Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Timberwolf Change

Emmalou
February 24th, 2007, 11:14 PM
I have been browsing your forum for a few months now and really like it. A lot of you seem very involved and knowledgeable. I decided it was time to jump in a join the fun!

I started feeding my dog Timberwolf a few months ago. She really likes it and seems to do well on it. I heard though that they have changed processing plants and am a little worried about a change in formula or what effect the manufacturing change will have on the food. Have any of you Timberwolf feeders received any of the new food?

Prin
February 24th, 2007, 11:17 PM
They were using the Diamond plants to make their foods, so I'm guessing after the massive recall, TO decided to jump ship.. Not sure what effect it will have on the food or if there are new developments...

Oh and welcome to the board!! :highfive:

gypsy_girl
February 24th, 2007, 11:41 PM
Welcome! It will be interesting to see if there is a difference. Not sure how many plants can handle that high meat through the extruder!

OntarioGreys
February 25th, 2007, 04:10 AM
Welcome! It will be interesting to see if there is a difference. Not sure how many plants can handle that high meat through the extruder!


Only 2 of their formulas has a somewhat higher meat content the Nutrient dense Lamb and Rice has a protein level suitable for large breed puppies so not really that high a meat content, the Wild & Natural Dry has the highest meat content but they chose for it as the main igredient chicken which is the cheapest of available meat sources.
, and the black forest has a very low meat content as it is meant as a meat mixer for healthy dogs (meaning you need to add meat to it)

Much of their foods would be much the same meat content as Canidae. and other premium foods


Any food that contains grains (wheat, corn, rice, barley , millet, oats etc) can have potentially high myotoxin level, whether it is at the time of processing or even sitting at your house during hot humid weather, all grains with contain some molds, a certain percent is deemed acceptable in human foods, slightly higher in pets food, and considerably higher for livestock feed, when light or heat and humidity hits the existing mold it starts to multiply, even heat from processing will not kill these molds, so what happened at Diamond could occur in any food that contains grains.

rainbow
February 25th, 2007, 02:07 PM
Good luck trying to find out who manufactures Timberwolf's food cuz they sure won't tell you. I read on another forum that someone (who owns a pet store) "thinks" it might be made at the same plant as Solid Gold because the packaging and coding system is the same. :shrug:

Prin
February 25th, 2007, 02:07 PM
Sneaky, sneaky. :rolleyes:

rainbow
February 25th, 2007, 03:28 PM
I just emailed Solid Gold to see if they'll confirm it. ;)

OntarioGreys
February 25th, 2007, 05:53 PM
Good luck trying to find out who manufactures Timberwolf's food cuz they sure won't tell you. I read on another forum that someone (who owns a pet store) "thinks" it might be made at the same plant as Solid Gold because the packaging and coding system is the same. :shrug:


Gotta really wonder if it is such a big secret, that they do not want anyone to know,may be went really downhill in the choice of plants like Doane Pet Care :eek: :p


Anyway regardless of which plant is producing the public should have a right to know when they inquire, espcially will all the aflatoxins and mytoxin incidences that have occured over the last number of years
as if a bad shipment of grain arrives it can used inseveral different brands and has in th past not only at Diamond foods

In 1995, Nature’s Recipe pulled thousands of tons of dog food off the shelf after consumers complained that their dogs were vomiting and losing their appetite. Nature’s Recipe’s loss amounted to $20 million. The problem was a fungus that produced vomitoxin (an aflatoxin or “mycotoxin,” a toxic substance produced by mold) contaminating the wheat. In 1999, another fungal toxin triggered the recall of dry dog food made by Doane Pet Care at one of its plants, including Ol’ Roy (Wal-Mart’s brand) and 53 other brands. This time, the toxin killed 25 dogs
The number of dogs killed dos not reflect all,it only reflects those who owners where willing to do a necroscopy a the time and does not include those who died later of liver failure due to the toxins

depriving owners of knowing where a food is made in te event of such an incident, prevents them from taking precautions such as preparing a homemade diet or getting their dog to a vet ifcommon symptoms exist for immediate treatment to prevent further liver damage until they hear and learn what foods and what lot numbers are affected

rainbow
February 25th, 2007, 06:55 PM
I agree wholeheartedly that TO should be upfront and tell the public where their food is manufactured. I think they are the only pet food company that will not disclose the information. :mad: I would really like to know what their reason for this is. :confused:

rainbow
February 26th, 2007, 05:57 PM
I received an answer from Solid Gold:


Thank you for your inquiry,

Timberwolf organics and Solid Gold are not made at the same manufacturing facility. I do not know who is now manufacturing Timberwolf Organics at this time.

Best regards,

Solid Gold


I guess the mystery will remain a secret. :rolleyes:

Prin
February 26th, 2007, 05:59 PM
Rainbow have you ever called TO and gotten a person? Or do they always have to call you back?

rainbow
February 26th, 2007, 07:20 PM
I've never called as I read too many comments saying that you get nowhere with them. :shrug: Did you try?

Goldens4Ever
February 27th, 2007, 04:59 PM
.........Any food that contains grains (wheat, corn, rice, barley , millet, oats etc) can have potentially high myotoxin level, whether it is at the time of processing or even sitting at your house during hot humid weather, all grains with contain some molds, a certain percent is deemed acceptable in human foods, slightly higher in pets food, and considerably higher for livestock feed, when light or heat and humidity hits the existing mold it starts to multiply, even heat from processing will not kill these molds, so what happened at Diamond could occur in any food that contains grains.

I did not know that. VERY INTERESTING!!! I will certainly remember that. I'm glad that my two are on a grain-free formula (TO Ocean Blue). So, given what you just stated, it's likely that the grains in some of their kibble also contain myotoxins?

Goldens4Ever
February 27th, 2007, 05:05 PM
.......I think they are the only pet food company that will not disclose the information.......

WEIRD! That is scary. :eek: Are they afraid that they'll loose business by disclosing where it's produced? I'm curious now, so I'm going to see if I can get an answer from them. I also want to know! :yell:

So far, I've always been able to recieve information from the other companies that I've made numerous inquiries to (Solid Gold & DVP Natural Balance). Hopefully I'll have just as good as results with TO. :fingerscr

rainbow
February 27th, 2007, 06:38 PM
At one time TO was manufactured at one of the Diamond plants and when Diamond had their troubles they tried to hide the fact. They have since changed to a different manufacturer but still will not disclose information. :rolleyes: I have heard of numerous people trying to email them to find but it's still a mystery. :shrug:

Good luck and please let us know if you find out. :fingerscr

OntarioGreys
February 27th, 2007, 06:59 PM
I did not know that. VERY INTERESTING!!! I will certainly remember that. I'm glad that my two are on a grain-free formula (TO Ocean Blue). So, given what you just stated, it's likely that the grains in some of their kibble also contain myotoxins?

myotoxins I spelt wrong should have been mycotoxins

the form that occured in diamonds foods was alfatoxin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aflatoxin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycotoxin

Even some levels can be found in meat(livestock) much is filtered out by the liver but grains based foods tend to be worse and act as sugar source to feed molds so they can grow in summer foods need to kept on a cool dark place with low humidity to prevent the molds from growing to toxic proportion

The last link mentions binding agents

one type of binding agent is Montmorillonite(bentonite) Clay which Natures Variety adds to their pet foods http://naturesvariety.com/content.lasso?r=1719117&page=1404&-session=naturesvariety:488BA2F6058b329F48OlQXEA9EC B

I think in time we will see this added to more and more pet foods as a safety precaution but more worrying may be that the FDA will then allow grains with higher levels of mycotoxins to be used in pet foods.

Animal Management
If unacceptable mycotoxin levels occur, removal of the contaminated feed is preferable. While it is often not possible to completely replace the ration, particularly the forage ingredients, obviously, moldy feeds should be removed. Acidic diets may intensify the effects of mycotoxins and should be avoided in these situations. Increasing nutrients such as protein, energy (fats and carbohydrates), and vitamins in the diet may also be advisable. The addition of antioxidants to the animal assists in dealing with the effects of mycotoxins.
The possible use of inorganic binders (mineral clays) to bind mycotoxins, and prevent them from being absorbed by the animal's gut, has received a lot of research attention recently. These clay products (which include zeolites, bentonite, bleaching clays from refining of canola oil, and hydrated sodium calcium aluminosilicates [HSCAS]) have been shown to change the responses of rats to zearalenone and T-2 toxin. However, it should be clearly understood that binding of some mycotoxins may be weak or nonexistent and that clay products differ in their ability to bind mycotoxins. While one HSCAS product called NovaSil has been shown to bind aflatoxin protecting animals against aflatoxicosis, under FDA regulations these clay products cannot be sold as mycotoxin binders. Nonetheless, many clay products are GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) and are used as anticaking or free-flow additives for feeds.


Dietary clays contain about 60 different minerals so therefore sold as a mineral supplement, so if added to petfoods will likely be labeled and referred to as such rather than as an additive to protect against mycotoxic illness

Prin
February 27th, 2007, 07:38 PM
Rainbow, I never got anywhere with them, neither by email nor by leaving messages on their machine.....:rolleyes:

rainbow
February 27th, 2007, 10:48 PM
Yeah, I hear ya. ;) :frustrated: :rolleyes: :mad:

Emmalou
February 27th, 2007, 11:17 PM
Interesting...I will let you all know if I see any difference. I wonder why they will not disclose.

Goldens4Ever
March 1st, 2007, 07:53 PM
OntarioGreys-
Thanks for the great info.

I e-mailed TO two days ago with my inquiry about where their foods are produced. No response yet. Interestingly, I've always recieved a response from them concerning other questions.......:confused: I really want to know! They will be receiving a call from me as well.

rainbow
March 1st, 2007, 07:59 PM
Good luck.....I really hope you get an answer. :fingerscr :fingerscr Let us know how you make out. :)

Prin
March 1st, 2007, 08:39 PM
Well, it's not Doane Pet care... I called them and asked and they had never heard of TO.. :highfive:

rainbow
March 1st, 2007, 10:48 PM
Who is Doane Pet Care? :confused:

Prin
March 1st, 2007, 10:50 PM
The GIANT food company that makes Ol' Roy and all the walmart brands, along with 35 other "mystery" private brands.;)

rainbow
March 1st, 2007, 10:55 PM
No wonder I didn't know them :rolleyes: .....I don't go near that crap. :eek: :yuck:

Prin
March 1st, 2007, 11:09 PM
No wonder I didn't know them :rolleyes: .....I don't go near that crap. :eek: :yuck:

lol Which is why I called them to make sure they aren't making TO. :D

klytamnestra
March 3rd, 2007, 12:28 PM
try contacting Chris Porch, he has been quite responsive and posts actively on another forum.

christopher.porch@timberwolforganics.com

407-802-7865.

rainbow
March 3rd, 2007, 12:53 PM
I just sent an email. Hopefully he is better at answering than the owner, Mark.

Prin
March 3rd, 2007, 12:54 PM
Cool! Thank you for that! :)

rainbow
March 3rd, 2007, 02:03 PM
One can only hope for a reply. :fingerscr :rolleyes:

rainbow
March 3rd, 2007, 02:39 PM
I just got a reply from Chris at TO !!! He won't disclose the big secret either :rolleyes: but I was impressed with the fast reply. :D .....

Thanks for your interest in the Timberwolf Organics line of pet foods.

Because of the nature of our business, the manufacturer of our pet food products is proprietary information. Although I can't tell you where it is produced, it is true our food is no longer produced at the Diamond facility, and I can tell you that it is produced in the USA.

Thanks for your question!

Chris Porch
Customer Support
Timberwolf Organics
407-802-7865
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

rainbow
March 3rd, 2007, 02:45 PM
I just sent him another email asking why they consider it "proprietary information" when all the other premium/holistic companies have no problem with divulging the info. :evil:

Prin
March 3rd, 2007, 02:48 PM
If he replies, can you just make him describe the facility? Something like, "Can you please assure me that the facility is of the highest standard and not a rendering facility or a facility that manufactures low quality dog food for other companies?"

gypsy_girl
March 3rd, 2007, 03:14 PM
Yes, ask him what certifications the plant has organic or otherwise, is it inspected, do they test the ingredients upon arrival... Anything would be great, other than no..... I am a rebellious child, dislike the word no we won't tell you!

rainbow
March 3rd, 2007, 03:19 PM
LOL you guys......one step at a time. :evil:

rainbow
March 4th, 2007, 06:59 PM
I received another typical reply:

It is our company policy to keep this informations proprietary. In the interest of keeping this information secure from competitors, we cannot release it. I apologize for any inconvienience this may cause you.

Thanks,

Chris Porch


I emailed him again asking the above questions and also asked if the lines they use are dedicated.

Prin
March 4th, 2007, 07:10 PM
sigh. :sad: My corporate response:
In the interest of the consumer, the information hidden proves to be more of an obstacle than an attraction. Consumers turn to brands they can trust, brands who don't seem to have something to hide, even if their product might be of lesser quality.

:sad:

rainbow
March 4th, 2007, 07:43 PM
LOL...can I have permission to use your "corporate response" if needed after my next reply?

mummummum
March 4th, 2007, 07:52 PM
The funny thing is...I think TO (Ocean Blue anyway) has changed it's formula. I bought it the nanosecond it arrived in Toronto and recall being overwhelmed by the smell of cinnamon, to the point where I was concerned it would be too much for the dawgs. I noted that the bags I bought last month and this month no longer have that powerful spice odour. Now I wish I had saved our first bag to see if the ingredients have changed or their order.

stergeR
March 4th, 2007, 08:39 PM
:sorry: if i m..:offtopic:
the batch to my country has worms recently! Batches with expiry date - Nov'07 and Jan'08. Anyone met this problem before? i m still wondering why..... :yell:

Prin
March 4th, 2007, 10:02 PM
Mum, that's the beauty of meb's dog food ingredient thread. We have the old ingredients-- post 10 here: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=28957

Rainbow, feel free! :)

mummummum
March 4th, 2007, 10:04 PM
If he replies, can you just make him describe the facility? Something like, "Can you please assure me that the facility is of the highest standard and not a rendering facility or a facility that manufactures low quality dog food for other companies?"

I took this from the TO faq's page (the question was about BSE), the emboldening is mine.

"In January of 2002 our plant has discontinued the inclusion of all beef, beef by products and beef fats in all formulas produced by the plant.

The meat proteins or animal products incorporated in the formulas manufactured are acquired from species specific processing plants. These species are:

1. Chicken 2. Turkey 3. Lamb from New Zealand or Australia 4. Venison from New Zealand or Australia 5. Various Fish 6. Pork 7. Chicken Fats 8. Fish Oils

Also, our plant is one of the few plants that is APHIS (Agricultural Plant Health Inspection Service) certified or the newer tougher Category III level certified. APHIS helps manufacturing plants meet all certification requirements for export for example, to the EC which is extremely difficult because of their stringent requirements of certification of all ingredients.

Therefore, there is no possibility of any beef tissue or fats included in, by design or by contamination, any products manufactured by our pet food plant."

rainbow
March 4th, 2007, 10:08 PM
:sorry: if i m..:offtopic:
the batch to my country has worms recently! Batches with expiry date - Nov'07 and Jan'08. Anyone met this problem before? i m still wondering why..... :yell:

Interesting. What formula?

mummummum
March 4th, 2007, 10:09 PM
:sorry: if i m..:offtopic:
the batch to my country has worms recently! Batches with expiry date - Nov'07 and Jan'08. Anyone met this problem before? i m still wondering why..... :yell:

Do you buy yours in a store or by special order ? :eek: The bags I just picked up last weekend are Feb 2008 and the one I've opened is fine.

Prin
March 4th, 2007, 10:16 PM
mum, it might not have BEEF but that doesn't mean there aren't any dogs or cats or roadkill...

The meat proteins or animal products incorporated in the formulas manufactured are acquired from species specific processing plants. These species are:
They're acquired from specific plants, but are they processed in specific plants? Is each formula of their food made in a meat-specific plant? I doubt it.

rainbow
March 4th, 2007, 10:17 PM
The funny thing is...I think TO (Ocean Blue anyway) has changed it's formula. I bought it the nanosecond it arrived in Toronto and recall being overwhelmed by the smell of cinnamon, to the point where I was concerned it would be too much for the dawgs. I noted that the bags I bought last month and this month no longer have that powerful spice odour. Now I wish I had saved our first bag to see if the ingredients have changed or their order.

I bought a bag of TO Wild and Natural (protein 36%) to add to the Innova regular I've been feeding. There's no cinnamon smell to it at all but Logan sure gets more excited when I open the bag as compared to the Innova.

When I fed TO before I noticed the SW Chicken & Herb had a very strong smell....more like allspice. The Dakota Bison and Wilderness Elk did too but not quite as strong as the SW Chicken & Herb. So, actually, I thought there was something wrong with the Wild & Natural because I was expecting a spicy smell. But, the dogs have been just fine with it. :shrug:

rainbow
March 4th, 2007, 10:19 PM
mum, it might not have BEEF but that doesn't mean there aren't any dogs or cats or roadkill...


They're acquired from specific plants, but are they processed in specific plants? Is each formula of their food made in a meat-specific plant? I doubt it.

Prin, I think you should email them. ;)

mummummum
March 4th, 2007, 10:20 PM
Well, there you go (thanks Prin !). A comparison shows they have added amaranth and taken out copper proteinate and selenium proteinate. The Omega3 drops from 1.4 to 1.3 and calcium has increased from 1,5 to 1.75. Doesn't explain the diminished cinnamon smell though and why do they list taurine twice?

Prin
March 4th, 2007, 10:24 PM
lol because they're not perfect? :D Alright, rainbow. I'll email 'em... I didn't want to get blacklisted again, but I'll do it. :sad: :D

Prin
March 4th, 2007, 10:29 PM
Done! A concern for me is that if poultry is used in another food manufactured with the same equipment, then Boo might have serious health consequences, so I'd like to know what their lines are like, whether they're shared with other companies, etc... ;)

mummummum
March 4th, 2007, 10:31 PM
They're acquired from specific plants, but are they processed in specific plants? Is each formula of their food made in a meat-specific plant? I doubt it.

"The meat proteins or animal products incorporated in the formulas manufactured are acquired from species specific processing plants."

Isn't a "species specific processing plant" just that ?

stergeR
March 4th, 2007, 10:36 PM
Do you buy yours in a store or by special order ? :eek: The bags I just picked up last weekend are Feb 2008 and the one I've opened is fine.

i bought mine from stores. A couple of my forum mates experienced the scene of worms wriggling their way through those dark brown looked-oxidized-kibble as well. I couldn't find any pack with expiry date FEb 2008. Will keep a look out on that date.

rainbow
March 4th, 2007, 10:37 PM
Sounds like it to me. :shrug:

rainbow
March 4th, 2007, 10:38 PM
lol because they're not perfect? :D Alright, rainbow. I'll email 'em... I didn't want to get blacklisted again, but I'll do it. :sad: :D

I thought you were just blacklisted at Solid Gold? :D

rainbow
March 4th, 2007, 10:39 PM
Done! A concern for me is that if poultry is used in another food manufactured with the same equipment, then Boo might have serious health consequences, so I'd like to know what their lines are like, whether they're shared with other companies, etc... ;)


In my last email I asked them if they had dedicated lines.

mummummum
March 4th, 2007, 10:48 PM
I've just emailed the USDA. If Timberwolf claims to have AHIS in their plant then one would think that under "Access to Information", the USDA would have to confirm the name of the manufacturing plant. We'll see !

rainbow
March 4th, 2007, 10:56 PM
I've just emailed the USDA. If Timberwolf claims to have AHIS in their plant then one would think that under "Access to Information", the USDA would have to confirm the name of the manufacturing plant. We'll see !

Does the States have the same "Access to Information" laws that we do? If so, that just might work. :fingerscr

Prin
March 4th, 2007, 11:15 PM
"The meat proteins or animal products incorporated in the formulas manufactured are acquired from species specific processing plants."

Isn't a "species specific processing plant" just that ?

Yeah, if the food has venison in it, then the venison will come from a venison factory. Sure. But then where does the venison go? If they make Ol' Roy with dogs and cats using certain equipment, then shut them down, reload the mixers with TO ingredients, it's hardly species specific anymore. :shrug: But we'll just have to see if either rainbow or I get a response...

Good luck with the USDA though. I hope they can help out.:highfive:

mummummum
March 4th, 2007, 11:56 PM
i bought mine from stores. A couple of my forum mates experienced the scene of worms wriggling their way through those dark brown looked-oxidized-kibble as well. I couldn't find any pack with expiry date FEb 2008. Will keep a look out on that date.

What formula of TO are you feeding ? What has your store done for you ? Are they going to get feedback from TO as to why that shipment was infested ?

mummummum
March 5th, 2007, 12:05 AM
Yeah, if the food has venison in it, then the venison will come from a venison factory. Sure. But then where does the venison go? If they make Ol' Roy with dogs and cats using certain equipment, then shut them down, reload the mixers with TO ingredients, it's hardly species specific anymore. :shrug: But we'll just have to see if either rainbow or I get a response...

Good luck with the USDA though. I hope they can help out.:highfive:

Ahhh... the "joys" of semantics. :o I would refer to that as a manufacturing plant (where the ingredients are assembled/ extrusion takes place etc etc )rather than a processing plant where I see the rendering and meat-to-meal taking place. But, hey what do I know about kibble ?

The bottom line is a concern about mixing on a single line! And hopefully one or all of us will get an answer.

Prin
March 5th, 2007, 12:08 AM
lol to me kibble is all processing... Whether it's being rendered or being mixed... But yeah, it's probably manufacturing when the meals get to wherever TO assembles it's food...

OntarioGreys
March 5th, 2007, 01:51 AM
i bought mine from stores. A couple of my forum mates experienced the scene of worms wriggling their way through those dark brown looked-oxidized-kibble as well. I couldn't find any pack with expiry date FEb 2008. Will keep a look out on that date.

:sick: :yuck: That is gross Live protein!!!

stergeR
March 5th, 2007, 02:23 AM
What formula of TO are you feeding ? What has your store done for you ? Are they going to get feedback from TO as to why that shipment was infested ?

TO Lamb and apples.
They did an exchange with me but the second pack of TO lamb and apple is infested with worms as well.. Therefore they just do a refund and claimed that they will feedback those infested packs to their supplier. I reckon that currently its only my country that has this infested shipment problem. And from what i know from TO regulars, its not the first time as well.. :shrug: Thinking to change brand of kibble again if this problem persist.. Its too traumatizing!

OntarioGreys
March 5th, 2007, 10:02 AM
Do they look like this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/38/Mealworms_in_plastic_container_of_bran.jpg/180px-Mealworms_in_plastic_container_of_bran.jpg


Of the many insects found in stored grain and in milled cereal products, the mealworms* are the most easily recognized. These straw-like beetle larvae resemble wireworms. When full grown, they are about an inch long. hey are found in all parts of the world and have long been familiar because of their usefulness as food for birds, reptiles, fish, and small mammals, as well as for their habit of breeding in grain and milled cereals. It is believed that both species of mealworms found in the United States have been introduced from Europe or Asia.
Damage: The mealworms are primarily scavengers and prefer to feed on decaying grain or milled cereals that are damp and in poor condition. However, they will devour meal, flour, bran, grain, coarse cereals, bread, crackers, mill sweepings, meat scraps, feathers, the bodies of dead insects, and similar materials. Mealworms prefer dark, damp places, such as in accumulations of grain in neglected corners of mills, under bags of feed in warehouses and feed stores, in bins containing damp grain, or in the litter of chicken houses and bird houses where feathers and refuse grain are mixed with excrement. They also occur in and around bumble bee nests. In Vermont, they are often found in hay chaff and litter in barns, and damp pet food and bird seed in homes. When full grown, mealworms wander about, probably in search of a place to pupate and transform into beetles. Large numbers frequently wander into strange places and cause more trouble by their mere presence than by the actual damage they do in feeding. Description: The adults are black, darkling beetles about 3/4 to 1 inch long. The small, white eggs are laid singly or in small clusters, in the material in which the insects are living. The larvae of mealworms are smooth, shiny-bodied, uniformly brown to yellow "worms" closely resembling wireworms. When fully grown, the larvae are 1 to 1 2 inches long. The pupae are 2 to 3/4 inch long. When first formed, they are white, but gradually change to a yellowish brown.

Control: Removal of the food source and cleaning normally control infestations in the home. Prevent mealworm infestation by periodically cleaning up accumulations of grain, meal, flour, sweepings, and refuse in mills, warehouses, granaries, and elevators, or under loading docks or warehouse floors through which such products sift. Such sanitation is normally sufficient for control of mealworms on the farm. Spraying wooden floors and walls of empty granaries and warehouses can help prevent mealworm infestations.



For it to only occur in TO foods, would have to have occured where they made it, otherwise all the other food imported there would be infested if the adults beetle were some how getting into the bags and laying eggs

Maybe the reason their location is being kept secret is for damage control because of reported bags of food of possibly other brands being produced in the same location are containing worms. :shrug:

rainbow
March 5th, 2007, 12:44 PM
I sure hope we can get to the bottom of the mystery :rolleyes: location soon. :fingerscr

mummummum
March 5th, 2007, 01:38 PM
For it to only occur in TO foods, would have to have occured where they made it, otherwise all the other food imported there would be infested if the adults beetle were some how getting into the bags and laying eggs

Maybe the reason their location is being kept secret is for damage control because of reported bags of food of possibly other brands being produced in the same location are containing worms. :shrug:

Or given that stergeR is in Singapore, it could have been cross-infestation from an unrelated container on the cargo ship.

OntarioGreys
March 5th, 2007, 10:02 PM
Or given that stergeR is in Singapore, it could have been cross-infestation from an unrelated container on the cargo ship.
THis is why I specifically stated imported foods, the containers would be packed for the distributor in Singapore so would have had a variety of dog foods from NA in the same container, so TO should not be the only food affected if this was the case.

Prin
March 5th, 2007, 10:04 PM
But StergeR also said it wasn't the first time, right? :o

stergeR
March 6th, 2007, 01:26 AM
yeah, according to those TO regulars as well as what the pet shop that claims..this is definitely NOT the first time.
I have check out with fellow pet owners in my country and so far at this moment, only TO has this worms infestation problem. As they have been comparing between brands.
And what's more? Its not only the canine formula that has worms.. :eek: feline formula has it too! Claimed by one who has their Serengeti kibble weeks ago. :sick:

OntarioGreys
March 6th, 2007, 02:15 AM
I find this part of the return policy very interesting, and unusual

Opened or partially used products are non returnable unless a problem exists with the quality of the product. As we do not specifically formulate for taste, smell, consistency, color or other factors unrelated to healthy nutrition, these factors shall not be considered just cause for return of opened or partially used products.

If you are following a a specific recipe, with same percentage of ingredients each time than there should be consistency from one bag to another, at least I would think :shrug:


and
I have never seen a limited guarantee on dog food before :confused:

Canidae return policy
If you are not completely satisfied with any of our products, please return the unused portion with the receipt to the place of purchase for a complete refund or replacement.

wellness return policy
We guarantee that your dog or cat will love your Wellness Pet Food selection or your money back. If for any reason you are dissatisfied, simply return the original package with the unused portion to your point of purchase for a full refund

EVO Return policy (from the bag)
Because we think you will agree that Innova EVO is the healthiest pet food in the world, we offer an unconditional satisfaction guarantee

Nature's Variety policy
Our natural, nutritious products are produced with integrity and care for the health of your companion animal. All of our products are 100% Satisfaction Guaranteed.


Pinnacle dog food
100% satisfaction
guaranteed!
All Pinnacle brand pet foods come with our
guarantee that you and your dog will both be
completely satisfied. If for any reason, we do not
meet your expectations, just return the unused
portion to the place of purchase for a full
refund or exchange.

Royal Canin
Should you not be 100% satisfied with the performance of our products, we will gladly replace the product or refund your purchase price. Simply save the unused portion, along with your purchase receipt and contact us at 800-592-6687 or return the product to your local retailer or veterinary clinic.

Goldens4Ever
March 6th, 2007, 12:58 PM
Uuuummmmm....I'm sick to my stomach now. Why can't these supposed 'high quality' dog food companies keep consistently producing a good product? Why do they try to cut corners when it means loss of business from consumers? It doesn't make sense!!!

So, if the kibble doesn't have worms in it, than that means it's OK or should it be thrown out? Does that mean that their grain-free Ocean Blue is OK?

mafiaprincess
March 6th, 2007, 01:15 PM
Even iams was willing to refund my purchase price and they didn't want the kibble back.. My dog didn't want to eat it, that was enough for them.

mummummum
March 6th, 2007, 02:08 PM
THis is why I specifically stated imported foods, the containers would be packed for the distributor in Singapore so would have had a variety of dog foods from NA in the same container, so TO should not be the only food affected if this was the case.

Not meaning to be argumentative but, I can't agree. It would depend on the how the Timberwolf order was shipped, whether the entire order was pallet-wrapped or single-crated and what it came into contact with on the loading docks, how and in what it was ground-shipped etc. For all we know it was a small order that came by cargo plane with a crate load of wild rice from Saskatchewan.:o

Anywho I'll keep on with my research on the "Yukon Nutritional Company" to see if I can trace where Timberwolf is manufactured.

rainbow
March 6th, 2007, 02:33 PM
Opened or partially used products are non returnable unless a problem exists with the quality of the product. As we do not specifically formulate for taste, smell, consistency, color or other factors unrelated to healthy nutrition, these factors shall not be considered just cause for return of opened or partially used products.

Well, that totally just sucks. :mad: All part and parcel of their crappy customer service, I guess. :rolleyes: :mad:

rainbow
March 6th, 2007, 02:36 PM
So, if the kibble doesn't have worms in it, than that means it's OK or should it be thrown out? Does that mean that their grain-free Ocean Blue is OK?


If it doesn't have worms in it, I wouldn't throw it out. We still don't know for sure how the worms got there. If they are mealworms I don't think it matters if it's grain-free or not.

rainbow
March 6th, 2007, 02:48 PM
Anywho I'll keep on with my research on the "Yukon Nutritional Company" to see if I can trace where Timberwolf is manufactured.

I totally forgot that that was the original name. :o I tried to find a website for them (googled "Yukon Nutritional Company") but couldn't. I did find this comment from http://www.eskie.net/dog/food/ interesting though.....

Timberwolf Organics Timberwolf brand of foods from Yukon Nutritional Company. There is some interesting information on different qualities of ingredients on their site, but they also don't list enough details on their own foods as of yet. Worth a look for their comments on ingredient quality though!

Goldens4Ever
March 7th, 2007, 08:00 PM
I received a response from Chris Porch @ Timberwolf Organics concerning where their foods are produced. I am undecided about what to think. If the facility is so high-end, why not state the facility then? Could it be the same facility that produces Natura (California Natural, Innova, HealthWise) or Champion (Acana & Orijen) pet foods??

Thanks for your question!

Our products are produced in a high end facility which has a long history in the manufacturing of high quality feeds for companion animals. It has earned itself a reputation for producing several other well known natural pet foods in the industry, however this information is proprietary in nature and we are therefore unable to release this information.

Before any product enters our facility, before any truck is unloaded, inspection is made and random samples are taken. These samples are then taken to the facilities laboratory for screening, testing and analysis. The range of tests will also include proximate, aflatoxins, vomitoxins, peroxide values, microbial, temperature amongst others.

Our facility also has regular inspections by the USDA and APHIS. The plant is a member of the Pet Food Institute and as such is continuously updated on all regulation changes and is notified immediately of any outbreaks which would affect production so that any precautions or stoppages could be made.

All poultry based meals and frozen poultry are supplied and received only only from facilities process poultry and no other meats. These facilities are USDA/APHIS approved facilities. The poultry included in our formulas are all hormone and steroid free and contain human grade chicken fed on real feed with no waste included.

Fish oils are received only from suppliers that are USDA/APHIS/NMFS approved. Our fish oils are naturally preserved by the supplier.

Our facility have built a close relationship with all their suppliers conducting long term research and development to be at the top of their profession and the industry. Between them they have years of experience with which they are able to bring to the table the finest in companion animal food production.

Prin
March 8th, 2007, 12:09 AM
Two things caught my eye:
The poultry included in our formulas are all hormone and steroid free and contain human grade chicken fed on real feed with no waste included.
It contains human grade chicken, but not ONLY human grade chicken? And hormone and steroid free after testing or because they aren't given steroids or hormones?

Fish oils are received only from suppliers that are USDA/APHIS/NMFS approved. Our fish oils are naturally preserved by the supplierThis I found funny because yesterday, when I was looking up the Yukon Nutritional Company, there was one study that included pharmaceutical grade salmon oil supplied by the YNC... So if they make their own, then why do they have suppliers of the oils?

(not meant to imply anything, it's just confusing)

Oh and I didn't get any reply yet...

TeriM
March 8th, 2007, 12:18 AM
I personally don't have an issue with the proprietary information. There are so many other issues about dog food that this seems like a minor item to me (just my opinion). The whole dogs journal posted this a while back. I have confidence that if they endorse a product then it is manufactured reputably.

As with the canned food review we published in December, we tried something new with this installment of our dry food review. We asked most (we missed three) of the companies on our past “Top Food” lists to provide information about their manufacturing operations and ingredients.

First, we asked them to tell us where their foods are made, and we asked them whether they disclose this information to their consumers. As we discussed in “Made in a Secret Location” (January 2003), most pet food companies don’t like revealing anything about their manufacturing operations.

We also asked them to provide us with documentation to substantiate any special claims they make about their ingredients. If they say they use organic ingredients, we wanted to see organic certification documents. If they hint that they use “human grade” ingredients (we’ll discuss that in a second), we asked to see USDA certificates."

Their annual Top 10 lists are released in Dec (canned) and Feb (dry) of each year...

They also mentioned (in 2003) that rotating between 3 or 4 top quality foods is better than sticking with just one food for all of your dog's life.

Goldens4Ever
March 8th, 2007, 12:41 AM
Two things caught my eye:

It contains human grade chicken, but not ONLY human grade chicken? And hormone and steroid free after testing or because they aren't given steroids or hormones?

This I found funny because yesterday, when I was looking up the Yukon Nutritional Company, there was one study that included pharmaceutical grade salmon oil supplied by the YNC... So if they make their own, then why do they have suppliers of the oils?

(not meant to imply anything, it's just confusing)

Oh and I didn't get any reply yet...

:shrug: I don't know what to think. It doesn't make sense. :shrug:

The worm infestation, whether it is derived from the meat meal or grains, is alarming to me. :yuck: I read the other posts about TO's imported food, but still, the fact that these occurences are only with TO's products doesn't rest well with me. :sad:

I would just freak if I saw a bunch of worms wriggling around in their bag of food, because I'd probably feel them on my hands before I saw it, as I just dig the measuring cup in & get the food without looking at it. :yell: :eek: Aspen has a little bit of the Lamb, Barley & Apple left & since I saw that picture & read about this, I make a point of looking at it every single time now before I dig my hand in there. :laughing: :fingerscr

Prin
March 8th, 2007, 12:46 AM
Yeah, but there's a difference between shipping it to Canada and shipping it halfway around the world too.. Right?

TeriM
March 8th, 2007, 01:01 AM
I agree. I would be extremely concerned to hear about an outbreak here but am not that worried about the whole Singapore thing. That is a long way to ship and many things could happen to have caused it.

BTW .. I was speaking with my local store and asked them about TO return policy and she said no problems. I told her Riley had a reaction to the Wild & Natural and she told me to go ahead and bring it back because the company just gives them a refund.

Goldens4Ever
March 8th, 2007, 01:05 AM
........BTW .. I was speaking with my local store and asked them about TO return policy and she said no problems. I told her Riley had a reaction to the Wild & Natural and she told me to go ahead and bring it back because the company just gives them a refund.

Same as ours. It doesn't matter how empty the bag is or the reason for the return. If we are unsatisfied with TO's foods, we can return it for a full refund. :thumbs up

Bentley'sMom
March 8th, 2007, 07:34 PM
I've been feeding my 6 year old golden TO Wild and Natural for a month with great results: less itchy and no hot spots.

This thread about TO quality control and manufacturing secrecy got me curious enough to do some internet searching. I found a TO job posting on the Orlando Craig's List dated 2007-02-27 for the position of Purchasing and Inventory Control Analyst. It makes for interesting reading; sounds like assessing supply and demand must be a challenge for them right now.

Also, one of the listed job responsibilities is to "evaluate suppliers' manufacturing process".

TO seems to offer great formulas. I hope its customer service continues to improve as it has been. I just wish there was more openness in the manufacturing process.

Goldens4Ever
March 8th, 2007, 07:52 PM
........sounds like assessing supply and demand must be a challenge for them right now........

Yes, it is. I was having an extremely difficult time getting my hands on their Ocean Blue formula, as the place where I buy it from is completely out because that formula is on back order & they have no idea when they're getting more in. I spoke with TO about this & they stated the demand for that particular formula exceeded their future product projections, but they are making steps to ensure that they will always be able to have enough product to meet the demand. I guess that's why they're having to add that position that you mentioned (Purchasing & Inventory Control Analyst). It will be that person's job to accurately predict how much food they need to produce. :fingerscr

Luckily, I found a secret place online to buy 2 big bags! ;)

stergeR
March 9th, 2007, 02:42 AM
I agree. I would be extremely concerned to hear about an outbreak here but am not that worried about the whole Singapore thing. That is a long way to ship and many things could happen to have caused it.

BTW .. I was speaking with my local store and asked them about TO return policy and she said no problems. I told her Riley had a reaction to the Wild & Natural and she told me to go ahead and bring it back because the company just gives them a refund.

yup, totally agree with that. As Singapore is kind of far from your side. It already take hours for me to reach US or even Europe by air and not forgetting that those food were travelled by sea. :sad:
by the way, does this sentence, "MANUFACTURE IN USA" printed on the back of the packaging on your side?

rainbow
March 11th, 2007, 07:56 PM
Hee hee....it looks like Chris Porch has a standard form letter to send out. :rolleyes: Here's my reply.....



Our products are produced in a high end facility which has a long history in the manufacturing of high quality feeds for companion animals. It has earned itself a reputation for producing several other well known natural pet foods in the industry, however this information is proprietary in nature and we are therefore unable to release this information.


Before any product enters our facility, before any truck is unloaded, inspection is made and random samples are taken. These samples are then taken to the facilities laboratory for screening, testing and analysis. The range of tests will also include proximate, aflatoxins, vomitoxins, peroxide values, microbial, temperature amongst others.


Our facility also has regular inspections by the USDA and APHIS. The plant is a member of the Pet Food Institute and as such is continuously updated on all regulation changes and is notified immediately of any outbreaks which would affect production so that any precautions or stoppages could be made.


All poultry based meals and frozen poultry are supplied and received only only from facilities process poultry and no other meats. These facilities are USDA/APHIS approved facilities. The poultry included in our formulas are all hormone and steroid free and contain human grade chicken fed on real feed with no waste included.


Fish oils are received only from suppliers that are USDA/APHIS/NMFS approved. Our fish oils are naturally preserved by the supplier.


Our facility have built a close relationship with all their suppliers conducting long term research and development to be at the top of their profession and the industry. Between them they have years of experience with which they are able to bring to the table the finest in companion animal food production.


Chris Porch
Customer Support
Timberwolf Organics Inc.
P.407-802-7865
www.timberwolforganics.com

Mocha's mum
March 11th, 2007, 10:32 PM
Jeez, why are these guys so secretive?? Sounds a little fishy to me (no pun intended)...:shrug:

Goldens4Ever
March 11th, 2007, 10:58 PM
Rainbow-

Oh my goodness....:sad: Here I thought he took time typing that response, rather then it being a general, pre-typed response that's sent out to anyone with the same question. That's too bad. I wonder of other high-end companies would tell us where theirs are manufactured...:confused:

Prin
March 12th, 2007, 02:33 AM
Yeah. Just when you thought one dog food company might be different from all the rest. :sad: