doesn't sound like too long, nor do I know his age.
2. You are failing to identify situations which can trigger responses you don't desire in your dog. You've identified he doesn't like people with bike helmets on, but apparently haven't done anything to get him over that, other than "taking away the stimulus". You have put a bandaid on a still-bleeding wound.
3. You mentioned that you'd taken him to the dog park for the first time the day he "attacked" your coworkers. Dog parks are notorious for high-stimulus areas. There are often lots of dogs there who are very rude (and who's guardians think it's normal), and those dogs may have put your dog in a bad mood. Then you take him into a new situation (and again, not knowing his history, you could have taken him to what, in his mind, is the scariest place on earth), and don't have good control over your dog. How close was the first person he went after, that Jag was able to reach him the second he got out of your truck? Unless they were standing right next to the door, you should have been able to tighten your grip on Jag's leash and stop him. Was he on a leash?? If not, the fault lies squarely on your shoulders for the first "attack". And immediately after that incident, you should have put Jag back in the truck and left him there while you went on about your business. Obviously something about the situation was too much for him and by forcing him to be a part of it, you risked his life and those of the people he did "attack".
4. You need to educate the people around you. First and foremost, on how to approach a dog that they don't know (and sometimes, even ones they *do* know!). The correct way to approach a dog is to walk slowly towards the dog, speaking in a high-pitched but low volume voice (think like you'd do to a crying child), and holding your hand out, in a loose fist, but palm-up (palm-down is a threat to most dogs). Never *ever ever* look a strange dog in the eyes; especially one who seems afraid, angry, upset or aggressive, as this is a sign of dominance over a dog and if they're are agitated, they will feel the need to protect themselves, enforce *their* dominance or otherwise freak out. Secondly, you need to educate the people around you (neighbours) on how to properly treat a dog, including your kids. If you can't educate them, then your dog needs to be kept away from them. No unsupervised time in the yard if it means that your neighbours will tease him. No unsupervised time with the kids--EVER!! Teach your kids what is and isn't ok to do to a dog, and teach your dog how to remove himself from a situation he doesn't like (ie, give him a safe place like a kennel), and reinforce to your kids that if the dog is in his safe place, he is NOT to be touched, bothered, talked to or looked at. Most importantly is teaching your kids; you cannot blame a dog for biting a child when the child was yanking on his ears or sticking their fingers in his eyes (though that's often what happens, and it's rarely seen as the child's fault). Third is teaching yourself (and your wife and any other person who is a caregiver to the dog). You *must* learn what situations, clothing, specific people or locations, etc, trigger responses in your dog that you don't like. You *must* learn to read your dog. Is he genuinely showing aggressive behaviour, provoked by nothing? Or is he really showing territorial aggression, or more commonly, fear aggression?? Was he surprised by any of the people he "attacked"? Were you more focused on the person approaching (or the act of climbing out of your truck or opening the door or some other task), or were you actually watching your dog? 99% of dogs who show fear aggression first show signs of being afraid; dropping their tail towards their belly, shrinking towards the floor, and other physical signs of being afraid. Chances are that your dog has been afraid and wasn't protected by a human who was supposed to protect him, and so he has decided that he needs to protect himself. You must work with him to identify his fears and find a way to ensure that he understands that YOU have the situation under control, that you will not let the thing that causes him fear to cause harm to him, and that you are there for him.

If you are not willing to work with your dog, then what would be best for him is if he is rehomed. Phone the rescue people and explain the situation; that you have a fearful dog and you aren't able to work with him. If you tell the rescue people that you have an aggressive dog, they won't take him, because that suggests that there is something wrong with the dog. There isn't, he just hasn't been taught that humans will protect him from the things that he is afraid of.
If he is genuinely aggressive, you would not be able to take him to the dog park at all, he would react the same way to *all* people, no matter the situation, and he would need to be euthanized. If you feel that his problems are beyond solving, then you would be better off to have him euthanized.

I know this sounds harsh, and like I'm attacking YOU. I'm not. But I have a dog who could be labelled as aggressive, and I have struggled to get him under control and behaving in such a way so that he wouldn't be labelled. It's been a long frustrating task, and it could have been avoided if my dog hadn't been abused (he was kicked by a man, and 90% of his "aggression" is toward men). The biggest challenge I've faced is in trying to make other people understand that my dog is different and needs to be treated a special way. It's difficult for people to understand that they can't just walk up to my dog (even though he's a small dog), and that I'm turning my back on them because I'm trying to show my dog that I'm not afraid, not because I'm trying to be rude to them. Kids especially don't understand why I won't let them pet or approach my dog. I've worked very hard in the last few months (when I finally started to understand his behaviour) to change him, and I've seen tons of improvements, but there are still many things we need to work on. It's as much an education for ME as it is for him.
I don't want to see any dog euthanized, but most people don't understand what their dog is actually "saying" when they act in ways that we don't find appropriate. Here is a good website for helping you understand what could be going on: http://www.flyingdogpress.com/artlibreg.htm (see specifically "He Just Wants to Say Hi!", "Aggression Basics" & "Some Reasons for Aggression")
If you have any questions, don't hesitate to PM me.
Again, I apologize if this sounded like I was being harsh or insulting to you. I really don't want to see your dog be rehomed, but if your family isn't willing to work with him, the best course of action for all (so you, your kids or your coworkers don't get hurt, and to avoid the dog being labelled as vicious) might be sending him to a home where they can work with him. It might just be something that's beyond your abilities, and there's no shame in that. It just means that the next dog you get you should try to find one who doesn't have so many issues, not that you are a bad person who shouldn't have a dog. There are very few people in the world that I think shouldn't have a dog--the fact that you are here asking for help tells me that you are the kind that SHOULD have a dog, just maybe Jag is too far beyond your abilities.

Good luck.
Melissa

technodoll
May 9th, 2007, 11:06 AM
also, you wanted him tested for thyroid - i think it's a good idea!! thyroid imbalances are often a cause of unexplained aggression and CAN be managed with soft daily meds (such as synthroid). I know you love jag and care about him, and this is a really hard decision for you and your family. but please don,t pass the problem on to another person, he will just end up in trouble and Put To Sleep. this is your beloved boy here, one of your children - even if he has 4 legs.

luckypenny
May 9th, 2007, 11:35 AM
Wow. Angeldogs, this must be so difficult for you and your family. This seems to be a problem that has existed for a while now. I agree with Technodoll to have his thyroid tested as well as a full physical check-up even if you decide to give him up. At least, if there will be a future home for him, they will know what they are dealing with.

I read the post by dogmelissa and I agree with her statement, "It might just be something that's beyond your abilities, and there's no shame in that.." But please, if you decide to rehome him, you must be perfectly honest about his behavior and actions. No, it's not his fault, but the safety of others must be a priority here. Unfortunately, if you bring him to a shelter, chances are he'll be euthanized. They would be liable for any harm that he caused others and I don't think many organizations would be able and/or willing to take on this responsibility.

Carefully consider if you are able to work with him and, if not, what are all the options available to you and try to choose responsibly. It doesn't have to be 'damned if you do, damned if you don't.' Take some time to think about it, speak to professionals experienced in this matter, and then make an informed decision with everyone's best interests in mind, including Jag's.

Lukka'sma
May 9th, 2007, 11:37 AM
I'm so sorry that you are having a problem with Jag. You have a very hard decision to make. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.
I will be thinking of both of you

jiorji
May 9th, 2007, 11:43 AM
oh no poor Jag. I think it takes a lot of courage to admit that you're taking him away. But if you don't trust him and can't focus on more training, then I'm sure you know what's best for your kids.:sad:

Frenchy
May 9th, 2007, 12:45 PM
I completely understand that you can't take any chances because you have kids . But please do not take him to the spca, he will either be put down or he will keep going back there or worse, crummy pounds. Or worse, people who will beat him because he bit them. I'm sure a rescue somewhere could take him and take the time to evaluate him and work a bit with him ? Please make some phonecalls, you can pm me , I will give you my e-mail adress, maybe we can find a rescue in Ontario that would take him and work with him?

erykah1310
May 9th, 2007, 12:54 PM
Have you tried other rescues?
I understand your worries, a biting dog is something to take very seriously, especially with children.
Yes, it can be worked on with either good results or none, I think its worth a try, but its not my call.

SableCollie
May 9th, 2007, 01:42 PM
I don't know of any rescues that will place a dog that has bitten 3 times. If you feel you cannot work with him, you should take him to be euthanized. I know that is harsh, but it is less cruel for him to die in your arms than to be in a shelter with strangers when it happens. Of course I would rule out any medical cause first, testing for thyroid levels and lyme disease as these can both cause aggressive behavior, and check to make sure nothing is causing the dog pain-dogs in pain will bite. Then I would find a good behaviorist to work with. Training and management could save his life. I would rather have a dog that has to be put in a bedroom when company is over (and yes, we do have one of those at home) than no dog at all.

Of course, in the end it is your dog, and your decision.

angeldogs
May 9th, 2007, 02:14 PM
clm we took jag because of a friend who got deported and didn't want to put him in the spca.it was only to be temp.and no there wouldn't be another dog.
he listens accept for the biting.that is the concern and in both cases this week there was no warning no growling just sniff and bite
yes he has been nutered we got that done about a month after we took him
and yes all we still play with him.

SableCollie
May 9th, 2007, 02:46 PM
That is a tricky situation, does your friend still technically own the dog? If you didn't sign any contract, the dog would probably legally still belong to your friend, or your friend's family. You might want to make sure there aren't any tricky legal problems before doing anything.

You mentioned Jag doesn't warn before he bites. Not every dog growls, but every dog warns before a bite, you just have to learn what their warning is. Could be a stare, or a freeze, or change in posture. These signs can be very subtle. He could have been "warning" these people in the past, and no one noticed, and he has finally escalated to biting. It seems to be an "outside person" aggression issue, if he has always been good with the family in the house, this could be workable.

Obedience training doesn't cure aggressive dogs, because it doesn't change their aggressive feelings. I know that isn't worded well, sorry. If you want to work with him, you will have to do desensitization and counter-conditioning to strangers, there is a very good email list for aggressive dogs on yahoo that my mother has utilized, the people there are really dedicated to helping others through these issues.

lauriet
May 9th, 2007, 03:06 PM
What about the Humane Society? If your local (KW, right?) branch won't take Jag, or can't assure you he won't be put down, maybe you could try Toronto's HS.
Good luck -- you're in such a tough spot right now.

Prin
May 9th, 2007, 07:30 PM
If you want to work with him, you will have to do desensitization and counter-conditioning to strangers, there is a very good email list for aggressive dogs on yahoo that my mother has utilized, the people there are really dedicated to helping others through these issues.I agree. Desensitization is the key here, if it's not a medical issue. I'm kind of with techno on this one- I find it terribly sad that you'll give up before figuring it out. The SPCA will definitely put a dog who has bitten 3 times down, so you'd better consider that.

Have you seen a behaviorist at all? Weims are very hard dogs to train and doing it alone isn't ideal, especially if you haven't had one already.

Have you had the thyroid tested?

glitterless
May 9th, 2007, 08:30 PM
I think that handing this dog over to the SPCA and disclosing the fact that he bites is a VERY responsible thing to do. I can only imagine how difficult it is, and I'm sorry that you have to go through this.

Yes, biting can be dealt with, and yes, I agree that when you take on a dog, you take on that dog's problems and that they are yours to deal with. However, we all make mistakes. Children are involved, and it would be awful if this dog bit a child badly after the owners know what the dog is capable of.

I wouldn't prolong giving him up. Either do that or have him euthanized. It's not the dog's fault, but it would be so wrong if that dog ever bit a child.

Winston
May 9th, 2007, 09:11 PM
Wow this is a tough situation to be in?? However, I agree that a dog that has bitten 3 times is likely to be euthanised if turned over to the SPCA..You might as well take him to your vet and have him euthanized yourself with you by his side because he would likely be under these circumstances...

I have great respect for you in coming to the forum to discuss this..sometimes the replies you receive may not be the best or what you like! but we all have a great wealth of information to share here and I think some consideration should be given to what some people have said here! Many have voiced concerns about a dog biting a child and I would certainly feel horrible!

But I would also want to know what the problem is?? medical?? past abuse? whatever the issue....Only you can make that choice but I personally would always wonder what the real problem was.....I have seen a few dogs through a rescue group that I have helped out with and they were in horrible condition with fears out of this world (issues) and with hard work, compassion and certainly good consistant training have turned out to be the best companions!!

I hope that this turns out for both of you!

Cindy
:fingerscr

coppperbelle
May 9th, 2007, 09:16 PM
I think that handing this dog over to the SPCA and disclosing the fact that he bites is a VERY responsible thing to do. I can only imagine how difficult it is, and I'm sorry that you have to go through this.

Yes, biting can be dealt with, and yes, I agree that when you take on a dog, you take on that dog's problems and that they are yours to deal with. However, we all make mistakes. Children are involved, and it would be awful if this dog bit a child badly after the owners know what the dog is capable of.

I wouldn't prolong giving him up. Either do that or have him euthanized. It's not the dog's fault, but it would be so wrong if that dog ever bit a child.

I agre wholeheartedly. There are small children living in this home and no matter how many precautions you take to keep them apart doors do get left open accidentally.
You can have his thyroid tested because it can be making him aggressive. ONe of my dogs was extremely aggressive but with thyroid medication and training she has overcome most of her problems however I would never trust her alone with children. She too has bitten three times. Since Jag has bitten three times already I doubt any rescue group would take him on. Your only chance is to maybe place him privately but you will have to be completely honest with anyone who is interested. I know how you are feeling because I went through something very similar a year and half ago.
Good luck with your decision. I feel for you.

clm
May 9th, 2007, 09:24 PM
I agree, there's always a warning, it may be subtle, but it's there. I find the whole thing very sad. He's never bitten the family he lives with, just people visiting the house. In my opinion, since the breed is known to be wary of others outside his pack and protective of house and family, he would have to be always kept in total control any time anyone visits the house. If you can't rely on anyone else in your family to do this if you're not there, then he may well bite a child visiting. Family training along with the dogs training should have been done from the get go. I don't think his chances are very good unless you can find a rescue willing to work with him.

Cindy

rainbow
May 10th, 2007, 12:38 AM
I agree. Desensitization is the key here, if it's not a medical issue. I'm kind of with techno on this one- I find it terribly sad that you'll give up before figuring it out. The SPCA will definitely put a dog who has bitten 3 times down, so you'd better consider that.

Have you seen a behaviorist at all? Weims are very hard dogs to train and doing it alone isn't ideal, especially if you haven't had one already.

Have you had the thyroid tested?


I agree and I hope something can be done for Jag. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

angeldogs
May 10th, 2007, 04:48 AM
The last 2 times he has biten he sniffed first then bit.i have made the decision as a father and have keep my feelings for jag out of this because it would only cloud things over.the kids are devastated and don't want jag gone.i was told back in dec by our ob to rehome him for the fact everyone in the house was to be involved in the training and correcting him be cause he had no training till i got him and she new i was the only one doing the training and correcting.i told her no.i would find a way and didn't believe her.well she was right it's happening.so i have a lot of anger and resentment for certain people right now.and i don't want jag to get put down i thought ours spca was a no kill.Sablecollie.know jag is in my name.my friend was deported.he's back home.the vets secertary called and it's going to be a couple of days before i hear from her.something about have to talk with other vets.the wifes friend went to the doctor an stopped in last night well i was at work and asked for the vet name and if jag was up todate on his shots for her doctor.she said she was ok.

Rottielover
May 10th, 2007, 08:01 AM
just out of curiousity, where did you get him from?, did you get him from a breeder, and if so was the breeder notified??
I do not remember if you have said where he was from.
But for a dog to smell+ think then bite, this was intential.
I know what you are going through, I went through it years ago...But it is never easy doing the right thing.
If you give him to the spca, they will euthanize him, much better if he left with people he loves. JMO.
I am so sorry for what you are going through, I sincerly am :(:grouphug:

chico2
May 10th, 2007, 08:21 AM
Angeldogs,I can certainly understand your concern for the safety of your friends and their kids.
However giving him to the SPCA to spend days or weeks alone in a cage,without the people he loves, only to in the end be euthanized for biting,is a really sad scenario.
I hate to say it,but if there is absolutely no way he can be trained not to bite,or there is nobody willing to help him,the responsability to decide his fate is up to you,not the SPCA,IMO..unless the SPCA have the time and people to help him,which I doubt,there are so many needy sweet dogs,a biter would not stand a chance.
My walking-companion Bailey(Cocker)will snap at some strangers,even bit my sons girfriend,she's unpredictable with people she does not know and I am well aware of that and take precautions.
Hopefully your problem will be solved without beautiful Jag losing his life,either medically or with more training,but please not a cage at the SPCA:sad:

Sadie's_Mom
May 10th, 2007, 08:28 AM
I know this might sound crazy but you might want to try Dr.Stanly of the show good dog...He is amazing with these types of behaviours.. Just a though! I know it's no an easy decision but i would give it a try and see what happend before giving up on him..


Good luck!

happycats
May 10th, 2007, 01:07 PM
You may also want to try the trainer from that new show "at the end of my leash".

Our dog bit strangers/visitors as well, but she was loyal and loving to our family, and we never feared she would bite us. and she never did (unless provoked)

Because of this we ALWAYS had to properly introduce her to strangers, and if we knew she was going to bite (trust me, the sign language is there if they don't like someone, and if they are going to bite) we would put her in the basement, for the duration of the visit.

I don't think the SPCA is the answer, they have enough trouble finding homes for wonderful, loving, well behaved dogs, let alone one that bites! And if they are a "no kill" shelter, Jag could languish in a cage for years before a suitable home is found. :sad:

glitterless
May 11th, 2007, 01:24 AM
Just a question for those of you suggesting no kill shelters or rescues. Do any of you have any idea how overcrowded these places already are? I'm affiliated with a no kill rescue. There are more stray and unwanted animals out there than anyone can care for. Although it's tragic, I honestly believe that the best solution in this situation is euthanasia. UNLESS the owner can find a very responsible person who is aware of that the dog bites and has the means to overcome this, there is, in my opinion, no other option.

I love this board. Many of the posters are very knowledgeable people who can offer a wealth of information. I always look forward to logging in and reading everyone's advice. However, I find it ironic that we're not allowed to discuss and give advice on many health issues, yet it's okay for people to suggest that this man keep this dog in a family with children.

I realize that dogs bite and that it's their nature. But I've seen what a dog like this can do to children and it's devastating. Maybe he is generally protective of his "pack", but a dog like this obviously doesn't know that he can't bite strangers, so who knows when he'll take it upon himself to put one of "his" kids in line. I've also seen this happen. Dogs don't necessarily bite because they are mean and they want to cause pain. A small bite or nip that would be a warning to another member of the pack can do very serious damage to a person, especially a child. I don't know this dog, nor do I know this family, but I don't find it unreasonable at all to assume that this dog will one day bite one of the kids.

I agree that pets are a responsibility and that ideally, every pet owner should be prepared to deal with anything and everything that that pet throws at them until the pet dies. However, that's not practical. A huge number of families have a dog or cat, or both. It's common for any type of person, including those with little animal experience to acquire a dog as a pet. Unfortunately, I don't think that all of these dog owners realize what a dog really is. They are NOT machines that are born knowing how to sit, stay, and stay off the couch. They are animals with instincts that, despite their domestication, still have minds of their own and will act on impulses just like we sometimes do. You can't predict every bite. Maybe there are subtle warnings in the minutes or seconds leading up to the bite, but most people either don't recognize these signs or they don't have time to stop the dog. More often than not, I think that we see these warning signs weeks, months, or years before a dog actually bites. Again, most people aren't educated enough to realize what they are seeing.

With a predator, such as a dog, dominance needs to be established from day one, and by everyone who interacts with the dog. The dog must respect the human, but at the same time, the human must respect the dog and not abuse the dog or spoil him. Obviously not everyone who has a dog is capable of this or even knows to do it. This is why dogs bite and this is why, in my opinion, pit bulls are banned in Ontario. I'm not suggesting that dog owners be licensed, but I do wish that more people were educated on dog behaviour and training.

Although I'm sure that this dog can be reformed, I really don't think that it's practical. It's great that some of you have suggested that this man keep his dog or find a rescue...I suggest that one of you take on this huge responsibility yourself if you don't want to see the dog euthanized.

angeldogs
May 11th, 2007, 05:05 AM
SableCollie.i just reread your posts.the O.B only works with agressive dogs.and after the first time with my brothers friend i found herand seen her one on one.and with the first friend.up till the bite.he was a lap dog to him.he would climb on his lap and lick him.then they would play ball.the wifes friend i'm at work when her and the kids come by so i know only what i was told.both are not strangers.thats whats so shocking.my buddy has been coming around jag since we got him.

Furbaby Momma
May 11th, 2007, 07:58 AM
Glitterless execelent post, every word you wrote is perfect!

Angeldogs, the choice you are faced with is difficult...do what is best for you and your family. :grouphug:

mydogs
May 11th, 2007, 09:19 AM
So sorry for your grief, I do know that there are some forms of Epilepsy that will cause a dog to bite and usually you don't know that there having a attack ,it may be a good idea to test for it before giving up on your pup.:)

Chris21711
May 11th, 2007, 11:31 AM
Hi everyone, I do not say much but read daily. Just a note on no-kill shelters. The OSPCA is not a no-kill facility. My daughter has worked for them for the past 4 years in one of their shelters (not office work) and they assess each animal individually. As a rule if a dog has a reputation for biting it is euthanized. I am loathe to say more on their 'rules' as one never knows who is reading the forum.

Frenchy
May 11th, 2007, 12:26 PM
Just a question for those of you suggesting no kill shelters or rescues. Do any of you have any idea how overcrowded these places already are?

Well, you know what ? I am with a rescue !!! And there are some of us who do take not so perfect dogs to work with them. I am fostering one right now. As for taking responsability, I did offer help to rehome this dog. So there !

Prin
May 11th, 2007, 12:35 PM
But I've seen what a dog like this can do to children and it's devastating. Dogs like what? Have you met this dog? If you work with animals, you should know that what people say and what is really going on are two different things. People may mean well, but they by no means have the expertise to properly assess a dog or a dog's behavior. THAT is why people are suggesting rescue. Experienced rescues can tell the difference very quickly between a dog who has major irreversible psychological problems and a dog who just needs better training.

SableCollie
May 11th, 2007, 02:29 PM
O.B only works with agressive dogs
It *may* help if the dog is so well trained it will stay in a sit/stay or down/stay when people or whatever triggers the aggression are around. BUT the dog is still an aggressive dog. The dog still has aggressive feelings/negative associations towards people and the *only* way to change a dog's associations/feelings is desense and cc. In fact OB training, especially traditional (force-based) training may exacerbate the problem. The dog is extremely uncomfortable in an environment, but it has been taught to suppress any aggressive displays. The dog is a ticking time bomb. Eventually it will go over-threshold and bite, and if it has been corrected for growling or snarling or snapping in the past, it will go right to bite, without much of a "display". You must understand, I work at a shelter, I see the dogs owners have given up on, legally we are not allowed to adopt out a dog that has bitten more than twice (reported bites, meaning someone went to the hospital), however if the dog has not bitten, or the bites were not bad bites (nonreported, meaning they didn't require a hospital visit), and I feel the dog can be worked with, we will set up a desensitization/couterconditioning program. Before I began learning about desense/cc/operant conditioning, these dogs would be euthanised because regular "obedience training" did not work. If the dogs were adopted out, they would bite again.

I do understand that this is a very very difficult situation for you, and I wish you the best.

~michelle~
May 11th, 2007, 03:54 PM
here are some links to different weim rescues maybe if you called them they can help you


http://www.weimaranercanada.org/rescue/

http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/pointers/weim_rescue.htm

glitterless
May 12th, 2007, 03:43 AM
Prin, of course I don't know this dog. However, I don't believe that it's too strong of a generalization to say that dogs that bite should not be re-homed. I have more of a problem with suggestions of passing this dog on to someone else than of people finding a rescue for this dog.

So, I don't know this dog, but you, Prin, obviously know the poster if you can assume that what he's saying and what is really happening are two different things.

We CAN'T save every dog!!!!! It's not going to happen and it's not practical. It's so sad, but true.

Frenchy, good for you. You sound like a very selfless person and I wish you luck with the dog that you're currently working with.

Furbaby, thank you :)

BMDLuver
May 12th, 2007, 09:36 AM
I would have to agree with glitterless on this one. The posts have been excellent. Dogs die daily in shelters that are perfectly happy go lucky types, never bitten, never shown any aggression at all. The time it would take to try to help this one dog, if he can be helped, means how many others die while you keep a spot tied up with him. It's a harsh reality but you cannot fix every dog nor can you choose to do so. You have to look at the big picture. Personally, if this dog were in my care and this had happened, I would be taking him myself to be put to sleep with dignity and someone who loves him at his side. That much you owe him. Until you've had a child seriously bitten by a dog, you think maybe you can work this out. But kids are kids and saying don't let the dog out or around can be very tricky as the dogs wagging it's tail, being normal and bang, he bites out of nowhere. It becomes your responsibility for knowing already what this dog is capable of under stressful circumstances. The risk is too great to not do the right thing and take responsibility for him and the duration of his life. It's a tough position you are in but one that I think you already know the answer to.

x.l.r.8
May 12th, 2007, 09:55 AM
OMG :sad: I just clicked on after a few days working in the fields. I feel for you and your family. I can't add anything, I'm thinking only YOU will know whats best but it's nice to see others opinions, even if they are not of your own. Not going to use silly Icons, I just want to say you will be welcome in my drinking bowl what ever decission you take.
Good luck and stay in touch either way. Big sloppy one to Jag as always, and if you go looking for a trainer, it's a bit of a treck, but i'll put a plug out for cantass, they taught us how to handle Riley and we will be forever grateful. You know where we are if you need us.

Inverness
May 12th, 2007, 10:00 AM
Well, you know what ? I am with a rescue !!! And there are some of us who do take not so perfect dogs to work with them. I am fostering one right now. As for taking responsability, I did offer help to rehome this dog. So there !

Help is not needed to REHOME this dog, not at the moment. Dog must be ASSESSED very carefully, any health issue must be ruled out, and then the dog must be RETRAINED, if possible, or euthanasia must be decided upon if the dog still presents a danger and cannot be managed safely. This dog is not ready to be rehomed just yet. That would be a very bad idea and could result in another bite incident.

Weims are high-drive dogs with a definite aggression potential. They need knowledgeable handlers.

I am a sporting dogs rescuer. I handle Pointers, GSPs, Weims, Griffons, Setters. I have pm'd Jag's owner to ask more details about the whole situation. I would never commit to helping this dog before having a full behavioural assessment done on him. If the dog fails the assessment, as long as I agree with the ways of assessing and with who does it, I would, too, recommend euthanasia. But maybe not, so the first step would be to have this assessment done. Some dogs just need a more experienced handler and can do just fine. Others cannot be handled safely. Weims, especially, have been overbred in this country and many have a very poor, unpredictable temperament.

I agree with glitterless that rescuers' resources are stretched to the limit. However, we all owe Jag the chance of at least being assessed properly. Making decisions just by reading posts on a forum is not appropriate, imo. We also owe Jag enough respect to indeed suggest euthanasia, if it is the only reasonable avenue.

BMDLuver
May 12th, 2007, 10:02 AM
Excellent post Inverness!

mona_b
May 12th, 2007, 10:16 AM
I agree BMD.

Jag has bitten one too many times.And the people he has bitten are not strangers.These are people he knows.Would I consider him "aggressive",no.And why?Because an aggressive dog will go after any and everyone.And I'm sorry to say,some dogs do NOT give you a warning when they are going to bite.At 14 I was bit twice by my friends bull terrirX.I knew this dog since he was a pup.And no warning was given.Heck Ringos tail was wagging at the time.And this was a loving dog.Go figure.

It's one thing to work with an aggressive dog,but how do you work with one who is not?

Would I adopt a dog that has bitten,no I wouldn't.I would not take that chance.And I really don't think any SPCA or HS would adopt a dog out like this.Yes they do a TT test before they adopt them out.But with Jag he may pass it.Why,cause like I satated he is not aggressive.And trust me,In my line of work I have seen aggressive dogs.

The next person he bites may be worse.You never know.And if it does happen,you can bet a charge will be laid against angeldogs.And what if Jag ends up biting one of the kids?How can any parent live this?And I have been to a few calls where children have been bitten/attacked by the family dog,and trust me,it's not a pretty site.

As for the comment about dogs being more aggressive when tied up.Yes that happens,IF they are tied up 24/7 and not around people.This isn't the situation with Jag.:)

erykah1310
May 12th, 2007, 11:14 AM
I find it ironic that we're not allowed to discuss and give advice on many health issues, yet it's okay for people to suggest that this man keep this dog in a family with children.



I too find that ironic. Great post glitterless.
And I do have to agree with glitter,Iverness and BMD on this one.

I think many of us pm'd and offered some help, I did as well, but not me personally per se, I know of a rescue that works with aggressive biting dogs.
In the end, though its not our call for Jag.
All we can do is offer support for this ( im certain) very heartbreaking and stressful time for the OP.

badger
May 12th, 2007, 11:23 AM
My sister rescued a dog who was similarly afflicted, a border collie crossed with something bigger, tall and rangy. The owner had fallen ill quite suddenly and he was kept in a cage at the vet's for several weeks (which can't have helped). I'm not sure if he was ever properly assessed. He didn't do badly at first. He was incredibly energetic, got masses of exercise and was rarely left alone. His biting came out of the blue, for no apparent reason. Didn't matter if you were friend or foe, everyone was at risk. Trainers were consulted and she worked hard to get through to him, but it had no effect. It seemed to happen during quiet times, the most innocent gesture set him off, never when running in the park, in fact he was positively joyful with other dogs. In every other way, he was the sweetest fellow. One night he bit my niece on the face, BIL went ballistic. My sister felt so badly that she sent a close friend, whom the dog knew and liked, to be with him at the end.
Angeldogs, whatever you decide, I really feel for you.

PS Not to say that the right trainer wouldn't be able to help him. But with so many other people in your household to protect, it may be difficult to ever have confidence that the problem was indeed solved.

angeldogs
May 12th, 2007, 02:07 PM
here are some links to different weim rescues maybe if you called them they can help you


http://www.weimaranercanada.org/rescue/

http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/pointers/weim_rescue.htm

The top link i called and i had to call london and they will not take him.
thanks

angeldogs
May 12th, 2007, 02:20 PM
Badger there are only 4 of us now.my bro moved out.the only time jag was tied up was when we went out front for a smoke.we do not smoke in the house.if he wanted outside with us.when it's raining hard.other then that it's out back unchained.so 15min max on chain out front.

Thanks x.l.r.8

Prin
May 12th, 2007, 02:52 PM
So, I don't know this dog, but you, Prin, obviously know the poster if you can assume that what he's saying and what is really happening are two different things.No, I don't. But in general, when it comes to serious issues about dogs, I've learned that unless you see it, you really can't assess any situation either by phone or over the net. None of us saw this dog bite. There could be warnings there that the OP just isn't seeing. That's why I suggested that the dog get assessed both medically and by a behaviorist before the OP decides to give him up.

How many times have I seen dogs at the park escalate to a fight while the owners say it happened out of nowhere?

All I'm asking for is to not give up until the dog is seen. If the behaviorist and vet say there's nothing they can do, then you've done everything you could have for this dog.

Rescues can't save every dog, but each individual can do their best with their own dogs. Is that too much to ask?

LL1
May 12th, 2007, 04:23 PM
I think that handing this dog over to the SPCA and disclosing the fact that he bites is a VERY responsible thing to do.

I dont,and would not suggest having his dog die alone in a shelter

Didnt you just post questioning others for suggesting shelters and rescues?

Great post Prin.

badger
May 12th, 2007, 04:30 PM
Angeldogs, I wasn't comparing the two situations AT all, just relating my sister's experience with a biter. We know you are fond of Jag, why else would you be so conflicted?

angeldogs
May 12th, 2007, 08:04 PM
Badger.i know you weren't comparing i got confused trying to keep up with everything sorry.

I went by my O.B.she only works with Aggressive dogs.she worked with jag because every other O.B weekened classes were full.anyways.she thinks it might be territoral aggression.she gave me some holistic drops for jag and wants to acess him.and wants me to take him to a vet were she vollinters to rule out any medical.so as you can see i'm trying to follow the advice given.thank you everyone.

erykah1310
May 12th, 2007, 08:11 PM
I'll be keeping you and Jag in my thoughts, I hope you can work this out.:pray:

angeldogs
May 12th, 2007, 08:21 PM
I'll be keeping you and Jag in my thoughts, I hope you can work this out.:pray:

Thank you.before i can do anything with him this needs to be done.before we can move on to the next step.

technodoll
May 12th, 2007, 08:54 PM
:grouphug: to you all... i can't imagine how difficult this all must be for you right now. hang in there. :grouphug:

Prin
May 12th, 2007, 09:22 PM
:grouphug: Good luck! :goodvibes: :fingerscr

Skryker
May 12th, 2007, 09:31 PM
:grouphug: :goodvibes: Good luck! This is a terrible situation to be put into. I hope you get some good news.

angeldogs
May 12th, 2007, 10:25 PM
Thanks everybody.Jags mineral test came back normal.
He's still being the same way with us and family which is good.still getting his loving.he was really happy to get his frozen green tripe.

Lukka'sma
May 12th, 2007, 11:49 PM
Good luck angeldogs, and Jag

TeriM
May 12th, 2007, 11:58 PM
Just wanted to send some good vibes your way. This must be such a difficult time and I wish you luck :fingerscr :goodvibes: .

sissani
May 12th, 2007, 11:59 PM
I'm glad you decided not to give up just yet, I really hope it works out!!

glitterless
May 13th, 2007, 12:21 AM
Good luck with Jag, angeldogs. I hope that you can figure out what the best thing is for yourself, your family, and for Jag.

I realize that I come off harsh sometimes, but I am honestly not a dog hater! I am the type of person who gets attached to a wild bird that frequents my barn yard! The more time I spend with animals, the more difficult I find it when I have to say goodbye.

Although many of us disagree on such issues, we are all here because we love animals and want what's best for them. Even during debate, I feel very much at home on this board because I know that in the end, I'm talking about my passion with other like-minded people.

angeldogs
May 13th, 2007, 12:55 AM
Glitterless.i don't look at it as being harsh.with getting jag my buddy asked at
9:00 pm on a thurs.and need to know by that fri night.like i said before it was to be temp.i asked around and some hunters i know.none use dogs anymore and didn't want him.so we kept him instead.and this board has been a big help.that's why i posted instead of just disappearing and leaving people in the dark.just out of respect for the help and info i have recieved from the board.i'm still with the same plan.the wifes not anymore she wants to keep him same with the kids.they are smart.they said crate him.either way after reading the posts and calmed down and after getting some sleep.it made me realize that if it's health problem it's up to me to get the problem fixed first.i wouldn't hide that he has bitten.and if health i wouldn't hide that either.i would be up front about it.

glitterless
May 13th, 2007, 01:34 AM
I hope that you can find a solution. So I guess from here you'll investigate his health and then decide what to do next?

My parents' family dog bit my sister when she was about 16 -- 7 years ago. He had actually bitten once or twice before, like Jag. The last bite was the most traumatic. He got her right in the face, and she needed emergency plastic surgery to have her lip reattached.

We ended up keeping the dog. He's 11 years old now and he'll finally be put to sleep this summer as his health is failing. I don't think that any of us trusted him after that bite, but then again, it's probably naive to trust any dog not to bite. So I know where you're coming from...it's not so easy to have him put down, especially when the rest of your family is against it.

I believe that he probably can be trained not to bite, and I believe that in Jag's mind, he's biting for a very good reason. You mentioned that he knows the people who he bit, but how often are they in your home? Jag probably feels that you guys are his pack and that he wants to protect you. So any intruders, even people who he's met before, are a threat to his family. I think that at heart he's a really good dog who is very confused about his place in the family. Jag thinks that he's the protector of the family, but what he needs to learn is that he is the lowest on the totem pole.

I'm sure that you don't need to be told this, but don't trust him for a second. He might already respect you or your wife, or even your kids as dominant pack members, but he may also try to challenge that at any moment. Jag's bites may only be issued as warnings, but these bites can do serious damage to a human.

I wish that I could offer more advice in regards to training, but I honestly don't know how to safely socialize a confirmed biter with people and teach him not to bite. Hopefully the other users on here have given you enough resources so that you can find a trainer who is experienced with dogs like Jag. I don't think that biting should be a death sentence for a dog, but you also can't sit back and wait for it to happen again.

Again, I wish you guys the best of luck. I also appreciate the fact that you've updated us on Jag, even when we've probably told you things that you don't want to hear.

Lise
May 13th, 2007, 07:34 AM
There is a form of epilepsy that causes almost a split personality.It is mostly in spaniels but also higher than average cases in pointers and reatrievers.It causes unprovoked agression and then the dog is completely normal.Personally I agree that no dog with that many bites should ever be rehomed,the risk is too great.

Rottielover
May 13th, 2007, 08:41 AM
the only thing I can think of would be thyroid,

angeldogs
May 13th, 2007, 01:23 PM
We are going to check for a chemical imbalance in the brain.thats what the drops are for.if if he gets rehomed it will be with out kids.and they would know everything about him.
my brother as a toddler had his face riped open by a dog bite.but it was a small breed.
i will continue to update thank you everyone for your advice and concern.

Dekka
May 14th, 2007, 05:33 PM
I have rehabbed some biting dogs. The JRTRO will take dogs who have bit (JRT rescue) as many of these dogs are biting because they are in inapropriate situtations. And by that I mean homes where ppl can't read 'dog'. You have no idea how many times I have heard the 'the dog bit with no warning' well I can tell you 1 of 3 things is happening. The dog has a medical issue (ie like a brain tumour, epilepsy etc) the dog did warn, and the humans missed it, or the dog had been punished for warning (corrected everytime it growled)

I hope this issue is resolvable. I think you are doing everything right. But one comment, obed training does not cure aggression. You take an aggressive dog and train it, then you have an obedient aggressive dog. (there was a woman I met at the sportsman show when I was manning the JRT rescue booth, who told me about her dog. She sent her aggressive JRT to a trainer. She now has a dog that comes, sits, etc but if you touch it, it will bite and break skin.

Speaking of bites, on Ian Dunbar's scale of bites. http://www.canineaggression.org/page10.html what was the level of the bite inflicted by the dog?

SableCollie
May 14th, 2007, 07:36 PM
You take an aggressive dog and train it, then you have an obedient aggressive dog.
Yes! That's exactly what I was trying to say. :)

From the description, sounded like a level 2 or 3 bite, angeldogs would be able to give an exact answer.

I am curious as to whether a chemical imbalance can be found in jag's brain. However, as described, it sounds like either fear aggression, or resource guarding, with the resource being the home/family.

angeldogs
May 15th, 2007, 01:14 PM
Hi Sablecollie that's what were trying to find out if it is chemical imbalance.that's what the drops were for.and he's more sucky now.and was told it's working.he gets 6 drops a day.were going to another vet.we heard from our vet today and i mentioned about testing for aggresion and she said he didn't need it.

Dekka we are going back to the woman we first seen because we trust her.jag didn't show aggresion to her then so she only did basic ob.this time it's only to acess him for aggression and go from there.she said it sound like him and she thinks it's medical also.if there is no medical is going to come to the house and see if it's resouce aggression.thanks again everyone for your help.and i'm glad you are all here.thanks again i will keep updating.

from the website it was a level 3.the puncture wound wasn't as deep.it took a off little skin and bleed for only a couple of mins.

SableCollie
May 15th, 2007, 01:48 PM
What are the drops called? I'm just curious as to how they test for a chemical imbalance. Wasn't he having some health or digestive problems in the past too? I would definitely get everything physical checked out first, I hope the other vet is more open to health testing than your first vet.

I hope you do figure out the reason for his aggression soon! :fingerscr

~michelle~
May 15th, 2007, 03:40 PM
how about muzzling/ crating him when company is over??? maybe you can find an adopter who is willing to take the dog, doesnt have kids or alot of visitors?

angeldogs
May 16th, 2007, 06:24 AM
SableCollie.the drops are called Azmira
certified ingredients.30c&200c each,in 20%
ethanol &distilled water
Chicory,Holly,Impatiens,Rock Rose,Vine.
i'm going to see if my brother can ask his friend.their boy was tested for it.i will post the answer.we thought he might have had a problem digesting bone.we were going through some bad runs with bone in it.i was giving to much bone.then still runs so we thought it could be raw.it was his favorite food causing it.turkey and he was chewing at his paws.took a way turkey runs stopped.poor boy.of all the food he would get the mild zommies when the turkey came out.he could get to it quick enough.

~michelle~.we have been crateing him and musseling him.my wife hd company the other day crated him.and we the friend said it's ok jag i quess he calmed right down and left in the crate till they left.from my side door we have access to the kitchen and down stairs.so i'm putting the door back on the kitchen and moving the crate down stairs.so when he needs out he won't be able to get upstairs till the quest leave.

gomez
May 16th, 2007, 07:33 AM
right, I have been debating on posting this since the thread started, and here it goes...

PLEASE, please don't flame me...

I have a friend, whenever she drinks yellow alcohols, i.e. whisky, dark rum, etc... gets drunk very quickly and gets very agitated and sometimes violent - it is a chemical imbalance that is greatly exacerbated by these types of alcohol...

Is there even the slightest, most remote possibility that raw diet does not agree with Jag? Is it possible that the raw protein creates some kind of chemical imbalance in this particular dog?

Just something to think about...not the premise for arguments...

pitgrrl
May 16th, 2007, 08:49 AM
SableCollie.the drops are called Azmira
certified ingredients.30c&200c each,in 20%
ethanol &distilled water
Chicory,Holly,Impatiens,Rock Rose,Vine.


I hope I don't come off sounding like an as* by asking this, but you posted that these drops are to indicate a chemical imbalance, but from the above post it looks like they are a homeopathic remedy or flower essence blend. Are they the Azmira Flower Essence for Aggression?

Though I have no doubt that these may help the issue(s), it's not the same thing as testing for a chemical imbalance, I would hope that your vet did not lead you to believe that. Maybe I'm just confused?

angeldogs
May 16th, 2007, 01:01 PM
Pitgrrl.there not from the vet.and yes they are homopathic.there from my trainer to see if it helps.she said if there was a chemical imbalance it would help with it.but not cure it and to let her know when she goes to access him.till we can get into see a new vet and get that tested and other health issues that would cause aggression.

gypsy_girl
May 16th, 2007, 02:16 PM
I have found biofeedback VERY useful in determining source origin for issues such as yours. In works on a nutrition level, emotional level, etc
I am sure you would have someone in your area that can help with this
Here is a link that talks about it
http://www.energyconnection.org/

~michelle~
May 16th, 2007, 08:29 PM
id there something about the people he has bit? smoking, alcohol, prescription med change, perfumes? maybe theres something about the person and the chemicals in their body, the pheromones that caused him to bite

happycats
May 16th, 2007, 08:55 PM
It's great that your are doing all that you can for Jag, and I do hope that you get to the bottom of this and that it's fixable and that you your family and Jag can spend many happy years together!!:fingerscr :goodvibes:

angeldogs
May 17th, 2007, 04:46 AM
Thanks for the info pitgrrl.
Thank you happycats
~michelle~Maybe.My buddy doesn't smoke and wasn't wearing any after shave.the wifes friend i don't know.
we were at the regular park across the street yesterday off lead and jag was playing with another puppy and jag paid no mind to the owner.

angeldogs
May 17th, 2007, 04:52 AM
Gomez.i was wondering that also.the vet said no raw diet wouldn't cause it.

technodoll
May 21st, 2007, 11:36 PM
angeldogs, any update on jag?... is he still with you? :grouphug:

angeldogs
May 21st, 2007, 11:55 PM
Yep he's still here.i was looking for a new vet.called the one my O.B told me to call.hadn't heard back from her yet.so calling tomorrow.he's been fine now.it all happened right after my bro moved out.my mom thinks thats what caused it all.but still going to talk to a new vet and she what she thinks and what test should be done.

chico2
May 22nd, 2007, 07:34 AM
Angeldogs,that sounds good,I was a little afraid to open this post:dog:

Hunter's_owner
May 22nd, 2007, 08:06 AM
Yep he's still here.i was looking for a new vet.called the one my O.B told me to call.hadn't heard back from her yet.so calling tomorrow.he's been fine now.it all happened right after my bro moved out.my mom thinks thats what caused it all.but still going to talk to a new vet and she what she thinks and what test should be done.

That sounds good Angeldogs. Thank You so very much for trying so hard:thumbs up

angeldogs
May 22nd, 2007, 01:58 PM
Thanks ladies.were trying.we keep him crated when company is over.he goes nuts wanting to play with the kids.we were on a walking trail yesterday and the wife walked him.instead of me all the time.he didn't bother with anybody.even some other dogs.but 2 and him and them wanted to play.

Prin
May 22nd, 2007, 06:59 PM
:grouphug: More luck! :fingerscr

angeldogs
May 23rd, 2007, 03:47 AM
Thanks Prin