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Jumping up. Part 2.

lt_danish
March 14th, 2007, 08:28 PM
I posted a question about my pup jumping up about a month ago.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=36905

So things have been progressing forward as I would like them to since that time. We have been practicing at home before we go out around other people and I have asked a few other people at the park to help. The method that has been working is simply turning around, back to the dog, when she starts to jump. She gets no attention, to treat etc, and thus has been loosing interest in jumping up. There are some people she still likes to jump on, I am not sure how she chooses who to jump on. Maybe they smell like dogs or treats or somthing?

Here is my newest issue. Another friend of mine who often comes over seems to be an 'expert' in how to train 'pitbulls'. *laugh* (I would hardly say having one sort of trained dog qualifies one as expert). When her dog was in obedience classes the trainer taught the knee to the head/chest method to prevent jumping. My dog gets happy to see this friend of mine, and some others as well that come over as a group. They have taken to the knee method. I told them last night I was going to kick them out of my house if they continued to do this to my dog, as I find it to be a little to dangerous and dominant.

Any suggestions on how I can 'sell' the method I have been using as the method that is 'better' to some stubbord people? I don't know if it would be useful to note that my friends dog is also a TOTALLY different temperment to my dog. Their dog is dog agressive and sometimes people agressive as a previous roommate had beat the dog while my friend was at work. She has taken the dog to a few different classes/trainers to solve that dogs individual issues, but since mine is a pup and doesn't have those issues I just don't think those methods are nessessary.

jessi76
March 14th, 2007, 08:56 PM
Frankly I don't think those methods are necessary on ANY dog. Kneeing a dog is harmful, harmful to the dog, and to your relationship with the dog. the dog learns that greeting you results in pain and fear. the dog does not learn HOW to greet properly.

If anyone ever suggested such a thing to me, or had a nerve to try it in my home with MY dog, oh dear god, let's just say that person wouldn't have use of his/her knees for quite some time.

sorry, but I fiercely protect my own.

this friend's dog is aggressive and even people agressive... has been beaten and kneed in the chest... my heart goes out to the poor dog.

Please continue with your own positive methods, obviously it's working. and when this friend visits your home, be firm that she respect your rules and treat your dog with kindness, or show her the door. (JMO)

~michelle~
March 14th, 2007, 09:02 PM
i used to put my knee up to stop logan but not knee him in the chest my knee was just there before he jumped up so he wouldnt claw my face/chest....i used it to put distance and then turned my back and no attention. this didnt cause him any pain just didnt let him make a landing on me, or my chest, and he started to land on my upper leg i would put it down and say off, it worked well for me if i just turned my back he would jump on my back causing a potnetially dangerous situation, and alot of pain for me. but we got logan when he was 8 mos and insane, i had sooo many scratches on my chest, face, arms, and stomach from him jumping up
my dad kneed logan before and he got a yellin!

Spirit
March 14th, 2007, 10:45 PM
Bringing your knee up is to prevent the dog from making contact with you, and is not intended to actually "knee your dog in it's chest" (which of course can hurt your dog). If done correctly, it's no different than using your forearm to prevent a dog from licking your face. You're simply blocking your face (chest) with your arm (leg) so the dog does not accomplish his goal of licking your face (or putting his paws on your chest). You raise your leg (with bent knee), and since the dog can't jump up on your knee, he backs off. There should be little to NO contact with your knee to the dogs chest.

Turning your back will work well with puppies as they'll eventually get confused and give up to sit, but if a dog is big enough, it can still knock you over when it makes contact (I've seen it happen several times), not to mention it'll leave muddy paw prints on the back of your shirt if a dog does this to you outside. So raising the knee works better than turning your back on the larger, stronger breeds, but the idea is to prevent contact... not knee him in the chest!!

Prin
March 14th, 2007, 10:52 PM
I don't agree with kneeing either... What I do is spread my fingers and put my hand between the dog and me, so as he jumps up, he hits my hand (I say no as he hits my hand too, just to make it extra clear). Usually they stop after one failed attempt. :shrug: But turning works just as well.

IMO, if they want to knee your dog, they should let you knee them back. :shrug: :evil: No matter how you do it, there's always a greater chance of injury (knee moving toward dog + dog moving toward knee = disaster waiting to happen) and there's just no point when other less invasive ways work better. :shrug:

There are some people she still likes to jump on, I am not sure how she chooses who to jump on. Maybe they smell like dogs or treats or somthing?They're submissive people. Dogs can pick them out so easily by their body language and posture.:shrug:

Spirit
March 14th, 2007, 11:02 PM
What I do is spread my fingers and put my hand between the dog and me, so as he jumps up, he hits my hand (I say no as he hits my hand too, just to make it extra clear).

"The Claw", a la Cesar Milan. LOL!! I do this too. Works real well.

Since I walk dogs though with some of the local trainers, your hands are not always available... and when you've got a pack of 10-15 dogs (and most of them are offleash), turning your back isn't easy either if one of the new dogs tries to jump up (the rest of the pack knows the rules, but occasionally you'll get a new one who the owners pawn off on you to train... hate that)... so in situations like that, raising the knee is the easiest way to get your point across that jumping will not be tollerated. But again, you never make knee to chest contact... it's merely to block the jump (can't stress that enough).

Prin
March 14th, 2007, 11:12 PM
Uhh.. That made me cringe a little bit... My hand is totally flat, no "claws" to potentially poke anybody's eyes out and I don't move it either....

Spirit
March 14th, 2007, 11:16 PM
Same idea as the knee. ;)

(Edit:... Come to think of it, that sounds pretty bad in text. lol! Never mind then.)

Prin
March 14th, 2007, 11:18 PM
Not really because I don't strike the dog. ;)

Spirit
March 14th, 2007, 11:19 PM
Not really because I don't strike the dog. ;)

Neither do I. ;)

Prin
March 14th, 2007, 11:20 PM
And the palm of a hand, flat but not firm is a lot less brutal than hitting a knee, right?

Spirit
March 14th, 2007, 11:24 PM
You're not supposed to hit with the knee. You're supposed to block with the side of your thigh.

You trying to pick a fight with me, Prinny? The moons ain't lining up! lol (I'm kidding... it's all good.) :grouphug:

Prin
March 14th, 2007, 11:27 PM
lol no, I'm just trying to explain how I do it, because I know the knee, and I find it brutal. :shrug: If the dog hits your knee (out of enthusiasm or whatever), it's not very comfortable. If a dog hits my hand, my hand moves and absorbs the dog, but it still provides this sense of boundaries and control. :shrug: You should try it one day.;) It works even when you have dozens of dogs around you and you're less likely to topple over than if you raise one leg off the ground.

Spirit
March 14th, 2007, 11:37 PM
You should try it one day.;) It works even when you have dozens of dogs around you and you're less likely to topple over than if you raise one leg off the ground.

I have tried it. Many, MANY times. That is until I started working (and walking) with trainers, when my hands weren't always available. There are many gentle ways to stop a dog from jumping, and using my hands isn't always my way of choice when the dogs are covered in sand/water/mud, (even though I still do once and a while). An arm, thigh, back, ignoring, leash pops, sit/wait training... I'm sure there'll be many other suggestions made here by other members, but I've said my $0.02 and this isn't a chat room, so I'll leave my change on the table and let someone else reply. :thumbs up

Prin
March 14th, 2007, 11:43 PM
The problem is, the OP doesn't want to do the knee, which is why I offered an alternative, just in case. :shrug: Seems to work for me whenever (and when I was working with dogs back in the day).:shrug:

marko
March 15th, 2007, 10:37 AM
There will be a podcast (#13) about jumping that will be posted later today if anyone is interested. The podcast will be an interview with Doug Simpson of tenderfoot training. AMAZING info - and some very cool tips/tricks.

The main page to see the podcasts is here.
http://www.pets.ca/blog/

Thanks!

Lukka'sma
March 15th, 2007, 12:09 PM
I had a dog behaviorist/trainer come over a few months ago and he charged me big $$$$ to tell me his way of teaching no jumping. I'm not saying that it is the right way or the wrong way. I still haven't tried it though.
He said to take your dog on leash, step on the leash so your dog stands comfortably facing you and entice your dog to jump up on you. The correction will come immediately when the dog tries to jump up and its front paws wont come off the ground. At that point he said to also give a verbal No. Repeat a few times each day and he said your dog will soon realize that jumping up is a set up for failure. Don't know if any will agree with this or not but just thought I would put it out there.

Spirit
March 15th, 2007, 01:22 PM
I probably should've said what I did with my dog in my first reply.

When I trained my dog to not jump up on me, I used the "lure with a treat or toy" method, then turn my back when he jumped. I did this many many times, all throughout the day. At treat time, during playtime, etc. He learned to sit for a reward (toy or treat), but coming home or dealing with guests was a different story. When I'd come home I'd ignore him completely if he tried to jump (turning around and moving away, pretending as if he wasnt' there), and reward him like mad on the times I could see him about to jump then change his mind and sit excitedly. I now have a dog (when he's excited) that will run to me at full speed, and slide into a sit. Most of the time when I come home he's completely calm, but the other times he'll wigglebum around my legs, and tell me all the stories about his day (golden style - he's a talker), but his paws won't leave the floor. It took about 3 days for my puppy to stop jumping on me PERIOD. He never did it again.

The leash method (as mentioned above) was used when he greets others, as not everyone has the time or knowledge on how to prevent jumping successfully. Then there's the odd person who LIKES the jumping, and tries to encourage it (a couple customers at my work do this, and I can't STAND it). The rules are always different when it's not your own dog, eh? lol :mad:

Prin
March 15th, 2007, 01:25 PM
The leash method (as mentioned above) was used when he greets others, as not everyone has the time or knowledge on how to prevent jumping successfully. I agree! YEY!!! :laughing:

I wouldn't really use it as a main training tool (the leash method) because it's too controlled. Of course when your dog has the leash on and it's under your foot and you start to tease him, he won't jump anymore. But what about when he's not on a leash and you aren't ready for it? ;) :shrug: When guests come, that's ideal because the chaos of their arrival is enough stimulation to get him to forget all his prior training...

~michelle~
March 15th, 2007, 02:16 PM
the hand thing sounds like a good idea .... i think you have to find what works for you and the dog without providing pain or discomfort and being as safe as possible to both you and the dog. i think "the knee" is something that was initally used as a method to prevent the dog from alanding on you or causing pain but some hard ass methods of training turned it in to knee your dog in the chest. so not cool...
but yeah i think that if someone is doing any method you dont agree with to your dog it should be stopped... you wouldnt let someone else spank your child if you didnt agree with it, so why let them use methods on your dog you dont agree with. also its dangerous for the person, they are not part of the pack and are causing them pain, this could lead dogs in to being very very aggitated, i know Logan would probably not tolerate any harsh treatment from a stranger especially inside our home, he might feel as if the person was a theat. i would ask the person to stop their behaviour immediately or stop coming to the house

lt_danish
March 17th, 2007, 09:57 PM
Oh. The leash method may work for those situations when people com over or with strangers. Since this is the current problem area. I could easily put her collar and leash on if people are coming to the door. Thanks!