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Veterinary diets...

Prin
April 14th, 2007, 08:08 PM
Ok, can somebody explain to me how these are good for your animal? How vets can recommend them? I know Heidiho had a rant about them last week, but now's my turn. Even vets who research nutrition more than others still back some of these foods, and I just don't get it.

Like this one, from the US's Royal Canin/Waltham IVD (innovative veterinary diet) line:
Waltham Hypoallergenic HP (http://www.walthamusa.com/Learning%20Center/HP19.html)
For ingredients, see the pdf: http://www.walthamusa.com/Learning%20Center/pdf/HP19.pdf

RICE, SOY PROTEIN ISOLATE HYDROLYSATE, CHICKEN FAT, NATURAL FLAVORS, BEET PULP, VEGETABLE OIL, SODIUM SILICO ALUMINATE, DICALCIUM PHOSPHATE, CALCIUM CARBONATE, FISH OIL, INULIN, POTASSIUM
CHLORIDE, MONOSODIUM PHOSPHATE, L-TYROSINE, CHOLINE CHLORIDE, TAURINE*, BORAGE OIL, VITAMINS [DLALPHA TOCOPHEROL (SOURCE OF VITAMIN E), INOSITOL, NIACIN, L-ASCORBYL-2-POLYPHOSPHATE (SOURCE OF
VITAMIN C*), D-CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, BIOTIN, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE (VITAMIN B6), RIBOFLAVIN (VITAMIN B2), THIAMINE MONONITRATE (VITAMIN B1), VITAMIN A ACETATE, FOLIC ACID, VITAMIN B12
SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT], TRACE MINERALS [ZINC AMINO ACID CHELATE, ZINC OXIDE, FERROUS SULFATE, MANGANESE AMINO ACID CHELATE, COPPER AMINO ACID CHELATE, COPPER SULFATE, MANGANOUS
OXIDE, SODIUM SELENITE, CALCIUM IODATE], MARIGOLD EXTRACT, PRESERVED WITH NATURAL MIXED TOCOPHEROLS, ROSEMARY EXTRACT, AND CITRIC ACID.How is a dog supposed to stay healthy on two grains and an animal fat?

Their canned Renal LP formula's first ingredients are:
WATER, MEAT BY-PRODUCTS, RICE, ANIMAL FAT
http://www.walthamusa.com/Learning%20Center/pdf/LP11.pdf
:eek: Your dog has kidney failure, so you should feed mystery meats?


Hill's in Canada is similar. This is their kidney formula (k/d (http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/products/product_details.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=8455244417 63447&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302024497&CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673220969&bmUID=1176602584132&bmLocale=en_CA)):
Brewers Rice, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor, Soy Fiber, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, Calcium Sulfate, Potassium Citrate, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, Magnesium Oxide, Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Beta-Carotene

Why not just give rice and a biovite vitamin?

And how is this (http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/products/product_details.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=8455244417 63434&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302024497&CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673220969&bmUID=1176602705835&bmLocale=en_CA):
Corn meal, chicken by-product meal, pork fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), brewers rice, soybean mill run, soybean meal, flaxseed, fish meal, chicken liver flavor, dried egg product, dried carrots, dried spinach, dried grape pomace, dried tomato pomace, dried citrus pulp, vegetable oil, oat fiber, L-lysine, L-tryptophan, taurine, L-carnitine, preserved with BHT and BHA, minerals (potassium chloride, salt, calcium carbonate, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), alpha-lipoic acid, rosemary extract, beta-carotene, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin E supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (a source of Vitamin C), niacin, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement).
Supposed to help age-related behavior problems?

I can't get the Purina vet diets' ingredients, but I've seen a couple and at least they have meat in them! They're still loaded with junk, in general, but they have meat and higher protein levels that correspond to the newer research, so I have to give them a little credit, when comparing to the rest of the vet diets out there.

How are these diets better than holistic food, better than home-cooked? I really don't get how a few grains and sparce by-products are supposed to make our pets BETTER.

If somebody knows, let me know.:shrug:

mummummum
April 14th, 2007, 08:57 PM
There is a 14% protein formula available via the Vet's (it may well be one of these but, I'll have to check with my friend for the brand name) which is suitable for dogs with a history of oxalate stone formation.

This super-low protein content doesn't exist in any holistic or commercially available brand and while it can be done as home cooked or raw, it is beyond- believable difficult for the "average Jane-who-just-wants to scoop-kibble" to reproduce with all the other needed nutrients in a home-cooked diet. I know, I've looked for suitable alternatives.

Her dawg is seemingly healthy and has been stone free for almost three years. Had he continued to have stones she would have had to PTS him because of the costs of urolithic surgery.

Personally, I can't argue with that.

wmarcello
April 14th, 2007, 08:58 PM
I'll let you analyze them Prin, but a few of those Purina Vet formulas can be found here:

http://www.allivet.com/Dog-Diet-Food-s/163.htm

Prin
April 14th, 2007, 09:04 PM
Ooo thanks! :)

Mum, for some conditions, they do what they are supposed to do (i.e. keep the stones gone), but why do they have to be so crap to do so? They seem to target one thing and compromise the rest. :confused:

Like, the bare minimum, WHY do they have to have menadione?

Prin
April 14th, 2007, 09:07 PM
Ooo, well the Purina Hypoallergenic is the same... :sad:
Corn starch, modified isolated soy protein, water, coconut oil, dicalcium phosphate, canola oil preserved with TBHQ, cellulose, corn oil, potassium chloride, vegetable gums (gum arabic and guar gum), salt, choline chloride, DL-Methionine, magnesium oxide, lecithin, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, vitamin supplements (E, A, B-12, D-3), riboflavin supplement, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium pantothenate, biotin, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, copper sulfate, folic acid, pyridoxine hydrochloride, calcium iodate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.


See, their Joint Mobility one has a little bit of fish in it... At least.
Brewers rice, trout, salmon meal, corn gluten meal, poultry by-product meal, egg product, oat fiber, animal digest, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), fish oil, chicken cartilage (natural source of glucosamine), potassium chloride, Vitamin E supplement, salt, choline chloride, taurine, zinc sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of Vitamin C), ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite. But it still has animal digest, animal fat, poultry by-product meal, egg product, and menadione. Why? :sad:

mummummum
April 14th, 2007, 09:11 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you Prin, I'm just suggesting that there are some instances where people are left with no choice.

Now, if the holistic community wants to step up to bat....

Prin
April 14th, 2007, 09:12 PM
Let me rephrase my question into a few instead:

Why can't the vet food be healthier? Why does it all have to be cheap by-products and cost-saving corner-cutters?

Why can't concerned owners be able to follow their vets' advice AND feed good food at the same time?

Why don't the companies who make the vet foods take more responsibility and care for our pets?

Why isn't there ONE line of foods that is balanced for whatever issue it needs to be balanced for AND is full of great, natural ingredients?

The 'science' is already readily available to these companies. Why don't they use it to make BETTER foods rather than more cost effective foods?

Prin
April 14th, 2007, 09:13 PM
Now, if the holistic community wants to step up to bat....But some are trying, and they just don't get the recognition that the big 4 companies get.

ETA: But I do think they should try MUCH harder. Much.

technodoll
April 14th, 2007, 09:26 PM
prin it's all about "profits first"... if it wasn't, the evidence would be in the bag, ie better quality ingredients formulated down the "proper" percentages of this and that. You don't need garbage ingredients to make a 14% diet... but you do need garbage ingredients to rake in a nice fat profit.

it's sad, but it's the bottom line. :sad:

Prin
April 14th, 2007, 09:28 PM
:sad: :sad:

worrier
April 14th, 2007, 09:51 PM
I think there isn't enough demand for these diets for the manufacturers to care. Come on Canidae, Orijen, etc. step up!

One Beagle Girl
April 14th, 2007, 10:23 PM
I think there isn't enough demand for these diets for the manufacturers to care. Come on Canidae, Orijen, etc. step up!

You'd be surprised at the demand for these foods! The place I where I work is associated with a vet's office, and people are in and out of there all day long buying prescription diets. The demand is huge, but you're right that that manufacture's don't care.

I agree with Prin. These prescription diets don't have to be made with crap ingredients - they should be nutritious. I really makes me sad that vets push them. :sad: It's even sadder that the pets who end up on these 'foods' are the ones with health problems to begin with - I can't imagine how in the world it could make them feel better.

TeriM
April 14th, 2007, 11:47 PM
I agree that there is quite a demand although that is probably mainly due to peoples "blind faith" in their vets. In other words, if the vet sells it then of course it is what is best for my dog.

Interesting enough the mark-up % is only 1/3 for the vet (vet pays 30$ and sells for $39). That means that the manufacturer and the distributor must all be making big bucks.

TeriM
April 15th, 2007, 12:00 AM
So just for kicks, I pulled out the vet wholesale price list that I have. The Aug 06 price list states (vet cost):

Hills K/D 40lb bag $68.16
Purina Hypo Allergeric formula 35 lb bag $72.44
Purina Joint Mobility formula 35 lb bag $57.74

:eek: :eek: :eek:
and then add the profit percentage and the consumer is paying huge $$.

technodoll
April 15th, 2007, 10:11 AM
:frustrated: no kidding... one of those big bags of crap costs about $4 to make, bag and all (I read that somewhere). Makes one want to question the words "integrity" and "trust", eh? :yell:

pitgrrl
April 15th, 2007, 10:33 AM
I think it's also worth mentionning that, to my knowledge, much of the nutritional info vets are given is provided by Hill's, Purina, etc. and they are given these products to use, so their expereince and basis of knowledge is so limited that they may think they are giving you the best.

Out of curiousity, does anyone know anything about Wysong Rx Diets?

http://www.wysong.net/page/WOTTPWS/CTGY/RXDIET

technodoll
April 15th, 2007, 10:52 AM
wow THOSE make sense!! i clicked on half the links to see the ingredients and lo and behold, they use real food :thumbs up bravo! now why aren't vets carrying and pushing Wysong stuff instead of pathetic industry waste branded Hills, Purina, etc? :confused:

Puppyluv
April 15th, 2007, 11:08 AM
I'm pretty sure it was the hills k/d that the vet wanted me to feed Layla after her little overdose. I remember saying something to the effects of "what, she wasn't close enough to death already, so now you want me to kill her with this food?" (It was 4 am.. I wasn't in the best mood...)
Needless to say, I then declined the suggestion, and told the vet I was intent on sticking to a raw diet.

Goldens4Ever
April 15th, 2007, 11:46 AM
I think it's also worth mentionning that, to my knowledge, much of the nutritional info vets are given is provided by Hill's, Purina, etc. and they are given these products to use, so their expereince and basis of knowledge is so limited that they may think they are giving you the best......

Yes, that is the case. I read a great book about this & the commercial dog food industry by Ann Martin, called Food Pets Die For the NEW VERSION (NOT the old one). It goes in to great detail about the reality that euthanized companion animals are [often] being used in commercial dog foods. The book also the development of the commercial dog food industry & how in traditional U.S. veterinary schools, small-animal nutrition is an elective course & is very basic. The students rely upon those sales reps who filtrate into the schools, brainwash them, & put stars in their eyes, telling them about all the wonderful monetary benefits they'll receive for selling their products. The book discusses a lot of other issues concerning the commercial pet food industry. :evil:

Maybe traditional veterinary schools are different in other parts of the world, in terms of training on nutritional sciences. :shrug:

Goldens4Ever
April 15th, 2007, 11:56 AM
You'd be surprised at the demand for these foods! The place I where I work is associated with a vet's office, and people are in and out of there all day long buying prescription diets. The demand is huge, but you're right that that manufacture's don't care.

I agree with Prin. These prescription diets don't have to be made with crap ingredients - they should be nutritious. I really makes me sad that vets push them. :sad: It's even sadder that the pets who end up on these 'foods' are the ones with health problems to begin with - I can't imagine how in the world it could make them feel better.

How sad. Why is it necessary for a prescription diet to be filled with unhealthy ingredients??? :yuck: :evil: :sick: :mad:

Prin
April 15th, 2007, 11:59 AM
omg, those wysong ones are actually ok! I really don't like wysong's regular stuff, but this stuff is so much better than the usual vet diets. :highfive:

pitgrrl
April 15th, 2007, 12:11 PM
omg, those wysong ones are actually ok! I really don't like wysong's regular stuff, but this stuff is so much better than the usual vet diets. :highfive:

.....but have you ever seen them anywhere? I'm kind of curious about what it would take to get vets to carry something like this, constant harrassment? Bribes? :laughing:

Prin
April 15th, 2007, 12:13 PM
Demand... Unless Wysong goes vet to vet and sells this stuff hard core, the vets won't know about it. :rolleyes:

Goldens4Ever
April 15th, 2007, 12:15 PM
I agree that there is quite a demand although that is probably mainly due to peoples "blind faith" in their vets. In other words, if the vet sells it then of course it is what is best for my dog.....

That's right. That is the common justification people give for why they choose to feed those types of foods. They think that if their vet OR BREEDER, whose been in business for decades, recommends this food, then they must be healthy. This is a huge hot button for me.

We used to have blind faith in our previous vet who had our dogs eating Iams, Eukanuba, & Science Diet. It was a pure God-send that I crossed paths with a Solid Gold rep a few years ago who enlightened me. I was utterly speechless & it took a few days for me to process that new information because I was so shocked. :eek: :eek: That was one of the biggest reasons why we switched to a holistic vet-we were really ticked off that our previous vets were recommending garbage & we naively trusted them. That garbage was contributing to the health problems they were experiencing. :mad: When we switched to holistic foods, the health of our dogs changed almost over night.....that's why this is a real hot button for me.

For instance, our Cocker Spaniel (who died at 14 & is now deceased) lived on Iams her whole life, up until her last 2 years with us. She had chronic ear infections growing up & as she got older, she started having digestion problems, so our old vets had us mix pumpkin in her food. We did this for YEARS! Then, we switched her to a Solid Gold food & she was cured-no more problems, at all.

Aspen's Seborrhea condition & ear infections were out of control while she was eating Eukanuba as a puppy. Once we switched her to Solid Gold & now Timberwolf Organics, her Seborrhea symptoms are of little notice anymore & she has had fewer ear problems! Plus, I also have to attribute it to the Organic Extra Virgin Coconut Oil & Omega 3, 6, 9 capsules, which the old vet would never have recommended.

Goldie had problems with ear infections as a puppy. Now, she hasn't had an ear infection for.......2.5 years.

Goldens4Ever
April 15th, 2007, 12:23 PM
.....but have you ever seen them anywhere? I'm kind of curious about what it would take to get vets to carry something like this, constant harrassment? Bribes? :laughing:

Our vets carry Wysong, but I'm unsure if it's these prescription ones...I'll have to check the next time I am there.

They carry Solid Gold, Wysong, Royal Canin, IVD, & Bravo! Raw. I'm not sure why they sell they well the Royal Canin, Wysong, & IVD because I don't think those are that great either. :shrug: I wish they would sell Timberwolf Organics.

pitgrrl
April 15th, 2007, 12:26 PM
The book also the development of the commercial dog food industry & how in traditional U.S. veterinary schools, small-animal nutrition is an elective course & is very basic. The students rely upon those sales reps who filtrate into the schools, brainwash them, & put stars in their eyes, telling them about all the wonderful monetary benefits they'll receive for selling their products.


I don't know if it's fair to say that all vets are working primarily from a profit maximizing point of view. What I know of vet school, I only know from talking to a few vet students, and yes, they seem to have one really pathetic, elective, nutrition class plus maybe a few "workshops" given by Purina and company reps.

I think though, that the problem is much more that vets, in large part, won't admit that they don't know about nutrition. I love my vet because through all my dog's GI issues, she's always basically told me that she could offer me Medi-cal or Purina Rx diets, but that they weren't necessarily the best and she was in full support of my trying homecooking or raw alternatives, she just didn't know enough to tell me how to do it. To me that's fine, I went out and found someone who specializes in nutrition, what is awful to me is the used car salesman routine alot of vets seem to launch into when trying to sell you a $40 bag of peanut hulls.

Goldens4Ever
April 15th, 2007, 12:38 PM
I don't know if it's fair to say that all vets are working primarily from a profit maximizing point of view. What I know of vet school, I only know from talking to a few vet students, and yes, they seem to have one really pathetic, elective, nutrition class plus maybe a few "workshops" given by Purina and company reps.

I think though, that the problem is much more that vets, in large part, won't admit that they don't know about nutrition.......

Of course, not all vets work primarily from a profit maximizing point of view. I am sorry if my statement sounded inclusive of all vets, as I really meant it in general terms. :sorry:

It's interesting that you say that about vets not wanting to admit their deficiency in that area. I can understand why they would be reluctant to do so, because people rely upon them to be the experts in all areas of veterinary care. But then again, even though they don't receive much, if any, training in that area, maybe they still think that they do know a lot about it just because they are a veterinarian. :shrug:

rainbow
April 15th, 2007, 02:52 PM
Demand... Unless Wysong goes vet to vet and sells this stuff hard core, the vets won't know about it. :rolleyes:

I think all of us should take that website to our veterinarians and ask them to please look into it. :fingerscr

Stacer
April 15th, 2007, 04:20 PM
If Purina and other crap companies can go into a vet school and teach about their foods why can't a good company do the same? All it would take is one rep approaching a school and offering teach about their food.

We could even take it into our own hands to a certain extent. What if we created a pamphlet about the quality of vet prescribed foods vs. the quality of food that we know exist out there. Do some thoughful research and compile it, with references, into a neat little package to distribute to our local vets. Even if they only read it and toss it, it might stick somewhere in their brains and eventually provoke some thought about the foods that they sell to trusting pet owners.

rainbow
April 15th, 2007, 04:45 PM
If Purina and other crap companies can go into a vet school and teach about their foods why can't a good company do the same? All it would take is one rep approaching a school and offering teach about their food.

Perhaps we should all start emailing the "good" pet food companies to do so. :fingerscr

Goldens4Ever
April 15th, 2007, 06:24 PM
If Purina and other crap companies can go into a vet school and teach about their foods why can't a good company do the same? All it would take is one rep approaching a school and offering teach about their food.......

Although that is a noteworthy point, I don't think it would be possible. Based upon my understanding of the pet food industry & the science/academic world, the major companies such as Purina, Pedigree, Iams/Eukanuba, Science Diet, etc. are the ones that have years of scientific research behind them (despite how horrible the experiments are & how bad the foods are) & I think those are the types of companies that they allow into their schools. I seriously doubt the DVM schools are going to let holistic companies come in, simply because they don't possess that academic/scientific type of research to stand behind, regardless if it's obvious that the ingredients are healthier. :eek: :rolleyes: The only exception here might be with the holistic DVM schools, whose teaching are dramatically different. But, then again, I'd assume that they would be more inclined to promote raw & home-cooked diets, rather than holisitic kibbles, as consistent with the holistic philosphy.

Many people want that research backing the food that they feed, regardless of the ingredients. I know it's stupid, but that's a common statement that I hear from people. I've always believed in the notion that just because someone has been doing something a certain way numerous years does NOT necessarily mean that it's been correctly, & this is certainly true & applicable to the dog food industry. The companies listed above have been around for years & have conducted many studies/experiments (unfortunately :sad: ), yet those are types of companies that are producing garbage. So, experience is certainly not reflective of quality.