Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Alternative to HA

sissani
February 24th, 2007, 08:23 PM
I posted a while ago about my skinny dog, Louie. Well he had another bout of diahhrea and I said enough was enough and hauled ass to the vet. She put him on a med and I fed only straight EN for the ten days he was on the med. (I get EN free from work.)

So the diahhrea cleared up and I called the vet back to see what the next step was, because I remembered her saying something about a hypoallergenic food. I spoke to the assistant and she tried to sell me on the Purina Vet Diet HA, but thanks to what I've learned here, I didnt buy into it and I told her I wanted to shop around.

ANYWAY, so its time to buy a new food. I'm heading out to the food store tomorrow and I've got a list made out of things to look for, things to avoid, etc. But is there anything specific I need to watch out for, being the food has to be basically hypoallergenic? It would be nice (for me and for him) to go on a good food, and put a stop to this chronic diahhrea for good.

Prin
February 24th, 2007, 08:30 PM
For allergies, you have to make a list of all the foods you've fed so far, and find one with no overlaps.... :o Just because a food is called "hypoallergenic" it doesn't mean it doesn't have the one ingredient (or one of many) that your dog is allergic to.

gypsy_girl
February 24th, 2007, 08:30 PM
Basically you need to find a totally alternate protein source such as fish, vension, duck etc. You can try to avoid the proteins that your dog has been exposed to in the past, but using one of these, you can almost be assured of little to no exposure.
The first ingredient should be a species specific meal, ie duck meal salmon meal etc, not meat, and certainly not potatoes etc.
You can also try a grain free diet, however there are not any good grain free alternate protein source foods that I know of.
Using a pre and probiotic and digestive enzyme is also helpful. The biotics for the looser stool common with food issues, and the digestive ezymes to help with extra absorption.
Some options

Go Natural Salmon and Oatmeal
Eagle pack duck (does have alot of extras though)
Wellness Simple solution Venison (does have rice protein as the 1st ingredient though
Good luck!

Prin
February 24th, 2007, 08:51 PM
DVP Natural balance also has a lot of single protein source foods too.

But you have to look at the grains too. They're a major culprit.

mummummum
February 24th, 2007, 09:20 PM
You can also try a grain free diet, however there are not any good grain free alternate protein source foods that I know of.
Go Natural Salmon and Oatmeal
Eagle pack duck (does have alot of extras though)
Wellness Simple solution Venison (does have rice protein as the 1st ingredient though Good luck!

Timberwolf - Ocean Blue as well.

Prin
February 24th, 2007, 09:31 PM
Dakota bison might work too, or wilderness elk... There are two protein sources, but they're both not the usual ones, and there aren't any usual grains either (no barley, oats...)...
http://www.timberwolforganics.com/s.nl/sc.2/.f

gypsy_girl
February 24th, 2007, 09:40 PM
Sorry forgot about the ocean blue!!! :highfive: I forget cause I'm always thinking one protein, one carb (if at all) not all the extras... That's a good one though

mummummum
February 24th, 2007, 09:58 PM
Ummm...Ocean Blue only contains fishies as a protein source.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=grain_free

Prin
February 24th, 2007, 10:50 PM
Ummm...Ocean Blue only contains fishies as a protein source.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=grain_free

lol yeah, I know, but Dakota bison and wilderness elk only have bison or elk and fishies, so IMO, it's ok for allergies too because elk and bison aren't usually fed prior...:o

gypsy_girl
February 24th, 2007, 11:01 PM
Just to clarify Ocean Blue does have other protein sources, such as kelp, alfalfa, potatoes and amaranth etc. Each carbohydrate does have a protein fraction, that could be a potential allergen, although in some cases a negligible amount. Potatoes are now on the blood testing list for allergies.

Prin
February 24th, 2007, 11:03 PM
Yeah, proteins do cause allergies, but when you said "protein sources" I think most people would read that as meats...:o
potato potahto :D

gypsy_girl
February 24th, 2007, 11:36 PM
Yes, so true... I will have to clarify that if I answer in any further posts. Thanks for the heads up!

sissani
February 25th, 2007, 01:00 AM
For allergies, you have to make a list of all the foods you've fed so far, and find one with no overlaps.... :o Just because a food is called "hypoallergenic" it doesn't mean it doesn't have the one ingredient (or one of many) that your dog is allergic to.


Started on Dog Chow, then Purina One Lamb and Rice, then Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice. He seems to do ok on the EN for the most part, but even on that he sometimes has soft poop.

sissani
February 25th, 2007, 01:03 AM
Just to clarify Ocean Blue does have other protein sources, such as kelp, alfalfa, potatoes and amaranth etc. Each carbohydrate does have a protein fraction, that could be a potential allergen, although in some cases a negligible amount. Potatoes are now on the blood testing list for allergies.

What other foods are on that list? Vet said if this next food change doesnt help him, we'll move on to allergy testing...

~michelle~
February 25th, 2007, 01:40 AM
brax had some allergy problems
wellness simple solutions were good for him
and so is Innova evo RM - we narrowed his allergy to poultry or wheat we believe

gypsy_girl
February 25th, 2007, 11:55 AM
You can go to www.vetallergy.com This is the lab that tests for antigens
Although testing is a way to possibly determine allergies, it is not a given. It may show you what is or what is not, but it is not 100% accurate.
I am more of a believer of the "elimination" diet. In the old days you would make the food for the dog, one protein, one carbs, and slowly introduce new proteins to determine which one you got the reaction from.
We have kibble that takes the place of this now, and you don't need to introduce new foods, as long as read label to be sure that you are feeding an ok protein source (this goes for the grains, carbs, alfalfa, flax SEED, etc
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/PandD.html
http://www.oldmotherhubbard.com/wellness/dog_wellness_simple_food_solutions_index.html
http://petcurean.com/index.php?page_id=42
These are three that I can think of the top of my head!

Prin
February 25th, 2007, 02:12 PM
www.timberwolforganics.com - they might have a formula that will work for your doggy too.

Soft stools might just be overfeeding.. If you cut back 1/8 or 1/4 cup is the stool still soft?

mummummum
February 26th, 2007, 01:45 AM
Just to clarify Ocean Blue does have other protein sources, such as kelp, alfalfa, potatoes and amaranth etc. Each carbohydrate does have a protein fraction, that could be a potential allergen, although in some cases a negligible amount. Potatoes are now on the blood testing list for allergies.

The protein sources here are pretty neglible and the ability of canines to digest and absorb these kinds of proteins is of even less consequence. You or I or our dogs could be allergixc to just about anything. But the potential for digesting sufficient protein from one of these sources to cause an allergic reaction as has been visited upon by poor Louie as described is unlikely if not impossible given the extrusion process of creating kibble.

So, let's be clear and honest about our kibble and allergic reaction/intolerance ~ it's either the meat or it's the filler or it's the weird preservatives.

gypsy_girl
February 26th, 2007, 11:47 AM
Hmm
I am not sure that I agree. While the amount of the particular antigen is of importance, I think it would depend on HOW allergic the animal was. While extrusion does make foods more digestible, I think it would depend on the structure of the particular protein.
I guess because I don't want to guess how much of something is in a food, I would prefer a single protein/single carb (if carbs at all)
When you say filler are you referring to the plant proteins, or the fiber? Just because that terminology gets used alot, sometimes referring to fillers such as corn, and some to non digestibles such as fiber...
Just my thoughts

Prin
February 26th, 2007, 04:23 PM
Fillers are usually the non-digestible, number-boosting add-ins, like corn, wheat, barley...

Dogs probably have an equal chance of becoming allergic to most things, but for some reason, they tend to be more allergic to grains than to meats. It could be because the foods these days are so loaded with grains and they're just more exposed to them, or it could be that they just have a natural sensitivity to them regardless of exposure. :shrug:

All I know is I know a lot more dogs allergic to wheat and corn than to any meat. :shrug:

gypsy_girl
February 26th, 2007, 04:36 PM
Yes, I think that's true, that dogs are more than likely going to be allergic to the grain portion (or plant based protein portion) than the meat portion. Funny though that for serum testing testing there are 8 meat sources and only7 grain sources, and that they are almost equal.

Prin
February 26th, 2007, 04:40 PM
I would imagine that would be because of the variety of proteins in plant tissue... Maybe... You know? They'd test for one protein, and I guess the meat proteins are less varied than the plant ones. Like for me, I can't eat whole wheat, but I can eat gluten. :shrug:

I asked about allergy tests for Jemma, and my vet said they just weren't accurate enough to be worthwhile... :o

gypsy_girl
February 26th, 2007, 05:54 PM
Yes, I would agree that testing is not worth the $$$$$$. I think it's better to do the elimination thing, or no grain thing!