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Time for some Quebec politics!

Prin
March 7th, 2007, 01:17 PM
hehe, since the election is sooooo unheated this time around here in Qc, I thought we could talk about it nicely. :D

It's a three way race between the Liberals (federalists), the PQ (separatists) and the ADQ (autonomists :laughing: ).

Does anybody feel strongly about anything? :D Here's my take on it:

Jean Charest: ok, so Englishers are used to voting liberal... He didn't do much in 4 years though... He maybe paid some Drs more to go work in the middle of nowhere, but that's about it. Oh and he promised to finish the 30 and the 25 but they all do that.

André Boisclair: hmm... consultation populaire, eh? He thinks it's fine (to not call a spade a spade or a referendum a referendum), but he's nose-diving in the polls. People just want you to be clear on where you stand, and you aren't clear about anything. You're gay but you're not proud of it in public, you're a recovering drug addict, but you want to pretend that didn't happen either, and you're a separatist, but you don't want to say that too loud because you don't want to scare off the Englishers and immigrants. Ok. So you're nobody then. At least nobody anybody can identify with. Moving on.

Mario Dumont: well. Autonomist, eh? Working for a stronger Quebec within Canada. Ok, well, now that you've stated the Bloc Quebecois' slogan, what's yours? My favorite was when the school boards called him on saying "only 25% of the school tax money goes to schools and the rest goes to administration". They replied that only 5% goes to administration and the rest goes to the schools and Dumont replied that he was "speaking metaphorically". :rolleyes:

Anyway, it's a three way race, but I wonder what the Green party is up to (I really hate their posters... "Je vote". Well yeah. :rolleyes: ) And I wonder what Quebec Solidaire is about (probably socialism, right?).

So anybody feel strongly? :laughing:

Rick C
March 7th, 2007, 02:19 PM
It's interesting how the popularity of separation has been gradually dying away . . . . . almost in lock step with a population gradually getting grayer and probably more pragmatic.

I see a Quebec radio personality was just suspended for homophobic comments about Boisclair and his party.

In Alberta, the only other time Quebec shows up on the radar is when the province continues with its annual claim that its a "have-not" and needs equalization payments. Frankly, you would think such a claim would be embarrassing for Quebecers, clearly a well-off province, but apparently not.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Prin
March 7th, 2007, 02:23 PM
lol I don't know about well off... Our economy is in a total slump, with more companies laying off and leaving than companies moving in and hiring... Our unemployment is only lower than it seems because after a certain amount of time, we fall off the radar if we still haven't found a job. :rolleyes:

As for separation, it's interesting to note that the demographic of the biggest supporters of the PQ is actually shifting to the 18-24 year old age group. Luckily they usually don't vote. :laughing:

Rick C
March 7th, 2007, 02:38 PM
lol I don't know about well off... Our economy is in a total slump, with more companies laying off and leaving than companies moving in and hiring... Our unemployment is only lower than it seems because after a certain amount of time, we fall off the radar if we still haven't found a job. :rolleyes:

:

Well, not just now but for decades and under numerous forms of government with numerous political philosophies.. . . . . . I'll tell you right now that Albertans just don't get how Quebec gets away with a claim to be a have-not province. The only thing we can think of is that its some kind of bribe to shut-up about seaparation, otherwise, as I said, you'd think taking the welfare cheque under such blatantly false pretences would be embarrassing.

I don't mean that in a particularly mean-spirited fashion but that is exactly how the common Albertan feels about it. "Where's your pride?" is the question the common Albertan would direct at the common Quebecer on this particular matter.

Sorry, that's a sidebar threadjacking of the topic.

As for separation, it's interesting to note that the demographic of the biggest supporters of the PQ is actually shifting to the 18-24 year old age group. Luckily they usually don't vote. :laughing

And that fits in with my point . . . . . as the boomer generation came of age in the 1960's, separation gained momentum. Now that the boomer generation is getting older - 1961 is the most common birth year in Canada I believe - the trend seems to be towards less interest in such a radical idea.

The Protest Generation are concentrating on their grandkids.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Prin
March 7th, 2007, 02:48 PM
I'll tell you right now that Albertans just don't get how Quebec gets away with a claim to be a have-not province. And I challenge any Albertan to come to Quebec and find a job. ;) I think about half of the umemployeds I know have gone to Edmonton already.

"Where's your pride?" Well, when you can't afford to feed your family anymore because minimum wage doesn't give you enough to pay your rent, pride isn't so important anymore. :shrug: Most of my friends' rent is over $800 a month for tiny places, and that's a month of minimum wage right there. :shrug:

It is a sidebar, but at the same time, IMO, the economy is an important issue for this election. And the PQ is not going to get us jobs when they make everything even more unstable.:shrug:

Rick C
March 7th, 2007, 03:17 PM
And I challenge any Albertan to come to Quebec and find a job. I think about half of the umemployeds I know have gone to Edmonton already.

You'll note I said "decades" above . . . . . each of us could pick any point that might be favourable but that wouldn't address the central issue . . . . Quebec, through that lengthy period of time, is certainly not a have-not province.

And, if you want, we could certainly ask the "average Ontarian" their opinion on that and likely come up with the same consensus as the average Albertan.

Albertan's, by the way, don't actually object much to the theory of equalization payments, particularly to the Maritimes . . . . . they just see a big fraud case when it comes to Quebec. It's a joke really.

Well, when you can't afford to feed your family anymore because minimum wage doesn't give you enough to pay your rent, pride isn't so important anymore. Most of my friends' rent is over $800 a month for tiny places, and that's a month of minimum wage right there.

If Quebec would lower taxes and make itself more competitive to business, it might be in a better position to provide those people with opportunities.

The problems Quebec has are generally self-inflicted but you're more likely talking about the non-competitive that we see in any society . . . . and I say that knowing I'll be doling out breakfast to the homeless in Calgary at the Drop-In Centre in early April. There will be several hundred in the lineup if my last experience there is any indication.

Anyhoo . . . . this is becoming a thread hijack. My apologies.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Prin
March 7th, 2007, 03:28 PM
Albertan's, by the way, don't actually object much to the theory of equalization payments, particularly to the Maritimes . . . . . hehe, we'll ask the maritimers how they feel about that. :laughing: If Rick Mercer is any indication, the Maritimes don't really feel like Alberta treats them fairly... Don't get me started on Newf oil... :D

If Quebec would lower taxes and make itself more competitive to business, it might be in a better position to provide those people with opportunities.Yep. And that's where it becomes an election issue. IMO, they'd have to have a plan longer than 4 years if they want to attract business. No huge company wants to come here and settle in only to get saddled with who knows what when Quebec finally separates. Ontario is a far safer choice and they have the man-power too. :shrug:

There are two demographics here in Quebec: the specialists who make the big bucks and the retail workers making minimum wage. There's no in between (other than a couple call centers) and that's where most of the population would fall, if they are given the chance. Where's the NDP of Quebec provincial politics? That's who we'd need here, IMO. Somebody to fight for the middle people. Sure, they do it badly and extravagantly, but hey, don't they all do that? :D

Stacer
March 7th, 2007, 03:51 PM
Why is there no NDP in Quebec? I don't know anything about Quebec politics other than eveytime an election is called the word "referendum" is thrown around and then I hope that the Liberals get in so Quebec won't leave. You need NDP, or another 3rd party that has a chance to compete.

Prin
March 7th, 2007, 04:06 PM
No, there's no provincial NDP. There's the ADQ, which is the Action Democratique du Quebec, but they just don't have the concrete platform that the NDP has, you know?

CyberKitten
March 8th, 2007, 02:31 PM
The ADQ is the spolier or the if they have enuf seats, they could hold the balance of power but I think Jean Charest should win easily enough. So I guess they qualify as the "3rd" party in Quebec since it is highly unlikely they will ever form the govt - they were started by a former pres of the Young Liberals who thought his own party was not nationalist enough. (Prob when Daniel Johnson was Premier).

There has never been an NDP in in Quebec and except for the separatism issue - which the NDP never seems to quite "get" - even if Jack Layton grew up in Hudson - many of the PQ policies are not all that different from the NDP, at least amg the social democratic section of that party. Rene Levesque certainly came from that section although certainly that could not be said of Jacques Parizeau. There has alays been that tension in the party between those who lean to social democracy and those who are more conservative - the descendants of the unltramontistes iof you will - and Duplessis et al.

As long as Jean (remember when that Bloc MP called him "John" in the 1997 federal election - she was a well never mind, lol - Charest does make any more mistakes (like the reference to partition one) - he should be OK. Boisclair will only win if his opponents make erorrs - to paraphrase Le Devoir. (What is that joke about you can ID Quebecers by what they read - the intellectuals read Le Devoir, the separatists read La Presse and everyone else reads Allo Police - I forget how that goes).

Anyway - I think Jean Charest called the election now for a reason!! I actually bet on this election - and I rarely d that. It is just that I once made a mint when I predicted - alone amg many male politicians and I was just a kid, lol - that a certain party wold win in November of 1976. I can even remember where I was that night. (Everyone else was listening to that lecture by Louis Rioux that seperatism is dead, hah - they were not too correct - at least at that point. The party had 7 seats and made huge gains you might say in 1976, lol

The PQ should have elected Pauline Marois - she may have given Jean C a run for his money.Maybe!!! Then again, with Quenev politics, one never knows, lol

Puppyluv
March 8th, 2007, 03:56 PM
As an Albertan transplanted to Quebec, I have some things to say. It is so very easy to sit in Alberta, 4 provinces away and critique Quebec, and its citizens for that matter for their lack of effort, pride, what ever have you. When I lived in Calgary, I found it ridiculous that a province so large, with so many resources could litterally take our money without showing any shame. I found the notion of seperation to be selfish, and I heve had the gaul to complain about Alberta's healthcare, as well as the lack of funding in the schools.
Time passes and I find myself living in Quebec, technicaly a citizen of Quebec, and certainly a voter and tax-payer of Quebec. After a mere 4 years here, my views have changed dramatically. I would never criticize the way AB healthcareis run now.It may not be perfect but it runs Quebec's into the ground.The financial infrastructure here is weak, and you see it. The number of homeless people here far outnumber those in Alberta; Quebec does not have the social programs that they have in Alberta to get them back on their feet. There are no jobs here for them. Heck, there re no jobs out there for way to many people. I would not critique the school suystem in Alberta either.When I speak to my Quebec friends, they can't fathom how many people go to public schools in Alberta,the public school board there is better than the one here timeand time again. I am still agasint seperatism, but it scares me now. It used to be this "silly notion" that these people in ruralQuebec have, but now it's something I see all the time. I walk by pro-seperatist signs all the time. I live in Gilles Duceppe's riding, I am represented both provincially and nationally by a seperatist. It is scary to know that the voice speaking for you has completely different views from you.
Quebec is a large province with many resources, and yes,maybe there is some waste, but there is waste everywhere.This province is sofar from a "Have" province, it's not even funny. This province needs as much money as it can get. Yes, we are in debt and we are running a defecit, but right now, I can't see a way to stop that. This province needs so much help right now, and the spending can't stop until the problems are fixed.

Oh and Rick, don't generalize so much. Not every Albertan thinks the same way you do. I am a liberal Albertan, that's right, we do exist!

Puppyluv
March 8th, 2007, 04:04 PM
Oh yeah, and it skeeves me out what Mario Dumont wants to do to the schoolboards. Can you say bad idea?

Prin
March 8th, 2007, 05:16 PM
Great post Puppyluv! It's so great to have a different perspective. :)

Dracko
March 8th, 2007, 08:21 PM
Man, everyone from AB is moving back to Saskatchewan. Our housing prices have skyrocketed!!! For the first time I know of we are having "bidding wars" on homes and dates set for "offers to be in." Realtors say its the people who moved to AB in years past moving back and they have the $ to buy.

I don't have a view on politics in Quebec since I live in the prairies but I will say that I hope the Liberals continue their decline in the next Federal election.

TeriM
March 8th, 2007, 08:24 PM
Not me :D . I'm hoping for a liberal come-back :o .

Dracko
March 8th, 2007, 08:26 PM
Well, I think we need to recover from all the mis-spending first. Somehow recoup the millions - or is it billions - spent on the every popular and effecitve Gun Control system.:evil:

Puppyluv
March 8th, 2007, 08:26 PM
Not me :D . I'm hoping for a liberal come-back :o .

Me too!:D :thumbs up :o

Prin
March 8th, 2007, 08:33 PM
With Dion at the top? Not sure that's going to happen... Have you ever seen him walk his husky? (It says a lot... :D)

TeriM
March 8th, 2007, 08:34 PM
Well, I think we need to recover from all the mis-spending first. Somehow recoup the millions - or is it billions - spent on the every popular and effecitve Gun Control system.:evil:

Every government mis-spends. It is a fact of government life :frustrated: . I actually think that the gun-registry was a good concept that got totally screwed up in it's execution. I am glad that the liberals got booted for a short time (they did need their butts kicked) but am happy that the tories are only working as a minority government and I will support the liberals in their return :fingerscr to control. I also do hope that whoever wins there is a strong opposition party as I think the main reason for corruption is when the governing party has to darn much power.

Sorry for the thread-jack to federal politics Prin :o .

Prin
March 8th, 2007, 08:40 PM
lol No worries, TeriM... As I said in my first post, this is the most unheated election so far... Makes for a dying thread without the threadjacking. :D

Oh, I forgot to respond to the NDP thing though... Right now it's bad that for federalists if the PQ gets in because they're more devoted to separatism and another referendum these days, but when Lucien Bouchard and Bernard Landry were on top, I have to say, they didn't do a terrible job. I mean, not much changed (other than doctors leaving and road infrastructure crumbling and the usual). They're still a very leftist party, so it's not the worst thing, as long as referendums aren't on the docket (which they are this time around).

Anyway, so far my local liberal candidate has promised the most stuff that we really need, so for me, unless the other candidates wow me, which I doubt, I'm probably going to trust her. She's an urban planner, while the other two are a political scientist (PhD in political science = politician ALL the way!) and a fairly recent CEGEP graduate (aka probably younger than me). :shrug:

coppperbelle
March 8th, 2007, 08:43 PM
Oh yeah, and it skeeves me out what Mario Dumont wants to do to the schoolboards. Can you say bad idea?

Actually that is the only reason I would vote for the man. :D

Puppyluv
March 8th, 2007, 08:56 PM
I don't know, I just can't see an abolishment of school boards working. Leave the maintenance of the schools in the hands of local workers? They'll have no obligation to deal with the schools quickly, especially if private clients will pay more to have their jobs get done sooner. Schools will be ignored when it comes to maintenance.The English schools WILL suffer, despite what he says. No where else has had such a problem with school boards, I don't see a good reason to dissolve them here. Yeah, he's right, no one votes in their elections, but no one does anywhere. I just think that schools need school boards. They need uniformity and they need a body behind them for support.

Prin
March 8th, 2007, 08:57 PM
I agree. The English schools only have strength in numbers.

CyberKitten
March 8th, 2007, 09:35 PM
Mario stole the education idea from New Brunswick where the abolishment of school boards has been an unmitigated disaster!! It means no one is watching the govt!!!! They can and do what they want - and principals and not a democratically elected Boad of people who know the lo cal area - some who may have political aspirations of their own in terms for their education career, not the world of "real" Politics - have a lot of power.

I fought with every breath I had against the abolition of boards but the then Liberal govt has a majority and could do what they wanted. It was such a crime - It still bothers me, to be honest!! NB is the only jurisdiction in North America - other than Hawaii - that has no elected school boards. There are parent committees but that is not the same thing at all. I honestly think before ppl start to examine the issue, they should serve on a school Board, look and see what is going on in schools and realize that it takes an entire community to be involved n the education of a child. (The :it takes a village" syndrome I suppose).

Sure, there were some trustees who were not so hot but that is the same in every aspect of society. I would hasten to point out that in NB, trustees served without renumeration so that is not what upset them - it was the horrible way the Liberals did it. They waited until after the election and then voila, sprung it on parents, trustees and teachers. I am not sure school board trustees should be paid - as was the situation ij NB - and if they want to save money - (because this is what was cited as an excuse in NB - what about the quality of education?????) - having trustees who are not paid renumeration and serve as volunteers might be the preferred option. Or, irt would be.

Mario has not chance in winning tho so I would not worry , unless by some fluke he happens to end up holding the balance of power.

Prin, I think when she met a Liberal come back, she may have meant provincially tho Jean Charest is in power there now so maybe not. But I agree on the federal scene - today, one of the Charlottetown MP's resigned, citing his reason as M. Dion. I have to admit I rather liked M. Dion but am disappointed ion his performance so far. A friend of mine who is also a former member of the legislature 9I too made that mistake once, lol but I say I was young and foolish) calls the parliamentary aspect of politics the "beauty pageant aspect" and she has a valid point. Question Period - esp since TV's have become part of the game- is nothing but entertainment now. Of course, the same is true for CSPAN for political junkies in the US.

I do not vote Liberal - or never have - but in Quebec, I just might if only for the separatist reason. I do not like the idea of separation and love the notion of Canada. That said, I think the PQ as a govt in its early days did some good things - esp in education and health care and particularly in the area of cleaning up politics tho the Political Process Financing Act of N B is probably a little better. One could argue they had to - following that financial scandal of Bourassa - but it was hard to dislike René Levesque, even if you disagreed with him on the nationalist issue, as I did and do. My sister - in 1976 - was at Bishops's University and campaigned for a Liberal Jewish candidate who had somewhat of a chance in that time and place (more Anglos in the Townships then than now) - saw the PQ as akin to the Nazis but I never did. (except for the ultramontists in the group and they are the minority thankfully).

I can't compare Alberta's medical system tho I know Gary Marr who wrote an intro to a book I edited on health care for a former Health Minister - and he seemed to think Alberta's system could learn some things from Quebec and vice versa. He is probably right. He was much more impressed with ours in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick though and we invited him to move any time, lol He loves his Alberta though - and I think in some ways there is much in common with the maritimes and Alberta and BC. We are both on the fringes of the country and while the Maritimers have been here for awhile, many of the people in Alberta have moved there from somewhere else (so Albertan politicians and medical ppl have told me) and there is the newness of thought and willingness to do different things - like the Reform Party and the triple E Senate. It is kind of pioneer spirit that you have to admire.

However, political junkie that I am, I can't wait for March 25, lol And I am hoping for a Jean Charest win. I still recall that speech he gave at THE rally for Canada when he took out his passport. That was one of his best speeches EVER!!! And he is the only politician my mom would have her picture taken with - and she hates having her picture taken with pols tho sometimes it happens just because she is in the wrong place at the wrong time, lol (and we use those to tease her, lol) At the time, she was in this prolonged discussion with M. Charest in northern NB and I asked a friend of mine who is a photographer - when he is not doing web design et al - and is also the son of a former prominent Tory MP to take the picture, lol (Granted, I am not into that either but she likes Jean Charest - as for their conversation they were discussing of all things capital gains tax and then the English CBC network like Tim Belfour in Quebec City and his loss to Kim Campbell - my mom voted for Jean of course!)

Rick C
March 9th, 2007, 11:40 AM
As an Albertan transplanted to Quebec, I have some things to say. It is so very easy to sit in Alberta, 4 provinces away and critique Quebec, and its citizens for that matter for their lack of effort, pride, what ever have you. When I lived in Calgary, I found it ridiculous that a province so large, with so many resources could litterally take our money without showing any shame. I found the notion of seperation to be selfish, and I heve had the gaul to complain about Alberta's healthcare, as well as the lack of funding in the schools.
Time passes and I find myself living in Quebec, technicaly a citizen of Quebec, and certainly a voter and tax-payer of Quebec. After a mere 4 years here, my views have changed dramatically. I would never criticize the way AB healthcareis run now.It may not be perfect but it runs Quebec's into the ground.The financial infrastructure here is weak, and you see it. The number of homeless people here far outnumber those in Alberta; Quebec does not have the social programs that they have in Alberta to get them back on their feet. There are no jobs here for them. Heck, there re no jobs out there for way to many people. I would not critique the school suystem in Alberta either.When I speak to my Quebec friends, they can't fathom how many people go to public schools in Alberta,the public school board there is better than the one here timeand time again. I am still agasint seperatism, but it scares me now. It used to be this "silly notion" that these people in ruralQuebec have, but now it's something I see all the time. I walk by pro-seperatist signs all the time. I live in Gilles Duceppe's riding, I am represented both provincially and nationally by a seperatist. It is scary to know that the voice speaking for you has completely different views from you.
Quebec is a large province with many resources, and yes,maybe there is some waste, but there is waste everywhere.This province is sofar from a "Have" province, it's not even funny. This province needs as much money as it can get. Yes, we are in debt and we are running a defecit, but right now, I can't see a way to stop that. This province needs so much help right now, and the spending can't stop until the problems are fixed.

Oh and Rick, don't generalize so much. Not every Albertan thinks the same way you do. I am a liberal Albertan, that's right, we do exist!

In the highly unlikely event that Quebec isn't a "have" province at this moment in time, then its very new status as a "have not" will have been largely self-inflicted through socialist, non-competitive policies.

All you've done is described a badly run province, not one without the resources or talent to be at the top of the heap . . . . . and it certainly has been at the top of the heap in the past.

A fair look at Quebec . . . . a lot of these issues wherre Quebec is lagging appear related to culture and public policy rather than resources or opportunity:

http://www.innovationstrategy.gc.ca/gol/innovation/site.nsf/en/in02450.html

Interprovincial comparisons. Knock yourself out:

http://www.stat.gouv.qc.ca/donstat/econm_finnc/conjn_econm/TSC/index_an.htm

Sidebar, having not much to do with the topic, a survey of Calgarian attitudes in the Calgary Herald today:

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/index.html

We all have "pride of place" so our backs get up whenever anyone appears to sneer at us from afar.

If we moved beyond that, we'd see Quebec needs a more right wing government that would bring forth public policies that would allow Quebec to appear to be more competitive with other jurisdictions surrounding it.

As an example, there shouldn't be much of a difference at all in the performance of Quebec versus Ontario or the lot of an average citizen in each of those jurisdictions.

EDIT: by coincidence, some economic numbers today:

Unemployment:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070309.wjobscityprov0309/BNStory/Front

Statscan labour force survey today:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Subjects/Labour/LFS/lfs-en.htm

The story:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070309.wjobs0309/BNStory/Business/home

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 11:58 AM
Rick, your first link says it all:

It is the most manufacturing-intensive province in Canada, with the manufacturing sector representing 23 percent of Quebec's gross domestic product (GDP) in 2000But where is manufacturing going? China and Mexico. Everybody is leaving.

The global economic slowdown affected Quebec's economy in 2001, with reduced U.S. demand severely hitting merchandise exports (largely textile, clothing, forest products, and electronic and telecommunications equipment). However, the most recent employment and industrial activity data point to improving economic conditions and prospects.
Says who? Most of the textile factories in recent years have completely shut down, leaving entire towns jobless.

Quebec's GDP per capita, a measure of standard of living, amounted to $30 290 in 2000, ranking fifth among provinces and 12 percent below the Canadian average.Hmm... Can you live off $30 000 a year, Rick?

The manufacturing sector accounted for almost 60 percent of private R&D spending in Quebec in 1999, compared with 36 percent for the service sector. The largest industry players were the aircraft and parts industry (21 percent of total private R&D spending), engineering and scientific services (16 percent), and pharmaceutical and medicine (9 percent).Well, we all know what happened to Bombardier in recent years, don't we? :rolleyes: And the pharma industry is tanking here too, laying off employees in droves.

Oh, look! From the second stats canada link:
Manufacturing employment fell in February following six months of little change. February's losses were primarily in Quebec.

And back to the first link:

Between 1996 and 2001, Quebec's population increased by 1.9 percent, compared with 4.8 percent for the Canadian population as a whole. Quebec gained about 95 000 people from other countries but lost more than 71 000 people to other Canadian provinces, netting an additional 24 000 people.Hmm.... I wonder why that is?

Quebec's provincial corporate income tax rate is currently 9 percent, the lowest provincial rate in Canada.Can't say we're not trying to keep them here and attract new ones...

A fair look at Quebec . . . . a lot of these issues wherre Quebec is lagging appear related to culture and public policy rather than resources or opportunity:I guess you'd have to live here to fill in what happened from 2000 to 2006, and to understand the importance of which sectors our job losses fall into.:shrug:

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 12:03 PM
I like the adjectives they used in that second stats canada link too:

In Alberta, the continued abundance of employment opportunities has resulted in a new record high employment rate in February (71.6%).

Compared to "have" Quebec:
Overall employment remained little changed in Quebec in February as gains in construction; finance, insurance, real estate and leasing; as well as business, building and other support services were offset by large losses in manufacturing. Over the past 12 months, there have been decreases in paper, primary metal and non-metallic mineral products, plastic and rubber products, as well as in clothing manufacturing. Compared to a year ago, overall employment in the province is up 1.3% (+50,000). The unemployment rate was little changed in February at 7.8%.

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 12:08 PM
And the numbers from the globe:

—St. John's, N.L. 7.4 (7.7)

—Halifax 4.3 (4.4)

—Saint John, N.B. 5.6 (5.9)

—Saguenay, Que. 9.8 (9.4)

—Quebec 5.5 (5.8)

—Trois-Rivieres, Que. 8.1 (7.2)

—Sherbrooke, Que. 7.0 (7.4)

—Montreal 7.5 (7.5)

—Windsor, Ont. 9.8 (9.7)

—Calgary 3.1 (2.6)Hmm... And only the maritimes "have not"? And as far as history goes, In my short little life, I don't remember the unemployment in Quebec EVER being 3.1%.

Ok, I'm done.

Hunter's_owner
March 9th, 2007, 12:21 PM
Wow I am really surprised. The Quebec numbers are very close to (some even higher than) the St. John's numbers:eek:

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 12:30 PM
Yeah, the unemployment goes up a lot in NL when you leave the city, but in Qc, even the cities have sucky unemployment.

Sucks for Windsor though. :sad:

Rick C
March 9th, 2007, 12:31 PM
My, my, my . . . . lots of excuses.

And what does a 3.1% unemployment rate in a province that happens to be hot at the moment have to do with Quebec today or decades ago in determining if its a have or have not province?

It's a decades-long fraud to suggest a province like Quebec, with the opportunities in resources, education, talent and diversity of industry available to its citizens, is a have-not province.

If its struggling today, then it needs to look in the mirror and ask why that is instead of looking for excuses and wallowing in its own misery. This is the first time in four decades when all four corners of the globe are growing in tandem . . . . if some remote corner like Quebec is trailing, then the answer is probably internal . . . . particularly for an economy that has a large resource base during a global resource boom.

Do you see New York whining because labour intensive textile industries, once a critical pillar in that city's economy, are better suited economically for third world countries?

This is where government's can come into play . . . . . recognizing they're uncompetitive in some areas and lowering barriers to business in others where their citizens can compete.

Quebec also has a rather fantastic array of trade barriers within Canada . . . . not particularly helpful.

The problem in Quebec is that all the choices - even if the NDP were relevant there - are decidedly left-leaning in their policies . . . . the better question would be, "Where is the right wing alternative?"

Hmm... Can you live off $30 000 a year, Rick?

I've lived on far less than that actually. I remember one paycheque period where I had $20 for two weeks of food. Lots of Campbells soup and toast.

I didn't like it so I did something about it.

Just like absolutely anyone in this country can do the same if they so choose.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 12:39 PM
Just like absolutely anyone in this country can do the same if they so choose.
Right. We can move to Alberta with the other tens of thousands. ;)

I just think it's unfair for anybody in a province sitting on oil to point fingers at anybody else. :shrug: You fill up your giant gas guzzlers with cheap gas, buy stuff without paying the 7% extra tax and then go to work. Big difference from here in Qc. :D Even the ERs are way different. I've already explained that before though. I've sat in an ER in BC, Alberta and here. Nothing compares to here. In BC I broke my nose and within 45 minutes, I saw the doctor, had my xray and was out the door. Here it took me two days to get an xray - and I still haven't seen a doctor.

Sure, a lot of it is mismanagement, but we're sitting on old infrastructure here too. When you have a boom in the past 10 years, a lot of your infrastructure has to be built and it's all new. Yey! Here in Qc where there are endless outbreaks in hospitals because they're all built 1950's style and where Montreal loses 2/3 of its drinking water through the leaky old pipes, and where overpasses that haven't been maintained properly since being constructed 40 years ago fall and kill people, management seems like just a drop in the bucket.

Hunter's_owner
March 9th, 2007, 12:40 PM
Hmm... Can you live off $30 000 a year, Rick?

I've lived on far less than that actually. I remember one paycheque period where I had $20 for two weeks of food. Lots of Campbells soup and toast.

I didn't like it so I did something about it.

Just like absolutely anyone in this country can do the same if they so choose.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

I actually have to jump in here. Many people in my province have lost their jobs due to several factors beyond NL's control that I am not about to get into right now.

I needed to respond to your comment "Just like absolutely anyone in this country can do the same if they so choose"

For thousands and thousands of NL people, doing something about it means moving to Alberta. ;)

Schwinn
March 9th, 2007, 12:41 PM
I thought this was a friendly conversation? ;)

I gotta agree with Rick, the thought that Quebec would be a have-not province is, IMHO, ridiculous. Given the transfer payments, and the resources, there is no reason that Quebec would be a "have-not". It's even been admitted by previous governments, though not in so many words. It's been said by every separtist government that Quebec would have a viable economy on it's own, and agreed by every economist out there. To this day, economists agree, Quebec does not need Canada to survive, as a have not province would.

What determines whether a province is a have or have-not is the resources available to the province, not the individual citizen's. In Quebec's case, there are an abuncance of resources, and if the people as a whole are suffering, than the blame must be laid at the provincial governments feet.

And economy-wise, there certainly is nothing different happening in Quebec than Ontario. Yes, factories may be closing in Quebec and moving elsewhere, but this is certainly the same situation in not only Ontario, but any province which has a large industry sector. And if Quebec is hurting because of it, then Ontario would be feeling the same effect (and is). The status of "have not" is not determined in a vacuum, but in how the province is fairing in regards to other provinces. Camparatively speaking, there is no reason for Quebec to be lagging behind the rest of the country. And even if we were to use per capita income to determine have-vs have-not, Quebec is fifth place. To say that 4 provinces are "have" provinces while five are "have-nots" is not, to me, realistic. And even at that, yes, most people can live easily on $30K a year (remember, this is per person, not family). Many people are doing it for a lot less (the poverty line is somewhere below $20K)

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 12:44 PM
To this day, economists agree, Quebec does not need Canada to survive, as a have not province would.What? I don't know who your economists are, but "most" economists agree that within a few years of separation, Quebec would go bankrupt. But you'll see that all over the news again if the PQ wins this election. ;)

Rick C
March 9th, 2007, 12:58 PM
Right. We can move to Alberta with the other tens of thousands. ;)



That's correct.

What's taking you so long?

The concept of mobility in a labour force is nothing new and an absolute imperative in a healthy economy.

The vast and often tragic migration of Okies to California, moving from a non-competitive environment, forced out by mechanization of agriculture, is amply captured in Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath.

There have been other great labour migrations in Canadian history as well.

I just think it's unfair for anybody in a province sitting on oil to point fingers at anybody else. :shrug: You fill up your giant gas guzzlers with cheap gas, buy stuff without paying the 7% extra tax and then go to work.

On the whole, gas is not cheaper in Alberta . . . . if it is, then its because your taxes on the commodity are either higher or your local refinery capacity is incapable of delivering on your local demand.

Even the ERs are way different. I've already explained that before though. I've sat in an ER in BC, Alberta and here. Nothing compares to here. In BC I broke my nose and within 45 minutes, I saw the doctor, had my xray and was out the door. Here it took me two days to get an xray - and I still haven't seen a doctor.

So elect a different government.

Sure, a lot of it is mismanagement, but we're sitting on old infrastructure here too.

So elect a different government.

When you have a boom in the past 10 years, a lot of your infrastructure has to be built and it's all new.

And most Albertans would say the impossible pace of economic and population growth has left infrastructure in the province stretched to the breaking point.

Different problem but the same result.

Most Albertans would say inaYey! Here in Qc where there are endless outbreaks in hospitals because they're all built 1950's style and where Montreal loses 2/3 of its drinking water through the leaky old pipes, and where overpasses that haven't been maintained properly since being constructed 40 years ago fall and kill people, management seems like just a drop in the bucket.

So elect a different government.

I thought this was a friendly conversation?

Well, the good news is I haven't been called a racist yet because Quebec happens to be mostly francophone. :highfive: :lovestruck:

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

badger
March 9th, 2007, 12:59 PM
I don't know why Quebec isn't more competitive, we have many creative people here, even a few home-grown empires (Quebecor, Bombardier, Quebecor)
One clue: High school drop-out rates among males is well over 50%
I see Quebec, despite its vitality and its wonderful peculiarities, to be almost a case of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, after the church and the government colluded up until the mid-sixties on manipulating people with their warped morality and their financial corruption, dusted with a kind of 'little guy' faux nationalism. The priests scorned secular education and persuaded women that they were only good for making more little Catholics (and increase the francophone demographic), encouraging an 'underclass mentality'. Illegitimate children were seen as vermin and shut up in orphanages. Some of these children, now elderly, are still trying to get their due.
Almost a closed world, with many sad secrets.
Expo 67 was huge, I think it really opened people's eyes to other possibilities. Then we started getting more modern politicians (who, alas, still resort to the same paternalism when it serves them).
Immigration helps but - I'm sorry - we don't get the cream of the crop, at least economically.
I'm in a doubly sovereigntist riding as well. Charest will win, I think, but he is an uninspiring man and a control freak. For the moment, he's the best we've got.

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 01:10 PM
What's taking you so long?Honestly, it's the Quebec culture that I'd miss. Quebec, for the most part, is very left, and people from all walks of life can walk downtown (even celebrities) and not get noticed. Calgary? Not so sure that applies. Montreal just has a live and let live atmosphere that you just can't get out west. We don't have much but we appreciate it all and live life to the fullest. Wherever I've lived, I've missed that.

On the whole, gas is not cheaper in Alberta . . . . if it is, then its because your taxes on the commodity are either higher or your local refinery capacity is incapable of delivering on your local demand.So you're paying $1.10 a liter,too? Dang! Here I thought you were paying at least 15 cents cheaper than us on a regular basis.

The concept of mobility in a labour force is nothing new and an absolute imperative in a healthy economy.Overall, maybe, but it doesn't do Quebec any good.;)

Different problem but the same result.Oh, so you have C. difficile outbreaks in your hospitals killing hundreds every year too? Dang again.

So elect a different governmentI would, but they're all the same. :shrug:

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 01:12 PM
Thanks for your different perspective, Badger. :) Very interesting.:)

TeriM
March 9th, 2007, 01:17 PM
How about we remember that all provinces are part of CANADA :ca: . Part of the reason that we work so well as a country is that at different times in history different areas of our country step up to support the other areas in need.

Rick C
March 9th, 2007, 01:28 PM
[QUOTE=Prin;388081]Honestly, it's the Quebec culture that I'd miss. Quebec, for the most part, is very left, and people from all walks of life can walk downtown (even celebrities) and not get noticed. Calgary? Not so sure that applies. Montreal just has a live and let live atmosphere that you just can't get out west. We don't have much but we appreciate it all and live life to the fullest. Wherever I've lived, I've missed that.

Ah yes, the inevitable and arrogant "culture" lament from a Quebecer directed towards an Albertan.

Too stereotypical and too predictable.

"Culture," of course, is a subjective topic and most Calgarians don't feel they're suffering culturally at all.

So you're paying $1.10 a liter,too? Dang! Here I thought you were paying at least 15 cents cheaper than us on a regular basis.

You'll note above I told you precisely why Quebec, at various points, might have higher gasoline prices than Alberta.

I'm pretty sure in the gas price volatility of the last two years that prices in Quebec have been periodically lower than in Alberta as well.

The fact Alberta is sitting on the oil has nothing to do with the price of gasoline. That's a fact Jack.

On Labour mobility - Overall, maybe, but it doesn't do Quebec any good.;)

Sure it does . . . . . if you move your butt to where the jobs are or elect a government that allows business to create jobs in your local area.

Oh, so you have C. difficile outbreaks in your hospitals killing hundreds every year too? Dang again.

We're going to get into an argument over which health care system is killing more people in a year?

Elect a different government if it bothers you so much.

I would, but they're all the same. :shrug

I believe I said that above. . . . . . and said you needed a right wing alternative in Quebec to give you a choice.

Part of the reason that we work so well as a country is that at different times in history different areas of our country step up to support the other areas in need.

You'll note I'm not arguing against the concept of equalization payments.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 01:33 PM
The fact Alberta is sitting on the oil has nothing to do with the price of gasoline. That's a fact Jack.It has everything to do with it. Why aren't you paying any provincial taxes, Rick?

TeriM
March 9th, 2007, 01:35 PM
Honestly, it's the Quebec culture that I'd miss. Quebec, for the most part, is very left, and people from all walks of life can walk downtown (even celebrities) and not get noticed. Calgary? Not so sure that applies. Montreal just has a live and let live atmosphere that you just can't get out west. We don't have much but we appreciate it all and live life to the fullest. Wherever I've lived, I've missed that.


I could say the same things about Vancouver that you say about Montreal. I think that probably every area of the country could say that about their own spot. We tend to find the spot that works best for us and stay there :) .

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 01:42 PM
I thought this was interesting:
http://www.edmontonrealestateblog.com/my_weblog/albertas_economy/index.html
The point of all this was, if Ontario and Quebec slow down, the national inflation rate will drop, and the bank of Canada will have to lower interest rates. This would help those in Alberta trying to afford homes at the new price levels we've seen recently, and therefore help sustain the higher prices.Good for Alberta- the houses go up but you can still afford them. Win/win!

As for gas prices, it doesn't look like Quebec has been below Alberta for at least 15 years now...
http://www.capp.ca/SHB/Sheet.asp?SectionID=5&SheetID=95

Rick C
March 9th, 2007, 01:56 PM
It has everything to do with it. Why aren't you paying any provincial taxes, Rick?

Actually, the better question would be: "Why are you paying a provincial tax on gas Prin?"

Quebec is the only province in Canada, through to 2005 at least, charging a provincial SALES tax on gasoline:

http://www.petro-canada.ca/en/media/2128.aspx

Kaboom.

Taxes are imposed by government on top of what gasoline might have as a value.

Obviously.

If you think gasoline prices are too high, look at the ability of local refineries to process and deliver the product to your area as well as your local taxation. Those are the relevant factors. Where the oil is located is not since it still has to be converted to a refined product.

My property price is up more than 100% in the eight years . . . . . which pretty much catches up to the values in places like Montreal and Toronto but still trails Vancouver. If anything, my rural value - with a view - probably trails a similar value out East.

I'm sure I have other things to do than this. :rip:

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 02:11 PM
My property price is up more than 100% in the eight years . . . . . which pretty much catches up to the values in places like Montreal Montreal is lagging far, far, far behind Calgary.
Quebec is the only province in Canada, through to 2005 at least, charging a provincial SALES tax on gasoline:Actually, the HST in the maritimes is provincial and federal all in one.;)

CyberKitten
March 9th, 2007, 02:15 PM
Rick, while I agree that everyone can help themselves, the problem is you end up creating problems for the province left behind. Those who leave the Maritimes send their money home often but you have scores of family problems - and I see them (in the kind of ER Prin had to sit in but nonetheless...that's another story).

Admittedly, I have never thought of Quebec as a have not province - especially when NB and Ontario allow workers to be employed or contractors to work there but Quebec refuses anyone from either of those 2 to do the same. In other words, those trade agreements you refer to have created bad feelings. Quebec seems good at that - I thnk they were introduced by the PQ but the Liberals diod nothing to change them - they are a very sore point here! Esp in northern NB where Quebecers get a special tax rate and NBers do not because Quebecers in the Gaspé live in a remote region but NBers 1 km away do not???? I'm sorry but that does not make sense to me.

There was time it was the Maritimes and Quebec who bailed out Alberta and Sask - esp during the depression when ppl collected money to send to those provinces and while I don't recall that personally, others do. It is why we have a confederation. So that we can all share and help each other (at the risk of sounding like one of those characters on Sesame Street, lol)

No one of can afford to say we are doing so much better than the others because one never knows when the economy will turn. I gre up in NB but it was a community that was one of the most thriving in the country - still is but even in Halifax which is doing well, we export our youth. We call it the brain drain and we in the Maritimes have been doing for yrs but we have more universities per capita and these grads have to go somewhere. Personally, I admire those who stay here and try to help the region and IO try to do that. I have not always been successful but I like my lifestyle and while I hear weekly from recruiters - if only because I ended up thru no fault of my own :D in a career where there are too few people but I choose to stay here. Even I make half a million a year in say Texas, the cost if living is always going to be higher. Actually, that is one of the problems of people i n the Maritimes who go to Alberta face. They complain about the cost of housing - or no housing - and even fewer social services. I think the infrastructure was not in place and the govt was not prepared for that. They just want the money. I think that was Honest Ed won - even if I was glad he did, lol - those in northern Alberta have the resources and feel their money is going south to Calgary and they see no improvement in housing, education, etc. The n again, half of the people now in Alberta are Maritimers so I better not complain, lol (That;s prob why the place is so successful <Ducking> - tho havng all that oil helps too.

Seriously, there are ways so called have not provinces (I hate the term have not, it is like a lobby group that began in some NS community called The future Homeless (Can we see any inspiration there, lol) can improve if not their lifestyle -which is actually quite good - but their economic base. Using the IT sector is one and earmarking cities or communities and developing areas of expertise is another. There is an interesting concept called Atlantica that is being developed in Saint John to make that part of the Maritimes the energy hub and the city is very well suited for that. Moncton is doing very well and while I hate to see rural communities decline or be lost forever, if they had a resource and lost it or did not create a manufacturing sector and anyone knows that for every resource job, there are 5 in manufacturing - then they need to ask themselves some questions as well.

I have never thought large scale govt projects like power projects to sell power to the US are good because the outcome is a few specialized jobs and the spinoffs occur only during the construction period. It is the old fashioned pork barrel manner of politics and never worked = as we can see. Both the Maritimes anf Quebec seem to like these projects whether it iss the Gentilly power plant or James Bay or Pt LePreau or the Sydney Steel plant in Cape Breton which was propped up by the giovt for years - tho they did little for the miners!!

Anyway - I thought this was about the election, lol

Puppyluv
March 9th, 2007, 03:01 PM
Alberta has a culture comparable to Montreal? HAHAHAHA. Sorry. that's a reeeaalllyy funny joke Rick.:laughing:

Rick C
March 9th, 2007, 03:26 PM
Alberta has a culture comparable to Montreal? HAHAHAHA. Sorry. that's a reeeaalllyy funny joke Rick.:laughing:

Thanks for confirming my point for me.

And you'll note I never said the cultures were comparable.

Anyhoo, I got things to do, including a run. It's a beautiful day!!

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 03:27 PM
Ah yes, the inevitable and arrogant "culture" lament from a Quebecer directed towards an Albertan.
Thanks for confirming my point for me.
How so? She's from Alberta. :confused:

K9Friend
March 9th, 2007, 03:47 PM
Alberta has a culture comparable to Montreal? HAHAHAHA. Sorry. that's a reeeaalllyy funny joke Rick.:laughing:

Having lived in both cities - there is no comparison! That's why I came back! :thumbs up

Dracko
March 9th, 2007, 06:39 PM
I think many people always take the "grass is always greener" attitude. There are obviously various things that make any place more or less desirable to each person.

I hardly think, though, putting down AB for not charging any provincial sales tax is fair. Their gov't has managed things in such a way over the years that they don't need to take more from their people. Whether you agree or not with their politics, it's a fact that they are debt free and charge no PST. As well, I for one wouldn't want to pay no PST but drive in the traffic that Edmonton/Calgary have.:eek:

There are lots of negatives to living in Saskatchewan (#1 no one ever remembers we are here :laughing: ) but I tend to focus on the positives. My nephew is currently living in NFLD (now, THAT's a "have not" province) and he realizes that employment is a problem (he's in school right now) but absolutely loves the place. He knows things are expensive there but feels it is a price he is willing to pay to live in a place he is in love with.

I would agree also, that if you can't afford to live where you do the only answer is to relocate or re-elect a gov't that can change things. Every single person is faced with challenges regardless where they live. Right now I am househunting. The average cost of a house here right now is $191,000 (was $121,000 only 3 months ago! In Calgary it is $459,000 (at least the paper said that this past weekend). I'm much rather pay out PST on items I can choose to buy than live in a wealthy province and not be able to afford to buy a home!

LL1
March 9th, 2007, 06:55 PM
Quebec bashing is something I see a lot online from Albertans,sometimes it almost seems like Alberta has separated and joined the US,or just appears to want to.

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 06:57 PM
I think many people always take the "grass is always greener" attitude. There are obviously various things that make any place more or less desirable to each person.hehe, I'm not sure if I'm saying the grass is greener somewhere else as much as I'm saying here, it's brown as far as economics goes. But everything else is greener here.;)

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 07:10 PM
Quebec bashing is something I see a lot online from Albertans,sometimes it almost seems like Alberta has separated and joined the US,or just appears to want to.

When I was out west, the most common complaint I heard about the government was that it was run by Quebec and Ontario. All I have to say about Quebec in that is that at least our politicians stepped up to protect Quebecers. We're the only ones with a political party of our own, and IMO, if you look at the big picture, that's because we are the only ones who can drum up enough support within our boundaries to make a difference on a federal level. The Bloc platform is broad enough to please most Quebecers, separatist or not, unlike the rest of the federal parties who are there to get support from different, smaller, more extreme demographics.

Sure, we have more ridings here than out west, but honestly, that's not for us to fight about. Stephen Harper is in now, and before the next election, if it's really that unfair, we'd expect it to be alllll reorganized, right?

I did hear of talk of separation out west too, but honestly, if Albertans and British Columbians think they're invisible in Canada, I can't even imagine how invisible they'd feel if either got swallowed up by the US. :shrug:

LL1
March 9th, 2007, 07:16 PM
When I was out west, the most common complaint I heard about the government was that it was run by Quebec and Ontario.

I see that complaint regularly.

CyberKitten
March 9th, 2007, 10:03 PM
Stephen Harper cannot reorganizer the ridings - that takes a commission and it is done every 10 yrs and is dependent on population tho they have a certain % with which to work. (ir a riding cannot go below a certain figure.) So Quebec will likely continue to have 75 seats and Ontario maybe 1-2 more and I would think BC and Fort MacMurray prob has enuf for one. :D (But they'll all vote like Maritimers which is to say not that differently than Albertans, lol) OK, that is some Maritimers - Halifax is excluded from that list since it is a bastion of the NDP.

Interestingly, in the US- the House of Congress gets to keep their 400 plus members of Congress (no increase) butt there is a redistribution and it is made by the states so a Democratic governor can have a lot to say about a Republican Congress or vice versa tho I do know that now the Congress is democrat. The term gerrymander - which is what some politicans do to change ridings to suit their own needs - was actually coined after a politican named that in Massachusetts. <g>

Anyway - this Quebec race is becoming interesting - it would be amazing and I thin the national media is salivating at the thought - if Super Mario cane 2nd and the separatists were relegated to third. We'll see- I wonder if I can take my bets back, lol

Puppyluv
March 9th, 2007, 11:12 PM
We're the only ones with a political party of our own, and IMO, if you look at the big picture, that's because we are the only ones who can drum up enough support within our boundaries to make a difference on a federal level. [/QUOTE]

While I agree that Quebec has had significant success in making noise on the National front, you're not exactly correct here. Don't forget that the Reform party was the baby of the west. True, it no longer exists, but it made a lot of noise while it was around. Its merging with the PCs to form the CCRAP (:laughing: ) party, and eventually the Conservative Party that we have today, ed to a more national party, but there is no denying that the Conservative Party has its strongest roots in Alberta.

hazelrunpack
March 9th, 2007, 11:44 PM
Quebec bashing is something I see a lot online from Albertans,sometimes it almost seems like Alberta has separated and joined the US,or just appears to want to.

LOL :sorry: I just have to chime in here because this statement struck me as funny...made me laugh--not a sarcastic laugh...just a belly laugh...funny laugh. Are you saying that the US does a lot of Quebec-bashing, or is the back-hand statement about Alberta joining the US unrelated to the Quebec-bashing? :laughing:

This is a very interesting thread. I'm learning a lot about Canadian politics that I didn't know. :thumbs up Seems like problems are the same everywhere...and philosophies don't vary much, either. :shrug: Just the names change...

TeriM
March 9th, 2007, 11:58 PM
When I was out west, the most common complaint I heard about the government was that it was run by Quebec and Ontario.

I did hear of talk of separation out west too, but honestly, if Albertans and British Columbians think they're invisible in Canada, I can't even imagine how invisible they'd feel if either got swallowed up by the US. :shrug:

That is a fairly valid complaint I would say (of course from an impartial BCer :D ). Until the last few elections the outcome of the government was already a done deal before our polls even closed out here. We are finally slowly getting more representation now :thumbs up .

.... and nothing against our US neighbors but I doubt I could come up with a single person who would rather become a US state than stay with Canada :eek:

CyberKitten
March 10th, 2007, 12:25 AM
Hmmmm... was not going to comment but I think it is a bit harsh to say that there is no one in Canada who would not move to the US. My sister has for one and you need to know more about the Maritimes which has much in common with New England including family. We sin the Maritimes call it the Boston States. It does not mean we agree with the current govt (tho that would not make us unique, lol) and given the chance, about the only place I might be persuaded to go - other than Ireland - is Boston. But that is a whole other story and I was asked once but did not like to leave where I was so who knows. I did refuse to move to Texas though, lol (Nothing against tx, it is just not the Maritimes.) Going down the road for Maitimers used to mean Boston or Gardner or one of the NE cities and even Wisconsin and Washington state and last year, about 1/3 of my students went to the US. That is not unusual either. Like me, sometimes, they may have done their initial medical degree at an American university.

I actually do not believe Canada is run by Quebec and Ontario tho they do have more seats and do have a lot to say. But having been involved - and continue to be involved in politics tho not currently as an elected member of a legislature- I see many people from all parts of the country involved and with differing degrees of so called power. It is amazing what a small caucus of people ca n get accomplished. It is not just about numbers - it is about how the game is played. Yes, you need numbers for votes and there is something to be said for Tip O'Neill's All politics is local remark but in Canada, negotiations often lead to endings good for parts that are not just Quebec and Ontario. I so feel it rather curious - and not very national for a party claiming to be so national - that the Liberal Party has NEVER elected a Leader from outside of either of those two provinces. The Tories on the other hand, have had someone from just about every province except PEI -which is so tiny anyway. (with all due respect to my friends from PEI - the Tories have had RB Bennett - who was born in Hopewell Rocks, NB, Sir John Thompson, the first Premier to be Prime Minister and first Catholic - from Halifax - Dief from Sask, Stephen Harper from Alberta to name just a few. I think the Tories have been a more populist party anyway if you look at Canadian politics.

Even the NDP has had Leaders - lik,e Tommy Douglas - from outside Ont and Quebec. And Audrey McLaughlin and of course Alexa.

We in Nova Scotia like to say we have had the best Prime Minister Canada never had - Robert Stanfield - but wasn't this about Quebec, lol

TeriM
March 10th, 2007, 12:33 AM
I didn't mean that someone would never move individually to the US. I personally have had family/friends move there for specific job opportunities and/or romantic entaglements. I meant that people wouldn't vote to not be a Cdn Province vs. a US state. I think (perhaps nieve :rolleyes: ) that despite all our differences we are firstly Canadians.

I also stated that I think that things have greatly improved in the whole Ontario/Quebec running the country issue. The west coast has actually been well represented in cabinet positions in the last few governments.

TeriM
March 10th, 2007, 12:34 AM
:offtopic: Just wanted to say that last year I attended the "Women of Distinction" lecture series and Deborah Gray (first elected Reform member) was speaking. It turns out that during her first term in office her Ottawa clerk was Stephen Harper :eek: .

Hunter's_owner
March 10th, 2007, 09:19 AM
Quebec is the only province in Canada, through to 2005 at least, charging a provincial SALES tax on gasoline:

http://www.petro-canada.ca/en/media/2128.aspx

Kaboom.


Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

I just wanted to add that Newfoundland and the other Atlantic Provinces charge GST on their gasoline as well.
Here instead of two taxes, GST and PST, they have combined it into HST.

Stacer
March 10th, 2007, 10:29 AM
LOL :sorry: I just have to chime in here because this statement struck me as funny...made me laugh--not a sarcastic laugh...just a belly laugh...funny laugh. Are you saying that the US does a lot of Quebec-bashing, or is the back-hand statement about Alberta joining the US unrelated to the Quebec-bashing? :laughing:

This is a very interesting thread. I'm learning a lot about Canadian politics that I didn't know. :thumbs up Seems like problems are the same everywhere...and philosophies don't vary much, either. :shrug: Just the names change...

I don't think they're saying that the US does Quebec bashing, it's unrelated. I think LL1 was just saying that alot of Alberta's views are very American.

hazelrunpack
March 10th, 2007, 10:46 AM
I don't think they're saying that the US does Quebec bashing, it's unrelated. I think LL1 was just saying that alot of Alberta's views are very American.

I suspect you're right (and thought so last night, too)--for some reason, the apparent logic (or illogic) of the sentence just really cracked me up last night. :o Mighta just been overly tired. :crazy: (But it's still tickling my chuckle bone this morning...:D)

LL1
March 10th, 2007, 12:06 PM
I don't think they're saying that the US does Quebec bashing, it's unrelated. I think LL1 was just saying that alot of Alberta's views are very American.

Yes,thanks.And the separatist movement is not surprising imo.

EdwinBird
March 10th, 2007, 01:05 PM
I think a lot of Albertans' views are very "conservative" as opposed to "American." Or, atleast, I think that's what most conservative Albertans would say (which is what I would say, and I don't consider myself very conservative... am I making any sense?)

There's a strong resentment (which, with the Harper Government, has subsided somewhat) in Alberta that Ottawa is only really concerned with Ontario and Quebec. And to a degree that's not too incorrect. But, since there are a whole lot more people in Ontario and Quebec, it also make some sense. There are obviously more seats in Ontario and Quebec so a good politician is going to recognize that.

As for the Quebec election - not being from Quebec, I don't always spend much attention on it, but I'm never too happy when the separatists do well.

Rick C
March 11th, 2007, 12:04 PM
Quebec bashing is something I see a lot online from Albertans,sometimes it almost seems like Alberta has separated and joined the US,or just appears to want to.

Just a weekend drive-by . . . .

If you look at my posts above, you'll see I said Quebec is not a have-not province, which is actually a compliment, that there should be no material difference between its economic performance and Ontario's and that it has the talent and resources to do very well . . . . . none of which is actually "Quebec bashing."

My question of "where's your pride?" is about the only thing could be construed as bashing. . . . . . and it's a very valid question for Quebecers.

A recent Stats Can study on net beneficiaries of Confederation:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/11-010-XIB/00207/feature.htm

And a follow-up column bashing Quebec based on the study:

http://www.rbcinvest.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/LAC/20070308/RYAKABUSKI08/Business/business/businessColumnistsHeadline/3/3/7/

As to the second part of your comment, there are about 80,000 American citizens living in Calgary alone and there is more of a north south outlook here than east west, more of a commonality with Texas and California than the vast gulf of distance between attitudes and habits in Ontario or Quebec. The Maritimes might as well be on another planet. That's probably true in BC as well.

As one of the few born and bred Albertan's, I don't think I've ever seen Quebec and Ontario have less relevance in Alberta than we see today.

How so? She's from Alberta.

I said how you view your culture is subjective - beauty being in the eye of the beholder - and that point flew between her ears.

I actually didn't say one culture is better than the other.

I said only that Calgarians, who recently gave their city a 95% approval rating on the happiness scale, certainly find the sense of superiority on the part of Montrealers fairly amusing.

But, if you want me to get a dig in, then I'll say I'm sure the underground mall in Montreal is wonderful this time of year.

Gone for a few days . . . .

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

meb999
March 11th, 2007, 02:08 PM
all the parties suck. All politicians are thieves. In Qc, unfortunetly, you only have 2 choices : vote for the seperatists (PQ) or for liberals. If you vote any other party than liberal, you're voting seperatist. That's all I have to say about it.

Prin
March 12th, 2007, 01:54 AM
Yep. A vote for anybody who's not a Liberal is a vote for the PQ. :sad:

CyberKitten
March 12th, 2007, 04:14 PM
Sounds like strategic voting to me - voting Lib to keep out the separatists but if I were in Quebec even to I am not a Liberal, I would certainly be voting for them provincially! The PQ seems to be having troubles of their own - all the parties seem to this time around actually, Jean Charest with his partition comments, Biosclair with various probs with the PQ (I think it has always been a delicate dance between the eight and left of that party - that always happens in a nationalist party) and the ADQ has lost 2 candidates due to things they have said.

Re Rick, I have to disagree to some extent with the Maritimes being a non entity with Albertans. That is prob true in general - with the typyical Albertan if there is such an entity. (I was part of a group who coaxed the Deputy Minister of Health from your prov to come to NS and he did - he was CEO of the largest hospital in the Maritimes for awhile. Very interesting man.) He agreed with me that there is an attitude amg people there - as with any group of ppl who are trisk takers and entrepeneurs - that there is this pioneer spirit.

That said, it has always been my experience in attending more national conferences than I care to admit to that Maritimers had much more in common with BC and Alberta than the middle provinces- and we always agreed it had something to do with both being on the extremes or margins of the country. Not margins as in marginal but margins as in not in the center or power and thus having a different perspective. This is not to say we feel differently toward Ont or Quebec - tho in NS we call ppl from Ontario and even the west on occasion "come from aways, cfa's, not a term I am fond of either as someone who grew up on the border of Quebec and Maine in northern NB - in a community that was like a microcosm of Canada - bilingual, open minded, etc. It is just that the further away one is from the center of power - politically anyway I(I think the center of power economically is quite different as our world changes dramatically. Here in the Maritimes, many businesses work more with Boston than they do with Toronto - it has more to do with geography than with choice. I have friends and family in BC and Washington state and we always note how similar we feel re certain issues.

Anyway - just some more thoughts - do not want to digress!!! I hope Jean Charest wins on the 25th!!

Prin
March 13th, 2007, 02:55 AM
I hope Jean Charest wins on the 25th!!hehe, but then he'd look like a crazy person and probably lose on the 26th. teeheehee :laughing:

Rick C
March 14th, 2007, 01:25 PM
Amusingly, completely by coincidence and addressing the sidebar issue in the thread, the New York Times today with a lengthy treatise on Calgary, describing it as the hip cultural centre of the New West and listing virtues therein.

http://travel.nytimes.com/2007/03/11/travel/11NEXT.html?8dpc

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

EdwinBird
March 14th, 2007, 01:43 PM
I wonder if Calgary is becoming a larger cultural centre in Canada or simply more of a city for the rich. Or maybe that's the same thing.

At any case, I usually find it rather ridiculous when there are debates about which major city (any major city, really) has "better culture."



And, yes, I know I'm further the off-topic (or side topic) on this thread.:evil:

Rick C
March 14th, 2007, 01:45 PM
I wonder if Calgary is becoming a larger cultural centre in Canada or simply more of a city for the rich. Or maybe that's the same thing.

At any case, I usually find it rather ridiculous when there are debates about which major city (any major city, really) has "better culture."

I agree, which is why I didn't initially compare them . . . . I just said "Culture is subjective."

However, if engaged . . . :angel:

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

Prin
March 14th, 2007, 06:14 PM
So the debate was good. IMO, Jean Charest and Mario Dumont came out far on top of Boisclair, who just came off as a 5 year old, repeating questions over and over. :rolleyes: