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I'm at my wits' end! (or whatever they usually say)

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 02:31 PM
Help me. :o As I posted in the TJT...

Jemma's fur SUCKS! She got swimmer itch in the summer and lost 1/2 the fur on her back. She's only now starting to get her undercoat back. But she gets greasy so quickly and when I wash her (like last night) she gets HUGE dandruffs.

It started with Evo RM. The 'ruffs were about 1cmx1cm flakes. Salmon oil helped a bit, but not nearly enough. So she went onto BATM, where the the flakes nearly disappeared. And then she had her toothy disaster, and had to be on canned for 2 weeks, so she was on Evo 95% meat and the 'ruffs and super grease came back. It's been a few weeks now (on BATM again), and I had let her grease build up because I didn't want to wash her in the winter when it was -100 outside, but it got to be too gross. And now we're back to flakes.

I boosted her up to 3 pumps twice a day of Salmon oil, but is there ANYTHING else I can do? I want my baby to have her fur back! She's soft for the first time in months at least, but she just makes me itchy to look at. :o

Am I missing something? Is there some sort of supplement or something that I'm not considering?

This is the salmon oil she gets: http://www.biologicnr.com/biologicvetnx/products/biofats.htm

gypsy_girl
February 19th, 2007, 02:34 PM
Hey Prin

Check the zinc level (if you haven't done already) I'll check the NRC etc books if you like. Some dogs just need more...

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 02:35 PM
awe poor jemma! and you too! :grouphug:

is she scratching, or do the flakes not bother her at all? so she's not an Evo girl... you are sticking with BATM, yes? and only the bath gives her flakes? what shampoo are you using?... could be it's part of the problem?

i would try Fish Body Oil capsules (1000 mg) capsules instead of the fish oil. It's the same but it's not... has salmon oil + two or three others, depending on the brand. many people swear by it.

flakes suck :frustrated:

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 02:39 PM
Zinc, eh? Hmm... Could be an idea.

Techno, my salmon oil has krill, flax, hempseed, olive oil, plus some vitamins... :o She's definitely staying on BATM for now.. It's the last chance I have in kibbs.

The shampoo I used yesterday was baby shampoo with doggy conditioner. I hadn't used it on her before.

brandynva
February 19th, 2007, 02:52 PM
I'm having similar issues, Prin. Not the same cause though. Roscoe is smelly, greasy and flaky and itchy. I just switched him completely over to Innova, so I'm hoping the better food will help the itchies. I have also been adding yogurt and eggs to his diet. He just had a bath last Wednesday and he is already nasty. :rolleyes: So, I hope you can figure out what's wrong with Jemma, and maybe it's the same for Roscoe...

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 02:56 PM
Techno, my salmon oil has krill, flax, hempseed, olive oil, plus some vitamins... She's definitely staying on BATM for now.. It's the last chance I have in kibbs.

The shampoo I used yesterday was baby shampoo with doggy conditioner. I hadn't used it on her before

a-HAH! she may be allergic to flax, or hempseed, etc. take away all those additives and try the pure stuff, any pharmacy has the Omega-3 mixes in capsule form. you have nothing to lose ;)

also i found this... better to use dog-specific shampoos in some cases... :o

There are rare causes of dandruff that are inherited or the cause is unknown. Examples include seborrhea, psoriasis, and ichthyosis. If routine efforts to control dandruff in your dog fail, you should consult a veterinary dermatologist.

Flakes from the surface of the skin may not be skin cells. Substances applied to the skin which dry and flake may mimic dandruff. Shampoos, conditioners, and other skin cosmetics should be thoroughly rinsed after application to the skin. Keep in mind, too, that the presence of itching can indicate other factors such as fleas, lice or mange mites.

If your dog has white skin flakes around the neck, back or rump, he's probably got dandruff and there are some things that you can do. First, do not use shampoos made for human beings on your pet, especially not baby shampoos or medicated shampoos. A dog's skin has different ph level than human skin, so the chemicals in people shampoo can actually harm your pet's skin. Instead, try using dry skin and seborrhea shampoos especially for dogs. These shampoos contain sulfur or salicylic acid. Be sure to follow the directions on the label.

Make sure that you thoroughly rinse your dog after shampooing. The shampoo residue can cause your dog to itch and scratch. Fatty acid supplements such as Drs. Foster & Smith Vitacaps or Vitacoat and oatmeal shampoos could be helpful for the coat and for the removal of dander.

If your dog continues itching, scratching, whimpering, or is otherwise in distress, please get your pet to the veterinarian. The presence of dandruff can sometimes indicate that the onset of serious health problems such as skin infections, allergies or an invasion of nasty parasites.

gypsy_girl
February 19th, 2007, 03:04 PM
An allergy is always a possibility when these oils are in the whole seed form, but not if they are expressed as flax oil, etc
The protein in oils is a different molecular structure than that of proteins.

klytamnestra
February 19th, 2007, 03:20 PM
have you considered coconut oil? My boys get salmon oil, coconut oil, and Vitamin E, and their coats are delicious.

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 03:29 PM
An allergy is always a possibility when these oils are in the whole seed form, but not if they are expressed as flax oil, etc
The protein in oils is a different molecular structure than that of proteins.

Yeah, that's what I thought too. They're all oils in the supps I use. :shrug:

If your dog has white skin flakes around the neck, back or rump, he's probably got dandruff and there are some things that you can do. First, do not use shampoos made for human beings on your pet, especially not baby shampoos or medicated shampoos. She doesn't have them only on her neck, back or rump, she has them ALL over. Her legs, her shoulders, her belly, everywhere. Last time she had a bath was probably in the fall, and I used doggy shampoo with doggy conditioner and she still had the flakes.:shrug:

But I'll check out coconut oil and zinc and see what I come up with.:)

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 03:35 PM
prin the only things I can think of at this point...

1 - it's genetic
2 - she "caught" something last summer, and perhaps a skin scrape would tell you if anything is happening behind those flakes... :o

gypsy_girl
February 19th, 2007, 03:35 PM
Yum Yum LOVE that coconut oil!

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 03:36 PM
more like coconut "shortening", LOL! :D

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 03:39 PM
Genetic, eh? But mutts are supposed to be free of genetic thingies. :laughing: :laughing:

Maybe the food just needs more time to kick in... Ok, so she's already eaten 30lbs of it, but still! :sad:

She did catch something last summer, but was treated for it. She had a full body rash going on... Maybe it's not gone yet. :confused: :sad:

So many things.

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 03:45 PM
if only vet visits were the price of a Happy Meal :o

maybe... getting a skin scraping is not a bad idea, it would tell you which direction you need to go in to get this cleared up... if the skin is clear and normal... must be the food or supplements or shampoo or... ?? and if it's not clear and she needs meds...

yeah. so many things! :yell:

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 03:49 PM
Hey, wait, I do know it's not the supps because she started drinking a ton on them, so I stopped them for a bit and the 'ruffs came rushing back. So it's definitely not the supps.

Could it be the high protein? Or maybe the potato? :confused: The only food left to switch her to would be the california natural herring (grainyyy) or timberwolf organics, but that's still a 40 minute drive from here... I thought about putting her on a chicken food, but I can't risk Boo getting it.:shrug:

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 03:50 PM
hey prin... (feed her raw wholesome goodness!)

he he he! :D

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 03:53 PM
lol I was waiting for it. :laughing: Not in my budget, even if I wanted to. :o

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 03:56 PM
i couldn't disappoint you now, could I? :D :D :goodvibes: teeeheeee!

~michelle~
February 19th, 2007, 04:33 PM
could it be as simple as the weather and the artificial heating system getting to her, i know i can be really sesitive to it and it is horrible on my skin... try a humidifier?

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 04:36 PM
Good idea, but I can't.. It would kill Mr Asthma. :rolleyes:

~michelle~
February 19th, 2007, 04:45 PM
wouldnt a cool air humidifier help asthma?

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 04:47 PM
Not from what Mr Asthma says. :laughing:

rainbow
February 19th, 2007, 06:01 PM
Could it be the high protein? Or maybe the potato? The only food left to switch her to would be the california natural herring (grainyyy) or timberwolf organics, but that's still a 40 minute drive from here... I thought about putting her on a chicken food, but I can't risk Boo getting it.


Hmmm....you forgot about the Great Life dog food.....sweet potaotes and buffalo meat. :D

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 06:06 PM
lol I'll wait to see that in a store. :laughing: :o

breeze
February 19th, 2007, 06:29 PM
what I was told by my vet was it's the heater in winter and wash with an oatmeal shampoo and when you think he or she is rince rince again, give him or her iol supp and bruch on a reg basis, do you really think it's the food that does this?? I thought it was dry skin or dandreff

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 06:59 PM
prin, an excellent groomer trick to get rid of the last bits of shampoo (don't use conditioner, no need): after you've rinsed jemma nice and good, pour a small bucket of lukewarm water with vinegar (about 1 to 6 ratio to dilute the vinegar) all over her, DO NOT rinse. this will take care of any residues AND give her coat a great shine. the smell dissipates quickly, no worries. did this with my dobies all the time and it was amazing :thumbs up

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 07:00 PM
Cool.:) I wayyy over rinse her for sure. I have allergies to a lot of soaps, so I know what it's like to be soap-itchy.:o

coppperbelle
February 19th, 2007, 07:06 PM
How often do you bathe her? Doing it too frequently could be causing the flaky skin.
I mentioned in another post that both my dogs fur has grown in so beautifully since they began eating the Canidae. It is too bad that yours has chicken allergies.

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 07:13 PM
Last time I bathed her was when the temps were consistently above zero. :o

Scott_B
February 19th, 2007, 08:18 PM
What didnt you like about the Canidae lamb meal & rice Prin?

phoenix
February 19th, 2007, 08:22 PM
hmm ya we switched to that a couple of bags ago and my guys had no probs switching and are doing really well on it (except I think Maia is too skinny so I'm supplementing her big time). Sam is doing well on it. He had a lot of dandruff about a year ago this time, but not this year.

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 08:24 PM
Phoenix, switched to what? Lamb and rice?

ScottB, I just don't like how there aren't 4 ingredients before the fat. :o

phoenix
February 19th, 2007, 08:27 PM
yes the lamb one. Wanted to stay with canidae but give them a change of flavour when it came out. I have not found a big difference.

Spirit
February 19th, 2007, 10:05 PM
Regarding the salmon oil... It's just been proven that omega 3 on it's own can be detrimental in the long run, so add some primrose oil too... the ratio should be 6:3, 5:1 to 10:1

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 10:06 PM
Hmm, thanks.:)

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 10:10 PM
It's just been proven that omega 3 on it's own can be detrimental in the long run

hence the important of a fresh, varied and healthy diet to prevent deficiencies and overdoses ;) (for both humans and dogs!) :highfive:

Spirit
February 19th, 2007, 10:26 PM
hence the important of a fresh, varied and healthy diet to prevent deficiencies and overdoses ;) (for both humans and dogs!) :highfive:

I'm still looking into it (I don't really understand it, myself).

Most of your typical EFA suppliments use a ratio of 3:6 (let's forget 9 for a minute), 2-3:1 (roughly). Take the Missing Link, for example... 3 is 1000mg, 6 is 450mg. Nupro uses 1600mg of 3, 400mg of 6, and 450mg of 9. Yet it's been said that omega 9 decreases the concentration of 3 and 6... so why is there more of 9 than 6, and less of 6 than 3?

As for 9, there's just too much conflicting information to base judgement on it at all, so for my dog's health, I stay away from it (for now). And because the whole 6:3 ratio thing has just been proven, a lot of manufacturers aren't up to par with it yet, so the ratios are still 3:6, 2-3:1 (on average).

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the future, as there's still WAY too much conflicting info out there.

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 10:36 PM
I just emailed my supps company for the ratio... I could do the math, but it's easier to ask. :D

Spirit
February 19th, 2007, 10:37 PM
Which suppliment are you giving (and what's the company)?

Prin
February 19th, 2007, 10:38 PM
It's this one:
http://www.biologicnr.com/biologicvetnx/products/biofats.htm

Spirit
February 19th, 2007, 10:43 PM
That's Anipet. I could find out for you tomorrow if you don't have an answer. I just did a quick search... I HATE when products don't specify... :mad:

Edit: But it looks like almost 1:1 (515mg of one, 463mg of the other)

meb999
February 21st, 2007, 06:14 AM
my friends basset had alot of dandruff at one point, she tried all different doggy shampoos to no avail. Her vet recommended she try washing him with either diluted Selsun Blue (sp??) or Head and Shoulders --> the vet said it might be a fungus which'll be taken care of with those shampoos....hey they're tested on dogs, right? :rolleyes: :shrug:

OntarioGreys
February 22nd, 2007, 07:16 PM
Jemma's fur SUCKS! She got swimmer itch in the summer and lost 1/2 the fur on her back. She's only now starting to get her undercoat back. But she gets greasy so quickly and when I wash her (like last night) she gets HUGE dandruffs.



The greasiness is a good hint it is likely a health issue rather than a food issue, and as she gets older it will continue to get worse until you get to the root of the problem. And there are dangers to oversupplementing as well which could be adding to the problems. Oily skin and flakiness is usually a sign of a skin infection. Have you ever run a full thyroid panel on her, not just the T4 test? What is she taking for her incontinence? if a form of steroid could be decreasing her thyroid function

Prin
March 30th, 2007, 09:30 PM
Sorry, I didn't reply, OG.:o She's taking DES for her estrogen deficiency. (estrogen pills)

Her coat has gotten a million times better. She's been getting Barking at the Moon with Canidae lamb and rice with two squirts of the biologic vet fats per meal (or just one when she gets the coconut oil), 1 probiotic pill a day and a tsp of coconut oil here and there... Whew! :D I think it's the probiotics that did it though. They're super anti-yeast. Everything else just tweaked it, IMO.

I got my bunny back! :cloud9:

I looked back and realize that the ****s never emailed me back. :frustrated: