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Can someone clarify breed pricing for me please, I dont get it

erykah1310
April 9th, 2007, 03:29 PM
Ok...
Heres my issue.
I know a lab breeder, and IMO an ethical one at that. ( where my dogs are boarded when i leave)
She charges $750 per pup, and a bit more for show quality (one per litter if all goes well) So, the cost theoretically would be the same to raise a litter of Labs as it would for lets say a Cane Corso which is not as common
Now 6 lab pups and a pregnate mothers nutritional needs and vet care (including all health clearances) would amount to same roughly as the Cane Corso's litter of 6 right???? Or are vets also discrimiating by the "rarity" of the breed:shrug:
How is it justified to sell the Cane pups for double the price of the lab pups?
To me this makes no sence ( as do most breeding things)
Please clear this up for me.

Prin
April 9th, 2007, 03:38 PM
I think the higher the price, the more people get filtered out by it... A lot of not-so-hot dog owners have $800 ready to spend, but there aren't as many at $1500 and up.:shrug:

Honestly, if I was going to buy from a breeder, cost wouldn't be an issue. If the breeder did all the proper genetic testing, health testing, got all the proper certifications (hips, eyes, heart, elbows, etc depending on breed), had a super awesome pedigree- basically, if the breeder met the highest possible standards for ethical breeding, then I'd pay whatever for the dog.

But I have yet to find any breeder that comes close to my expectations in a breeder.

erykah1310
April 9th, 2007, 03:48 PM
Its not so much the pricing here either, lets perhaps word this differently...

How is it that is acceptable and doesnt set off any triggers in some peoples minds when a less popular breed is priced higher than a popular breed?
I mean a breed like Labs, Goldens, Rotties, Shepherds ect. would probably be harder to finish than a breed where there are only a few showing at a time. Canes, Xolutolots( dont even bother spell checking that one) or a breed along those lines.
I just dont get how its "alright" to charge more for them:shrug:
I know some breeders charge alot for even the common breeds, but it doesnt necissarily mean they are good or ethical breeders (take designer dogs for example, they are expensive but clearly not ethical breeders are selling them)

Prin
April 9th, 2007, 03:54 PM
Oh, I get it. ;)

IMO, price should go with cost, not with rarity of the breed... Like a perfect dane should cost more than a perfect bichon, just because danes are generally weaker and have more issues associated with them, and the breeding has to be more meticulous and there has to be way more testing...

I think it gets expensive for rare breeds because they pay more for their dogs, and they pass that onto the next generation too. Supply and demand, I guess, just like any other business.

erykah1310
April 9th, 2007, 03:58 PM
Maybe ... just maybe the hard time finding a suitable stud as well may contribute???

But I agree 110% with your statement here ( too lazy to sum it up)
Like a perfect dane should cost more than a perfect bichon, just because danes are generally weaker and have more issues associated with them, and the breeding has to be more meticulous and there has to be way more testing...


it just really irritates me when the sole reason given is "because I can" and " they are not common"
If I was hunting for a breeder those statements alone would make me turn away regardless how good of a breeder I thought they were.

Prin
April 9th, 2007, 04:01 PM
I know two rotties who were $2500 and $4000. But that cost was for crazy testing, a super champion pedigree and a well known bloodline (supposedly). But also, because the bloodline is good, there's a higher demand for the puppies, so they can charge pretty well whatever they please, right?

mafiaprincess
April 9th, 2007, 04:09 PM
In some cases, it seems less rare breeds, the sheer number of breeders somehow drive the price down.. Probably doesn't affect the greatest breeders.. but like afghans. A pet quality one is a grand USD roughly.. You might find cheaper, but for the most part they are all priced around there.

Versus the number of more 'common' breeds are often randomly in the newspaper for 600ish. A good breeder doesn't have to lower the price to find buyers, but it seems many have prices closer to that skeazy breeder range..

clm
April 9th, 2007, 08:45 PM
Like Prin had said, she knows of some rotties that were 2500 and up. Not a rare breed by any stretch of the imagination, but bred well and as such will have a supply and demand issue as people will want that breeders pups, a well bred lab from a really good breeder would be the same thing. Superior working lines in a lab would be something that might drive up the price. That's not saying that you couldn't find a healthy rottie or lab a whole lot less expensive, but some breeders will want you to help pay for those great lines and the care and cost they put into their breeding programs and they have great demand for their pups. Rarer breeds, like leonbergers, canes, shilohs, etc, will have a serious supply and demand factor to begin with, and breeding costs will be much higher too. Flying in bitches to far away studs and importing stock from other countries. Breeds like canes may have issues like bulldogs with the puppies heads being rather large, might result in more c sections or higher puppy mortality rates.
If you find breeders with exceptionally high prices, research those breeders and see if you can find out why their pups command such a high price tag. It may be worth every penny, or they may just be trying to get top dollar.
Look up some of their breeding stock and see what their pedigrees are. It can be quite interesting.

Cindy

BMDLuver
April 9th, 2007, 08:51 PM
Another example would be the Bull Terrier. They require a c-section for birth, normally only have 2-3 pups maximum. Therefore driving the cost per pup upwards.

happycats
April 9th, 2007, 09:05 PM
IMO it's all about $$$$$
Labs are cheaper because they are a dime a dozen, (just check petfinders) and Cane Corso are more, because they are not as common so they can charge more. It's all about supply and demand, and that's the bottom line.

clm
April 9th, 2007, 09:17 PM
True, it is all about the $$$, but it can be the $$$ involved in breeding that particular type of dog and supply and demand, not just because they're a time a dozen. Lot's of the poor labs that end up at petfinders are there because people don't research a breed well enough before hand and can't handle the rambunctious 3 years that a golden or lab or shepherd or any other large dog goes through before they settle down a little, and while they're willing to deal with the terrible 2's or 3's in a child, a dog is disposable, so get rid of the dog.
If you went to a top breeder for a lab, you're not going to pay under 1,000 for one, that breeder will have a waiting list, an impeccible breeding program, loads of answers to any questions you may have and will want to know a lot about you before they'll even sell you a pup. Just because a breed is popular, doesn't mean it's going to be cheap, it's up to you to find a good breeder. A top notch breeder may have an older pup or retired show dog that you may be able to purchase a little more reasonable, but you're going to pay a lot for their puppies, popular breed or not IMO.

Cindy.

happycats
April 9th, 2007, 09:25 PM
True, it is all about the $$$, but it can be the $$$ involved in breeding that particular type of dog and supply and demand, not just because they're a time a dozen. Lot's of the poor labs that end up at petfinders are there because people don't research a breed well enough before hand and can't handle the rambunctious 3 years that a golden or lab or shepherd or any other large dog goes through before they settle down a little, and while they're willing to deal with the terrible 2's or 3's in a child, a dog is disposable, so get rid of the dog.
If you went to a top breeder for a lab, you're not going to pay under 1,000 for one, that breeder will have a waiting list, an impeccible breeding program, loads of answers to any questions you may have and will want to know a lot about you before they'll even sell you a pup. Just because a breed is popular, doesn't mean it's going to be cheap, it's up to you to find a good breeder. A top notch breeder may have an older pup or retired show dog that you may be able to purchase a little more reasonable, but you're going to pay a lot for their puppies, popular breed or not IMO.

Cindy.



I guess I don't understand any of this, because I would never "buy" a dog, if I really wanted a pure bred I would go the rescue route, but I think when I finally get a dog I will just get a mutt from a good rescue:shrug: I kinda like the newfie mixes.:love: I'm sorry :offtopic: :o

erykah1310
April 9th, 2007, 09:29 PM
Its not the price itself that i have issues with...
IF i was happy with a breeder and they met or exceeded my expectations for a pup I would pay anywhere from $1-$3000 for the pup.
Its the idea behind it.
The "just because I can" attitude with a rare breed. It boggles my mind. I understand about c-sections and other high cost breeds but im talking theoretically...
2 bitches whelp a litter each, no complications, both studs were exactly 200 kms away, stud fees were the same, same food, same care.
Why is alright for bitch number 2's litter to be more expensive than bitch number 1's just because number 2 is "rare"

i_have_too_many
April 9th, 2007, 09:33 PM
I believe the "not so common" comment was meant for my thread? Let me then clarify. The pricing of "rarer" breeds is generally set by the supply-and-demand principal. If there are more people who want the dog, the breeders raise prices to ensure that those who are really serious about the breed are the ones who get them (although there is no fool-proof method). Those people who just want a dog because they look cool or have a neat name are not as willing to part with 1000's if they do not know that breed. Those who research the breeds and look around for breeders have started to put money aside for the purchase and care. Labs around here range in price from $200 to $800, now someone who is just looking for "a lab" will most likely contact the one with the cheapest price and take that pup. If someone is looking for a show quality lab first of all would probably not find it in an ad, but if they do they will call each one, and check out the dogs to find the best regardless of price.

Believe it or not I know there are people out there who will only pay a few hundred for a dog because that way if something happens to it they are only out a little and can recover easily. If they spend more on the dog they are more willing to take better care since they know what the cost to replace it would be. (I know many of you will comment saying that you would spend $1000's to keep your rescues healthy, good for you, but not everone feels that way. To many, a dog is just a dog.)

I cant remember who said it but the comment about taking less time to finish a show dog of a rarer breed then a common one is a miss-conseption. To "finish" a show dog (get it's show Championship), in Canada the dogs needs 10 points, 15 in the US. Dogs are awarded points for beating other dogs, but it is not one point for each dog beat. If your dog beats 1 dog it gets 1 point, 2 to 4 dogs it gets 2 points, 5 to 8 dogs 3 points, 9 to 11 dogs 4 points and over 12 dogs 5 points. But the dog only gets points for being the best male, female or best of the breed, not in each age class. A dog can only be awarded 5 points in 1 day, and in order to recieve the Championship it must complete this under 3 different judges and have won at least 1 major (2 points or more at a time).

So based on this scale, a breed with say 10 dogs competing will get the winner 4 points, (all shows I have been too several breeds have more than that number, including: Goldens, Labs, Shelties, Poodles and Sheperds). If you show a rare breed like I do, there are normally no more than 3 or 4 at the show, often less. So it will take several more shows for a top quality dog to win the same number of points. Rarely the same dog will win points ever day of the show, especially since it is a different judge each day.

I hope this is clear, it took me a year to understand the whole thing completely, and I still get confused some times. This is another reason why rarer breeds cost more, you have to show them longer to achieve the same as a more common breed.

clm
April 9th, 2007, 09:39 PM
Some breeds aren't that easy to find the rescue route and while I can live with any type, size or mix of dog, my husband is a one breed kind of guy, hence why we have only keeshonds. Looked into the rescues first and lots of them in the US, but none to be found here in Canada. The keeshond rescue information here in Canada is pathetic too I might add. California had the most, and they don't adopt out to anywhere except California. I don't fly, and it's a little far to drive anyway. :laughing:
While I would love to adopt dogs from petfinder, or a shelter, my husband insists on the kees, so we find a good breeder and buy from them. I do make donations to the wonderful groups that do rescue though. I admire them for all the wonderful work they do.

Cindy

erykah1310
April 9th, 2007, 09:43 PM
I actually understood that.

However it was me who said wouldnt it be harder to finish a more common dog.
My theory on this: just bear with me, im not trying to be combative, just want to wrap my head around this better.
If you have a Lab, and there are 10 other labs up against yours, couldnt it take longer due to the numbers? although the dog who does get the points gets more points, there is more competition :shrug:
I really dont know how to word this right... and i know no one can help me out.:frustrated: :o
Perhaps this way.
Lab - 1 in 10 for winning
Cane- 1 in 4 for winning
Sure more shows will be needed for the points, but the odds of getting them are better.:shrug: does that make sence:confused:

clm
April 9th, 2007, 09:59 PM
It would have to be harder to finish a more common dog I would think. I've been to a few dog shows, always go to the collingwood show when it's held at the international centre, and the number of goldens and labs and shepherds is amazing. Even if you just entered smaller shows, you would think there would still be more of those breeds there, making it that much harder to get their needed points.
I knew a woman who showed shepherds, she used to whine on occassion about the politics involved in the showing and judging. I have no idea how true it is....while I like to go to the odd dog show, I have never had any desire to show dogs....to hectic and too much travel.
I think they need to allow neutured animals into the CKC and AKC events....I don't understand why your dog has to be intact to show it. Just because you show it and make it a champion, doesn't mean you should still breed it. Could be one of the finest examples of the breed in appearance, but could have some horrible genetic flaw that no judge is ever going to see so I don't see the point in only allowing intact dogs to show.

Cindy

i_have_too_many
April 9th, 2007, 10:15 PM
Erykah, good for you for understanding it, many people need it explained several times.

In response to your comment, yes the ODDS of getting points is greater, but the number of points is fewer, so it will take longer. The show I was at this weekend there were 4 of the breed on Saturday, and 3 on Sunday (I was showing our German Shorthaired Pointer puppy). The winner took 2 points on Saturday, and another dog took the 2 points on Sunday (needless to say it was not my dog :sad: ) If I had been showing our Vizsla, she would have been the only one, so in order for her to have gotten any points (now here it gets confusing again) she would have had to place in the group competition. For anyone who has seen a dog show, they know what I mean, but I will explain it for those who do not. Each breed is divided by sex and age, the winners of each age class in each sex compete for "winners dog", and "winners bitch", then the winners dog and bitch compete against eachother and any of the "specials" (dogs who have recieved a championship) for "Best of Breed". Only those 3 dogs will get points depending on how many they beat directly or indirectly.

The dog who wins Best of Breed (usually, but not always, a special), competes in the group competition against all the breeds in the group that the dog falls under. In Canada there are 7 groups, Sporting, Herding, Non Sporting, Working, Terrier, Hound and Toy. Only those dogs who place in the top 4 get more points, again depending on how many they beat. The Sporting group is the largest and usually has over 13 breeds represented in the group class. A dog who gets 1st will get 5 points, 2nd 4 points and so on. But if there are only 6 to 9 breeds represented the 1st place dog gets 3 points and the 3rd and 4th take only 1. Remember, a non champion dog may take only 5 points at a show.

Now, once your dog has taken 10 points and recieved it's championship, it now gets a point for every dog it beats, the 5 point max rule no longer applies. So a dog who wins breed with 10 dogs competing gets 9 points. If that dog goes on to win Best in Show it will get a point for every dog there that day, which at a large show, could mean 4 or 5 hundred. That is why many people will continue to show a dog even though it is already a Champion, now they are trying to get the title of top dog in the breed.

Hows that for confusing you just before bed? Sorry I got a little carried away, but a lot of people do not know how these thing work or how much time it can take to get those 10 points. I hope I educated someone today.

erykah1310
April 9th, 2007, 10:20 PM
thanks, im confused a bit now.:laughing:
my reason for inquiring was not a direct attack on your other thread, but more or less I really wanted to know.
I have hopes and dreams of showing in the future ( quite some time away) and I really do want to understand as much as possible.
Im off now for 3 or so days, and I really hope this thread continues with some good info and not get closed because I will be returning to it.
Now im off to contemplate everything you posted previously and try to sleep in my one dog house:eek:

Frenchy
April 9th, 2007, 10:28 PM
I really hope this thread continues with some good info

You can get a purebred in any shelter/spca/rescue for $75 to $250 :sorry: :offtopic: :D

i_have_too_many
April 9th, 2007, 10:29 PM
I think they need to allow neutured animals into the CKC and AKC events....I don't understand why your dog has to be intact to show it. Just because you show it and make it a champion, doesn't mean you should still breed it.

There are some shows where they do allow altered dogs to compete. At a specialty (show where only a certain breed or group is entered) they sometimes have classes for sexually altered dogs. However not all breeds include these classes in their specialties, but it is getting more common. Altered dogs are allowed to compete in other sanctioned events though, such as obedience, tracking, rally-o, agility, etc.

I agree that even though a dog has it's championship it should not be bred, but usually it is a breeder who is showing it or talked the owner into showing it and you can only trust they have good judgement. Conformation shows were created though for breeders to showcase their breeding stock and compare them to other breeders from around the area/country, much the same way that cattle shows (we used to show those too) and horse shows work. At a show you only see the outside of the dog and not any genetic flaws they may carry. I have seen many really nice altered dogs that could have been used for breeding, and even more intact dogs that were used and should not have, but that is a topic for another day.

erykah1310
April 9th, 2007, 10:30 PM
You can get a purebred in any shelter/spca/rescue for $75 to $250 :sorry: :offtopic: :D

I know Frenchy and I have;)

Frenchy
April 9th, 2007, 10:35 PM
I know Frenchy and I have;)

I know you did, still can't believe how many of them there is in shelters and people don't know about this , they think it's only mixt breeds, and these guys are usually the best (mixt breeds) ok, back to topic :o :D

i_have_too_many
April 9th, 2007, 10:40 PM
You can get a purebred in any shelter/spca/rescue for $75 to $250 :sorry: :offtopic: :D

I totally agree, and I encourage people to check there first, but some breeds are rarely in rescues, or get snatched up really quick. The Vizsla rescue has a very long waiting list, so any dog that does need to be re-homed usually does so quickly.

However, Erykah said that she is interested in showing, and I doubt you would find a papered dog in a shelter, and even more rare is one who is worthy of showing. But someone who is looking for one of those breeds and perhaps does not want to pay breeder prices should check with a rescue first, especially if they just want a pet.

:offtopic: Erykah, if you want any more info on showing let me know, I am by no means an expert, but I can try to explain things for you, or let you know if there is a show coming to your area.

Prin
April 10th, 2007, 01:09 AM
If a breed is rare in rescue, you just have to get friendly with the rescue. Get on the lists. My dad was on a list for a jack muscle, and within 6 months, he had one (at the time they were rarer here than they are now...).

If you really want a rescue of a certain breed, you'll find it. :shrug:

I really want a newf from a breeder, but I strongly doubt it will ever happen because there's always somebody else who needs a home.:shrug:

MaryAndDobes
April 24th, 2007, 11:29 AM
There are a lot of reasons for price variations in the different breeds, and some have been mentioned.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect that rarer breeds are going to cost more. It's harder for the breeder to find/purchase a quality dog of a rare breed to show/breed, it's harder to find a quality stud to use, one would probably have to travel farther to get to that dog, shipping costs probably play a bigger role, etc.

Different breeds have different costs in health testing. If I'm getting ready to breed a Doberman, for eg, it costs nearly $1000 to health test the female (OFA hips, elbows, and thyroid. VWD DNA test, CERF eye exam, Holter monitor ecg, cardiac ultrasound, liver/kidney panel, CBC, etc). Some breeds have less health testing to do than I do.

Once the puppies arrive, there are variations in procedures they need. What do Labs need? Their dew claws removed as far as I know. Whereas Dobermans need tails docked, dews removed and later ears cropped, with ear cropping running around $250 per puppy these days. Some breeds need juvenile cardiac testing for things like subaortic stenosis before they go, some puppies need vWD DNA tests before they go, some have eye exams before they go, etc. What the breeder has to spend to get them ready to go is going to affect the price.

Showing and the ease of finishing a championship may very well enter the picture. As some have said, if there are very few of a breed, it can take a long time to finish because there is no competition within the breed and it's hard to beat the best of the other breeds in the group. If there are lots of your breed, well then you have to be darned good to beat them within your own breed. Either way can be difficult. And then you have to factor in the competition. Let's face it, sometimes the competition stinks and if you have a good dog, a championship may be easy to attain. Other times your good dog will be bested by better dogs. Sometimes the competition is fierce, sometimes it's not.

There are also things no one can understand like the state of the "market". The price is what the market bears. If everyone is selling their quality Dobermans for $2000 and I'm selling mine for $1000, what do I look like? I look like I haven't put as much into mine and make people suspicious by having a low price. That may or may not be the case, in truth, but one has to be cautious about what their price may be telling people. So, breeders of quality within a breed tend to fall in line with each other and have similar prices.

i_have_too_many
April 29th, 2007, 12:29 PM
MaryAndDobes the comment about breeders within a breed usually keep to relatively the same price is very true with the Vizsla and German Shorthair, which I breed. Since the number of breeders is low, (about 10 in Ontario for Vizsla, 15 or around that in the entire country) we all know eachother and see eachother at different events. Word spreads if someone is selling their puppies much cheaper than the others, so everyone tries to keep around the same, $1200 for pet quality, $1500 for show or working quality, the best breeders are getting more for a special show litter. Another reason to keep the prices the same is when someone is looking for a pup and calls around, they often make comments about other breeder's prices, and will wonder if you are much higher or lower than the average.

There is a lab breeder around me that sells their pups for $800, I often wonder if they are actually able to sell them since they are the highest in the area. These pups could very well be worth it, but sadly there are so many people who just want a lab and will take the cheapest they can find. I also know a breeder who sells her lab pups for $1200, but she rarely breeds, and only if she knows she will be able to sell all the pups, she shows.

For anyone who is looking for a purbred I would highly recommend contacting several breeders before you settle on one. Do not pick a pup strictly on price, go with the breeder you are most comfortable with and the one you feel answers your questions the best, a good quality, healthy pup is priceless.

erykah1310
May 29th, 2007, 12:24 AM
go with the breeder you are most comfortable with and the one you feel answers your questions the best, a good quality, healthy pup is priceless.

Just want to emphasise on that for any BYBers or millers who may one day read this.

CyberKitten
May 29th, 2007, 04:06 PM
I paid alot for my Seal Point Siamese (more than some of the costs mentioned here!) but she came from one of the top champion breed lines and was a Show quality cat. Now, I was not looking for that - I was actually searching for a rescue meezer with special needs but sometimes you come across a kitten you just bond with immediately and that happened to me. I had to go back and get her - I knew she was mine and she knew I was her servant, lol It's hard to explain!!

However, I do think if you set out to purchase a dog or cat from a purebred breeder who is involved in showing them and is a noted breeder and cares more about the cat - you will get a pet that is healthy and from a good pedigree and that is worth its weight in gold.

I have friends in breeding and not one of them makes a profit and I think that's the thing - you look for a breeder who is in it for the cats or dogs!! Not to make a profit because rarely does a good breeder make any money from their work. My friend who breeds Yorkies and my friend who had the Sphynx Girls - both of them spent a small fortune on their pets - just the travel alone and the vet bills were enormous. The cost if selling one or two kittens or puppies NEVER covers the costs associated with their care of their animals. They truly love them and would never hand them over to anyone and they have very clear contracts! (And most follow their kittens and puppies to see how they're doing - my "Yorkie" friend can tel you where every single dog is and how they are doing. Many of them are shown as well of course.

I could have shown YY but I just did not get into that. And I am sure she would have won many championships - she loves to be handled and loves people. But maybe when I retire, lol I do know it is an expensive proposition but enjoyable for those who do it.