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Nutrience Cat Food

wmarcello
March 21st, 2007, 12:24 AM
Hi, new member here.

I've searched some of the forums here and can't seem to find much about Nutrience cat food. This is what we're feeding our two 11-month-old cats right now, and they seem to be doing quite well on it. It also seems to be by far the best bang for the buck at our local pet store out of all the advertised "premium" brands. I was just curious as to how you guys think it stacks up (first of all how it stacks up to the stuff in the grocery stores, but also how it stacks up to what you guys consider premium).

I'll link to the "original" adult formula, but they also have a "premium" and "alternative" formula on the site.

http://www.nutrience.com/english/cat/c-2013_original_3kg.html

INGREDIENTS:
Chicken meal, ground corn, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), brewers rice, dried beet pulp, dried egg product, chicken flavor, yeast culture, salt, potassium chloride, DL-methionine, L-lysine, calcium propionate (preservative), rosemary extract, yucca schidigera extract, ascorbic acid (vitamin C), iron proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc methionine complex, zinc oxide, sodium selenite, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, copper proteinate, copper sulfate, inositol, niacin, taurine, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, vitamin A acetate, riboflavin, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid.

EDIT: Btw, for comparison purposes, the other brands of cat food available at my local pet store or vet are:
Nutro, Science Diet, Purina Pro-Plan, Techni-Cal, Iams, Eukanuba, Feline Plus, and Medi-Cal.

Quins-mum
March 21st, 2007, 12:31 AM
gawd, u want to talk about petfood at the mo???? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: .
I dont think Nutrience is on the recalled pet food list. I tried it on my cat and dog, and neither seemed to like it. I thought it would be good for them as it has all the plants and herbs in it.

Quins-mum
March 21st, 2007, 12:32 AM
have you seen the threat about recalled food? Just incase you decide to change brands.

wmarcello
March 21st, 2007, 12:39 AM
Haha yes I'm well aware of the recall. I've been reading newsgroup posts about it as much as possible this past week. My two cats may have shared a small can of a tainted Iams product last week, but thankfully most of it was almost immediately regurgitated. I thought the reason may have been that the boy had eaten it too fast, but after hearing about the recall and seeing that particular can on the list, I can only assume it was part of the batches affected. Thankfully they have since been to the vet and have been acting as frisky as ever.

Quins-mum
March 21st, 2007, 12:42 AM
thats good to hear. :thumbs up

rainbow
March 21st, 2007, 01:08 AM
I do not like any of Nutrience's formulas and I don't know how they can call one of them holistic. :eek:

They all use ground corn and in wake of the recent recall I would definitely not use any food with wheat or wheat gluten or corn or corn gluten. They can all be susceptible to various toxic moulds.

EDIT: Btw, for comparison purposes, the other brands of cat food available at my local pet store or vet are:
Nutro, Science Diet, Purina Pro-Plan, Techni-Cal, Iams, Eukanuba, Feline Plus, and Medi-Cal.

All of these brands are just as bad.

Do you not have a local pet store (not a chain store) that carries the premium brands like Felidae, Innova, Natural Balance, etc?

Prin
March 21st, 2007, 01:10 AM
Ok, do you still want opinions? It's called "premium" but it's not premium at all.:o

compare those ingredients with these, of Felidae:
http://www.canidae.com/cats/cat_and_kitten/dry.html
Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat, (Preserved with mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Eggs, Flax Seed Meal, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Linoleic Acid, Amaranth, DL Methionine, Taurine, Kelp, Cranberries, Apples, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Inulin (from Chicory Root), Dried Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (source of B2), Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Papaya, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

Do you see how much meat is in this food? Do you see how there's no corn? Cats and dogs can't digest corn very well. It's in there as a filler- it boosts the protein numbers and is VERY cheap. Meat, on the other hand, is very digestible, but expensive. :shrug:

In the Nutrience, the brewers rice, dried beet pulp, dried egg product are all by-products of human food processes. The brewer's rice is a by-product of the alcohol industry. The beet pulp is a stool hardener, mostly sugars, and is the leftovers after the juice is removed. The dried egg product is anything eggy that is unfit for human consumption.

Menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity) in the Nutrience is vitamin K3, which is a synthetic version of vitamin K that was banned for human consumption. It causes free radicals which can lead to tumors and cancers among other problems. Most of the real premium food companies have removed it already.

I hope that helps a little... Felidae is one of the best cat foods out there (right now).

rainbow
March 21st, 2007, 01:57 AM
Here's a good and informative website to check out: www.dogfoodproject.com ....click on the links on the left hand side of the page...especially "Ingredients to Avoid". :)

Quins-mum
March 21st, 2007, 02:00 AM
the brewers rice, dried beet pulp, dried egg product are all by-products of human food processes. The brewer's rice is a by-product of the alcohol industry. The beet pulp is a stool hardener, mostly sugars, and is the leftovers after the juice is removed. The dried egg product is anything eggy that is unfit for human consumption.



****... I never knew that. I always guessed that with all the herbs and spices that it would have been good for the animals.
Guess not.
Thanks prin... I guess that now with the recall, things in the pet food industry will NEED to change!

Prin
March 21st, 2007, 02:08 AM
Don't count on it. :o It's us, the consumers who have to learn and be choosy.:) :sad:

rainbow
March 21st, 2007, 02:11 AM
I agree. It's us, as the consumers, that have to email the companies to let them know how we feel. But, even that may be a lost cause. :sad: So, we just have to make our own informed decisions and try to convince as many people as we can. :fingerscr

Prin
March 21st, 2007, 02:14 AM
Just look at menadione- it has been removed from so many dog foods as a result of public pressure, but not from as many cat foods... Speaking up really does help, but people need to learn before they can really speak up.

Quins-mum
March 21st, 2007, 02:16 AM
[QUOTE=Prin;395192]Just look at menadione-/QUOTE]

Whats that? I've never heard of it.... opps im thread-jacking now!

Just looked at Lexies cat biscuits, its got Menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity)... is it bad???

rainbow
March 21st, 2007, 02:19 AM
Yeah, I can remember when I first brought up the menadione issue and had emailed soooo many companies and got only a few replies. :frustrated:

Prin
March 21st, 2007, 02:19 AM
lol I explained it above.:D

Menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity) in the Nutrience is vitamin K3, which is a synthetic version of vitamin K that was banned for human consumption. It causes free radicals which can lead to tumors and cancers among other problems. Most of the real premium food companies have removed it already.

You want vitamin K1, not vitamin K3 in your food. K1 is natural. K3 is baaaad. ;)

Prin
March 21st, 2007, 02:20 AM
Yeah, I can remember when I first brought up the menadione issue and had emailed soooo many companies and got only a few replies. :frustrated:

I remember that. They wouldn't admit it was bad. :rolleyes: :frustrated:

Quins-mum
March 21st, 2007, 02:21 AM
Lexies fav biscuits have that in it. Im ringing the manufacturer tomorrow! Thanks for the info. They dont say what vitamin K it is tho.

Prin
March 21st, 2007, 02:23 AM
Usually, if it says "vitamin K supplement" it's K3, unless the manufacturer says specifically somewhere it's K1... Menadione is K3...

Quins-mum
March 21st, 2007, 02:26 AM
right... thats that bag of biscuits in the bin! and tomorrow Im on the phone to the manufacturers! :mad:

I am going to become pain in the ass to these companies in NZ who are adding this! that is my new mission!
Any more info or any more bad stuff that I should be aware off ... please let me know... my misson starts tomorrow!

Prin
March 21st, 2007, 02:27 AM
lol there's so much more, but you can start with menadione.:D

Quins-mum
March 21st, 2007, 02:32 AM
Just sent them an email... no doubt I wont hear back unless I hound them

rainbow
March 21st, 2007, 02:34 AM
YAY Quins-mum....you'll end up on some black lists like Prin and me. :D

rainbow
March 21st, 2007, 02:36 AM
I remember that. They wouldn't admit it was bad. :rolleyes: :frustrated:

It was only Michele from Petcurean and Peter from Champion Foods that said they would look into it. At least I got two of them converted. :D

Quins-mum
March 21st, 2007, 02:58 AM
YAY Quins-mum....you'll end up on some black lists like Prin and me. :D

Shux... thanks... I've already sent the company (Purina)... (oh, I can already hear you all gasp in horror).. and email, and have emailed two of our national sports heros, who promote the product (sarah Ulmer - olympic gold medalist cyclist and hamish Carter, gold medalist tri-athelete) an email to their fan clubs address. Not holding my breath, but these guys are real animal lovers, so hopefully they can help:fingerscr

wmarcello
March 21st, 2007, 09:20 AM
Thanks guys for all your opinions! I do have some more questions/concerns though.

@Prin
That Felidae cat food does look incredibly good. Unfortunately I haven't seen that around here, nor a couple of the other brands that are often mentioned here. We have a Pets Unlimited here, and a smaller local pet store about 15 minutes away. I know for a fact that the former doesn't carry it, and I don't think I've seen it at the latter either.

That said, I do want to mention that I may not be looking for the complete top-of-the-line for my cats. I know it sounds bad when said flat out, but in reality, I don't even feed myself top-of-the-line foods all the time. I eat white rice and white pasta instead of whole grain most of the time. I drink coffee in the morning. I eat frozen dinners at work quite often. I'm in good shape and I try to take care of myself, but I'm not constantly running on premium stuff. The same would go if I had kids. I would probably feel ok feeding them apple juice or something from concentrate. Sure it's not completely fresh, but it's a hell of a lot better than kool-aid or pop. Going back to my cats, we used to feed them Whiskas but after doing some research we've tried to move them to something a bit healthier. I believe it's a good step. I've come here to see how much farther we can go while still remaining reasonable and economic. I would love to feed them that Felidae food you mentioned, but I probably wouldn't if it was costing me 2-3 times what I pay now.

Anyways, your points about by-products and vitamin K in Nutrience have been noted. It's definitely something I'd like to further research.

One point I'm having trouble understanding 100% is the corn issue. I've heard two different arguments. First of all, rainbow mentioned toxic molds. I can totally see the concern there, but isn't any ingredient dangerous if stored improperly? Also, I did a search for "pet food myth corn digestible". One site I came across was this one:

http://www.beowulfs.com/magazine/corn.htm

"According to "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition", 4th Edition," corn is 91% digestible. This immediately dispels the myth that corn is not digestible. The story goes... look at how corn comes out when we eat corn on the cob (or some variation on the same crude story), so it can't be very digestible. The reason an ingredient list for pet food says "ground corn" instead of just "corn" is because whole corn is finely ground before it is added to the food. The outer layer of the corn kernel is impervious to stomach acid and grinding the corn is necessary to expose the very digestible inner part of the kernel to the digestive process. Unfortunately, there are people that would rather sell their "corn free" product than to give out correct information. Interestingly, many of these companies do not have access to the corn growing states. The most basic research can attest to the high digestibility of ground corn."

It's hard to know who to believe. I do understand that cats should get most of their protein from meat sources. That's why I picked Nutrience in the first place, because at least they have chicken meal as the first ingredient, which is better than I can say for some of the other brands I listed, and especially the brands in the grocery store that use grain products as their main source of protein. I do find it hard to believe though that every brand I listed is complete garbage. There must be at least some positives to be found, even if they're not as good as some of the top-of-the-line brands out there.

Anyways, I very much appreciate your opinions. I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, I'm just trying to become as educated as I can on the subject. Thanks!

RolandsMom
March 21st, 2007, 09:27 AM
I realise i am coming in at the end of this but i researched the Vitamin K3 adn its interesting to read. nasty stuff really!


Menadione
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Vitamin K3)
Menadione

Chemical name 2-methylnaphthalene-1,4-dione
Other names menadione
vitamin K3
Chemical formula C11H8O2
Molecular mass 172.18 g/mol
CAS number [58-27-5]
Density ? g/cm3
Melting point 102 C
Boiling point ? C
SMILES O=C(C(C)=C1)C2=C(C=CC=C2)C1=O
Disclaimer and references
Menadione is a polycyclic aromatic ketone, based on 1,4-naphthoquinone, with a 2-methyl substituent.
It was formerly sometimes called vitamin K3, although derivatives of naphthoquinone without the sidechain in the 3-position cannot exert all the functions of the K vitamins. Menadione is a vitamin precursor of K2 which utilizes alkylation in the liver to yield menaquinones (MK-n, n=1-13; K2 vitamers), and hence, is better classified as a provitamin.
Despite the fact that it can serve as a precursor to various types of vitamin K, menadione is generally not used as a nutritional supplement. Large doses of menadione have been reported to cause adverse outcomes including hemolytic anemia due to G6PD deficiency, neonatal brain or liver damage, or neonatal death in some cases. Moreover, menadione supplements have been banned by the FDA because of their high toxicity. Menadione has been used experimentally as a chemotherapic agent for cancer, ca 1945, but has lost ground to much safer, human form, vitamin K2 vitamers. Low level menadione is still used as an inexpensive micronutrient for livestock in many countries.
Lately, Menadione has been mentioned again as a treatment for cancer in conjunction with Vitamin C (See "The end of cancer" by April Kirkendoll) but modern researchers and trials are investigating nontoxic K2 vitamers such as menaquinone-4[1] in conjunction with more comprehensive regimens.

RolandsMom
March 21st, 2007, 09:31 AM
wmarcello, i use Solid Gold. its up there with the good ones (i would say top ten as far as ingriedients are concerned) and its super affordable.

Scott_B
March 21st, 2007, 09:42 AM
cats are carnivors. Have you ever seen a cat hunting corn stocks? Its a filler. Used to simply raise the protein levels of the food.

I understand the "i dont erat healthy, so why should my pet?"...well, kinda, but you also eat an assorment and huge variety of foods. Your cat doesnt. It gets the same processed food, day in, day out. Thats like saying my kids eat Macdonalds at every meal. Nothing else for their entire lives. Sure, they'll live, but they wont thrive. Thats why its better to provide a better quality if you can.

Check out the websites of some of the better brands. Most have store locators so you can find a local store.

krdahmer
March 21st, 2007, 02:37 PM
My mom and dad are still feeding Nutrience despite my trying to disuade them it's all their kitties have ever had. They have 9 yr old and 2 yr old female cats who are perfectly healthy and happy. There is much debate about food here on this forum and I have learned a lot from others here. Of course up until a few months ago I thought the Nutro I was feeding was good, until Fagan got a possible food allergy and I now have to stay away from the 'fillers' like wheat and corn gluten. But the extra money I've had to spend buying my food at the vets turned out to be a blessing (with all the recalls). I now use Medi-cal, The hypo-gastro formula. I've also tried brands like Wellness, which Windy had trouble digesting, and Blue Buffalo, that they all liked entirely too much and gained weight.
And thanks to Prin, I printed out some of that post for my folks.

Good luck choosing!:)

rainbow
March 21st, 2007, 03:34 PM
That Felidae cat food does look incredibly good. Unfortunately I haven't seen that around here

Here is a list of stores that sell Felidae in Fredericton, N.B. They probably sell the other better cat foods mentioned as well.

http://www.canidae.com/company/storelocator.html

Prin
March 21st, 2007, 03:49 PM
The reason an ingredient list for pet food says "ground corn" instead of just "corn" is because whole corn is finely ground before it is added to the food. The outer layer of the corn kernel is impervious to stomach acid and grinding the corn is necessary to expose the very digestible inner part of the kernel to the digestive process. Unfortunately, there are people that would rather sell their "corn free" product than to give out correct information. Interestingly, many of these companies do not have access to the corn growing states. The most basic research can attest to the high digestibility of ground corn."
Yeah, that's just not true.:o I'm sorry, but if you just compare the stools of two dogs, one fed corn food and one fed corn-free food, you'll see the difference. The stool of the dog fed corn will undoubtedly be bigger, lighter in color AND tastier to stool-eating dogs around. Why tastier? Because it's so rich in protein because it passes through undigested.

If you don't grind flaxseed, you don't digest it. If you grind it, you digest it much better. But that's just not the case with corn. :shrug:

Who to believe? Why not try a good food for a bag and see for yourself? It won't hurt to try it, and you might be surprised at the results. If you're not surprised, you can always switch back.:) It's much easier to switch back to a food like Nutrience anyway, because it's so loaded with stool hardners and digestive aids, that the cat will barely have to digest any of it on its own. :thumbs up Holistic food is harder to digest in the beginning because our animals have to relearn how to digest on their own... :rolleyes:

wmarcello
March 21st, 2007, 04:51 PM
@rainbow:
Thanks for the link. Fredericton came up with 6 hits. Five of them I didn't know existed, and the last one is the one I mentioned earlier where I didn't think they carried the stuff. Fortunately though on the way home, before even reading your post, I stopped by and saw that they carried Felidae among other brands mentioned here. Some of the brands were ridiculously expensive (like Wellness) and I would probably never buy them for that reason alone. I was however pleasantly surprised that Felidae was quite affordable. It was actually cheaper per Kg than many of the brands I listed at the beginning (Nutro, Pro Plan, Techni-Cal, Feline Plus, and Eukanuba), and the ingredients seem much better. The only ones cheaper were Nutrience, Iams, and Science Diet. I initially didn't pick Iams and SD because of the by-products and grain being used as the main source of protein. I figured Nutrience at least used chicken meal as the main source. Anyways, all that to say that I'll definitely mention Felidae to the other half, and more than likely we'll at least give it a try.

@prin
I'm still having trouble knowing what info to trust. I'll take your word on the dog stool ;) , but I find it hard to believe that product sites like the one previously listed and big product sites like Purina would be able to just blatantly lie like that.

http://www.purina.com.sg/caredog_article2.html

Scott_B
March 21st, 2007, 04:59 PM
Well, is Purina..of course they're going to market ingredients in order to sell their product. We have nothing to gain on this site by making things up and recomending some foods over others. Purina has everything to gain. Its all about $$$$$$

wmarcello
March 21st, 2007, 05:04 PM
Well, is Purina..of course they're going to market ingredients in order to sell their product. We have nothing to gain on this site by making things up and recomending some foods over others. Purina has everything to gain. Its all about $$$$$$

And everything to lose. They have a marketing division. There's no way they would be so blatant in their false advertising.

I'm assuming that their data is right, but there is something that they are not mentioning. I want to know what they're not mentioning.

Scott_B
March 21st, 2007, 05:08 PM
Its all in the wording. 99% of the people who buy their product never read whats in it. And if they did, theyy'd read its 91% digestabl. Hmm, must be good then.

Think about it..Its a cheap filler. Where would dogs or cats EVER eat corn in the wild? Roaming the neighbourhood? They wouldnt. So why put it in pet food? Cheap filler that people make money off of selling to pet food companies. Simple as that.

wmarcello
March 21st, 2007, 05:11 PM
Yeah, that's just not true.:o I'm sorry, but if you just compare the stools of two dogs, one fed corn food and one fed corn-free food, you'll see the difference. The stool of the dog fed corn will undoubtedly be bigger, lighter in color AND tastier to stool-eating dogs around. Why tastier? Because it's so rich in protein because it passes through undigested.


From dogfoodproject.com in the carb section:

"Corn often gets an undeserved bad reputation. While it is not acceptable as a main source of protein in a dog food (as it is used in combination with corn gluten), as a source of carbohydrates it is no better and no worse than other grains in terms of nutritional value and digestibility. The starch part of corn is highly digestible but the whole ground product has a higher fiber content than other grains (around 7%), which results in slightly larger stools - often incorrectly interpreted as lack of digestibility. Unless an individual dog is intolerant or allergic to corn, there is no need to avoid products which include it in reasonable amounts."

This seems to support the data I previously posted, unless this is only true for dogs and not cats...

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts

wmarcello
March 21st, 2007, 05:16 PM
Its all in the wording. 99% of the people who buy their product never read whats in it. And if they did, theyy'd read its 91% digestabl. Hmm, must be good then.

Think about it..Its a cheap filler. Where would dogs or cats EVER eat corn in the wild? Roaming the neighbourhood? They wouldnt. So why put it in pet food? Cheap filler that people make money off of selling to pet food companies. Simple as that.

I'm not debating whether it's filler. I know it's there to pad the protein figures and cut down the reliance on expensive meat protein. I'm debating whether the corn is actually digestible.

From Prin's original comment about Felidae:
"Do you see how much meat is in this food? Do you see how there's no corn? Cats and dogs can't digest corn very well. It's in there as a filler- it boosts the protein numbers and is VERY cheap. Meat, on the other hand, is very digestible, but expensive."

Prin
March 21st, 2007, 05:17 PM
Yep, there is tons of info out there to support both sides, but IMO, if you get off corn, you'll never go back. You'll just see the difference. :shrug:

wmarcello
March 21st, 2007, 05:30 PM
Yep, there is tons of info out there to support both sides, but IMO, if you get off corn, you'll never go back. You'll just see the difference. :shrug:

I never really doubted that. I understood that corn was an inferior and cheaper source of protein. I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't going to cause my kitties serious digestion problems, and from the info on dogfoodproject it seems like it won't. Now the info about the K3 vitamin and the digestive aids... that I didn't know. Those would be my main reasons to try something new. Now that I've checked the pet store and found that I can get a superior product at a reasonable price, there's a very good chance I'll give it a try when their current food runs out.

Thanks again guys!

Prin
March 21st, 2007, 05:33 PM
It's not harmful to feed corn. But IMO, your cat will be healthier on a food without corn, mainly because the ingredients are generally of higher quality and the proteins are better digested. Too low protein in a cat or dog food can cause serious issues. If corn accounts for a substantial amount of that protein, and your cat isn't absorbing half of it, you could end up with trouble. :shrug:

rainbow
March 21st, 2007, 05:50 PM
I agree with Prin on the corn issue. But, there is another thing to keep in mind about corn and corn gluten, wheat, wheat gluten, etc. Corn and wheat are both susceptible to the mould toxins that are fatal to our pets. Therefore, I would never buy any food that contains them. :)

rainbow
March 21st, 2007, 05:51 PM
wmarcello, I hope you seriously give the Felidae a try. :)