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anti BARF ???

gomez
April 22nd, 2007, 09:02 PM
Right, there have been several hundred posts regarding the benefits of feeding raw and why everyone should be doing it

HOWEVER

There are many people who don't feed raw and they have heir own specific reasons...

Let's hear them here




ps - this is just curiosity on my part, not pot stirring....

meb999
April 22nd, 2007, 09:09 PM
WEll, I know I'll get told that I didn'T «DO IT RIGHT» (don't bother telling me, because I've heard it before) but here's my reason :

It made my dog VIOLENTLY ill. VIOLENTLY -- I mean emergency vet appointement violent.

I've tried on 3 seperate occasions, doing everything that you're supposed to do -- the supplements, the fasting, etc etc. I've tried with 2 different meat sources....

It's just not for us.

I'm pretty fed up of being made to feel like a bad owner because I feed kibble...one of the reasons I'm not here as much.....

meb999
April 22nd, 2007, 09:10 PM
I know I'll get flamed...so I'm gonna go now http://bestsmileys.com/peeping/5.gif

Prin
April 22nd, 2007, 09:11 PM
1. Cost
2. Efficiency
3. Balance
4. Mess

:)

Frenchy
April 22nd, 2007, 09:14 PM
I'm pretty fed up of being made to feel like a bad owner because I feed kibble...one of the reasons I'm not here as much.....

Well you're not going to get it from me. I too heard a lot of dogs getting sick with raw. I don't think it's healthy for us, neither for our dogs. :shrug:

geisha
April 22nd, 2007, 09:32 PM
It's a very personal decision. You know what's best for you & your pup. I am very concerned about contamination so I keep the counter,fridge, utensils, food bowls & floors cleaner. If my dogs didn't do so well on 1/2 & 1/2 I'd be feeding kibble full time. :grouphug:

Byrd
April 22nd, 2007, 09:34 PM
Basically the same as Prin. It seems to be a lot of work. Not to mention the barf factor of my dog chewing on a chicken foot or whatnot.

However, I do make homemade and give her that and kibble. Before anyone says anything about the amount of work, it takes me an hour or so a month to do homemade.


Oh, and I'm not anti-BARF, it's just not for me.

Lukka'sma
April 22nd, 2007, 09:48 PM
I am not opposed to feeding raw or kibble. I think that whatever works for each individual dog is what should be fed.
I happen to feed kibble.

sissani
April 22nd, 2007, 10:01 PM
1. Cost
2. Efficiency
3. Balance
4. Mess

:)

Same here.

technodoll
April 22nd, 2007, 10:02 PM
my dog was sooo sick on kibble, and not muct better on home-cooked... raw was just the best thing for him. my two are entirely raw-fed and i would never feed a commercial diet (ie kibble), which while convenient for the owner, is not convenient for the dog IMO.

How I see things: if i wouldn't feed myself that way (eating an entirely processed, artificial diet), why would I feed it to my kids? :eek: Yeah it's not always convenient, it's messy, it takes chunks of my time on some days, i had to do some research before feeding this way - and so what? :shrug:

ps: feeding raw is *cheaper* than feeding kibble, for me. and no vet bills, nuthin'... i love it :)

meb999
April 22nd, 2007, 10:10 PM
i would never feed a commercial diet (ie kibble), which while convenient for the owner, is not convenient for the dog IMO.


see? I'm a baaaaaaaad owner.....http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/aaa.gif

oh! and I'm not 'anti' barf -- it just isn't for everyone. even if that does make me a baaaad mommy!

gomez
April 22nd, 2007, 10:12 PM
oi!!! techno!!

that's pro-barf....

like I said, many, many testimonials as to why BARF, I want "why not BARF"

;) ;)


and btw, all, I did not necessarily mean "anti" in the sense that you are mortally opposed to it, just that you don't want to feed it...

you are not a bad mommy, MEB, I also don't feed raw and Gomez is perfectly healthy....

Hunter's_owner
April 22nd, 2007, 10:13 PM
I feed kibble as well. :shrug:

I am becoming more interested in raw feeding, but I don't think I will ever step over the line:o

:thumbs up to those who do it and their dogs thrive on it, but for me and my dogs, their kibble works well for them.

Prin
April 22nd, 2007, 10:14 PM
my two are entirely raw-fed and i would never feed a commercial diet (ie kibble), which while convenient for the owner, is not convenient for the dog IMO. Kibble is convenient for both. They can get multiple meats they wouldn't get otherwise, along with balance most of us would never be able to achieve feeding raw.

IMO, there's kibble, canned, homecooked and raw and all are equally acceptable options.. You just have to do whatever works best for your dog. And THAT makes you a good owner. Feeding raw to a dog who doesn't digest it or doesn't want it is just as bad as feeding kibble to a dog who doesn't tolerate it.

A bad owner is somebody who sticks to feeding a particular way when the dog obviously is not doing well on it, be it kibble, canned, homecooked or raw.

technodoll
April 22nd, 2007, 10:14 PM
LOL meb999 i know you're being sarcastic, no need to be... it's all about personal opinions here right? i know all the trouble you had with poor buster :grouphug: you tried everything and have been to hell and back! i'm not convinced a home-cooked diet wouldn't be better for him than kibble, but you are the mom, you are the one dealing with him so it's all good. All I'm saying is that i personally would never feed kibble to my dog no matter what :shrug:

remember this is not a combat zone, it's about sharing experiences and opinions on various ways of feeding. I'm not pro-kibble, and I am expressing why :)

PS: prin that was a very good post BTW :-)

gomez
April 22nd, 2007, 10:17 PM
I'm not pro-kibble




Don't make me come back there!!

technodoll
April 22nd, 2007, 10:25 PM
Don't make me come back there!!

:D am i gonna get put in the corner? :eek: :laughing:

gomez
April 22nd, 2007, 10:34 PM
Yes. And both beanies will be sitting ON you....

:p

technodoll
April 22nd, 2007, 10:38 PM
:eek: now that is terrible! i gonna suffocate and be licked to death! noooooooooooooooo

please don't feed them lentils before the punishment :sad:

:D

TeriM
April 22nd, 2007, 11:46 PM
IMO, there's kibble, canned, homecooked and raw and all are equally acceptable options.. You just have to do whatever works best for your dog. And THAT makes you a good owner. Feeding raw to a dog who doesn't digest it or doesn't want it is just as bad as feeding kibble to a dog who doesn't tolerate it.
A bad owner is somebody who sticks to feeding a particular way when the dog obviously is not doing well on it, be it kibble, canned, homecooked or raw.

Well said :) .

I started Lucy on raw 8 years ago. She had horrible allergies and chronic ear infections. It worked amazing well for us and I jumped on the raw bandwagon with all the gusto in the world. I still believe that raw is/can be a fabulous choice but I have also come to embrace other choices as well. I get somewhat annoyed when raw advocates get "preachy" and compare their results to a dog that eats a poor quality kibble. IMO, the quality of available kibble/canned choices that are available now versus 8 years ago is unbelievable and is a healthy choice particularly when supplemented with fresh foods. I personally know dogs that have been very sick on raw and although I have had great results I firmly believe that there are risks and possibly some long term negative health effects and that the raw "movement" glosses over that information. I know the risks and choose to feed it but I really would prefer to feed a home-cooked diet but realistically I know that isn't gonna happen with two large dogs.

I feed Riley kibble and supplement it with some raw meats, canned salmon, fruits/veggies etc. Lucy now has kibble (grain-free) in the morning and raw at night. If anything, I think she does better on that then on the all raw.

angeldogs
April 23rd, 2007, 12:09 AM
I was feeding innova.and was thinking of going to timberwolf.and reading raw here and 2 of the workers at the pet food store feed raw.so i switched.
i want the best that i can give jag.and i'm always being told jags not my pet dog he's my third kid.all but the runny poops.he's doing good.on kibble his weight was up and down.and since on raw his weight has maintained unless he's put some weight on.and maintains it.his coat is shiner.softer.he doesn't have that doggy smell as much.his teeth are better.and he drinks less.but if kibble was the best for him thats what he would be on.what's best for him and how he does on it is what matters most.just like my skin kids.i try to give them the best i can.

Maya
April 23rd, 2007, 02:06 AM
When and if I get another cat or dog I will definitely try raw as a first choice. I suspect the problems that do occur with it are from previously being on a kibble diet. ANY diet switch is going to be a shock to the system though IMO. Its nice that there are more healthy choices now when it comes to manufactured food and I also agree that in some cases that may be better for certain dogs/cats, mainly because most people are not willing or unable to spend the time to fine tune the raw diet specifically for thier pets needs. I think if someone is dead set against raw period then they are likely not all that educated anyway. It isn't very scientific to make an assumption that raw is bad from only a few personal experiences. :p That is my.:2cents: :)

Prin
April 23rd, 2007, 02:54 AM
Too lazy to fine tune? Meb's Buster almost died on raw. If your beloved pet nearly died from it, would you keep trying when there are amazing kibbles that work for your pet? Just as many of the people whose animals are sick or have died from the melamine tainted kibble won't feed kibble again, people whose animals have come close to death on raw aren't likely to try raw again anytime soon.

It's about time we respect each other's decisions and move on.

Most of the people who post in the dog food forum have researched their dogs' food. We're not feeding kibble because we're ignorant, stupid, uneducated, uninformed, or lazy. We feed kibble because we've weighed the pros and cons of every diet and we believe kibble is a better option for our particular pets. We all have our reasons, just as the raw feeders have their reasons for feeding raw.

There aren't many kibble feeders here who think raw is terrible. Sure, there are vets out there who hate it, and a lot of people who hate it, but IMO, most of us here think raw is an option, as I said before. And in return for having an open mind about raw, we get belittled and talked down to as though we are abusing our dogs. And I'm not just talking about techno. She gets the brunt of the criticism here, and that's not particularly fair. :shrug: It's the raw feeder mentality- well, not all raw feeders, let's say the "nouveau raw" mentality. ;)

You can push your raw without putting down my kibble, just like I can help people with kibble without dissing raw. :shrug:

x.l.r.8
April 23rd, 2007, 03:37 AM
Well I must say I sit on both sides if the fence. I, like many others fed crap, then through education I found out what I was doing (mostly through people like Prin (the goddess of label dissection) rainbow and many others taking the time to educate me) was wrong and why. To feed a good diet is to use your own judgement and educate yourself about what is going into the food, be it either a good kibble or BARF SARF RAW. I would hate to see the Iams feeder undertake a RAW diet without doing some research first, it would be the same research that would change the bag from Iams to Innova (just examples).
For me it was a way to get away from processed foods and the uncertain quality if the ingredients. I dipped my toe in the water and I like what I felt, this may well not be for others and I would rather see a progression from crap grocery brand to, a quality kibble with an understanding of what they are doing. Than a gigantic leap to the unknown on the strength of a few testomonies. It's all about what your comfortable with.
It seems only yesterday I was walking out the store with a bag if Iams large puppy with a big grin on my face because I spent the extra on a quality kibble than the store's own brand, I was doing right by my dog (so I thought). Then I found Pets.ca and my world shattered and I had to go and learn some horrible truths. Those same truths pushed me into RAW eventually but I was also happy with the diet I chose (other than the way it was made)
and I still have more time to talk to people about choosing better kibble than undertaking a raw diet. I have 2 people at work who are on the road to raw, but there are 20 that now gang up on anyone using grocery store food, it's like a kibble revolution in the staff lounge.:highfive:

angeldogs
April 23rd, 2007, 04:38 AM
I tried my girl on raw and it's not for her.she's picky.right now sh still on canadie with cooked.and i picked up a small sample of orijen for $1.99.
and try her with that and see how that works with her.she's an 8 year old shih tzu so i got her the senior.i work with people who think i'm crazy for feeding raw and their feeding iams or dog chow and think it's the best and the better kibble is the same thing but more money.and i tell them to come here and do some reading.and they don't.they say it's only a dog they don't need anything fancy.so i'm feeding both ways.

gomez
April 23rd, 2007, 04:58 AM
Yikes, I take Gomez to the park for a little while and my thread goes WAAAAYYYY off track!!

This was not mean to be an "ode to raw"....

It was meant to be a a "why I don't feed raw"

I just wanted to see both sides of the argument, being as there are sooo many "FEED RAW!" threads and no "DON'T FEED RAW!" threads

I don't think BARF is bad or good, I think it totally depends on the person and the dog, I won't expand on this thought as Prin has done it so well just here.

Gomez gets kibble, Eagle Pack Holistic, and does extremely well on it.

I can't imagine, given the way he eats, giving him a raw piece of meat or meaty bone to drag around the house, smearing the carpet, the walls, his fur, our legs, etc etc... I mean, talk about cross contamination!!! He drags a chicken frame all all over the place and then we touch it, touch our faces or mouth without thinking and BAM, gastro.

Also, the boy does not chew, he swallows, I would hate to be making emergency runs to the animal hospital to dislodge a chicken wing...

Also, being in the food industry, I worry way too much about the quality of raw meats purchased to be eaten raw... even by a dog...

Also, we travel and he stays with various people at various times, I cannot force them to give him raw meat inside the house either, that would just be wrong. Or we travel and he ocmes with us and I have to pack a cooler with raw meat? nah.

Finally, I'm also not sure I would want to worry about Gomez sitting on me after eating lentils...!!!:eek:

SO there you have it -

Now back our regular programming!


oh and ps - I am not un-educated, thank you....

clm
April 23rd, 2007, 08:25 AM
I've followed threads here on the raw diets, and while I find them interesting, they're not something I would consider.
I like to find a high quality kibble and mix it with a high quality canned, complimented with some home cooked from time to time for both my cats and my dogs.
I'm ducking from the raw feeders now, but in my opinion cats are better suited to a raw diet than dogs anyway. Cats eat what they catch if given the opportunity and if they are so inclined....any cat can and most will do this. Precious few dogs hunt and eat live prey....there are some, I knew of a doberman breeder whose biggest most beautiful red female hunted for rats, voles and rabbits and they were her main source of nutrition. She had the option of eating kibble, but this dog liked to hunt and eat what she caught, but these dogs are the exception, not the norm. Even my dog Yogi would eat any voles or other treats the cats caught and didn't eat and that I didn't notice before he did so I could remove them, no harm done, and he didn't get ill from it, but these were little animals with little bones and eaten fur and all.
Most of the dogs I've known who kill chickens, do just that, kill them, they don't eat them like a fox or a wolf would, even known some to run and kill the occassional deer, but they didn't eat them, so to compare a domestic dog to a wolf or fox is just too big a stretch, again, only my opinion, to justify feeding a raw diet because it's a more natural diet for them. If it's a raw diet, then the fur and the innerds of the annimal should be included, again, only my opinion.
I'm not bashing raw, and I'm sure there are some dogs who thrive on it, but I'll never go there with any of my dogs. My indoor outdoor cats have the option of eating what they catch, but I'll not bring in live mice and rats for the inside cats to see if they'd like a little back to nature food. :laughing:

Cindy

Puppyluv
April 23rd, 2007, 09:41 AM
but in my opinion cats are better suited to a raw diet than dogs anyway.

Wait, so are you saying that dogs are better suited for a kibble diet? because if, as a species, they're better suited to kibble, then that wouldbe because nature designed them that way, and I really can't imagine any form of genetic evolution leading to a species that was designed to eat man-made lumps of food. Some dogs don't do well on raw, but I also bet that if those dogs were fed raw from the get go, they wouldn't have problems. Generally, we don't have much choice about what they were fed before they came to us, so there's not much we can do about that, but saying that the breed is not suited to raw meat just seems odd to me.

clm
April 23rd, 2007, 09:48 AM
Like I said, just my opinion. You don't have to like it, but I'm entitled to one too :)

Cindy

clm
April 23rd, 2007, 09:51 AM
I also said, in my opinion, that if they're going to eat raw, it should be flesh, bones innerds and fur....there again....just my opinion.

Cindy

golfgirl
April 23rd, 2007, 10:01 AM
Interesting thread! Personally, with all the recalls, I think raw is the way to go-HOWEVER, I have a shih-poo with alot of beard and moustache and I wont feed raw because we let her "kiss" us, face and all and I simply can't be bothered disinfecting her face every time she eats! I also like the idea of having kibble (evo) out for her to eat when she is hungry as she has never been a great eater. I also suppliment with some home cooked at dinnertime (which I recently started doing-prior I used innova canned) as my husband cannot eat his dinner without "sharing" with our puppy-so I make up a plate of home cooked for him to give her knowing that table scraps are not the best. This seems to solve the problem with hubby and at least I know what is in her wet food!

Lissa
April 23rd, 2007, 10:04 AM
Minnow's not on raw or homecooked because she flat out refuses:o...

Dodger was on kibble as a puppy (because I was worried about balancing everything out when he was growing)... He's on raw now but I still buy a bag of Innova/Orijen once in a while to use as training treats.

Scott_B
April 23rd, 2007, 10:18 AM
I'm anti BARF. I'm pro raw though ;)

BARF diet has far too much bone, veggies & supplements.

Keep it simple, feed a variety of meats and supplement if the dog needs them, like Fish oil if you cant feed fish.

The whole mess thing, not an issue. From day 1 I taught Rosco to eat on a towel. He stays on that towel when eating. If what hes eating rolls off, a quick "on your towel" and hes grabs whatever and places it back on the towel. Then i just toss the towel in the wash. Simple. Cleaning is simple. you just keep your house clean. No different then if i was preparing a meal for myself. I wash my hands and clean up after myself.
Convenience, again, simple. I take out what I'm going to feed that day and toss it in the sink in some cold water. t thaws, i place on a towel and he eats. Cant get much simpler then that.
Cost..I'm not spending any more on a raw diet then i am on kibble. Less actually.

Now, do i think all dogs can do great on Raw? yes and no. With enough time maybe all could, but not all can so easily. I think Meb did a great job with finding a diet that works with Buster. I don't think anyone thinks you're a bad owner. I know i don't.

Raw is not new here. Kibble is. Kibble has only been around for 60 odd years. Before that it was raw/home-cooked. I'm not anti kibble, but i know exactly what it is. A way to get rid of by products that humans don't eat/need. With that said, there are some quality kibbles being made now. Much better ingredients, quality, etc but I still don't feel that kibble is a natural diet to our dogs & cats.

Finally, i think everyone should feed their pets what ever they feel is best for them. but know WHAT your feeding.

gomez
April 23rd, 2007, 10:46 AM
Woohooo! back on track -

When we first got Gomez as a puppy, the breeder told us to give him little balls of raw beef mince for one of his meals - he was puking and pooing like crazy - off the raw meat and onto Burns' kibble and has been healty ever since, so we did get him form the start, but his little system just could not digest it apparently...

As for the fur and all... I had not thought of that, it would make sense, wouldn't it? Maybe all dogs miss a good mouth full of fur and blood?

Lissa, great example of how some dogs "do" and some dogs "don't"! You can't force one to eat raw if they don't want to!

Scott, the stuff that rolls off the towel, do you disinfect the floor afterwards every time? and do you disinfect your washing machine every time?

Mind you a keep a VERY clean house, and I can't imagine trying to disinfect everything twice a day....


As an aside, in a lot of Latin countries people just feed their dogs whatever they are eating for dinner, no adjustments, so if it's a spicy enchilada and beans and rice they have, it's what the dog gets, cultural differences also play a big role on this subject....

geisha
April 23rd, 2007, 11:02 AM
Hi great thread! Yesterday I bought some elk & beef "balls" from a farmer/rancher who raises them about 2 hours northeast of here. She raises hormone free, gov't inspected, organic. My butcher at the farmer's market also sells beef & chicken that is hormone free, etc BARF. Hmm I was wondering Scott how do you know if your prey model raw is hormone free? not feedlot? I could buy prey model from the butcher but why?

happycats
April 23rd, 2007, 11:15 AM
WEll, I know I'll get told that I didn'T «DO IT RIGHT» (don't bother telling me, because I've heard it before) but here's my reason :

It made my dog VIOLENTLY ill. VIOLENTLY -- I mean emergency vet appointement violent.

I've tried on 3 seperate occasions, doing everything that you're supposed to do -- the supplements, the fasting, etc etc. I've tried with 2 different meat sources....

It's just not for us.

I'm pretty fed up of being made to feel like a bad owner because I feed kibble...one of the reasons I'm not here as much.....


Aww Mebs You are a great owner, and there is no doubt in my mind that you would do anything for your pets!! (and please come here more often)

That being said, to each his own.
Don't judge peoples love for their pets based on what they feed?!

IMO a bad owner is someone who abuses, ties up outside, dumps,doesn't feed at all, doesn't go to vets when needed and doesn't spay of neuter. Not what they feed their pet/s.

My cat's eat dry kibble (always 2 large bowls available at all times) and a table spoon of canned at dinner time as a treat. They also get plenty of leftover's;)

Just wondering, do all these strict RAW feeders practise what they preach?
Do you all eat a strictly healthy diet? No junk foods what so ever? no processed foods? If not then doesn't that make you a hypocrite when you preach to kibble feeders?:shrug: JMO:)

Puppyluv
April 23rd, 2007, 11:20 AM
Just wondering, do all these strict RAW feeders practise what they preach?
Do you all eat a strictly healthy diet? No junk foods what so ever? no processed foods? If not then doesn't that make you a hypocrite when you preach to kibble feeders?:shrug: JMO:)

Personally, I don't eat fried foods, I don't eat fast food, I don't eat sugary foods. I eat a lot of fruit, veggies, lean protein and whole grains. But that's me.

BUT.

It's completely different. It is my body, and I can do whatever the hell I want to it, but my dog's body is not mine, and I have no right to give her crap. I believe that raw is the best food I can give her (with some supplemented cooked schtuff) and that's what I give her.
It's just like parents often feed their kids the healthy organic food, and then sneak themselves a cookie or two when their kids aren't looking. Your body and your kids or your pets bodies are different things, what right do I have to poisen my dog?

Lissa
April 23rd, 2007, 11:27 AM
Just wondering, do all these strict RAW feeders practise what they preach?
Do you all eat a strictly healthy diet? No junk foods what so ever? no processed foods? If not then doesn't that make you a hypocrite when you preach to kibble feeders?:shrug: JMO:)

I definately do not - I eat junk all the time:o !:p But I look at is I choose to eat unhealthy foods, Dodger doesn't have that choice so I need to feed him what I know is best (not what he thinks is best - if that were the case, he'd eat Ol'roy:D)... I don't think it makes me a hypocrite at all - I know better, Dodger does not! I think it should only matter that I practice what I preach when it comes to a canine diet, not mine!

Gomez - Minnow is a cat but it still apply's - not all pets are meant for raw.:)

happycats
April 23rd, 2007, 11:39 AM
I definately do not - I eat junk all the time:o !:p But I look at is I choose to eat unhealthy foods, Dodger doesn't have that choice so I need to feed him what I know is best (not what he thinks is best - if that were the case, he'd eat Ol'roy:D)... I don't think it makes me a hypocrite at all - I know better, Dodger does not! I think it should only matter that I practice what I preach when it comes to a canine diet, not mine!

Gomez - Minnow is a cat but it still apply's - not all pets are meant for raw.:)

OMG not only am I a horrible pet owner (feed kibble)
I'm a horrible parent too!!:yell: (my son is a chocoholic like me):sad:

Just shoot me!:p :D

technodoll
April 23rd, 2007, 11:48 AM
A friend of mine once told me "if you ate half as well as your dogs do, you'd feel alot better". :eek: :o I took her advice and changed the way I eat... cut down fast-food and processed food a good 90%, same for sugary and fatty foods, junk, colas, etc. And yeah, i feel a TON better, I look better, etc. I still toss my kids some "junk treats" once in a while, ie a milk-bone cookie, a frozen bagel, a piece of cheese - just like when I get the urge for a bite of chocolate I go for it. Life is not about strict rules and unbending absolutes IMO... but following basic and general guidelines of "you are what you eat" sure has changed my life around.

Like Puppyluv and Lissa and others have said... my dogs are my responsibility, they can't choose what to eat so I am trying to do the best by them, according to my standards and beliefs, built on logic, common sense, research and experience. And I see the results, it's so encouraging! (results for me and for them, LOL)

oops is this going :offtopic: ??? sorry!!! :footinmouth:

off to eat my salad now.. :p

happycats
April 23rd, 2007, 12:06 PM
I guess what I am trying to say is, some people can't afford, can't handle, don't want to feed BARF RAW, and shouldn't feel bad for it. IMO it doesn't make one a "bad pet owner" .

By all means feed your pets whatever you want, just please don't judge the kibble feeders:D

Scott_B
April 23rd, 2007, 12:20 PM
Scott, the stuff that rolls off the towel, do you disinfect the floor afterwards every time? and do you disinfect your washing machine every time?

Nope. If he noticeable spills something then a quick shot of vinegar and water and its wiped up, As for disinfecting the washing machine, hell with that. I suppose if a wash needed bleach then sure, but i don't get in and scrub the machine lol.

I refuse to be a bacteria freak. Its everywhere. On the ground, on sticks, grass, rocks, everywhere in the environment. I don't wash/disinfect my pups paws every time he walks in the door from the outside. thats just silly. But I'm not stupid. If its dirty, I'll clean it. I keep my counters clean, and practice good personal hygiene.

Also, prey model doesn't have to mean fur included. If you choose to feed fur, thats great. Prey model is to try and get as close to a whole prey animal you can. Obviously most of us cant feed a whole wild buffalo, so maybe we use some buffalo meat, along with a beef heart, and a liver, maybe a pigs tongue, and so on to make up that prey. Thats prey model feeding. A variety of meats bones and organs over a period of time.


Originally Posted by happycats
Just wondering, do all these strict RAW feeders practise what they preach?
Do you all eat a strictly healthy diet? No junk foods what so ever? no processed foods? If not then doesn't that make you a hypocrite when you preach to kibble feeders? JMO

Not at all. There is a HUGE difference being on a healthy diet and getting a treat every now and then compared to eating processed food every meal for your entire life. I can eat healthy and treat myself to a big mac once in a blue moon. Thats totally different then eating MacDonald's three times a day for my entire life. Come on now. :rolleyes:

Don't judge peoples love for their pets based on what they feed?!


If you know how bad ****** and other ****ty foods are and continue to feed them, what excuse do you have? If you saw a parent feeding their small child MacDonald's EVERY meal, every day, would you not consider that abuse? I would. Of course if you didn't know better, then you can't fault the owner/parent for ignorence.

Maya
April 23rd, 2007, 12:24 PM
yes I agree with happycats. And just because i would like to try raw and believe it should be better in most cases DOESN'T mean it is better for everyone. If I had a dog or cat that for whatever reason couldn't handle it or I couldn't do it then of course I would not use it duh. :shrug: We all need to be responsible for our own health and pets health without being pushed by what is popular or what everyone else swears is the best thing. Doing our best and looking at results to how the body reacts should always be the deciding factor. This shouldn't be about "Peer pressure". :p

happycats
April 23rd, 2007, 12:40 PM
If you know how bad Alpo/O'l Roy and other ****ty foods are and continue to feed them, what excuse do you have? If you saw a parent feeding their small child MacDonald's EVERY meal, every day, would you not consider that abuse? I would. Of course if you didn't know better, then you can't fault the owner/parent for ignorence.

I know there are pet owners out there who can't afford any better, but I would rather see them keep their pet, then give up, dump or destroy them because they can't afford great food.

Scott_B
April 23rd, 2007, 12:44 PM
I don't understand this whole Pressure thing.

No one pressured me to feed raw. I never pressure anyone else. Just because I feed raw, doesnt mean I look down at kibble feeders (unless is crap kibble :p ). Heck my cats get kibble. And I don't see anyone pressuring anyone else here. People state why they like one thing over the other. The pro-kibble/anti-raw feeders dont pressure me to feed kibble, so why is it pressure the other way?

Some people just seem so defensive about what they feed. Its like, if I state why i like raw over kibble, then I'm pressuring you to feed raw. Not true. read or don't read what i have to say, thats your choice, and feed what you want. And its never personal, unless your a jacka$$ :p

coppperbelle
April 23rd, 2007, 12:45 PM
I don't think we should criticize anyone for what they feed. We can try and educate others who are interested and wanting to change but to say or insinuate they should not own a pet because they don't feed what you deem to be acceptable is pushing it a bit too far.
I work in a school and yes some kids eat junk everyday. We try to instil better eating habits and don't allow things like chips, chocolate or soft drinks but that is about as far as we can go.
I have my own reasons for not feeding raw although I won't go into them all here. I am not convinced it is the best thing to feed my dogs so I don't, plain and simple. I feel no need to explain why and others should not also. If you want to feed Ol Roy then so be it. Don't feel guilty and feel free to say you do. Some will criticize for sure but you don't need to listen.

Scott_B
April 23rd, 2007, 12:50 PM
I know there are pet owners out there who can't afford any better, but I would rather see them keep their pet, then give up, dump or destroy them because they can't afford great food.

Thats a poor excuse. Ther are some much better kibbles out there that arent expensive and since you feed less, have less vet bills, it actually works out to be cheaper. People just see bag A costing $25 and bag B costing $35 and buy bag A. And chances are they don't realize how $hitty that kibble is in the first place.

JanM
April 23rd, 2007, 12:59 PM
I don't feed raw because Bobby couldn't handle it - he didn't get violently ill but had diarrhea so bad it was awful for the poor boy. I feed kibble - Go Natural Salmon formula - after going through many, many different foods to see what he could handle best and he is now doing well on this one.

Maya
April 23rd, 2007, 02:10 PM
I think at the very least EVERYONE should be looking at ingredients to make sure they are not feeding crap. I did actually think Medi-cal was the best because of my stupid vets but after reading all the information here and working on my own health I know better. It is expensive so there is NO excuse to use it over something better quality. No one can argue with me about costs. I did this for years living on only $500 a month. I wasn't eating better than my cat though thats for sure. There really is no arguement if a person says thier Iams is great. It is sad that even well educated people will chose these brands blindly and defend what they are doing. My racist biology teacher for instance was adamant that Iams was once a vet sold brand and therefore of high quality.:rolleyes:

jessi76
April 23rd, 2007, 02:35 PM
I don't feed Tucker raw because ....

1) I can't afford to. I've been making more and more vegetarian dishes because meats have gotten very pricey in my area, taking up a major portion of my food budget.

2) the lack of sources. I'm NOT going to make extra trips out of my way to get to a butcher. The only butcher in town doesn't supply raw meat for dogs (I've asked).

3) Tucker is temperature picky. Occassionally, I will give him a raw bone, such as a soup bone. I buy them in packs of 2 at the grocery store - and normally freeze one. If it's been frozen - or is still frozen (even a little) - Tucker won't touch it. so I would have to have enough raw things completely defrosted (or fresh) - honestly, I'm not even that good about my own meals. I OFTEN forget to take something out the night before.

4) the prep time. I make homecooked meals for myself and my fiance 6-7 nights a week. After working an 8 hr day, over an hour commute home, and then spending 30-60 min preparing dinner, then eating, then cleaning up.... I DO NOT have an ounce of energy to do "the dog's meals". my weekends are full as it is (I don't have a free afternoon to prep a week of meals), and with a baby on the way.... no. just no. it takes me all of 2 min's to scoop some kibble, add 2 scoops of canned food, mix and viola - dinner is served.

5) the balanced diet and variety. I can BARELY manage to get all of my own food groups in during my meals, to try to determine a balanced diet for the dog is pushin it. I'm lucky if I get our own nutrional needs met during a week.

So by choosing a high quality kibble, and adding to it (canned or home cooked), I feel I'm providing the best possible diet I can afford and manage to obtain. I'm not squeemish about germs, and I actually do own a huge stand up freezer that's not being used, but the cost, the prep, the nutrional vitamins & supplements that are needed, and not having a local place to even BUY affordable meats is what stops me.

Adogsday
April 23rd, 2007, 05:28 PM
I know there are pet owners out there who can't afford any better, but I would rather see them keep their pet, then give up, dump or destroy them because they can't afford great food.

If you can't afford to feed your dog the proper nutrients and diet it requires, then you should not be a dog owner in the first place. Whether it is a high quality kibble or raw, it should be for the best interest of the dog and always a healthy choice. I'm not pro or anti either, I have fed my dogs both, some times I have mixed them together, one of my dogs can only eat certain raw foods, the others can handle anything. As long as you are feeding high quality and you've done your research, feed your pet what you feel is right, either kibble or raw. I personally have not eaten fast food in years, so yes I practice the thought (not preach) of my dog eating high quality food, and I was prepared for the cost of that BEFORE I ever had pets. And everyone should know that owning a pet is not a right, it is a privilege, pets look to us for love/shelter/food and we should always have their best interests in mind, kibble, raw, or canned.. As long as we do that, we are all good parents, just my :2cents:

happycats
April 23rd, 2007, 05:49 PM
If you can't afford to feed your dog the proper nutrients and diet it requires, then you should not be a dog owner in the first place. Whether it is a high quality kibble or raw, it should be for the best interest of the dog and always a healthy choice. I'm not pro or anti either, I have fed my dogs both, some times I have mixed them together, one of my dogs can only eat certain raw foods, the others can handle anything. As long as you are feeding high quality and you've done your research, feed your pet what you feel is right, either kibble or raw. I personally have not eaten fast food in years, so yes I practice the thought (not preach) of my dog eating high quality food, and I was prepared for the cost of that BEFORE I ever had pets. And everyone should know that owning a pet is not a right, it is a privilege, pets look to us for love/shelter/food and we should always have their best interests in mind, kibble, raw, or canned.. As long as we do that, we are all good parents, just my :2cents:


Some people already have pets when they go through financial problems?
I mean I have had cat's for 18 years, and to say I have never struggled financially would be a lie. And yes there were times when I have had to feed my cat's grocery store food, but I believe that was better then dumping them when times got tough.

I feed my cat's petsmart "authority" brand right now, and some here may think is garbage, but my cat's have never been better (healthy , beautiful coats, and my oldest has a sensitive stomach, and this is the first food I have found that hasn't made him sick.

All I am trying to say is don't judge a persons love for, or committment to their pet, based on what they feed them.:)

Mypetsrmykids
April 23rd, 2007, 06:08 PM
And on the light side, my 10 and 13 year olds did not want anything to do with it. I even tried green tripe which I was told that even the most finicky eaters will eat it. Well, not so with my kids. My two 13 year olds looked at me as if to say "and what am I supposed to do with this???" whereas my 10 year old pulled it out of the dish, played with it and was about to start rolling on it (inside the house) and I had to grab it quickly. If anyone knows anything about green tripe, it would probably be equal to getting sprayed by a skunk, LOL :laughing:

erykah1310
April 23rd, 2007, 06:15 PM
All I am trying to say is don't judge a persons love for, or committment to their pet, based on what they feed them.:)

Who judged????:shrug:
I feed raw AND kibble:eek: when im home, the dogs get raw ( except meiko) and when Im away and the dogs are at the sitters... they eat kibble:shrug:
If someone asks about raw, why cant raw feeders voice their opinons? I too think its better than kibble, but raw is NOT always a possiblilty for some people, thats fine. I think for the most part EVERYONE on here agrees that high quality "FOOD" is what we all push. I am unable to think of a specific time someone looked down on a kibble feeder here. However, there have been a few deleted threads.

I have my reasons for feeding raw, and the biggest one is... I find its fun, and the dogs LOVE it. 3 out of 4 of them handle it great and look much better than before.
the "odd man out" also looks great now thanks to the wide variety of advice and help I recieved with Kibble.

Adogsday
April 23rd, 2007, 06:17 PM
All I am trying to say is don't judge a persons love for, or committment to their pet, based on what they feed them.:)

My comment was not to come across as judging, I believe I said feed what's best and we are all good parents. Lots of people can love a pet, it does not mean they make the right decisions for them, especially if they are uneducated decisions about what they put in their pets bodies. All I'm saying is know the cost and feed the best, kibble, raw or canned, I have had financial hard times myself, everyone does, but my dog will always eat the best he can. You can find healthy food choices that don't break the bank, but if you can't feed them what they need, how would you take care of them if they were to get ill? Do the best you can all the time and everyone wins, that is not judging, that is just common sense. :love:

happycats
April 23rd, 2007, 06:27 PM
okay so let me get this straight..........death would be better for a dog then crappy dog food??:shrug:

Yes some feed their pets crappy food, but better that then languishing in a cage or death. JMO

And yes, you can find good food for a reasonable prices, but many either don't know or don't have a pet supply store conveniently located, so grocery store food is all they have.

Adogsday
April 23rd, 2007, 06:42 PM
:offtopic: Happycats I think you are trying to make this into something it is not, which is unfortunate, I am intitled to an opinion just as you are, and I respect yours, as you should mine. I never said to put down any pet!! Erykah1310 I am not trying to be rude in any way to anyone, and I am sorry if it came across that way. The thread is kibble versus raw. That's it. People should feed them the best of each no matter what they chose, it is all in the best interest to our very best friends, our pets.

happycats
April 23rd, 2007, 06:42 PM
Well then, im out of here, I have no idea how horrifically rude that was supposed to come across, but im done.
The only thing I was "implying" was where is this thread coming from? I dont have the faintest idea where everyones panties have become twisted in a ball about food, raw or kibble. The way I have seen it, there has been great advice from both ends, the only time i can think where someone has directly put down kibble is when it comes to pedigree, purina, Ol Roy ect.:shrug:


I don't know.....but I found "who judged????:shrug: " to be rude, like you didn't even read what I was responding too.

That aside I do find this thread to be very informative, with many points of view, and that's great too. everyone has an opinion and a right to express it, without fear of being flamed or slammed .

I am sorry if you were offened, that was not my intention.

happycats
April 23rd, 2007, 06:44 PM
:offtopic: Happycats I think you are trying to make this into something it is not, which is unfortunate, I am intitled to an opinion just as you are, and I respect yours, as you should mine. I never said to put down any pet!! And I am not trying to be rude in any way to anyone. The thread is kibble versus raw. That's it. People should feed them the best of each no matter what they chose, it is all in the best interest to our very best friends, our pets.


OMG now how is what I posted being rude to you????

Let's just get along so this thread doesn't get closed!

Carnac
April 23rd, 2007, 06:47 PM
Please get back on topic.

Puppyluv
April 23rd, 2007, 06:48 PM
Personally, I find this thread kind of oppressive. Especially when the OP comes on and "reprimands" raw-feeders for not giving an Anti-raw annecdote. Seriously, you can't start a thread and say "No, you can't reply like that, I don't like your response. Tsk Tsk."

erykah1310
April 23rd, 2007, 06:53 PM
Happy cats, I am beyond touchy right now, and have been for the last few days. One major downfall to the internet, cant read tone.
Sorry to over react as well as blunty type "who judged" I should have elaborated more I know.
However, ON TOPIC and them Im gone.
There are downfalls to BOTH diets.
Kibble- trusting complete strangers to feed your dogs or cats. No control of what is going in each meal, imported ingredients that could poision your pet, fillers!

And from a "pro raw" standpoint: the downfalls of raw.
Raw- Except for certain circumstances, there is no way to know the source of your meat, Lots of work, hazards )ie choking, perforations, intestinal blockages ect.), bacteria ( although not a big concern of mine) and for some, not researching thourougly ( again, not for all "raw gone bad " situations)

K9Friend
April 23rd, 2007, 07:49 PM
I'm interested in the BARF diet but not convinced YET this is what's best for my pooch. Right now, she's healthy & doing great with kibble.

Thought this article was interesting (The BARF diet - a critique):

http://www.worldwidehealth.com/article.php?id=104

Frenchy
April 23rd, 2007, 08:43 PM
Right, there have been several hundred posts regarding the benefits of feeding raw and why everyone should be doing it

HOWEVER

There are many people who don't feed raw and they have heir own specific reasons...

Let's hear them here






The question was ; for those who don't feed raw,what are the reasons.

Puppyluv
April 23rd, 2007, 08:52 PM
The question was ; for those who don't feed raw,what are the reasons.

and those of us who do aren't allowed to say anything? People who don't feed raw still pipe up in raw-positive threads, but you don't see any of the raw feeders saying "No! You're off topic! Stop it! I want to only know about why raw is good!"?

happycats
April 23rd, 2007, 09:03 PM
and those of us who do aren't allowed to say anything? People who don't feed raw still pipe up in raw-positive threads, but you don't see any of the raw feeders saying "No! You're off topic! Stop it! I want to only know about why raw is good!"?

I don't think this was meant to start conflict between raw and kibble feeders.

If we all had the same opinion, this place would be pretty boring, and everyone has the right to post their opinions in any thread, as long as it's done in a respectfull manner.

technodoll
April 23rd, 2007, 09:25 PM
this is worse than a Stanley Cup finals game, Montreal vs Toronto! LOL :laughing:

Prin
April 23rd, 2007, 11:36 PM
Crappy food sucks. Good food rocks. That's the jist of it. Form is secondary. :)

I think where this thread went off the tracks was when the OP asked why people don't feed raw, and the raw feeders basically said "They don't feed raw because..."

My turn to get preachy. :D

It's one thing to plug raw. It's a whole other thing pushing kibble down while you do it, and vice versa. That's just unnecessary. If everybody kept their comments personal, we probably wouldn't clash as much. By personal, I mean, "I feed kibble because I know my dogs and I've researched everything and I feel this is the best choice for my dogs." Not personal is "People don't feed kibble because they're too lazy to scoop it out of the bag." You know what I mean? Say what you do and what you've decided on without implying things of others. :)

End preach/ :D

:grouphug:

gomez
April 23rd, 2007, 11:52 PM
Personally, I find this thread kind of oppressive. Especially when the OP comes on and "reprimands" raw-feeders for not giving an Anti-raw annecdote. Seriously, you can't start a thread and say "No, you can't reply like that, I don't like your response. Tsk Tsk."

Awwwww Puppyluv, don't be like that! I was just trying to get it back on track and focused!

Please don't be offended, like I said, I started this post to see the other side of things, which isn't always discussed or obvious, NOT as a pot-stirring excercise...

There have been some great posts in here, it's always good to see the other side of the coin, don't you think?

TeriM
April 24th, 2007, 12:27 AM
From the BARF critique article that K9Friend posted.

I agree with Dr Billinghurst that nutrition is the most important factor influencing health and I agree that the majority of the illness we see in pets is related to feeding commercial pet foods. I have no doubt that the type and quality of ingredients e.g. soya, cereal and animal bi-products, wheat, chemical adulterants which go into most commercial foods are largely responsible for this.

I am sure that the BARF Diet is effective for many pets and their owners but my own experience confounds Dr Billinghurst's claim that his is the only correct way.
Because of the diversity of the dog population there will undoubtedly be some dogs who will do better on a raw/BARF diet than on a cooked diet. But the opposite is equally true.

My experience over a number of years of recommending a diet based on unrefined cereals, vegetables and meats, whether cooked at home or commercially prepared, is that this acts holistically to provide health benefits equal to those claimed for the BARF diet.

My main criticism of the BARF philosophy is its self-righteousness. BARFism argues with a certainty which bears comparison to religious fundamentalism; it brooks no dissent. It advocates a system which is impractical and does not fit well into the lifestyle of present society, denying the possibility of alternatives, thereby condemning those pet owners, the majority, to feelings of inadequacy for failure to follow its teachings.

I said earlier that Dr Billinghurst gave a paper to the American Veterinary Holistic Society. His paper was called "Evolutionary Nutrition for Pets – Hearsay and Dangerous, or Hard Science and Healthy? I will leave you to make up your own mind on the answer to that question.

Is it not also unfortunate that those of us whose main interest is in improving pet health through proper nutrition should be criticising each other rather than the real culprits – the producers of the poor quality pet foods which do cause the problems?

amsmom2njkz
April 24th, 2007, 06:04 AM
I have replied to a thread about this but here goes again. I had a Bullmastiff who died as a result of a chicken bone lodged in his intestine and his intestines ruptured. I did NOT give him the chicken bone, I did however cook food for him. Such as scrambled eggs,boiled or grilled boneless chicken, rice, beef roast, beef steak.He also got the quality dry dog food. I NEVER gave him meat with a bone in it, it is too dangerous. Blockage of the intestine, splintering and lacerating the insides. Sounds painfull doesn't it. I don't have a problem with feeding your dog meats as long as there is NO bone in it,and it is cooked. I don't have a problem with feeding dogs dry dog food as long as it is a quality, healthy food.

Scott_B
April 24th, 2007, 06:24 AM
Very sorry about your Bullie amsmom2njkz. Can you tell me, was it a raw or cooked chicken bone?

amsmom2njkz
April 24th, 2007, 08:23 AM
Very sorry about your Bullie amsmom2njkz. Can you tell me, was it a raw or cooked chicken bone?

Thank You Scott. I would have to assume it was cooked and have to assume he got it out of the trash or outside somewhere.

marko
April 24th, 2007, 09:41 AM
Diversity of opinion is fine - but let's keep things civil.

Some members are passionate about raw.
Some members are passionate about not feeding raw.

Like everything on this planet there are multiple points of view.

There comes a point in time where we need to pull back after we have stated our opinions many times in a particular thread. Failure to do so usually results in passionate threads becoming overheated and often rudeness, slander and other rule breakers are quick to surface.

This thread will now be closed.

thx

marko