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Another food for Jemma and Boo...

Prin
March 1st, 2007, 04:16 PM
Ok, so TO is still too hard to get, and too fishy since we don't know where it's made, even though I did call Doane yesterday and they assured me that they don't make it....

Anyway, so I bought a gigantic bag of Canidae lamb and rice.

So...

Both doggies should be able to do it, but will they do it well?

And what are the opinions about mixing it? Hey, I'll do a poll. :) I'm asking because the Canidae is so low at 21% protein, but they aren't doing so well on BATM and Evo RM either... It's nothing major, but I want them to be better than this, you know? Jemma's got dry skin and Boo has super gas and a "softer than it's supposed to be" stool...

Any opinions?

Canidae Lamb and rice (http://www.canidae.com/dogs/lamb-and-rice/dry.html):
457 kcal/cup
21% protein
12.5% fat

EvoRM (http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=product-detail&pxsl=%2F%2Fproduct%5B@id%3D%271404%27%5D)(for Boo)
487 kcal/cup
42% protein
22% fat

BATM (http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=81&code=120) (for Jemma)
402kcal.cup
41% protein
20%fat

Scott_B
March 1st, 2007, 04:37 PM
Id try them both on Canidae L&R. See how they do for a month or two on that. worth a try imo.

Prin
March 1st, 2007, 04:45 PM
The low protein doesn't bug you? :o

Spirit
March 1st, 2007, 05:18 PM
21%?? I'm pretty sure it's 24%. Platinum (senior and overweight) might be 21%...

Edit: SORRY! Most of my customers at work buy chicken. Whoops! Sorry.

Prin
March 1st, 2007, 05:25 PM
lol Your reaction was exactly mine in the store. :laughing:

21%? Wait... No.. Wait. 21%?

:laughing:

rainbow
March 1st, 2007, 05:39 PM
I voted half Canidae L + R mixed with the food they're on now to increase the protein.

technodoll
March 1st, 2007, 07:07 PM
i voted to dilute the grainless kibble with the canidae... definitely need more than the measly 21% protein IMO :o i really hope this works for the furries! :highfive:

Hunter's_owner
March 1st, 2007, 08:22 PM
I voted half and half. Try that for awhile and see how that goes:shrug:

Prin
March 1st, 2007, 08:26 PM
hehe what a decisive poll.:D

I think I'll go 1/2 and 1/2 till I finish the brand new bag of evo RM I have, and till I finish Jemma's end of BATM...

Hunter's_owner
March 1st, 2007, 08:28 PM
Yeah hopefull by then you will notice a difference which will help you decide what to do then...

Frenchy
March 1st, 2007, 08:35 PM
and till I finish Jemma's end of BATM...

Batman ? :confused: :D

Prin
March 1st, 2007, 08:49 PM
lol Barking at the Moon. :D

Frenchy
March 1st, 2007, 08:52 PM
lol Barking at the Moon. :D

oh, ok. http://bestsmileys.com/animals/13.gif

gypsy_girl
March 2nd, 2007, 10:35 AM
Can you find out the % of protein from meat souces (not plant) that would answer my question as to whether there is "enough" I just think that 21% protein with half being plant based the other half meat based, wouldn't cut it for me.
Also because the fat is included in the protein % on label, make sure they don't include the fat in that %, only MEAT or MEAL.

Prin
March 2nd, 2007, 04:07 PM
Also because the fat is included in the protein % on label, make sure they don't include the fat in that %, only MEAT or MEALI don't understand that bit.:o

It's not too likely that all the 21% protein is from meat...

Lamb Meal, Brown Rice, Canola Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Flax Seed, Sun cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil,

Hmm... If we look at the nutritional data... Here I go again.:D
Lamb: http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c21Eb.html
Brown Rice: http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c21U2.html

If the food was 51% lamb and 49% brown rice, the lamb would represent 36.72% protein and the brown rice would represent 3.43% or the protein. But this food isn't 40.15% protein, right? So that would mean that if the protein only came from the lamb and brown rice, both would account for about 52% of the food's contents. But there are other protein sources after the fat that would contribute too:
Flax seed (12% protein): http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20p1.html
Alfalfa (42% protein): http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20b8.html

So the lamb and rice become even less than 52% of the foods' contents... That's not a lot of lamb.:o


Another cool grain table for humans I found in passing...
http://www.agric.nsw.gov.au/reader/rice-science-quality/tg-nutritional.htm

And beef carcass data...
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20pN.html

gypsy_girl
March 2nd, 2007, 04:18 PM
No, for sure 21% of the protein is not from lamb.... However as you have included the protein in the rice, you ALSO need to include the protein from the fat, as this is done when determining ON LABEL protein levels. Because a calculation is done to determine the protein on label, manufacturers also have the % that comes from meat, % from plant, and SHOULD tell you the % from fat, as it does supply protein even though it is typically thought of as only a fat source.
The other thing is that the crude protein supplied by lamb meal may vary depending on manufacturing processes, so it it always good to get ACTUAL % of protein from meat based on the proteins that THEY are using. Gosh I hope this makes sense....:fingerscr

Prin
March 2nd, 2007, 04:25 PM
It is so hard to find the right data! :yell: Ok... so this part is wrong:
If the food was 51% lamb and 49% brown rice, the lamb would represent 36.72% protein and the brown rice would represent 3.43% or the protein. But this food isn't 40.15% protein, right? So that would mean that if the protein only came from the lamb and brown rice, both would account for about 52% of the food's contents.

I'm trying to find the numbers overall for a whole lamb, and it's so impossible! :yell:

Ok, ground lamb (http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c21Dh.html) is 25% protein (after moisture removal)...
And Lamb by-products (http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c21DS.html) are 23% protein... So we'll say 25% protein to be easy. :laughing:

So if it's 51% lamb and 49% brown rice, then the lamb is 12.75% of the protein in 100 grams, and the rice is still 3.34%. The total now is 16.18% protein. So add a bit more lamb, plus all the proteiny extras and there you go, 21%.

I did the math :laughing: , and it's around 70% lamb (17.5% protein) and 30% rice (2.1% protein) and the rest might be extras... So it's ok again.:D But still low protein. If they had put 80% lamb and 20% rice, then they'd still only be at 21.4% without the extras and the cost would have been significantly increased too...

Anyway....:D

Prin
March 2nd, 2007, 04:26 PM
Gypsygirl, I checked canola oil and there was 0% protein in it and 100% fat...:o

gypsy_girl
March 2nd, 2007, 04:29 PM
Yes is this the only oil source??? I was speaking more of the fat source ie chicken fat. I will check the ingredients, this is the Canidae LR?

Prin
March 2nd, 2007, 04:30 PM
There's canola and sunflower. :shrug: And both have no protein:

Sunflower: http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c21DS.html
Canola: http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20A1.html

gypsy_girl
March 2nd, 2007, 04:37 PM
Yup, you're on the right track, Flax Seed has some and the alfalfa, so your calculations are correct more or less. The flax seed supplies 12%, and the alfalfa anywhere from 16-22%, but being that they are after the fat sources SHOULD be marginal.
GENERALLY meats are anywhere from 12-16% protein and meat meals 62%-66% protein. Keep in mind though that the more bone (ash) there is in a meal it ALSO supplies more protein on label that does not have the amino acid profile of a meat source. This means that it is not considered a utilizable protein. Whew!
Another thought.
Even if the recipe was 51% lamb meal the protein it supplies on label is 33% using 66% as the crude protein.

technodoll
March 2nd, 2007, 05:24 PM
prin you should add a "headache factor" to your poll :laughing: man, tinkering with food is sooo complicated... (i love raw feeding, it's so simple!) :o

Prin
March 2nd, 2007, 05:26 PM
lol If you want to feed kibble, you have to think like the kibblers (i.e. complicated and sneaky).:D

Prin
March 2nd, 2007, 05:26 PM
Oh and can you imagine all the math I would have to do if I fed raw? No doubt I'd turn it into a science. :laughing:

technodoll
March 2nd, 2007, 05:31 PM
he he! prin i would call you The chef-by numbers :D :p

Hunter's_owner
March 2nd, 2007, 05:33 PM
Yeah Prin, that is what I would do too. I think the sciencey people are like that with everything.

Prin
March 2nd, 2007, 05:43 PM
lol how do you know your dogs are getting enough of everything if you don't math it up? :laughing:

technodoll
March 2nd, 2007, 05:49 PM
it's ok to math things up in the beginning, until you can "eyeball portions" and feel good about doing things more casually after a while... when you think of it though, don't most of our dogs eat better than we do? i don't remember the last time i "balanced" a meal :D

Prin
March 2nd, 2007, 05:51 PM
Oh, mine was today.

Veg: potatoes
Dairy: cheese
Meat, grains, etc: sauce
= homemade poutine! :laughing:

technodoll
March 2nd, 2007, 05:53 PM
hey! that's my dinner! :highfive: now if only hubby can get his butt home so we can eat :mad:

back to the thread, :sorry:

have you started the two-food mix yet? :o

gypsy_girl
March 2nd, 2007, 06:04 PM
Regarding the sneaky kibblers.... This calculation is the same that "premade" raw uses when determing protein on label. As an example if the bone is ground, that ground bone supplies "protein" on label, so depending on the makers they may or may not use this "calculation"
Feeding raw yourself as opposed to premade is probably better,as you know exactly what you are feeding. I do this, but I also get my meat tested, as where I live we are selenium deficient, and that is a concern for me. This is tricky, as it means I am buying the whole animal, as I do not wish to test meat every time I go to the butcher.l

rainbow
March 2nd, 2007, 06:10 PM
Prin, in your spare time, I think you should "math up" all the dog food brands. :D

gypsy_girl
March 2nd, 2007, 06:24 PM
Yes please!! That would be great. You don't need to sleep that much right?;)

rainbow
March 2nd, 2007, 06:42 PM
LOL, gypsy girl....actually, in all fairness, I think you should and Prin should split the job. :D

Scott_B
March 2nd, 2007, 07:20 PM
lol how do you know your dogs are getting enough of everything if you don't math it up? :laughing:

Its Soooooooo simple. Feed a variety of meats, organs & bones and magic, they get everything they need :p Mother nature has the best science :thumbs up

coppperbelle
March 2nd, 2007, 07:59 PM
What if you fed the Canidae and added some protein to their meals? When I was concerned about the protein level in the DVP I gave both my dogs sardines, cooked chicken and/or beef.

Prin
March 2nd, 2007, 08:01 PM
The budget's a little tight these days, and these doggies can't digest real fish (i.e cheap sardines :D).:rolleyes: I really got buggered with these two. :frustrated: Bring 'em back!! :D :laughing: :o

coppperbelle
March 2nd, 2007, 08:04 PM
Then I would try just the Canidae once you are through with the other foods. See how they do on it. If you find they aren't doing well then you can try something else.

OntarioGreys
March 3rd, 2007, 02:40 AM
Here is my thoughts.

First question have you been giving supplements all along with all the food changes ????? The resons I ask is one person I can recall was going through the same problems with food, it turned out it was something in the supplement that she was using that dog was allergic too, so it screwed up all her food testing results. Just something to consider

First I would transition to 100% canidae L&R so I know if it agrees with their digestive tract and does not produce allergies before worrying about meat content. Try for a couple months if no severe reactions all alone, if you need treat use the kibble as the treat( you want nothing to interfer with the testing results, a mistake many people make as they do not remove all other possible food source that could potentially be causing problems, that includes supplements such as oils and yogurt ) Coat may not be great due to the low protein and fat, but that is okay for the trial as long as no itchiness or irritation.

If trial is complete and things have went okay now time to do something about the protein. You did not like the results of the other food and do not know if some ingredient is causing a problem, so it really makes no sense to add. So my suggestion is to go with 100% natural proteins as an additive to boost the meat content, and not canned as too many additives to really identify what could be causing problems.

My first choice recommendation would be adding a 1/2 to 3/4 cup of raw tripe daily you can get frozen and pre cut into serving sized chunks, thaw before serving. TD may be able to help you find a source ( canned cooked tripe has almost half the protein and amino acids would be damaged due to cooking, plus preservatives are added) would help digestion and allow better metabolism usage of minerals in the food you, then there is no need ever for yogurt or adding supplements which could also be the source of problems

In an analysis of a sample of green tripe by a Woodson-Tenant Lab in Atlanta, Georgia, (see end of this article for full details) it was discovered that the calcium:phosphorous ratio is 1:1, the overall pH is on the acidic side which is better for digestion, protein is 15.1, fat 11.7 & it contained the essential fatty acids, Linoleic & Linolenic, in their recommended proportions. Also discovered, was the presence of Lactic Acid Bacteria. Lactic Acid Bacteria, also known as Lactobacillus Acidophilus, is the good intestinal bacteria. It is the main ingredient in probiotics.


Finally, because of its rubbery texture, serving it in large chunks also aids the canine in strengthening its jaw muscles & has an added benefit as a form of canine dental floss.



If you can't source then find raw regular ground beef best to buy in bulk prepare to freeze like hamburger patties in serving size, thaw before serving don't bother with lean, dogs need animal fat, most commercial diets do not contain enough and there causes lack of hydration which in turn affects skin and coat, when starting out add just a bit, so that you dogs can build up the digestive enzymes to digest, gradually increase to a cup a day added to their kibble.

Again while doing trials of meat additives do not introduce any other additives or treats that could skew results.

gypsy_girl
March 3rd, 2007, 10:41 AM
I'm with Ontario Greys on every point!

Skryker
March 3rd, 2007, 11:33 AM
Just my :2cents: , but transition them to just the L&R and see how that goes for awhile. I wonder if Jemma's flakeys are from something that Solid Gold is doing since they adjusted all their formulas?

Prin
March 3rd, 2007, 11:49 AM
OG, I know it's not the supplement because when I stop the supplement, she gets worse really quickly...:o

It's day two of giving them about 1/4 of the Canidae at each meal and Jemma's already starting to chew her paws. :frustrated: Could be just the salt though, so I'm going to wait and see a little longer.

As for treats, these days, all they are getting is 100% beef liver.:shrug:

rainbow
March 3rd, 2007, 11:49 AM
I think OG's post makes a lot of sense and that's what you should do. :)

Skryker
March 3rd, 2007, 11:53 AM
It's day two of giving them about 1/4 of the Canidae at each meal and Jemma's already starting to chew her paws. :frustrated: Could be just the salt though, so I'm going to wait and see a little longer.


Oh, no! :fingerscr that it's excess road salt from the recent snowfall. Poor Jemma!

Prin
March 3rd, 2007, 12:38 PM
Maybe I should explain the road to here a little more...


Ok, so here's Jemma's diet history:

She was on Wellness when we got her, in 2002, but Wellness had to be special ordered straight from Misouri or some other M state.:D So she went on Lamb and rice Pukanuba with Boo. They both did great on it, but then Jemma started to deteriorate, with ear infections getting worse and worse. So I tried Proplan Sensitive stomachs (more fish based), but then as soon as I opened the bag, I saw "animal digest" so I gave the bag to my dad and then I started searching. And I searched and searched and searched. And then I found Wolf King. I got a sample of that, threw it into the car and the doggies ravaged it. Like ripped up the plastic and everything, trying to get at the food. Meanwhile, there was a whole bag of Laketrout cookies there untouched...

Anyway, for about 2 years, they did GREAT on Wolf King, with the Lamb and Laketrout cookies. Their fur was GREAT and Jemma wasn't scratching at all anywhere. But then Wolf king changed their formula and they both got the splats. And then the Lamb and Laketrout formula changed too and Jemma couldn't eat the cookies anymore either.

So then I posted here on my quest to find a food they could both eat, removing what I KNEW they were allergic to already- for Jemma, no wheat, barley and corn and for Boo, no poultry and not too much flax..

Both went onto EvoRM sometime in the fall, I guess, cold turkey. Boo did great on it right away. Stools firm, energy good, coat ok. Jemma did ok in the beginning and then just went downhill fast. Within 3 or so weeks, she had HUGE dandruff flakes. Her ears were ok, but her body just gave you the itchies to look at it. I gave her the Salmon oil supplement, but it took so much of it and she was drinking so much too as a result, and whenever I stopped, the dandruff came back even worse. So I decided to get her off EvoRM.

Ever since she went on Evo RM, she didn't get any cookies. She got a little bit of real salmon once but couldn't digest it, and some cooked beef, but that was it.

So then around Christmas, she went on BATM. She did really well and her 'ruffs were almost gone. But then she buggered her teeth and had to be on soft food for 2 weeks. I put her on the Evo 95% meat, and her coat just got horrible again.

After the two weeks, she was back on BATM, and has been for about 3 weeks now (or maybe 4...), and her coat is amazing, but the skin underneath is still flakey. Her ears flare up intermittently. She can be fine one day and the next day, her ears are swollen shut.

But is it the food, her thyroid or is it wheat?

If I drop one macaroni on the floor or one piece of bread crust and she hoovers it or I don't realize it and she finds it, she's done. But I can't exactly eliminate wheat from my entire house, can I? I'm not exactly Ms Atkins here...

So that's where I am. Wondering if I should have stayed on BATM longer, wondering if it's the BATM that is keeping her skin flakey, wondering if I'll ever figure this out as long as there's wheat in the house, wondering if it's her thyroid, even though it's not progressive...

So, have I done an elimination diet? Yes. Many, many times. That's allergies 101. I try something, see if she gets better or worse or stays the same, and then move to the next step.

I can't feed raw, or even significantly supplement their food with human food, simply because I don't have the budget for that, and honestly, complicating their diet when I'm stuck figuring things out seems a little counterproductive.

So long story short: Jemma's allergies are complicated, and are even more complicated because of her extreme sensitivity to wheat that sends her body into flare-ups out of nowhere. :shrug:

Hunter's_owner
March 3rd, 2007, 12:45 PM
Oh Prin, it has been quite the ordeal for you haven't it. Hopefuly you will solve the problem soon:grouphug: :fingerscr

Prin
March 3rd, 2007, 12:48 PM
Yep.:o I didn't get into all this food business for fun.:D :o Thanks. :)

rainbow
March 3rd, 2007, 12:55 PM
Have you ever taken her to one of those naturopathic holistic vets?

Prin
March 3rd, 2007, 12:59 PM
Yeah, she went to one before we got her... I wasn't too impressed, to be honest.:o

rainbow
March 3rd, 2007, 01:47 PM
LOL....if she went to one "before" you got her then how could you have an opinion of him/her? :confused:

Prin
March 3rd, 2007, 01:49 PM
She went right before we got her, and so I was given the ear treatment protocol of said vet and I was not impressed...:o

rainbow
March 3rd, 2007, 02:16 PM
I knew you had a reason but I was just curious. :o :D What about the vet TD took Dakotah to?

Skryker
March 3rd, 2007, 03:31 PM
:grouphug: Prin! I didn't realize that Jemma couldn't even eat the lamb and laketrout cookies anymore. :sad: When I realized that they were changing a bit, I hoped it wouldn't cause any problems for your doggies.

meb999
March 3rd, 2007, 03:46 PM
feed them NOTHING mwahhahhahahaha! That'll solve your soft poo problem!!

I voted half and half also...if you want to stick to only canidae, then I would just supplement with fresh protein or canned tuna (or salmon, or sardines, or whatever) to boost the meat levels a bit :shrug:

Prin
March 3rd, 2007, 09:39 PM
Well, we're trying halfzies for a little bit, mainly because I have so much of the other foods left... They really like the Canidae, but it makes them drink way more (maybe it's salty?). I hope they do ok... :fingerscr

hehe meb, wouldn't that just solve everything? No poopy scoopy, probably no drinking either, and they'd just cuddle all day long because they'd have no energy. :laughing: :sad:

Disclaimer: the above statement was absolutely entirely sarcastic. In no way should anybody ever stop feeding their pets for any reason... Well, unless you're fasting them for a few hours because they have explosive diarrhea or something, but even then you should see a vet if you're unsure. Thanks.

gypsy_girl
March 3rd, 2007, 10:24 PM
Yes, Prin I have had that thought too.... Usually in puppyhood:laughing:

vfrohloff
March 5th, 2007, 10:17 AM
I voted for the half and half also. My guys are on half Canidae L&R and half BATM and they're doing great. Benny has a chicken intolerance so that's why we were on Canidae but I found their breath really bad and their skin a bit flaky so that's why I added the BATM. I also didn't like the way low protein in Canidae. It's been about 6 weeks and their breath is much better and their coats are wonderful and no splats. They also seem less obsessed with eating their own poop; they still like it, but aren't as driven about it as they were before. However, my dogs have never had ear problems or skin itchies so I can't say whether or not the Canidae would help that or not. :fingerscr that it all works out for you Prin.

Prin
March 5th, 2007, 06:35 PM
Thanks, vfrohloff, that really helps especially since your dog is so similar to Boo as far as food goes. :)

Prin
March 7th, 2007, 02:08 AM
It's been a few days now, and the only major change so far is the beasties keep on asking for another meal. :frustrated: Whenever we move, Jemma brings us to the bag and then cries a little bit. :frustrated: Too bad! :laughing: :laughing: :evil: