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probiotics

Rottielover
April 1st, 2007, 09:21 PM
Hi all, it has come to this.....Can anyone tell me as for the supplements, is there a difference between holistic pets stores, and say the heath tree. Can I use human grade for harley??

Prin
April 1st, 2007, 09:23 PM
I use Udo's Choice Super 8 on my two doggies... I get it at a health food store. It's pretty high population compared to a lot of what's out there and it seems to help these two. (I give them 1/2 a capsule twice a day each).

http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/canada/products/TG8.asp

Skryker
April 1st, 2007, 09:37 PM
I use this one for both me and the dogs

http://www.nutritionnow.com/PB8.htm

It's $25 bucks for 60 capsules-don't know how that compares.


ETA-:mad: maybe I should order from their website-it's 14.99 for 120 caps. Even with exchange I'd be ahead!!!

Prin
April 1st, 2007, 09:40 PM
Skryker, how many billion are there per capsule? Mine are 30 billion per capsule and it's about $23 for 30 capsules...:o

Skryker
April 1st, 2007, 09:43 PM
I'll go have a look-seems they don't ship to Canada from their own site. :sad: Too bad-there is a dog chewable vitamin plus probiotic that is 60 tablets for 4.99!

Skryker
April 1st, 2007, 09:53 PM
It doesn't give a specific number per capsule. It lists a "Proprietary Probiotic Blend" of 1g per 2 caps. The blend is:

Lactobacilius acidophilus, l. plantarum, l. rhamnosus, l. cassei, l. paracasei, l. salivarius, Bifidobacterium bifidum, b. longum

plus rice maltodextrin and inulin.

Boy that was hard to type with one hand while trying to read the little print on the bottle! :D

Prin
April 1st, 2007, 09:55 PM
Weird that they don't guarantee anything.:o

See mine?
http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/canada/products/TG8.asp#1958

Rottielover
April 1st, 2007, 09:56 PM
Thank you guys, will definetly have a look, we have a health tree 5 mins from my house, so keeps paws crossed this works, he has already lost 5 lbs from lack of digestion, even though I have uped his food from 4 to 6 cups:frustrated:

Skryker
April 1st, 2007, 09:56 PM
:o I didn't really notice before. :o All is says is that they are listed in order as of time of manufacture.

Skryker
April 1st, 2007, 09:58 PM
Weird that they don't guarantee anything.:o

See mine?
http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/canada/products/TG8.asp#1958

Yep, I see it. I remember looking at your link before in a different thread, but the only store here that carries your brand is super, super expensive. So this one was the next best, I thought.

Now I wonder what's really in these things!:p

Prin
April 1st, 2007, 10:02 PM
There are cheaper ones that still have guarantees though. I think meb gets some from the pharmacy (drug store :p) that are 1.5 billion per capsule and she pays 1/3 the price...

Dracko
April 1st, 2007, 10:05 PM
PB8 is known in the industry as a good quality probiotic but I'm surprised they don't list the % of each of the strains in their formula. Makes you wonder.

-----------------------------------------------------

It isn't just the strength of a probiotic you need to look at (i.e. 5 billion, 10 billion active cells) but also that there are strains from each family present.

1) Lacto-bacilli
Receptor sites for lactobacilli are in the small intestine.

2) Bifido-bacteria
Receptor sites for bifidobacteria are in the colon (large intestine).

Plus, you need to look at the origin of each strain. Those of HUMAN origin implant and those of DAIRY/VEGETABLE are transient, which means they only stick around for a short time before passing out of the body. Obviously taking a supplement with only dairy origin (yogurt) is not idea for good intestinal flora in the body.

HUMAN ORIGIN (implant)
LACTOBACILLUS ACIDOPHILUS (Sm)
LACTOBACILLUS CASEI (Sm)
LACTOBACILLUS RHAMNOSUS (Sm)
LACTOBACILLUS SALIVARIUS (Sm)
BIFIDOBACTERIUM BIFIDUM (Lrg)
BIFIDOBACTERIUM BREVE (Lrg)
BIFIDOBACTERIUM INFANTIS (Lrg)
BIFIDOBACTERIUM LONGUM (Lrg)

DAIRY ORIGIN (transient)
LACTOBACILLUS BULGARICUS (Sm)
LACTOBACILLUS HELVETICUS (Sm)
LACTOCOCCUS LACTIS (Sm)
STREPTOCOCCUS THERMOPHILUS (Sm)

VEGETABLE ORIGIN (transient)
LACTOBACILLUS PLANTARUM (Sm)

You need to take a supplement that has strains that are from a human origin and that has some from both families so you get implantation in the large and small intestine.

It is also good to take a look at where the companies get their raw materials. The Udo's from Flora, for example, get their raw materials from Harmonium. http://www.harmonium-intl.com/success.html They are a research based company that sell top quality raw materials.

Prin
April 1st, 2007, 10:07 PM
Phew! Thanks Dracko! I'm relatively new to this probiotic stuff, so that was a relief.:o

Dracko
April 1st, 2007, 10:08 PM
Yup, your Udo's one covers all the requirements.:thumbs up

Skryker
April 1st, 2007, 10:11 PM
Good info, Dracko! I'm even newer to the probiotic thing.

But to unthread jack Rottielover's post, Harley is not digesting well? Maybe some digestive enzymes would help, too. I know that Technodoll has/is giving them to her dogs.

Prin
April 1st, 2007, 10:12 PM
Is he still eating the DVP? How is he "not digesting"?

CyberKitten
April 2nd, 2007, 12:09 AM
I buy probiotics at the health food store. There are similar brands just as good if you read the labels though at say Superstore. You have to compare them and then decide based on price and studies. Some make claims they should not and legally in Canada, (alas!), not all ingredients need to be listed so not all probiotics are alike or as good!!! My vet says yogurt is just as good in some cases with some animals and some of the studies I have read indicate that but I have probiotics on hand in case.....

They are best for pets who have to take antibiotics or have an autoimmune disease. Of course, that's true for people as well. The first study of this dates to one by a young Nova Scotia student written in the Cdn Medical Journal. She began to study them when her sister had a serious gastrointestinal problem - VERY interesting histoire!

Rottielover
April 2nd, 2007, 06:04 AM
ever since he had that damn bone stuck, his stools have been very soft, I mean very soft, or diareah. Been to the vet about this, and she thinks that he might have damaged his tummy pretty bad, and is not allowing him to digest his food correctly.
I want him back to the way he was before the damn bone incident, everything was so fine and dandy with his stool

One Beagle Girl
April 2nd, 2007, 08:54 AM
ever since he had that damn bone stuck, his stools have been very soft, I mean very soft, or diareah. Been to the vet about this, and she thinks that he might have damaged his tummy pretty bad, and is not allowing him to digest his food correctly.
I want him back to the way he was before the damn bone incident, everything was so fine and dandy with his stool

Try some slippery elm. It helps heal mucous membranes in the digestive tract. You can get it at the health food store. I gave it to P after a bone incident, and it worked like a charm!

Dracko
April 2nd, 2007, 08:55 AM
I buy probiotics at the health food store. There are similar brands just as good if you read the labels though at say Superstore. You have to compare them and then decide based on price and studies. Some make claims they should not and legally in Canada, (alas!), not all ingredients need to be listed so not all probiotics are alike or as good!!! My vet says yogurt is just as good in some cases with some animals and some of the studies I have read indicate that but I have probiotics on hand in case.....

They are best for pets who have to take antibiotics or have an autoimmune disease. Of course, that's true for people as well. The first study of this dates to one by a young Nova Scotia student written in the Cdn Medical Journal. She began to study them when her sister had a serious gastrointestinal problem - VERY interesting histoire!

Well, just like how vets have been wrong about the crap food they sell, yours is wrong about yogurt being better. It is a transient strain and does not implant and multiply in the system. Your vet is not educated on probiotics. And, when you say "research", are you refering to articles? As far as I've seen there are no double-blind tests out there comparing yogurt to multiple strain human probiotics that say it is "better". As a matter of fact, the leading supplier of raw materials for probiotics has scienfically proven it is inferior.

And, with the new NHP identifications vs the DINs on products you will see any health claims that can't be proven disappear off labels. Can't say I see any in the health food stores making outrageous claims, though. Also, last time I checked stores like Superstore didn't have a fridge to keep their probiotics in. Maybe yours is different than the ones I see. While refrigerated probiotics lose 1% strength per month. Although probiotics are in an almost dormant stage in the bottle and need to be ingested to become active, moisture and things like heat are their biggest enemies. I can't see a probiotic that is on a shelf being "as good" as that in a health food store.

SuperWanda
April 2nd, 2007, 09:34 AM
I use Bio-K for myself and my dogs which I purchase from the health food store. It is a living culture found in the refridgerated section.

This is their website:

http://www.biokplus.com/Products.aspx?nav_id=3654&lang_id=A

I find it is pretty potent so if you aren't having a problem with illness or antibiotics they recommend 1 Tbsp for daily use. I take half of that - my dogs get even less - I give them 1/2 tsp.

I once e-mailed the company about giving it to my dogs and this is what they said:

Thank you for your interest in our product.

Concerning you question, it is safe to use Bio-K+ on animals. Some of our clients use it for their pets and have had good results. The product was given to various animals such as dogs, cats, hamster, horses and chimpanzee. We also send some products to an animal care, Founa Foundation, which uses it on the animals suffering from health damage following intensive clinical trials, to restore their flora and improve their quality of life.

We do not have any clinical studies demonstrating the exact dosage to use according to the animal but based on observations, the doses can vary between a couple of teaspoons for small animals to 2 bottles per day for big animal such as horses. You can adjust the dosage according to your pet’s size. We also recommend that you give the original flavor rather than the fruity flavored product.

I hope this information was useful and please do not hesitate to contact me for further questions.


Regards,

Research and Development Manager
Bio-K+ International Inc.
495, boul. Armand-Frappier
Laval, Quebec, H7V 4B3
tel.:(450) 978-2465 ext.246
fax.:(450) 978-9729
cmenard@biokplus.com
www.biokplus.com

Prin
April 2nd, 2007, 05:34 PM
I agree with Dracko. No way does the probiotic population in yogurt even compare to that in capsules. Even the "fortified" ones. Yogurt is great, but it's not an efficient probiotic source.

SuperWanda
April 2nd, 2007, 05:47 PM
Didn't know if you were referring to the Bio-K but it isn't yogurt.

I agree too - yogurt doesn't pack the same punch!

Prin
April 2nd, 2007, 07:42 PM
No, no, not the Bio-K, just yogurt in general... Just in reference to this:

My vet says yogurt is just as good in some cases with some animals and some of the studies I have read indicate that

:shrug: I agree though. Pure probiotics pack way more punch.

Dracko
April 2nd, 2007, 11:00 PM
I agree that Bio-K is a well regarded probiotic in the health food stores. I do not have any idea if what they say is true so I can't say one way or another. But, if the way they market it is in fact how active the product is, it would be very benificial. I am not sure what the strains are or how alive it is, but I do know many Naturopaths who prescribe it. I've tried it and it tastes like sour cream to me. :yuck: :laughing: So I stick with pills. If it is active and contains non transient strains it would be idea to add to your pet's foods.

Prin
April 2nd, 2007, 11:03 PM
I can't take those gigantic capsules, so I tried to mix them in milk... Didn't work so well. I ended up drinking like a litre of milk to get 1/2 a cap worth down. :laughing:

meb999
April 3rd, 2007, 06:55 AM
yup, I buy mine at the drug store, but you usually have to ask the pharmacist, because they're usually behind the counter (in the fridge)
They're more affordable, and they've worked for us :shrug:
I get the Swiss ones, but they have other makes...

CyberKitten
April 3rd, 2007, 06:06 PM
I am not going to defend my vet - she has her good and bad pts as they all do and I used yogurt when my bunny has digestive probs - bunnies not having the best digestive system, or at least shaky ones anyway - and a little yogurt worked excellently for him. I suspect it depends on the illness. I think probiotics have their place and that is mostly in helping the good bacteria do what they do best but yogurt can also cause this. I think in serious problems, probiotics probably have more bang that yogurt. Several nutritionists agreed with my vet (I did not merely take her word for it, I tend to be skeptical of everything, lol) so I went with that and have no complaints.

That said if I had a pet who was given probiotics by a vet, I would want to know why and do a ton of research!! Read the research first and don't just depend on mine or anyone else anecdotal experiences which are just that - and hardly scientific. In fact, merely because yogurt worked with my rabbit does not mean it would have the same effect on another animal or even another bunny!!

We had little nutrition in med school but I fortunately also studied biochem so that helped me immensely when I have to make decision! And Gawd knows, we need good nutritionists in working with animals. We have so many pep0le with experience and know how but I really want to see some applied research and people with backgrounds in provide us with better info than I feel I am getting from vets, stores, techs who are fine in certain areas but certainly not nutritionists and others. I am developing my own food for my cats and it is no simple task - my vet is not keen on it but none of them are and while in some cases, it is profit driven, in many cases, it's what they are used to I think. I wish raw was a better solution but with cats (like bunnies in a way) having such delicate systems, I in no way need to cause salmonella or some Godforsaken illness so I even stopped the raw children hearts awhile back. I cook them now.

I actually have discussed with a tech journal about writing an article about doing some research tho the experimental group will have to be selected amg ppl I know and I question the ethics of that so I'll have on of my grad assistants select the members of both. The problem is I want my cats in the experimental group, lol And I chair an ethics committee, oh my!!!!! Still, it is a study that needs to be done and I have worked out an agreement with the Vet College in PEI. Wish us luck!!! And crss your fingers, lol :fingerscr :fingerscr

Prin
April 3rd, 2007, 06:19 PM
That said if I had a pet who was given probiotics by a vet, I would want to know why and do a ton of research!! Read the research first and don't just depend on mine or anyone else anecdotal experiences which are just that - and hardly scientific. In fact, merely because yogurt worked with my rabbit does not mean it would have the same effect on another animal or even another bunny!!

We had little nutrition in med school but I fortunately also studied biochem so that helped me immensely when I have to make decision!



Umm... wouldn't microbiology be more pertinent to choosing probiotics than biochemistry? :confused: Biochem didn't teach me anything about bacteria, really other than the lac operon and other operons, which have nothing to do with any of this. :confused:

I think probiotics have their place and that is mostly in helping the good bacteria do what they do best but yogurt can also cause this.Probiotics don't HELP the good bacteria, they ARE the good bacteria. Yogurt contains good bacteria too, just in much, much inferior numbers than any probiotic capsule. That's why yogurt is pretty well a waste of time for treating anything. It's better than nothing at all, but certainly not better than probiotic capsules.

Prin
April 3rd, 2007, 06:25 PM
so I even stopped the raw children hearts awhile back. I cook them now.That's good though. :D

CyberKitten
April 3rd, 2007, 06:28 PM
Depends what area of biochem you are in - I did a PhD in it - that is more courses than i even want to think about, rofl - I tended to concentrate on the microbiology/cytology/ aspects ot it since I did the MD-Phd program. Of course now we have nanotech and many other new areas. But biochem is essential for anyone in nutrition. One needs to know the effect of the various chemicals on electrolytes and other processes in the body. I suspect that is why it is called BIOchem, <g>

Anyway - that's my experience. I have seen a few bad basic biochem teac hers/profs who hate teaching and whose main objective is research and they do not make enough of an impact on the student. I hope you did not have profs like that in your biochem courses.

Prin
April 3rd, 2007, 06:36 PM
One needs to know the effect of the various chemicals on electrolytes and other processes in the body.Yes, but probiotics are NOT chemicals.

CK, I'm not here to argue with you, especially not in this thread. You have to realize though when you post that you're a doctor in every single post, people tend to believe what you say and posting false information can be detrimental. :shrug:

pitgrrl
April 3rd, 2007, 08:13 PM
Try some slippery elm. It helps heal mucous membranes in the digestive tract. You can get it at the health food store. I gave it to P after a bone incident, and it worked like a charm!

I just thought I'd second this suggestion, along with the probiotics. One of my dogs has had some serious GI issues in the past little while and slippery elm and a good probiotic helped a ton.

meb999
April 3rd, 2007, 08:15 PM
I used the probiotics along with a digestive aid (they're not in the fridge) but you'll find both at the pharmacy....
I've also heard good things about slippery elm....

Dracko
April 3rd, 2007, 11:40 PM
ISeveral nutritionists agreed with my vet (I did not merely take her word for it, I tend to be skeptical of everything, lol) so I went with that and have no complaints. Then those "nutritionists" knowledge is severly outdated and they do not have an understanding of how probiotics work in the body.

That said if I had a pet who was given probiotics by a vet, I would want to know why and do a ton of research!! Why? What is so "dangerous" about probiotics that it requires "tons of research?" Probiotics would be about the safest thing any vet could suggest and would essentially be harmless if taken and not needed. If you start at a too high dosage a loosening of the bowel or some mild GI upset is the worst that one would encounter.


CK, if you want to know about probiotics you should go to the source of the majority of the raw materials out there, Harmonium. THEY are the ones who have done the vast majority of research. I can most definetly pass on a name for you to contact if you wish.

Harmonium International Inc.
17 975 Des Gouverneurs
Mirabel (Québec)
Canada
J7J 2J5

Telephone:
450.433-9139
1.877.433.9139 (Canada and US)

Fax:
450.433.9722

Email:
info@harmonium-intl.com


The fact is, as I stated earlier and fortunately Prin seems to understand, that yogurt is a DAIRY source probiotic. It is transient and does NOT implant. The strain lives in the small intestine and NOT the large. Some yogurt companies you will see adding LACTOBACILLUS CASEI. (http://www.dannon.com/dn/dnstore/cgi-bin/Brand_Cat_240859_NavRoot_200_ID_253247.htm) This is because they know that yogurt is inferior for any therapeutic purpose. L.casei is a HUMAN strain probiotic and IMPLANTS in the small intestine. Still, though, you have no strain for the large intestine/colon. Oh, and the yogurt company Dannon that adds the L.casei gets their probiotics from Harmonium. I am not saying yogurt isn't a bad choice of food and doesn't give some benefits (if the culture is alive), but you would have to eat yogurt at every meal, every day to provide an ongoing supply of probiotics to the body.

All I can say is that you can't simply try to say someone is qualified to prescribe or be the ultimate authority on nutraceuticals cuz they are a vet or nutritionist. Fact is, just like with MD's, the majority of vets out there are only trained in allopathic treatments. Nutritionists are also NOT trained on nutrition in the "holistic" sense whatsoever. Vets/nutritionist/MD's/etc who choose to join ranks of the "natural" solutions have to take the training on their own. It is NOT a part of their regular curriculum as you should know since you have a science background. I applaud your desire to seek natural tx out, but please don't suggest that vets out there are "holistic" minded on a whole. For most it's a shot in the dark when they suggest natural treatments. This would be the reason why most MD's put down natural supplements. Complete lack of knowledge.

Anyone who actuallly finds a vet out there who has up-to-date knowledge of natural treatments and is willing to pass that knowledge on is lucky.

K9Friend
April 4th, 2007, 03:35 PM
A few years ago, my GSD had serious stomach problems, vets weren't sure it had been a virus, something she ate, and after many meds (antibiotics, even LOSEC! there was some serious vomiting with blood going on)...my last visit to the vet suggested I give my dog the following probiotics product:

Acute Care
made by Centaur VA Animal Health, Guelph Ontario
$30 for 60CC - she got one tube a day for 4 days.
contains: yeast extract, dehydrated primary yeast, mucilage, dried apple pectin pulp, yeast fermentation solubles, direct-fed microbials, B-Vitamins..(yeah, I kept the container..:o )
aspergillis oryzae
bacillus subtilus
saccharomyces cervisiae

It got rid of her stomach probs and she was A-1 in no time! :thumbs up This stuff was amazing!

Dracko
April 4th, 2007, 05:31 PM
You were fortunately you had a vet who didn't just try to pile on additional meds but prescribed something to fix the problem associated with the antibiotic useage. I am always so happy when I hear stories like this. :thumbs up

Rottielover
April 5th, 2007, 08:01 PM
Hi guys thought I would update you on harley, we just got back from the vet about his ear, all clear, she has no clue what it might have been.
BUT I weighed him today, as I always do when we are at the vet. he went down from 105 last week to 102.1lbs.
I told her I am starting him on probiotics and she was happy with that. This is our next step. I have chosen to go with natures farmacy in the states, it is a powder form, I spoke to the woman for over an hour. She taught me alot.

I bumped into someone I have not seen in ages, and the first thing that came out her mouth was where did harley go, he loss muscle. I am not the only one who is seeing this.
After a month on the probiotics, if weight gain and digestion does not get better, we are having his pancreas tested for damage.
Boy oh boy, when will this end.....Pray that they work for him.....Thank you all for your ideas.

Prin
April 5th, 2007, 08:14 PM
Powder form but refridgerated? You don't want "fermentation products", you want live bacteria...

TeriM
April 5th, 2007, 08:29 PM
Sending good vibes for Harley :goodvibes: .

I have used probiotics in a powder form that were regular, refridgerated stuff. The dose was 1/4 tsp which is probably the equivalent of a capsule.

mafiaprincess
April 5th, 2007, 08:34 PM
Sounds unrefrigerated "plus a unique ability to withstand high temperatures and long term storage (up to 2 years). You won’t have to worry about leaving the tubes or jars in the van!!"