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Backyard Breeders

Chany
April 9th, 2004, 04:01 PM
After reviewing that article in the chihuahua(?) thread about " responsible breeders vs. backyard breeders" I was a little upset. I guess according to this article I bought Abbey from a"backyard breeder". Even though she is tatooed,papered, father won a title for a show dog( and no I didn't ask to see his papers ). She's registered though so I never worried if he won titles or not.
I did consider going to a Von something or other for a Rottie but really couldn't see any difference in dogs. I know, I know I'm sure I'll hear the difference even though I've read it before. ;)
Now don't get mad, but the only difference I could see is their rules and their price.
Anyone that says any breeder is not in it for some money is lying.
If that was true then their prices would go down. And their rules I'm sorry but if I'm going to spend $1500.00 on a dog then I'll decide if she'll have pups ( not that I would ) but I know alot of people who say that.
I was impressed with I guess my "backyard breeder", and the reason I'm calling him that is there were maybe 4 traits I could pin
on him, but he also had many,many traits of the "responsible breeder"
I don't think you'll ever get rid of the "backyard breeder" but I think you could improve them or at least grade them different.
I'm sorry but where I'm from alot of people are discouraged by the professional breeder. I mean some of them act like your adopting a child ( Abbey and Dixie mean the world to me, but they are not even close to the love I feel for my children).
Please be kind! I'm just saying this so you can understand where alot of people are coming from.

mona_b
April 9th, 2004, 04:41 PM
Hey there chickie.

Don't worry.There are MANY people who don't know the difference.That's why we are trying to educate them as much as possible.

As for the registration papers,that doesn't matter,neither does the tatoo.Backyard breeders can still have that all done.

As for breeders acting like you are adopting a child.THAT is a responsible breeder.They want to know everything about you and know 100% that you are going to be a great owner to their Baby.
Unfortunately there is no other name to call them but Backyard Breeders.They are not breeding to better the breed at all.

Responsible breeders do not breed their Bitch in her first heat.And they are certified for health and genetics.

Before I got Yukon and Tron,I was put on a waiting list.At 12 weeks I took them home.Mind you,this is the same breeder I got my first GSD Cujo.She was breeding and showing for well over 20 years.5 generations of champions.They were not show quality.But that's not what I was looking for.

Licenced responsible breeders do not advertise in the paper.And they are registered in the Kennel Club.And the kennel club is the only place you will find a responsible breeder.Cause they are the ones who show their dogs.These dogs are bred to the breed standard.And they also have a non-breeding contract and also a s/n contract.And if you go against this contract,you are given a heafty fine.I know of an english bulldog breeder who will fine you $10.000.My breeder was giving a fine of $5.000 to those who went against the contract.Guess what,no one was ever fined.

This is why it is soooooooo important for people to not only research the breed,but also the breeder.

But if I was to get another if anything happened to my guys,I would rescue.Hubby has a thing for Boxers and I have a thing for the GSD.So it will be a battle.LOL

I just wish more people would know the difference between the Backyard breeder and the responsible breeder.

As for being kind,I'm always kind....:D :p

LavenderRott
April 9th, 2004, 05:53 PM
As a rottweiler owner, I have to ask, did both the sire and the dam of you lovely pup have all of their health checks done? I don't mean the quick trip to the local vet, I mean are their hips, elbows and hearts certified as healthy.

Since I spend a lot of my free time fighting Breed Specific Legislation, I can tell you that not every Tom, Dick and Harry should own a rottweiler. These are strong, powerful dogs that need to be place in a home that has the time, knowledge and CASH to make sure that they have the best dog - behaviourally speaking, on the block. Nothing less will do. For every negative thing on the news that is done by a rottweiler, 100 of us have to do something positive.

I fully expect the breeder that I buy my next puppy from to ask me considerably more questions then I can think of to ask them. I also know that the price they are asking doesn't come close to making up for the money they have spent feeding, training, showing, vetting, grooming, and providing their dogs with a safe environment to live in.

And I don't just want a dog that will look good in the show ring either. The breeder I want a pup from shows in many venues, not just conformation.

I would gladly pay the extra cash to get a dog that is not just good looking but sound in temperment. Your backyard breeder certainly doesn't care.

Chany
April 9th, 2004, 06:35 PM
Actually I couldn't tell you if they had their health checks. I didn't even know what that was until I started checking out this forum.
Yes rottweilers are strong powerful dogs and no not everyone should own them. I crammed on the research for the temperment of the rottweiler again before we got Abbey. We have had a previous rottweiler before, they truly are special dogs. :)
Seriously though your saying that $1500.00 per pup at 8 pups per litter they're not compensated? If they want to put the effort and money into showing their dogs, go hard. But they are compensated.
All I'm trying to say is not everyone can afford a $1500.00 dog. And yes they better have the money to pay for quality foods and vet care for this dogs life, but you're not going to get rid of the backyard breeder.
You understand what the breeders do and are willing to pay for it.
Which is great! But not everyone cares that much about a dog. Yes they probably should, but its not going to happen any time soon.
You would not believe the looks we got for buying a registered dog.
But as a parent myself I would not deprive my children the joy of having a family pet.
I thought I was doing well by buying a registered dog. Now I find out its just another backyard breeder, but I wouldn't trade her for a professional breeders dog, no matter what health problems we're looking at. Because now she's family.

hollybug26
April 9th, 2004, 07:31 PM
i know this probably won't be a popular opinion, but I just wish everyone would adopt. It seems a shame to spend 1500.00 on a papered animal, when there are so many mutts out there dying. The best dogs I have ever known were rescued.
I just came back from my vet today & was disgusted by the number of people in there who obviously didn't know anything about their dog except that it had papers, but were proudly talking about how many litters they had produced. People making deals in the parking lot to stud their dogs out to other owners. Until people stop buying dogs from these "backyard breeders" it will remain a big business and unfortunately, so few people are educated as to the difference that dogs will continue to die. Papered & mutt alike. It's sad.

Chany
April 9th, 2004, 08:20 PM
Yes, Rescue Animals should be first, but is that going to happen? No. Professional breeders should be the only ones selling dogs or maybe just certain dogs, but is that going to happen? No, probably not or a least not for a long time yet to come.
I think a lot of these backyard breeders could be lumped the same as puppy mills, but not all.
Some people shouldn't breed dogs, some people shouldn't own dogs but how do you think all of this could be changed?
Maybe in gradual steps?
Or what about people who love mutts? How do you convince them
that purebred dogs are better?
No, I'm sorry but IMO I don't think they're going anywhere but I'd like to make it better. The only problem I keep having is how?

hollybug26
April 9th, 2004, 08:32 PM
I wish I knew.. The problem boils down to greedy & irresponsible people. Unforunately, until those are outlawed, these problems will remain. I think this website is one of the best I've seen in terms of educating people as to what a responsible breeder is. Those of you who post regularly and provide so much great advice & information, keep it up. You help more than you may know & maybe that's the first best step toward making a change. I've learned a lot on this site. Others will too. :)

Lucky Rescue
April 9th, 2004, 08:49 PM
Seriously though your saying that $1500.00 per pup at 8 pups per litter they're not compensated?

If they are backyard breeders, then yes - they are making a great profit.

If they are the right kind of breeders, then no, they are not.

Do you know how much it costs to travel the country going to dog shows? Paying stud fees to a stud you may have fly your bitch to?
Getting ears and tails done(depending on breed) done on a litter of 9, plus getting all puppies health checks, shots and deworming? Feeding 9 puppies until they are 12 weeks old?

AND any reputable breeder knows which dog of theirs is breeding quality and have no-breeding contracts for a good reason! They do NOT want anyone breeding a dog of theirs that is not titled and worthy of breeding - it would make them look bad. Their reputation is all they have and it would be put on the line.

Reputable breeders would NOT sell a puppy without a s/n contract to someone who says, "I'm sorry but if I'm going to spend $1500.00 on a dog then I'll decide if she'll have pups ." NO way.

A backyard breeder's only question to you would be "Got the money?" You can get a dog from them and breed it to death for all they care.

doggy lover
April 9th, 2004, 09:12 PM
I have known some people who breed dogs I guess you would call them backyard breeders as they are not regestered breeders by a kennel club, but to lump them into puppy mills I don't think so. They breed their dog once a year and sell to families that they check out. If you want the dog regestered you can or if you want a family pet without the paper work thats ok too. To say that they don't care about their dogs and puppies is unfair, they take care of them the same as you or I, maybe its a little extra cash for them, but how can you say that someone who has been doing this for 15 years doesn't know what their doing?:confused:

Chany
April 9th, 2004, 09:36 PM
Nope I have no idea what it costs them to do all of that stuff. I know what the vet bills would be worth and cost of feeding, but as for showing them, or stud services, I have no idea.
Do you really think that many people out there care? No, a few do, but not nearly enough.
Maybe no one should be breeding until all of the rescues were adopted.
Is that going to happen? Again, no.
I think its great that people here are trying to help, but your goals of getting rid of backyard breeders are unrealistic.
If you educate people of what to look for in bad backyard breeders, I think you'll be making a step in the right direction.
I think Rescue needs to be advertised more where I live, and I'm going to do some checking into that.
I also think there are some terrible backyard breeders out there, but again there are some that are not.

hollybug26
April 9th, 2004, 09:40 PM
I think the point is that unless a breeder is breeding to better the breed, it's not responsible breeding. If someone just wants a family pet, there are so many out there that already need homes. There is no need to purposely bring more animals into the world with no guarantee that they will find a home when there are so many already doomed. I'm by no means an expert & don't claim to be one, it just seems like common sense to me. There is an adoption board for a reason.

Chany
April 9th, 2004, 09:53 PM
Aaah common sense! ;) Wouldn't that be nice if everyone had a little common sense. I don't think we'd see some of the regulars here getting tired of saying " Your animal needs to see a vet ASAP " if everyone had common sense, but alas they don't.
I personally also have no interest in breeding my girls. I know I'd be stuck with 3 extra shih-tzus and 8 rotties because I'd be worried about the homes they'd be going to. Much cheaper to get the dogs fixed. :)

hollybug26
April 9th, 2004, 09:53 PM
One thing I just learned.. According to the humane society in my city, one unaltered dog & her offspring can produce 67,000 dogs in 6 years. One unaltered cat & her offspring can produce 420,000 cats in 7 years. So, just one animal not properly cared for makes a huge impact. That having been said, it seems like just one responsible pet owner can make an equally huge impact. It seems like an insurmountable problem, but each person who makes a change makes a difference.

Chany
April 9th, 2004, 09:58 PM
Spaying and neutering, yes I believe every responsible pet owner
should have that done.
I also believe if people know what to look for in a "bad" backyard breeder that might be a step to wiping them out. If they can't sell their dogs then they're not going to breed are they?
But someone has to distinguish between an acceptable backyard breeder and a bad one.

Lucky Rescue
April 9th, 2004, 10:24 PM
But someone has to distinguish between an acceptable backyard breeder and a bad one.

There are no "acceptable" bybers. They are breeding ONLY to make money - since they do not show and title their dogs, what other reason would they have?

These are the people who are partly responsible for filling up the shelters and rescues. Where do you think all the dumped purebreds come from? Backyard breeders, that's where. How can they be acceptable?

The rest of the animals come from irresponsible and ignorant people who don't get their dogs and cats s/n for a variety of dumb reasons.

No reputable breeder would ever see his/her puppies in shelters, or petshops.

Dogs and cats are just merchandise to these people - supply and demand. If the demand would stop, the supply would dry up. Why breed if there are no bucks to be made?

LavenderRott
April 9th, 2004, 11:15 PM
Do you really think that many people out there care? No, a few do, but not nearly enough.

I belong to a rottweiler forum 10,000 members strong and I can tell you they ALL care. We care tremendously about dogs that are crippled by hip dysplasia before they are a year old. Or that drop dead in the yard of Sub Aortic Stenosis. Last year we raised $10,000 for rescues across the country. Many a transfer of rescued dogs have been arranged and carried out. All of the breeders on the forum do rescue work and show their dogs in a variety of areas. Nothing is more important then the good of the breed.

mona_b
April 10th, 2004, 02:04 AM
If you want your dogs registered you can or if you want a family pet without the paper work it's ok too?

There is no "can" when it comes to registering a litter.And it's NOT ok to sell one as a pet without it also.

ALL litters are registered at birth.It is ilegal to sell purebred puppies without papers.If they are sold without papers,then they are not classified as purebreds.All pups must have registration papers.

It is also ilegal to,lets say for example sell a pup for $800 with papers or sell the same pup for $400 without papers.

I have been a member of the Canadian Kennel Club for 20 years,so this is how I know all this.

Chany,it cost alot to show a dog.A very close friend of the family shows his Afghan Hound.He can spend up to $50,000 a year...Cash has earned 6 points.He needs 4 more to get to best in show...:D

I also have to say this.Chany has realized that she got Abbey from a Backyard Breeder.But how did she find this out?She came on here and read the link that was posted.Did she know about the difference between a BYB and a Responsible breeder?Probably not.But she found out on here.

Who can educate the people who dont's come on here before they come on a site like this?
Or how many people have come on here saying they got a pup from a petstore once we asked where they got it from.They never new that they come from puppy mills.And why not?Cause no one ever told them because alot of people don't even know.

Sorry guys,I have been in a heavy thinking mood today...

Who says blondes don't think..............LMAO

Chany
April 10th, 2004, 08:23 AM
O.K. thats a lot of information I did not know before and I always
appreciate further education. :)
Mona's right I thought I was buying from a responsible breeder. I can't and wouldn't do anything about it now, its too late. But somebody else may come on line who needs to hear this sort of information before getting a family pet.
I know people around home have heard with or without papers before, now I know I can tell them that is B.S.
LavenderRott I'm glad there is 10,000 people out there at least that do care but still that is a pretty small number compared to the people who couldn't care less about if their dog has something wrong or not. If the dog is going to cost them some money put it down and get a new one. These are the same people who would never spend $1500.00 on purchasing a dog let alone saving it. :(
The bottom line the backyard breeder isn't going anywhere for awhile.
Spaying and neutering, and puppy mills are something I'm definitely going to be explaining to people around here. I know I'll be just frustrating myself and annoying others if I start on the backyard breeders.
So I'll be taking small steps, I know its something your not going to agree with but I feel if I start on the backyard breeding people are just going to close their ears and walk away. I'd much rather have them s/n their dogs for now or at least if they're not going to buy from a reputable breeder, at least not support the puppy mills.
Because imo that is so much worse than "some" backyard breeders.
You could not pay me to buy an animal from a pet store from what I've learned, so thats another small step. ;)

mona_b
April 10th, 2004, 10:38 AM
See,this is what I like to hear.

Someone who is actually being educated enough on this subject to pass this info over to other people.

Yes there are alot of people who care and love their pets.But there are also those who don't..Just look in the shelters.And on the streets.I have seen my share of dogs being abused with their owners.Dogs that are pulling on their leashes to the point of them choking.Or the dogs being hit for not obeying the owner.Yes,I do make it a point of saying something to the point of being told to mind my own buisness.And the puppies that don't want to walk on their leash and being dragged.

And you are so right Chany.BYB's are not going anywhere.At least for now.And there needs to be a law stopping the sale of puppies being sold in pet stores.And trust me,I have had my say in them.I try and educate the people who want to buy in there.That is the only reason I go in there.For those who do know what puppy mills are all about,they walk right out.For those who don't,I tell them to look it up on the net and then decide if they still want to buy.I was in there a while ago.There was a beautiful Collie pup,just like Lubas Sadie.The poor thing was about 4 months old and couldn't move around.Well,mouthy me spoke up.The workers were not impressed at all.Did I care?Heck no.

So how do we educate people?Should we start handing out fliers?Make up gient billboards?What do we do?Not everyone comes on sites like these.

Chany
April 10th, 2004, 11:08 AM
I really wish I knew Mona. I'll definitely be speaking up like you do
in pet stores to people so they have a chance at understanding how some of their decisions will be affecting future dogs.
And I'll definitely talk to people around home who are looking for pets about Rescue, s/n and puppy mills.
I don't know but its something thats going to be bugging me for awhile. :confused:

Lucky Rescue
April 10th, 2004, 11:24 AM
If you know of anyone who wants to buy a puppy or kitten from a pet store, just show them this. (http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/what_is_a_puppy_mill.htm)

mona_b
April 10th, 2004, 12:40 PM
Hmmmmmm,do you REALLY want to know me?...........LMFAO..:D :p .

I am so glad that you want to help educate others.It's a start.But you will find that some don't want to be educated.Unfortunately.:(

LR posted a good link.And there are so very many more like that.

As for kittens,the to come from mills.

But I do need to say one thing.In the town close to where my sister lives,there is one pet store there.And they do have the odd kittens there.But they are brought in there from someone who's cat had kittens.So what they did was bring the ones that were left to this petstore.Usually there is no more then 3 in there.So the owner of the pet store does sell them.At least they are not dumping them in a farmers field.Right?And they don't always have kittens in there.And he does make sure that they will go to a good home.

I can't tell you how many cats,pregnant cats and kittens have ended up on my sisters farm.It's sad.

Luba
April 10th, 2004, 12:43 PM
Ok already having a bad day, scratch that HORRIBLE day! Finding out Heidi is dead then I click on the link and another link and compulsively crying now!!

As much as I see, I never get used to it, ...never want to get used to it and will never end my devotion to trying in as little ways as I can to prevent this.

The picture below is very shocking..... I'm sorry that I didn't think of warning you all earlier. My sincere apologies esp to LR (sorry my dear friend)






































































Picture is coming soon, so if you don't want to look scroll NOW































NOW!!

Lucky Rescue
April 10th, 2004, 02:05 PM
OMG LUBA!:( I didn't need to see that........

And he does make sure that they will go to a good home

Does he spay and neuter them before selling them? If not, he is directly responsible for some of the bodies in the pic Luba posted.

Yes, many pet stores get kittens and puppies from what they call "private breeders" which are just bybers and small time mills. It's all the same thing, big or small.

It's very possible to have puppy and kittens mills in a private home, if the dogs are very small breeds.

It all stinks big time.

:mad:

Luba
April 10th, 2004, 02:10 PM
I am sorry LR sometime shocking people with reality is the only way to get through to them that stuff of this magnitude does happen

HUGS

Lucky Rescue
April 10th, 2004, 02:20 PM
Yes, Luba - some people literally need to be hit over the head to get the message.

What I did on the pit bull board I moderate is ask anyone who wants to post graphic or shocking pics to put a warning in the title if they start a new thread, or just put a link, with a warning, if the post is in the thread.

That way, people (LIKE ME) who don't wish to view such pics needn't.

Chany
April 10th, 2004, 02:25 PM
Thanks L.R. for posting that site and you to Luba for the picture.
Thats what people need to see so they can begin to understand whats really happening out there.
I don't know much about city areas either as for byb's being like mills, but I know they're not around here.
Doggy Lover's post described exactly what kind of byb are around here.
It may not be acceptable where you are but it is here and thats not going to change.
Luba I'm so sorry about Heidi but there was nothing more you could have done. Please get some rest because you must be exhausted.
Mona_b, Every year we have cats visiting us to. We tried in the beginning to save some but cold hard facts hit you pretty fast in the country. We can't have a cat in the house because I'm allergic to them, so we try to help by giving them some food in their travels. The ones that will come near us well we try to find homes for them.
Lucky Rescue, I can't even begin to imagine the frustration you must be feeling with me right now.
You deal with a totally different group of people than we do and I understand how you feel. Every day seeing unwanted dogs and cats dying must be very hard but a different approach has to be taken or people just won't listen. I'm sorry if I've upset you.

Lucky Rescue
April 10th, 2004, 03:23 PM
[QUOTE]You deal with a totally different group of people than we do and I understand how you feel. Every day seeing unwanted dogs and cats dying must be very hard but a different approach has to be taken or people just won't listen. [/QUOTE}

I'm sorry, maybe my brain is frazzled, but I really don't understand this part....?

amaruq
April 10th, 2004, 05:00 PM
I don't agree with breeding period. There are far to many dogs and cats out there now.Ok maybe a few to keep the breed true but thats it.
I have talked i would get a purebred Shepard. But you know what..I will probably have rescues the rest of my life. We have a lot in common rescues. Most were abused and so was I. They want a good life and hopefully I can show them how.

I'm very bothered by the H/S talking about the cats and how many have been put down. They don't care if your purebred or mutt.

The picture is shocking but also very true. I told hubby when mine go I want the bodies and will bury them myself. I couldn't stand the thought of them in a garbage dump or food for other animals. I did hear this happens with Vets that they sell the bodies for dog food places :P

We need to think of the animals and whats fair for them. Is it fair that the earth is over populated with animals and can be disguarded like yesterdays trash? I say NO!

Luba
April 10th, 2004, 05:36 PM
Thank you Chany (sweet hugs to you)


I've left space and warned about the picture, I"m sorry I should have done so to begin with. I think I was just so very angry and upset today I wasn't thinking straight, only acting from emotion.


Pls forgive me!

amaruq
April 10th, 2004, 07:20 PM
((((((Luba)))))))

Don't be sorry for showing the truth!

I'm so sorry about Heidi!!! Your a really super person!

Karin
April 10th, 2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Luba
Thank you Chany (sweet hugs to you)


I've left space and warned about the picture, I"m sorry I should have done so to begin with. I think I was just so very angry and upset today I wasn't thinking straight, only acting from emotion.


Pls forgive me!

I have seen that image live countless times. In the 1980's I worked for our countys Rabies & Animal control. I was the pound supervisor. Three times a week unclaimed animals were euthanized and brought to the county landfill. We did call ahead so they would have a fresh trench dug by the time we arrived, having up to 100 animals each visit required a trench.
This was before the county created a pet adoption program.
300 + a week. This wore on my soul. I left that very good paying job with benefits, for a part time job with half the pay and no benefits. I learned how to smile again for that move.
I have since worked in shelters and vet clinics. Still have to euthanize but I cried for everyone of them.
Two years ago I found myself unemployed and fighting cancer...bills piling up too. The county offered me my old job back, (my former partner was now the director) although times have changed and they have a great adoption program in place, and the Neuter Commuter I refused the job. The pay would set me for life, but since my surgeries I can no longer lift large animals. The number one reason I refused it was my heart was not in it either. I have a problem with killing an animal just because no one wants it.
I still blame bad breeders and owners for the massacres that happen everyday, everywhere.

Now I am crying.

Catt31
April 10th, 2004, 07:59 PM
Oh man Karin ((((( hugs )))))) You've seen a lot of horrible things..... :( It is nice to see a change in policies however small since the 80's though I bet. I love the "Neuter Commuter"....what a great concept!! Anyways, to all you ladies who do so much, and cause us many tears on this forum....thank you for what you do to help soooo many little (and big) fur bums!! You are all angels with furry tails!!! :D

Chany
April 10th, 2004, 08:04 PM
Lucky Rescue I guess I'm not communicating what I'm trying to say very well. :( And I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.
Karin I think yes there should be way more responsible owners
out there. Spaying and neutering is one of the best things we can do for our pets. ;)
Luba, why do you ask for forgiveness? There is nothing to forgive!
Those kind of pictures need to be shown!! It might sink in to more people. (we've seen how obviously well it goes to give somebody ****). I wish there were more people like you :)

mona_b
April 10th, 2004, 08:22 PM
OMG.
My tummy is sick now.
My contact popped out because of all the tears.

It is just so very heartbreaking seeing this.But this is reality.

I honestly think there should be a s/n law.And if it's not done,then a heafty fine is given out.

It's bad enough when we have to pts a loving member of our family due to health problems beyond our control,but to have these poor animals put down for lack of space or they are not wanted just ticks me off.K,so that wasn't a word I really wanted to use.

To answer your question LR, Yes,they do get s/n....Like I said,he does not sell animals in his pet store.And this is his own pet store.Lets just say this is his way of rescuing.I guess he would rather see the kittens come to him then dropped off at a shelter.

Luba
April 10th, 2004, 08:44 PM
Chany I just didn't want to upset anyone who already knows like we do! :(

Karin
I am humbled more by reading your words and I cannot fathum what you had to see and deal with.

The deeds of a job done because of greed and ignorance. Visions in your mind and memories never forgotten because of those heartless mindless people.

Karin
April 10th, 2004, 08:50 PM
Smooches to all, I did not intend to bring ya down, being Easter.

But lest we forget, just like 9/11....people who care must keep on striving to change laws and fight for those who cannot fight themselves.
We may be a small chunk here on this rock, but we can bark LOUD!
Unfortunatly this problem will still existed long after we have joined our fur friends.
Keeping the images in minds eye is a must.
Not posting pictures like that is playing ostrich. This is the real world. Bark Very Loud....

"nuf said, have a great weekend.

Coming here to this board is like puppy breath, we need to find a way to bottle it...

Luba
April 10th, 2004, 09:33 PM
I like you Karin ;)

hollybug26
April 11th, 2004, 08:23 PM
I don't think there was anything wrong with that picture Luba. I think It was terrible, but it was the truth. I cry almost everytime I come on this site. Either tears of pain from reading of some horrific mistreatment of an animal, or tears of joy from reading how much someone loved & cared for one. The truth may hurt sometimes, but it is also what is said to set you free..

Luba
April 11th, 2004, 08:28 PM
I know what you mean.

Karin
April 11th, 2004, 08:58 PM
You have to take the bad along with the good., the only way an animal lover can strive to educate those who have no idea how to become a responsible pet parent.
If everything was rosey about being a pet parent then everyone without a clue would have a pet...and that is the problem!

I have a roommate, not a pet. I work to pay for her vet bills.

Just as I did for my kids when they were young.

numberoneaggie
April 12th, 2004, 11:27 PM
After reading everyone's posts, I wanted to give you all a breeders perspective, even though I breed Abyssinians, and most of the conversation has been about dogs.

I breed because I love the Abyssinian breed. I want the breed to continue to be as beautiful and as true as it was when the Egyptians worshipped them. Every cat that comes into my house or that is born here is like my own child. When you look around my house, you will see that the cats have more possesions than I do!

Anyways, sorry, I think I'm sounding defensive and I don't mean to. I just wanted to adress Chaney's cost issue and the 'like your adopting a child' statement. I sell my kittens for $500 and do not let them go until at least 12 weeks, usually its more like 16 weeks. I have had people contact me and then tell me that they can get an Aby for $200 and at 6 weeks. They say they want a 'kitten'. I tell them to go to a shelter for a kitten and then to describe the $200 Aby. The cat they always describe is nothing like mine. Usually the kitten will have an Abyssinian mother and who knows about the father. The person selling this kitten for $200 probably bought the female from a breeder and broke the contract by not getting her spayed and now there are kittens. It disgusts me. Needless to say, anyone who has a problem with the price gets told that they will not get an Abyssinian from me. I take that back, one time a man bought two brothers from me and I gave him a $50 discount. 3 1/2 years later, he threatened to put one of them down for behavioral reasons that he created and I took the cat back. That's the end of my discounts.

I have also been told that buying a cat from me is harder than adopting a child. Well, you see, to me animals are like children. They are a LIFETIME responsibility. I birth and raise these babies and cry when they leave me. And I know I can't keep them all, so I want to make sure that they are going to have as good of a life with someone else as they would with me. If someone has a problem with that, then they don't get one of my cats. Like the man who called me when one of his cats was 3 1/2 years old. His shelter cat was beating my cat up so he was going to put the victim down! At some point in the conversation he mentioned that his daughter was two hours past curfew the night before. I asked him if he was going to euthanize her the next time she was late. I know that was extreme, but that's how I feel. When you take on a pet, its for better or worse. If something is wrong with the animal, you fix it. You spend time with it, you meet its basic needs...and you do that for life. The animal didn't pick you, you picked it out and it depends on you. There are too many vets out there who will euthanize for no reason and it gives people an easy way out.

Also, I make the people come see the kitten/cat they want at least twice. The first time I get to know them and they get to know the litter. I then give them lots of fliers and information about the breed, spaying, leukemia, FIP, and various others as well as my contract. I ask them to read it all and ask questions before they make a decision.

Also, my contracts require that all cats get fixed. I am not going to let someone breed a 'pet' quality Aby just because they want to experience having kittens. If they want that experience, they can go volunteer at the local shelter. Besides overpopulation, breeding pet quality is detrimental to the breed. Of course every cat can't be perfect and even the non-perfects are gorgeous, you want to only breed the select few that are of superb quality. I also don't generally give papers on my cats. Unless they are wanting to brag to their friends that their cat is a pedigree, the only other reason for wanting papers is to breed. This is a point that I think TICA for cats and AKC for dogs differ. I've never had anyone even request papers which to me shows that they are more interested in the cat than the papers.

As for the money issue, besides trying to help with expenses, there are several other reasons I charge money. If a person goes out and pays $500 for a cat, they will generally value/want it more. Its like with anything else. What means more to you - the free couch a friend gave you or the one you saved and bought brand new? Also, if a person is willing/able to spend $500 on a kitten, I also feel like this person will be willing to attend to any medical needs that the cat may have over its life.

And so far (aside from the one man - Max is in a WONDERFUL new home now, though!) I have found great homes for all my cats. I get updates on every single one of them at least once a year (usually more) and lots of pictures! It makes me feel so good that my cats bring so much happiness to families all over the states.

And just to let you know that I'm not profiting at all by what I do (I'm usually in the hole) here are some average expenses when I have one litter of only three kittens for four months. I look at it as if I have to have a job, they do too, lol!

Stud Fee - $500
Monthly Dry Food - $75; $300 for 4 months
Monthly Wet Food - $25; $100 for 4 months
Toys/Scratchers (yes these are necessary) - $20; $80 for 4 months
Vaccinations - $100
Vet Costs/Health Certificates - $150

That's a total of $1230 before the kittens even leave my house. That's also assuming that there are no 'problem' vet visits, which happen occasionally. Its also not including any show expenses. So even though it looks like I make $270, I'm not even taking into account the amount that its cost to take care of the queen and keep her healthy.

So you see, that's the difference between a back yard breeder and a responsible one.

Sorry this was so long, I guess I just felt the need to get it all out, lol!

doggy lover
April 13th, 2004, 09:11 AM
I believe that there some responsible backyard breeders out there, that care about their pet and their puppies\kittens. As for the picture I'm glad I know where my Travis is buried in his favorite place to be up north on our property. May his spirit roam forever free.

mona_b
April 13th, 2004, 09:46 AM
Where have you been hiding numberoneaggie?...LOL

We have seen your babies.And they are just beautiful.

Breeding cats and dogs are different though.As for cats,I don't know to much about them.Breeding that is.

But I know alot more about the dogs.

Like Chany,there are alot of people who don't know the difference between a responsible breeder and a BYB.And now she does.And is using the info to help others.

As for the registration papers,like I have stated before,it is the law with the Canadian Kennel Club.All these dogs are registered with them.And the kennels are also registered to the club.These kennels must be registered to the Kennel Club.If these dogs are sold without papers,then they are not classified as purebreds.And pedigree papers are very important.When showing the dogs,this means that they are of the breed standard.And all genetic and health testing is done.If they fail any of the testing,they do not and will not breed.

doggy lover...there are no responsible byb's...The do not test their dogs for health and genetics.And they breed in the first heat.Which no responsible breeder does.And they sell to anyone who wants a pup.They don't have a s/n contract and they don't have a non-breeding contract.And they don't have a waiting list.Hence the selling to anyone.And they don't have pedigree papers.Pedigree papers mean they can go back 5-6 generations.
So once again,there are no responsible BYB's.

All responsible licenced breeders show their dogs.

Lucky Rescue
April 13th, 2004, 11:27 AM
numberoneaggie, I agree with nearly everything you say, and it does sound like you are doing it right.

The only thing I disagree with is this:
If a person goes out and pays $500 for a cat, they will generally value/want it more.

That is sadly not true. Our rescue has had purebreed Maine Coons, Oriental shorthairs, Persians, Himalayans and Siamese - all expensive and all dumped.

As for dogs, we have helped rehome a St.Bernards, Fox Terrier, Redbone Coon hound and even a Dogue de Bordeaux ($$$) - all purebreds and all expensive, I'm sure.

We just adopted out a goregeous Red Persian whose owners wouldn't pay for surgery he needed, and right now we have a sealpoint and flamepoint Siamese looking for homes.

When someone wants an animal OUT, they don't care if they paid 1000$ for it - it's GONE!:(

numberoneaggie
April 13th, 2004, 11:47 AM
That's true, LR. Sadly, there is no guarantee what will happen once the cat leaves my house. And yes, purebreed cats and dogs end up in shelters all the time. I do have a clause in my contract that states that the cat can never be given or sold to a shelter, research facility, etc. I almost went to court over this issue, too. I reserve the right to take the cat back without compensation to them and place it in another home. I know a lot of times that these contracts aren't worth the paper their written on, but I have all the clauses in there to protect the cats. I just have try to make sure that the people who come to me realize that they are making an additon to their family and a lifetime investment.

doggy lover
April 13th, 2004, 02:03 PM
So let me get this right its OK for cat BYB but not for dog, thats the message I'm getting, and how do you know what the dogs are tested for like i said not all breeders are the same, some can't be lumped with puppy mills.:confused:

numberoneaggie
April 13th, 2004, 02:17 PM
I'm sorry you're getting that message, but that's not the point at all.

I included my information to show the side of responsible breeder, even though its cats and not dogs. I don't know if there are any dog breeders on this forum. I wanted to show how getting an animal from a responsible breeder is a much bigger process than picking one out from the bed of a truck at Wal-Mart. I also wanted to explain the reasons for the prices that are charged for animals.

At any rate, I am not a back yard breeder by any means. I am a registered cattery and my cats are all registered (even though I don't register all kittens), tested, and healthy. So I'm not sure how you got the message that I was saying back yard breeders are ok for cats and not dogs.

As for knowing what dogs get tested for - you ASK questions. All breeds are different and some are genetically predisposed for certain things. My family has always had labs and they are notorious for hip problems. A reputable breeder will have the mother and usually father present...AND LET YOU SEE THEM. If you are not allowed to see where the animals spend most of their time, something is wrong!!! A reputable breeder will know the health history of the puppy's relatives. A reputable breeder will also run the tests that are required by AKC as well as the ones necessary to that breed.

However, you as the future pet owner need to do your own research. You need to get on the internet or go to the library and read everything you can about the breed. Once you are educated, you will be able to ask educated questions.

At any rate, yes, back yard breeders and puppy mills can be lumped together. The main motivation for both is not the preservation, improvement, and health of the breed, its profit. They don't care what happens to the animal once that money is placed in their hands.

mona_b
April 13th, 2004, 03:10 PM
Like I said,I can't answer about cat breeder.I don't have the knowlege about that.

doggy lover.when a responsible breeder gets their dog tested,the vet will give them a written guarentee stating that they are clear of any health and genetic problems.They will show you this at the time when you visit them.Males are 18 months when tested and females are 24 months.Different breeds have different health and genetic problems.I have 2 GDS's.They are prone to hip and elbow dysplasia.And many other problems.Knock on wood,they have not gotten any of the problems.Both parents where tested and cleared.And my boys have been tested also.Yukon and Tron are both 8 now,and I still keep in contact with my breeder.Who is retired.

As for the dogs that LR has rehomed,10-1 they are the result of BYB's.

ALL licenced responsible breeders are the same.They all test their dogs.And will not breed them id there is a problem.
BYB's do not breed to better the breed.They do it for the money.

And BYB'S do not show their dogs.They have no titles,and I'm not just talking about the showing either.They don't know their dogs pedigree.They do not offer to take the pup back.And have no contracts.If I didn't get Yukon and Tron fixed,I would have had to pay a $5.000 doller fine.How would she have known?Well her contract stipulated that she see the vets report.

Is any of this making sense to you puppy lover?The difference between a BYB and a responsible breeder?

Catt31
April 13th, 2004, 03:20 PM
Someone posted a chart a while back that showed the difference between a backyard breeder and a responsible breeder. I thought I saved the sight, but I can't find it.

It was a reallyyy good chart, and it really helped me understand the difference. I've never considered getting a pet from a breeder when there are so many dogs and cats out there that need to be rescued, so it never really ever crossed my mind that there are people out there who just do it for money. That chart opened my eyes!!

I think it may have been LuckyRescue that posted it...does this ring a bell to anyone????:confused:

Lucky Rescue
April 13th, 2004, 03:27 PM
doggy lover, you say:
I believe that there some responsible backyard breeders out there, that care about their pet and their puppies\kittens

If they do not health test their stock for all genetic defects known to their breed, and show them to championships in conformation or performance before breeding, then how can they be responsible? What is their reason for breeding their pets?

As for numberoneaggie being a byber, everything she has said makes me think she is one of the few responsible breeders around. She shows her cats, health tests them, does not sell them too young, and has a strict contract, does follow-up and will take them back at any point in their lives.

If everyone who breeds did this, the shelters would not be so packed.

Catt31
April 13th, 2004, 03:35 PM
I found this interesting website....might help some people understand!!

http://www.adoptarescuepet.org/byb.htm

mona_b
April 13th, 2004, 03:43 PM
Here it is.:D


http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html

Catt31
April 13th, 2004, 03:46 PM
Yeahhhh!! Thanks mona!!!! :D THAT will help some people undestand too!!! I hope!!! I know it helped Tim and I understand better, and now we can relay this info to people who don't know any better!!! EDUCATION is the key!!!

Thanks!!:D

Lucky Rescue
April 13th, 2004, 03:48 PM
As for the dogs that LR has rehomed,10-1 they are the result of BYB's

Around here, the odds are they came from the booming puppy mills, via a pet store.:(

mona_b
April 13th, 2004, 03:48 PM
Great link Catt...I save this one also....:D

Catt31
April 13th, 2004, 03:54 PM
Found another one..this one made me cry!! Sniff sniff!!!

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/2453/puppy_mills.html

:(

numberoneaggie
April 13th, 2004, 03:54 PM
Wonderful site, Mona. I know for me its very easy to see the difference between the good and bad breeders, so I have a hard time understanding why other people are so confused about it. More people need to read this kind of information. Thank you so much for making it available...I'll be adding this to my information packet for hopeful homes!

numberoneaggie
April 13th, 2004, 03:58 PM
OMG Catt.....I'm crying so much after reading that. Its so sad. I wish more people could see it from the animal's point of view.

Catt31
April 13th, 2004, 04:01 PM
I know aggie...its soooo very sad!! :(

Here is another link....interesting!!

http://www.heroswaggintrain.com/bybreed_pm_book.htm

K, I'm done surfing now....too many sad articles and tears...I need to compose myself so I'm not a blubbering idiot when Tim gets home!! He already thinks I'm nuts for crying when I go onto the rescue sites and look through all the dogs and cats!!:(

mona_b
April 13th, 2004, 04:14 PM
SOOOOOOO true LR.Or as they call it"private breeder"or no this one,"hybred"...That's what they are calling them in the pet store I go in to do my educating of puppy mills.

Your sooooooooo very welcome Catt.

You can thank LR for that site.:D ....She posted it quite a while ago.And trust me,I have used it sooooooooo many times.:D

aggie,I think the reason some don't understand is because of the word "breeder"...That's why they think all breeders are good.


Oh Catt,that one just brought tears to my eyes....:(

goodgirlcasey
April 14th, 2004, 12:08 PM
Thanks to all of you who are giving out this info. I have known for some time now that puppies/kittens in petstores come from these horrible places-where else? They still have nerve to ask $800-1200 for a puppy? It breaks my heart to walk into these places and see this. Then after a week or 2 , these puppies are put on sale? I do not support petstores that sell animals like this. I do not buy from PJ Pets( in Edmonton, AB, canada) I am happy to see a number of petstores ( Petsmart, Petcetera) supporting local animal rescues by giving them time & space on a Sat afternoon( locally they let the greyhound rescue and a couple local rescues have space.) When my husband & I chose to get a dog, his dream breeed was a golden retriever. Yes, beautiful, typically good natured dog, but I have always been partial to Germ Shep as I grew up with a variety of GSD (crossed) So one sunny afternoon in Sept 1999 we wandered into our city animal shelter where I saw Casey-our name( GSD cross). At approx. 3 months old , she was sitting quietly amidst howling barking, adult dogs and something in her eyes said :" I am the one for you" She was and has been for almost 5 yrs. We were patient through her puppy growth, took puppy classes, went to the dog park so she could socialize with others and occassionally had to remind ourselves that if she got into something she shouldn't have, it was our fault for leaving it out and reachable. We laugh now at the chew marks on the remote and the missing cushion from an old chair. We are moving to an acreage and will look to getting her as friend. It will be an adoption from a shelter( sometimes, I look at purebred GSD and drool bit I would never trade Casey for anything). Probably a pup as I loved training ours.:D
Selene

mona_b
April 14th, 2004, 01:46 PM
It is horrible isn't it goodgirlcasey?

PJ's is pretty bad for it.I remember years ago going it there.They were selling a Shep/Collie for $899.Pretty pathetic wouldn't you say?

Do you have any pics of Casey?

goodgirlcasey
April 15th, 2004, 01:09 AM
Here is her webpage

http://www.pets.ca/petsites/viewpet.php?petid=1568

I gave her lots of extra pets today after reading this stuff. We really love her!:)

Luba
April 15th, 2004, 08:17 AM
Casey is beautiful
5/5 from me :D

mona_b
April 15th, 2004, 08:40 AM
WOW....

She is beautiful.I love the markings on her....:)

chico2
April 15th, 2004, 08:51 AM
I agree,one beautiful dog!!! 5/5 from me too:D

Catt31
April 15th, 2004, 09:27 AM
I agree!! VERY beautiful!!!!

I went into Petland to check out their rescue dogs....they had 2 boston terrier TYPE puppies there. Soooo cute! We asked the girl working there if they were purebred and she said yes. I then proceeded to argue with her that why were they called TYPE breeds if they weren't purebred...she didn't have an answer!! I was livid! And, to top it all off....they were charging $1300 for a puppy!! WTF???????????

Then in another tiny little shell, they had 4 dogs, 2 were clearly shi tzu's and 2 were obviously not. I didnt know the breed for sure (they looked like Cairn Terriers) so I asked the same brilliant girl, and she said they were shi tzu's. I'm like...no they aren't, those two ARE, these two are NOT. She went back to their file and came out and said...yes they are shi tzu's. They were completely 2 VERY different dogs - one was short, other had long legs, one had wiry hair, other had soft curly hair......Any idiot can see the diff!!! GOD I was soooooooo mad!!!!!! This chick was a complete and total MORON!!!!!!

I think they were about to call security when we left cuz I was so irrate!! lmao Regardless, I will never go to Petland again, even to see the rescue puppies! Bunch of dorks!!!:mad:

K, I'm done venting!!! LMAO

chico2
April 15th, 2004, 09:29 AM
Wow,reading through all the BB posts took me a while:(
The picture of dog-dump is horrific,I should not have looked at it:(
I hate to admit it,but I did get Chico from the local Pet-store,since closed for violations,my then vet and HS were instrumental at closing the store down.The reason being,they kept half-grown puppies two to very small cages,did not check in on them holiday and week-ends..
Anyway,I went in to get something I had forgotten,it was Christmas time,saw this little black thing all alone in a cage,mistakingly I picked him up,he was purring sooo loud..
When I put him back in the cage he was crying,soo sad.I could still hear him as I left the store:(
Well,half an hour later I was back in the store,I just had to take him...he was a runt and would more than likely be dumped somewhere.
The store owner strangely upped the regular charge of $69 to $89 because it was a weekend.
I also knew where he came from,they lived just down the street from me,they got $10 for each kitten they produced and they produced many to subsidize their well-fare check.
They were eventually kicked out of their rented house,because of all their more or less wild cats.
In those days I was not as aware as I am today and fell hook line and sinker for this adorable lonely little kitten wanting to come home with me.
As for the animal-dump,I have all 4 of my departed cats buried in the backyard,little Cookie the last one to pass away I buried in the same place as Sammy since they grew up together,then there is Peppi and Blue.They are buried deep to keep any creatures from getting to them,but knowing they are in their much loved backyard gives a certain comfort to me.

Lucky Rescue
April 15th, 2004, 10:24 AM
Anita I don't blame you for taking Chico - I would have done the same thing. Our heads can't always rule our hearts.:(

Many many years ago when I moved away from home, I did get a kitten at a pet store. He was about 5 weeks old, screaming in terror and infested with fleas. He turned out to be one of the most beloved of all my cats.

I never go to pet stores anymore. Ours do NOT advocate or promote adoption and have no rescued pets on site and I don't want to see the byb bred puppies and kittens they are peddling.:mad:

OH, and Casey is a GORGEOUS dog!

chico2
April 15th, 2004, 10:59 AM
Actually Lucky,I don't think we have a"Pet-Store"that sells puppies and kittens in Oakville anymore,except for Pet-Smart who has cats from HS up for adoption.
I can't be 100% sure,since I,like you do not go into these stores anymore..
I buy my cat-food,birdseeds etc....from a store called Rens feed and pet-supply,an excellent store with whole-sale prices and knowledgable staff.
I also got Rocky from there(for free)he was part of a litter from a nearby farm,no,they do not sell kittens,he was just there for a visit and I begged to get him,he was such a beautiful little Tabby and I got him.
They also adopted 2 big cats from HS,who live in the store and have a ball with all the customers.When the store is closed they go home with the owner.
It's a wonderful caring place,a feel-good place for every animal-lover.

Luba
April 15th, 2004, 11:24 AM
Hey thats a great job Oakville has done then ...wish I could say the same thing here! Disgusts me, BUT one dude moved his little dumpy store from Pickering to Scarborough because Pickering now has bylaw enforcment for pet stores that sell animals. He just moved so he wouldn't have to keep up with regulations.

Hey, Anita...you did the right thing :D

mona_b
April 15th, 2004, 12:33 PM
Well the pet store at Limeridge Mall(where I do my educating people :D ) also has kittens there.And a few are not in the best shape.Kyra has learned alot from me.She spots it out right away.

Like I have said before.There has got to be a way to have a pet store banned from selling them.I still can't get that poor Collie pup out of my head.A bit smaller then your Sadie Luba.And it was held in a small area.


Hmmmmm,maybe I can take pics of all of them.Would they let me?Like I really care it they don't....LOL

goodgirlcasey
April 15th, 2004, 11:10 PM
Thanks for all your compliments! She is a beautiful dog and so smart, somtimes I feel bad that I don't do enough to keep her entertained. She is also very loving and protective , which is something she was never taught. Is is weird to say I like her doggy smell? That I sometimes bury my face in her fur when I give her a hug? Whoa, wrong place to post!
LOL, so anyway............

chico2
April 16th, 2004, 08:53 AM
Goodgirl,no you are not any weirder than anybody else,I rub my hole face in my kitties fur and end up with a face-ful of hair,especially from Vinnie.
I look at the three of them,like right now,they are all sleeping here in the PC-room with me and I love them soo much(when they're sleeping!!)it hurts:D

Chany
April 16th, 2004, 09:10 AM
Been gone awhile and this board is busy!!
O.K to start I did not mean to offend breeders out there about making money. I really couldn't care less what you make, I was just stating what I have heard many many people say. This post was meant to show why there will be backyard breeders. As for the adoption process if they need to know that much info on me then I would like the same on them so I can see what kind of person is breeding my future pet.
As for me when I was looking for Abbey I had 2 choices, one was a lady who was definitely doing it for money. Needless to say I totally stayed away from her. But my guy was a very decent man.
He had both mom and dad, told me if I had any concerns or health problems I could bring her back, asked me quite a few questions about where she would be living, took my name and address, and when we were leaving insisted on giving me a half of a big bag of dog food for her. I was allowed to seperate the pups I wanted and spend as much time as I wanted in picking out my future baby.
So I'm sorry but he was a responsible backyard breeder.

chico2
April 16th, 2004, 09:23 AM
Luba,where was that horrific picture from? I don't want to see any web-site,but where would they leave so many dead dogs lying around like that,was it at a HS,a vet or maybe some lab somewhere,it is a heartwrenching back to reality picture:(
All that love devotion and wagging tails just thrown on a dump:-(

Lucky Rescue
April 16th, 2004, 11:02 AM
So I'm sorry but he was a responsible backyard breeder.

Really? What is his reason for breeding?

Chany
April 16th, 2004, 11:54 AM
Don't know,didn't ask. As I have stated before thought he was a responsible breeder didn't know how you caterorgized them back then. I'm assuming because he had 2 beautiful animals and loved the breed, but as I said I didn't ask.
As for breeding there are a lot of humans that reproduce that shouldn't but how are you going to stop them?
I absolutely agree that there are too many animals out there, but I didn't realize how bad I sounded until CJ Modisette came on line.
I won't behave like that anymore.
I would rather have people stay and hopefully convince them to spay and neuter than to get pissed off at them for whats already been done.
And I know in reality there are going to be backyard breeders no matter how upset I get about it.

Luba
April 16th, 2004, 04:12 PM
Anita I stumbled onto it through a link that LR posted, one link leads to another and then whamo

It was actually a pound in the U.S I believe that delivered the dogs to the land fill.

Oh I dont' wanna think about that pup Mona...it makes me cry.