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He bit me!

erykah1310
March 20th, 2007, 11:10 PM
I could hear rustling downstairs so i went to investigate, and Bailey was ripping up some garbage. Whatever... I walked over to him and firmly said "NO"
I guess I startled him or caused some fear based reaction because he came at me teeth bared and snarling. He bit my leg:eek: Didnt break skin or anything, Im wearing pants. But still!
When he's eating, I can take his food, handle him, pet him, you name it. I guess when he's " in the zone" and trying hard not to get caught he reacts with fury when he gets busted.
Poor dog, I wonder what he has been through in his short life?
Anyway, he is in trubbles right now, and chilling in his room. ( he ran up afterwards)
Its Meiko all over again.:frustrated: :shrug: :sad: He was the same way for a while.

Im so shocked though, the little bugger seriously was defending the garbage ( Or himself:shrug: )with all he is.

~michelle~
March 20th, 2007, 11:30 PM
oh sorry erykah :grouphug: you can make it through this.

erykah1310
March 20th, 2007, 11:36 PM
I just dont know how i should feel right now,
Im really mad actually, and sad at the same time.
I just dont know what step to take next with him.
I cant cuddle him ( which really is what I want to do even though I mad) cause I dont want him to think its alright to do that....

technodoll
March 20th, 2007, 11:39 PM
i would have bitten the little b*stard right back! :eek: :frustrated: next time it might not be you and there might be broken skin - damn, i wouldn't want to be in your place right now... what to do? :confused: :grouphug:

erykah1310
March 20th, 2007, 11:45 PM
Im at a loss too TD,
Kinda new water for me, I mean Meik was an @ss for a while too, but not really like this ( It was still so new the first time I wrote this out)

I honestly dont know what step to take next with him. :shrug:
By all means he's not going anywhere, but this definately MUST be worked on!

~michelle~
March 20th, 2007, 11:45 PM
on the bright side of things (always look for the silver lining) you found out with jut you and there was no injury. it could have been worse, but now you know you can work on this

rainbow
March 20th, 2007, 11:46 PM
Erykah, first of all hugs....:grouphug: I would just let him "chill" for tonight. Tomorrow treat him as you normally do and be "on guard" in case there's a next time so you can catch him beforehand. :)

erykah1310
March 20th, 2007, 11:48 PM
I so have to cancel him at the dog sitters now. She has a 10 month old human baby, we were going to introduce them a bit at a time, but now... I cant with a clear concience send him there.
Too many unknowns with him still.

technodoll
March 21st, 2007, 12:14 AM
hopefully things will be better tomorrow... and surely some training gurus will offer some good advice?.... :grouphug: :goodvibes:

TeriM
March 21st, 2007, 12:38 AM
I would just let him "chill" for tonight. Tomorrow treat him as you normally do and be "on guard" in case there's a next time so you can catch him beforehand. :)

I agree with Rainbow. Very scary ... big hugs :grouphug: to you, hopefully you just really startled him.

rainbow
March 21st, 2007, 01:13 AM
I so have to cancel him at the dog sitters now. She has a 10 month old human baby, we were going to introduce them a bit at a time, but now... I cant with a clear concience send him there.
Too many unknowns with him still.

Erykah, I would still introduce Bailey to the baby. I would explain the situation to the dog sitter. If you can handle him, pet him and take his food away while he's eating, I really don't think this is a major problem. Like Teri said, you probably startled him.

Prin
March 21st, 2007, 01:16 AM
Aww, :grouphug:...

It could be that he was caught in his past life and really bad things happened to him, so he thought he'd protect himself first... :shrug: :grouphug:

I'm no pro ;) but in your situation, I would probably have made the doggy lie on its side for a while... Just what I would do... Not saying it's what to do...:o :D

I hope it never happens again... :fingerscr

Spirit
March 21st, 2007, 02:38 AM
I'm no pro ;) but in your situation, I would probably have made the doggy lie on its side for a while... Just what I would do... Not saying it's what to do...

Prin's right (or on the right track, anyway).

Putting a dog on it's side can have it's disadvantages if used incorrectly, or on the wrong dog, but removal of the situation won't teach the dog a damn thing either, and COULD do more damage in the long run (especially if the dog doesn't know why he's in a "time out"). Personally, I've never seen a time out situation actually work (outside of fear).

Teaching your dog that this behavior is innapropriate is the best way to deal with it. Had this been me (and I can't advise as I don't know your dog), I too probably would have put the dog on it's side (assuming the dog was already in attack mode, and would not calm down by my calm-assertiveness), but the second the dog relaxes (or submits), I would let go. Showing anger is not my intention, but achieving a calm submissive state, is ALL I'm asking of him.

Challenging an aggressive dog with aggression isn't something I'd reccommend, but why your dog attacked in the first place needs to be concidered. It's likely that you just startled him and he just reacted, but the fact that he didn't stop when he saw you, tells me that he's unsure of his pack status. Which is quite common in dogs that have had unstable pasts. He saw a situation where he felt he had to defend himself, and he did.

Don't cancel the appt with the dog sitter, but first explain to her what happened, and make sure (without question) that she has the training and knowledge to know how to be a stable pack leader to this dog. Your baby has had some instability in his past (it seems) and so now, when the moment presents itself, if no one else is able to guide him (in his mind), then he has no other choice than to become the dominant one (as he did tonight).

I'm sorry this happened to you, but please don't be discouraged and try not to blame the dog. He's only acting on what he knows. Show him what it is that you want from him, and he'll quickly learn to respect you and move forward with you in your pack. :grouphug:

meb999
March 21st, 2007, 06:39 AM
awww, Erykah, I'm so sorry....

I also would have made him lie down on his side for awhile. Maybe you should start the NILIF (nothing in life is free) for alittle bit so he thoroughly understands his status in the pack?

coppperbelle
March 21st, 2007, 07:23 AM
It sounds like he went into a defense mode. Chloe did this with me once, bit my hand and broke the skin. It hurt so bad both physically and emotionally (I was sad). I had rescued her and gone through so much and then she turned around and bit me. :sad:

I don't know how long he has been with you but I think before you bring him to the sitters you must discuss the situation with her. Personally I wouldn't put either the baby or your dog into that situation right now.

Mahealani770
March 21st, 2007, 07:46 AM
Spirit - Awesome advice and information, but how in the world do you put an angry, aggressive, snarling dog on it's side? I don't know about anybody else and I don't care how little the dog is, when they snarl and growl, it's scary and the LAST thing I want to do is to touch him, much less grab him and try to put him on is side! lol How do you do this without getting hurt?

clm
March 21st, 2007, 07:56 AM
My first dog was a fear biter. We got him at 4 months old, but we were his second home, so I'm sure something bad had happened to him before we got him. Anyway, if you were foolish enough to try to touch him, to grab his collar or even just to give him a pat if he was doing something he knew he shouldn't be, like tearing apart the garbage, he would indeed bite and break skin. He only bit me once, but threatened too on many other occassions. After each encounter I would make him lie down and time out for a few minutes. I wasn't afraid of being bitten, which helps, you gotta let them know that it's wrong, and that you are the boss, but in a non aggressive manor. He had a lot more respect for me than my husband, he would growl at my husband if my husband raised his voice in anger towards me in the house....fortunately, we don't argue much and Michael was always a much bigger sap with that dog than me. Michael never raised his voice to the dog and loved him to pieces, but it was me who he would listen to.
We did not trust that dog around children and kept him well under control around them.

Even if it was just because you startled him, kids will do a whole lot more of that unintentionally. Be careful.

Cindy

Rottielover
March 21st, 2007, 08:17 AM
The alpha roll, or forced postioning can be very dangerous if done on the wrong dog.
I had a fear aggressive dog, it is not fun and very dangerous, but from the sounds of it, he was protecting a pricey item, the garbage. Some dogs do toys, or bones, or blankets. Whatever they feel is highly prized for them.
I would start working with NILF for him. Go back to the begining.
I am so sorry you have to go through this, it is not fun at all. Hope you are ok, and not too much bruising.
You are definetly correct for keeping him away from a young child, that could have been an accident waiting to happen.:goodvibes: things get better

erykah1310
March 21st, 2007, 10:54 AM
Im very unfamiliar with NILIF, I'm going to research it today. That and we're starting the "leave it" command as well.
He's being very weird today, I woke up, he stayed in his room ( he could have come out) then when he had to go outside, he walked down the stairs and just sat at the door.
I think Prin hit the nail on the head...It could be that he was caught in his past life and really bad things happened to him, so he thought he'd protect himself first... I mean he didnt even look at me first, he just came running. Totally shocked me, caught me off guard.
Im not comfortable with the submissive roll on such a small dog ( I think its a great way to show him, but I'm afraid to hurt him) By hurt him, I am not accustomed to handling smaller dogs. Not that I am forceful with mine by all means, but it does take a bit more strength to do something like that with them.
I'm going to try and find Meiks behaviourist, She was amazing...
I dont even know if she's still around.
Hope so:fingerscr

Mahealani770
March 21st, 2007, 11:08 AM
Erykah, I did the NILIF thing with Nicky back when he was guarding his chewies and he hasn't done it since. As a matter of fact, I can take it from him and play with it right in front of him now, and instead of growling or lunging after it, he just lays there..lol Nicky sits before he's allowed to do or get ANYTHING. I also hand fed him a few times (plunged my hand into his food bowl too) to show him that I'M in control of his food and treats. It seems to have worked as there is no more guarding or growling! Good luck!

P.S. Now if I can just get him to stop peeing inside!! :frustrated:

Frenchy
March 21st, 2007, 12:32 PM
Good advices Spirit. Same thing happened with the cocker we had when I was a kid, too spoiled by us, that's why it happened. but great dog.

Skryker
March 21st, 2007, 12:50 PM
Poor Erykah! And poor Bailey. :sad: It does really sound like he was treated very badly for getting into the garbage sometime in his past. Was he in a multiple dog household before? Maybe he was attacked by another dog over garbage once-hence the attack before he was even aware it was you.

NILF sounds like a way to go. Make sure he knows who is in charge and his place in the pack.

Good luck!:goodvibes:

Spirit
March 21st, 2007, 01:03 PM
when they snarl and growl, it's scary and the LAST thing I want to do is to touch him

And that's how they win. If a dog growls at you and you back off, they learn that this behavior gets them results. "Hey, if I don't want my master coming to take away my toy, I'd better growl. I should probably bark and snarl first too. And if that doesn't work, I'll just take a few steps towards them and show my teeth to warn them that I mean business." Would you let your kid do this to you? Not that you're kid would ever act like a dog, but you know what I mean. LOL!

The alpha roll, or forced postioning can be very dangerous if done on the wrong dog.

I know I already said this in my first reply, but I want to stress this a second time. The alph roll is a technique that should only be people who how to use it (on which dogs, etc), and when to apply it. Improper use can be dangerous indeed (in the long run).

chico2
March 21st, 2007, 01:11 PM
Erykah,"my"Bailey was going to bite my sons girlfriend last summer,she surprised her by jumping in front of her.
Bailey growled and was going to bite..
I was sooo surprised,although Bailey often growls at people passing us on our walk.
I can do anything with her,take stuff out of her mouth if needed.
I am not saying what your Bailey did is ok,but I hope you can work on him and not have to once again rehome him:sad:

Spirit
March 21st, 2007, 01:16 PM
Im very unfamiliar with NILIF, I'm going to research it today. That and we're starting the "leave it" command as well.
He's being very weird today, I woke up, he stayed in his room ( he could have come out) then when he had to go outside, he walked down the stairs and just sat at the door.


When this happened, did you get angry? It sounds like he might be fearful of last nights events. Picture it. The dog does something he thinks is right or best (or whatever... he's a dog and acted on instinct), then his pack peader (for NO obvious reason to the dog), gets mad and removes him from the pack. So now the dog tip toes around the pack leader, fearful that he (or she) may snap (unprovoked) again. The dog is now confused, and is being submissive to your body language. He doesn't understand what he did to make you mad, and because he's now aware that his leader is "unstable", it reinforces in his mind, that he should be take charge (because you didn't). I could be completely off here, but does this make sense?

I agree that the NILF program is something you should start to work on. There's the obedient dog (one who listens when you say sit, down, etc), and then there's the pack followers (who do what you need them to do, without you having to ask for it). One is a conditioned response, the other is respect.

I wish you the best. He sounds like a really great dog, in need of just a little tweaking. Discipline before affection, and no anger on your part (teach/show him a better way, and don't get mad), and things will be good! :thumbs up

Lissa
March 21st, 2007, 01:39 PM
I would never advise doing an alpha roll on any dog. I find it a very violent, physically aggressive act and a ridiculous way to "prove" leadership. I don't think there is ever a reason to use force.

I can't comment on this further until I read up on Bailey's history... But I pretty much agree with Rottielover. Start NILIF so you are in control of ALL resources and until you are better able to handle this, do not introduce him to the baby.

erykah1310
March 21st, 2007, 02:07 PM
When this happened, did you get angry? It sounds like he might be fearful of last nights events. Picture it. The dog does something he thinks is right or best (or whatever... he's a dog and acted on instinct), then his pack peader (for NO obvious reason to the dog), gets mad and removes him from the pack. So now the dog tip toes around the pack leader, fearful that he (or she) may snap (unprovoked) again. The dog is now confused, and is being submissive to your body language. He doesn't understand what he did to make you mad, and because he's now aware that his leader is "unstable", it reinforces in his mind, that he should be take charge (because you didn't). I could be completely off here, but does this make sense?



I did get mad, and I know that wasnt the appropriate action to take. This makes alot of sence.
I sent him to bed, cause I knew I was way too shocked and angry at the time.
He's better now, outside playing with the other dogs.
He came here with another Cocker, so yes he is accustomed to multi-dog households. Before that owner though?? I have no idea.


Origionally posted by Chico2
I am not saying what your Bailey did is ok,but I hope you can work on him and not have to once again rehome him
Rehoming him isnt an option or even a though that has crossed my mind. I can assure you of that, no matter what... he's still my little B and we now have a new "challenge" to work on. Like posted earlier, there is a silver lining to every cloud.
First it was his dog agression with Meik and Puppy, but thats over now ( still play time is a cautious time, he isnt "cured") he accepts them as members of his family ( or pack)
I wont give up on B, I will NOT be owner number 3 who did.

Spirit
March 21st, 2007, 02:20 PM
He came here with another Cocker, so yes he is accustomed to multi-dog households. Before that owner though?? I have no idea.

"Before that owner", doesn't make a lick of difference. For example... If you bring a dog into a home where there's other dogs, it doesn't matter if his previous owner allowed aggression. If you (as pack leader) don't allow this behavior to continue, your dog will quickly learn that you will not put up with his old habits, and will then learn a better way to coexist. How depends a lot of you (he might just stay away, or they might become best buddies). But if you don't allow aggression, he'll have no other choice than to find a different way of dealing.

You can't force two dogs to love each other, but you can remove hositility towards each other so they learn to live together (without aggression).

Prin
March 21st, 2007, 04:09 PM
Ok, I never said "alpha roll"... What I do with my doggies is put them on their side: I say "sit. lie down. dead." and they lie dead for a while until I release them. The worse the crime, the longer the punishment... If they need help getting onto their side, I help them, but it's not aggressive. It might be dominant because I'm asking them to do something not too comfy, but it's not an alpha roll. It's like a toned down, nice way of alpha rolling where you don't have to touch the dog at all to get the dog to do it after a while.:D

This is what it looks like :D :
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h213/Princi9009/Jemma%20and%20Boo%20MarAprMay%202007/IMG_7232.jpg

Lissa
March 22nd, 2007, 11:47 AM
It's like a toned down, nice way of alpha rolling where you don't have to touch the dog at all to get the dog to do it after a while.:D

Unfortunately, most people would not be able to get their dogs to do that without physical force.

I have an "on your side" command that looks like Boo's and since its a non physical command I could see using it as a "time out" in non-volatile situation. But I doubt that any aroused dog will lie on its side on command so the only way to accomplish that is by force and IMO that does more damage than good.

~michelle~
March 22nd, 2007, 02:11 PM
i would say NILF and maybe some frequent surprises????? when hes a little more comfy often make a loud surprising noise and treat him , this will teach him he doesnt need to be afraid of things or associate loud sudden noises wit being ok ??? (someone correct me if i am wrong, i was just thinking of classic conditioning, but if this would be dumb by all means let me know ive never had to deal with this).
if he lunges at you stand your ground, show him his aggrssion will achieve nothing and give him some sort of command (ie sit or laydown) to show you are still in charge.

Prin
March 22nd, 2007, 02:26 PM
You're right, Lissa, it takes practice to get the doggy to go on its side no matter what's going on. I never do it in front of other dogs though... Never! It puts them in a submissive position to me, but it shouldn't make him sumbit to everybody around.

Spirit
March 22nd, 2007, 02:29 PM
It's the "calm-dominance" that will get you the result you want. Standing your ground without showing aggression or fear. And when your dog backs off, telling him to sit or lay down. Yelling "SIT!" while your dog is still in attack mode, won't mean anything to your dog - all he would hear is you "barking" back, and might intensify the fight. Yelling = aggression or intimidation. Once your dog's energy level has lowered, and he goes into a down position (after you calmly ask him to) praise here will also confuse your dog. If you watch a confrontation between wolves (pack leader vs follower), there is no "cuddling" afterwards. The dominant one (pack leader) will get his point across (you WILL be calm-submissive towards me, or get kicked out of my pack), then simply just wander off. So the best method is once your dog is calm-submissive, you can then just walk away.