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Raw update

angeldogs
February 14th, 2007, 04:52 AM
well i've been trying jag out on raw. today at the 24 hr A&P i bought 3 turkey backs at 75 cents each.and i gave jag 1 and he loved it.also picked him up some chicken legs and thighs and pork ribs.up till today he's had with no soft poops or runs.so far he's had steak, liver and chicken.and is much happier after eating.also i want to pickup some live whole fish.does it have to be frozen first to kill of anything in the fish as of worms or other parisites.i would like to feed some of the frozen prepackaged pollock,haddock.how often should they have fish.

Scott_B
February 14th, 2007, 05:07 AM
i want to pickup some live whole fish

You have a salt water fish tank to keep them alive in? :p

The fish I get is already frozen. So I just thaw and freeze, however some people I know will serve fresh fish. You can freeze for a few days just to be safe if your concerned. Freezing does nothing to the quality of the meat. There is a type of Salmon That you should freeze as it does carry a parasite. Mackerel & herring are excellent choices as well.

Frequency, really, when ever. I usually feed fish two times a week. I don't really have a set schedule for anything. I go down to the freezer, look in and grab something. Variety over time :thumbs up

angeldogs
February 14th, 2007, 05:16 AM
thanks.no tank was thing of buying fresh and feeding that day our grocery store has live tapia.i was told to freeze or the parisites.but rozen works just as well.

x.l.r.8
February 14th, 2007, 10:15 AM
I think it's A&P or price chopper that does herrings for 99c/lb in the frozen section, they were doing trout at 89c /lb last week, be carefull going over board untill you are sure they like the fish, were having trout tonight again:shrug: :laughing: while the dogs tuck into pork:thumbs up

angeldogs
February 14th, 2007, 12:44 PM
jag likes fish.but he's only had cooked,sardines or tuna canned.the good thing about A&P i can shop after work.

angeldogs
February 14th, 2007, 12:54 PM
jag just thru up a peice o turkey bone rom this morning.is that normal.

Scott_B
February 14th, 2007, 07:31 PM
Could be yeah. Rosco has twice vommited a meal he had much later. Once was a beef tongue that he ate 4 hours before. Next time was organ mix. both times I think he got into something outside.

sometimes they can pick up a bug that may upset their stomach. Did he try to eat it again?

technodoll
February 14th, 2007, 07:39 PM
my little girl, when she was younger, would sometimes throw up a piece of undigested bone a day or two after she had eaten it. nothing else, just some yellow bile and the chunk of bone. it's the body's way of getting rid of something that won't pass... better that than an obstruction! she's then learned to better chew her meals since then :thumbs up

angeldogs
February 15th, 2007, 03:07 AM
Thanks thats what came up with the bone piece.at least i know now that it is normal.he took his time eting it.almost ahalf hour.

angeldogs
February 15th, 2007, 09:26 PM
jag is now getting a paste like stool.what is best to help with this.he is also starting to chew his food better.but it's like a doggy drug for him.he eats and then he's a mental moron happy puppy bouncing everywhere.it's nice to see him so happy.:thumbs up

technodoll
February 15th, 2007, 10:15 PM
occasional soft stools are ok, nothing un-natural about it... diarrhea is another matter. you could up the bone content to firm things up, or add some canned pure pumpkin (not the pumpkin pie filler), some probiotics often do wonders. meaty-meals will often cause soft stools, so will feeding too much liver. it's a trial-and-error thing with raw, every dog is different... but his energy and happiness are telling you you're on the right path! :thumbs up :goodvibes:

angeldogs
February 15th, 2007, 10:49 PM
thanks TD.maybe it's just me but i'm just as happy as he is.it's only one meal a day till kibble is gone then that's it all raw.

technodoll
February 16th, 2007, 07:42 AM
ah... maybe the soft poops come from the kibble eh? his body is starting to reject the bad stuff! :thumbs up

angeldogs
February 17th, 2007, 12:18 AM
TD maybe but he still likes his kibble.might switch him over earlier.but don't know what to do with kibble.feeding raw has benn more $$$.but all grocery store.ok bought some pork feet, nz lamb bone in for stew,lamb shoulder blade chops,chicken liver,turkey drumsticks,and 2 turkey backs for $18.the turkey backs were previuosly frozen.is it ok to refreeze and thaw and feed jag.if not will be gone in a couple days anyway.also feeding my bro's dog ben raw also.so what i bought is feeding 2 dogs.

technodoll
February 17th, 2007, 11:41 AM
when i made the final switch, i gave the rest of dakotah's kibble to a homeless kid who had a dog... he was thrilled :o

and i never pay more than $1 per pound for meat, any meat. i watch the sales, i ask butchers for scraps, i buy in bulk from meat distributors... I am feeding two large dogs for $150 per month and that includes canned fish, eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, green tripe on top of the raw meaty bones and pure meat.. mostly beef, chicken, pork and some turkey. i can't afford lamb or goat or anything else :shrug:

angeldogs
February 17th, 2007, 04:05 PM
going to start checking with the butchers.the meat i've been buying has been on sale.i bought my boy a half rabbit,beef heart and pork riblets.the rabbit is or jag.the rest has been for ben also.so it's to large breed dog i've been buying for also.going to hopeully check butchers tomorrow.right now with working the hours i do it's easier to hit the grocery store.but i'm having fun with the raw adventure anyways.

technodoll
February 17th, 2007, 05:26 PM
bargain-hunting can be come addictive, eh? :p today we picked up a few packs of regular ground beef for $0.99/lbs, we mix that with chicken frames we grind ourselves ($8 for 35 lbs). that is our base mix, we add lots of fresh stuff to it.

to stretch the ground mix and add some extra fiber, once a month i'll boil up some brown rice and a bag of frozen mixed vegetables in some water, let cool and puree in the blender. Pack that up in plastic containers and store in the freezer, thaw a container per week. I use about two tablespoons once a day (per dog), in their ground meals. costs me about $2 for the month :)

i wish i could find some affordable rabbit... the kids have never had any, it's too expensive :frustrated:

oh and one dog is 83 lbs, one is 128 lbs and both are still growing. it would cost us MORE in kibble and canned foods to feed these little monsters, than it does raw. :goodvibes:

angeldogs
February 18th, 2007, 09:43 AM
the whole rabbit was $18.00. it was $8.00 for the half.i found some cornish hens for $6 and change.i want to try.jag last weighing he was 76lbs.i still pick him up and he felt heavier this time.ben was 72lbs.he will get bigger with the bull mastif in him.i just need to figure how much to feed him.iwas told with his weight and energy.i would give him 2lbs a day.so ibought a digitl scale.and only 1oz of organs 2 times a week.once i get it all figured out it will be just raw.no kibble.and yes bargan-hunting is addicting:D

technodoll
February 18th, 2007, 10:30 AM
yep, most dogs need anywhere between 1.5% and 4% of their body weight in food per day (small dogs, puppies and working dogs needing the most). if your dog seems to lose some weight on raw, feed red meats, fattier meats or feed more lean meats, the opposite is true for helping a dog shed unwanted weight. so easy! :highfive:

don't forget the essential supplements once kibble is gone:

1 x Ester-C
1 x Vitamin E
1 x Fish Oil capsule

a few times per week is good. :thumbs up

angeldogs
February 18th, 2007, 07:34 PM
we are unsure about supplements we tried the digestie emzymes and got a pink color in his stool and then stopped them.we were told jag will need 2lbs aday so still must do some fiqures.

technodoll
February 18th, 2007, 09:46 PM
what kind of digestive enzyme did you give, and how much? :dog:

angeldogs
February 18th, 2007, 10:48 PM
we gave him swiss herbal broad spectrum.at 1 day.

angeldogs
February 18th, 2007, 10:56 PM
i was just on a raw webesite.and they showed their calculations for how much a day to feed.they had there dog eating this amount.

1.7 lbs x 60% ( RMBs)
1.7 lbs x 35% ( muscle meat)
1.3 lbs x 5% ( organ meat)

I don't under stand how they got the 1.3 lbs aday of organ meat.when everthing else is 1.7 lbs.me confused.

x.l.r.8
February 19th, 2007, 02:02 AM
I really wouldn't worry about the slight number difference, it's not exactaly a science, it's a throw it down and if you think you left something out add it in the next feed or give a treat later on.
I like this diet as you can afford to give (or not give) a balance and still know your doing right, cut back a bit on this and add some more of that, collect the left overs one night, puree the veg add in an egg or two and some gravy or fish oil and voilla.
Next day feed something high in bone and a bit of extra liver, and then later all meat or a beef heart.
I was a bit worried at first but sometimes I'm stingy with a days food, mainly when I'm running out of dethawed meat and I want to clean the bowl it's all kept in. I know the next meal may be a hunk of meat so I don't worry if it's a little light on calories, it's coming with the next meal anyhow.
Now I think, 'hey, what ever you give it's all usable energy, and thats more then they would get from any processed food so you can't go wrong'. If you are worried jsut come on line and like me, you will find the answers, and possibly more importantly, the encouragement to get you through :highfive: :grouphug:
Riley is on about 1.5 lbs a day and is doing great on it, I may need to cut down a little but that would require weighing and that takes the fun out of it. :laughing:

angeldogs
February 19th, 2007, 03:32 AM
I'm going to start off at 2.75% of body weigh.which is 2.1 lbs per day.my only concern is i was told to only feed organs only 2 times a week no more then 1oz.and what i've read so far he would get about 1.5 oz per meal.so not sure what to do about the organs.i'm going to try jag on 2 raw meals today.he had 1/4 of rabbit yesterday and he will get the rest today.and some ground beef.turkey back and some heart.between the 2 meals.to make his 2.1lbs for the day.

Scott_B
February 19th, 2007, 06:06 AM
This is what I was talking about in regards to barf feeding vs a prey model raw feeding in terms of simplicity.

This ratio is flawed. What animal is 60% bone?
60% ( RMBs)
35% ( muscle meat)
5% ( organ meat)

80% meat, 10-15% bones and 5-10% organs. This is the ideal portions for a raw diet. but you don't have to measure this out at every feeding. And there is no rule to say this has to be followed strictly. If you provide a variety of meats, then you'll be fine. The whole 1oz twice a week thing..wow thats just plain weird. My guy gets organs when i remember. I feed whole beef hearts or Beef tongue which are both muscles but considered organs. Of course I also feed liver & kidney. But I will add some meat or a boney meal (turkey or chicken necks/backs).

Usually all I do is grab something out the freezer and thats what he gets. Like yesterday, he got a beef heart for breakfast. I gave him a pork hock for supper. This morning some boneless beef. For supper tonight, maybe some lamb ribs. Or I may grab a few herring out. Doesn't really matter though. As long as he gets a variety over time, thats fine. no need to measure it all out.

Also, i kinda disagree with the supplement thing, but again, thats just me. Unless your pet needs it, IMO don't bother. Providing a variety of meats will provide all the nutrients they need. But again, that comes down to personal choice.

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 07:11 AM
My guy gets organs when i remember. I feed whole beef hearts or Beef tongue which are both muscles but considered organs.

umm no, they really are muscle meats, not organs :o Organs = a body part that filters something (think kidneys, liver) or provide digestive aid (think gall bladder, pancreas, etc). the heart is muscle, so is the tongue. you can feed these in massive amounts and not get the resulting liquid poops typical with overfeeding organ meats ;)

Scott_B
February 19th, 2007, 07:29 AM
Well, we can agree to disagre again then :thumbs up

They are indeed organs but are considered a muscle meat.

Few quotes from the rawfeeding list from other users

"Tongue is considered a muscle meat like the heart, it's an organ but it's a
muscle."

"While the tongue is an organ, it is also muscle."

From Chris
"Like the heart and the gizzard, tongue is an organ that is also a
muscle. It's one of those body parts that can be used when looking to
feed a goodly amount of organ meats...but without really trying. Most
people think only of liver and kidney as feedable organs. Tain't true.

http://www.answers.com/topic/tongue

"The fleshy, movable, muscular organ, attached in most vertebrates to
the floor of the mouth, that is the principal organ of taste, an aid in
chewing and swallowing, and, in humans, an important organ of speech.
An analogous organ or part in invertebrate animals, as in certain
insects or mollusks."

:thumbs up

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 09:38 AM
all depends on the terminology you use, scott... skin is the body's largest organ, yet you don't go feed it as "an organ", it's just skin :shrug:

Let's stick to simplicity and common sense, specially when new people are looking to understand the whole thing... "organs" are to be fed in small amounts and mean anything located in the lower abdominal cavity that aid in digestion or processing, filtering nutrients: liver, kidneys, pancreas, gall bladder. think of organs as "sponges"

"muscle meats" are to be fed in large quantities and mean any part of the body which is made of muscle tissue, including stomach walls (ie green tripe), hearts, tongues, butt cheeks, leg muscle, etc Think of muscles as anything that contracts and moves. :angel:

Scott_B
February 19th, 2007, 09:44 AM
Well, like I said, we can agree to disagree then. :p

I stand by my original statement that they are organs, but are fed as a muscle meat. :thumbs up

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 09:57 AM
ok, we'll just educate new raw-feeders a different way then :)

i'd be curious to know what your definition of "muscle" is, please... just curious :dog:

because the dictionary (wikipedia in this case) says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle

Muscle (from Latin musculus "little mouse"[1]) is contractile tissue of the body and is derived from the mesodermal layer of embryonic germ cells. It is classified as skeletal, cardiac, or smooth muscle[2], and its function is to produce force and cause motion, either locomotion or movement within internal organs. Much of muscle contraction occurs without conscious thought and is necessary for survival, like the contraction of the heart, or peristalsis (which pushes food through the digestive system). Voluntary muscle contraction is used to move the body, and can be finely controlled, like movements of the eye, or gross movements like the quadriceps muscle of the thigh. There are two broad types of voluntary muscle fibers, slow twitch and fast twitch. Slow twitch fibers contract for long periods of time but with little force while fast twitch fibers contract quickly and powerfully but fatigue very rapidly.

however it IS considered an "organ" by attribute definition, EVEN IF it is comprised of cardiac muscle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_%28anatomy%29

In biology, an organ (Latin: organum, "instrument, tool") is a group of tissues that perform a specific function or group of functions. Usually there is a main tissue and sporadic tissues. The main tissue is the one that is unique for the specific organ. For example, main tissue in the heart is the myocardium, while sporadic are the nervous, blood, connective etc.

Common animal (including human) organs include the heart, lungs, brain, eye, stomach, spleen, bones, pancreas, kidneys, liver, intestines, skin (the largest human organ), uterus, and bladder. Animal organs inside the body are often referred to as internal organs. The internal organs collectively are often called viscera, the plural of the rarely-used term viscus.

Which is a main cause for confusion, the heart being considered both BUT the crux of the matter lays in the way it can be fed (as a muscle meat) rather than its function. Tongue, as you can see, is NOT an organ in any way, shape or form. :)

Scott_B
February 19th, 2007, 11:19 AM
Well, going by Wiki then

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue

Tongue
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The tongue is the large bundle of skeletal muscles on the floor of the mouth that manipulates food for chewing and swallowing, (deglutition). It is the primary organ of taste.

And I'll post the link I already posted :p

http://www.answers.com/topic/tongue

"The fleshy, movable, muscular organ, attached in most vertebrates to the floor of the mouth, that is the principal organ of taste, an aid in chewing and swallowing, and, in humans, an important organ of speech.
An analogous organ or part in invertebrate animals, as in certain insects or mollusks."


Anyways, I think we're splitting hairs here. I'm not saying they're not a muscle, just that they are organs.

x.l.r.8
February 19th, 2007, 11:23 AM
(jumping in with my flame suit on) But with this model it does not matter what you call it, as long as it doesn't grow in dirt you can feed it :D .
If your unsure feed a little and see how he takes to it, Riley liked Liver and it was cheap so I though why not, 1st raw feeding mistake :o , from then on I only feed liver or kidneys with a boney meal like pork ribs or 1/4 chicken or I run out of poop bags in a hurry. It's all about finding out what suits your dog and what he/she will tollerate (by that I mean physically, as I feed Riley stuff he doesn't like occasionally). :dog:

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 11:23 AM
scott. LMAO! you must drive your wife crazy with splitting hairs like that :D

so skin is an organ, right? eyeballs are organs... so is a penis BTW (reproductive organ)... but one has to know where to draw the line in the sand :laughing:

Scott_B
February 19th, 2007, 11:32 AM
Yes, they are organs, like your post said hey where. And like i said, a tongue is an organ but, fed as a muscle meat. Same as heart. Its an organ, but you feed it as a muscle.

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 11:53 AM
what about uterus? :D

(saw some at a chinese foodstore a couple years ago, looked like bleached tripe) :yuck:

PS: tongues and hearts are NOT organs, they are muscle tissue by biologic definition, so there neeener neeener! :-)

Scott_B
February 19th, 2007, 12:07 PM
So the definition I posted above stating they are an organ of taste is wrong?

As for the heart

Again from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart

The heart is a pear shaped, muscular organ in vertebrates, responsible for pumping blood through the blood vessels by repeated, rhythmic contractions, or a similar structure in annelids, mollusks, and arthropods[1] The term cardiac (as in cardiology) means "related to the heart" and comes from the Greek καρδιά, kardia, for "heart." The heart is composed of cardiac muscle, an involuntary muscle tissue which is found only within this organ

:p

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 12:10 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle

Muscle (from Latin musculus "little mouse"[1]) is contractile tissue of the body and is derived from the mesodermal layer of embryonic germ cells. It is classified as skeletal, cardiac, or smooth muscle[2], and its function is to produce force and cause motion, either locomotion or movement within internal organs.

so cardiac muscle. ;)

Scott_B
February 19th, 2007, 12:14 PM
And again, I never said they wernt muscles. Just that they are indeed organs. ;)

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 12:20 PM
so... they are both? :eek: :laughing:

Scott_B
February 19th, 2007, 12:22 PM
so... they are both? :eek: :laughing:

So the definitions are wrong?

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 12:30 PM
i dunno... too exhausted from the tennis match to care anymore! :o

Scott_B
February 19th, 2007, 12:37 PM
lol :p :grouphug:

angeldogs
February 19th, 2007, 12:53 PM
Ok.well i have heart as a muscle meat.we are trying 2 raw meals today.were splitting up the RMBs and muscle meat in to to meals.first meal had some heart,rabbit,2nd meal is going to be veal shoulder cuts,ground beef with some organ.

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 01:04 PM
angeldogs, you should go easy on the meat variety... sometimes "too much, too soon" will create runny poops and tummy upsets. example: one day feed only beef AND IF that goes well, then next only chicken, AND IF that goes well, the next only veal, the next only pork, etc. you will achieve variety over time and go through the different meats and RMBs you purchased. Also if your dogs have any food allergies, feeding one single meat type per day can help you identify the problem areas.

just a tip from someone who's "been there, done that", i wish i had known 3 years ago what I know now, it would have saved alot of spatters on the floor! :o

Scott_B
February 19th, 2007, 01:06 PM
Sounds good. Just make sure your not over doing it with too much variety at first. If your has an iron gut, by all means feed a variety, but if they are sensitive at all, then go slow.

By slow, serve one protein source and slowly add more. When i first started to feed rabbit I cut a bit off and added it to his other meat meal. Then upped it a bit. Then feed a half rabbit. Now he eats whole ones fine. Every meal doesn't have to be 80/15/5% etc. You can have an all meat meal, or an organ/meat meal, or a meat/bone meal. None have to be 80/15/5.

Edit, Techno beat me too it :p

technodoll
February 19th, 2007, 01:12 PM
actually scott our posts complement each other very well! :highfive:

angeldogs
February 20th, 2007, 02:40 AM
Well thanks.for just about the first 5 days he had turkey backs and did ok.it wasn't till the weekend i gave him chicken on saturdayon sunday he got the rabbit only 1/4.monday rabbit and it was the last 1/4 and some veal chops.he's not getting the food the same day i buy it other then the turkey backs.he's did good with the heart,liver and kiddney.all of which i cut up into 1oz pieces and packaged them i piece at a time and did good on them also.only got 1 piece of kiddney and 1 piece of liver at a time.the heart i gave him a couple of pieces.the only poop problems were have was yesterday.and he had a couple of poops.1st was clear slimmy no smell.but had a 1 inch piece of bone in a V shape.talked to wife when at work second was brown with red in it.3rd was yellow and slimmy.i was only home for the first 1.other then that the poops have been good.so i think i might start grinding all bones.i'm going to call the vet office when i wake up.but knowing them they will only talk if there is an appointment made.

angeldogs
February 20th, 2007, 02:55 AM
I forgot about the steak.first raw he had and the only time he's had steak.thanks for all the advice.:offtopic: why do dogs have to move when we go for the camera.my son woke up and feel asleep on the couch.jag against the back.jag head on my son's chest.my sons leg over jag.went to get camera jag sat up.so much for that.then jag laid back down with his head on his chest and right leg over the chest.man the times when camera is across the room:frustrated:

Scott_B
February 20th, 2007, 04:53 AM
Why grind the bones??

A few pieces of bones getting through is normal as his stomach juices aren't quite up to it just yet. Give it some more time.

But again this what I'm talking about with your ratios you posted before. He should be getting 80% meat, and only 10-15% bone. So make sure hes not getting too much bone.

Also, organ meats can cause dark stools as well. And a bit of blood (red) i wouldn't worry too much. As long as it not dark red blood and constant every time he goes.

By grinding the bones, hes gonna miss out on all the teeth cleaning that a good meal will give him. And thats important with a raw diet. Feeding large pieces that they can rip & tear at. Something they can work at, and strengthen those neck & jaw muscles. Thats a great benefit to a raw diet.

Of course grinding everything is better then not feeding raw, but you loose a major benefit.

technodoll
February 20th, 2007, 08:55 AM
i do both... half their meals are ground, half are juicy meaty raw bones. we have to grind to get enough food in their systems for them to maintain a good weight (we still "feed" them their breakfasts) also it's a great way to make sure that a) they eat everything we put in there and we know exactly how much it is and b) no matter if they hate some of the additions, like raw liver and raw fish, well it still goes down the hatch! works for us and our stupid-fussy dogs :)

x.l.r.8
February 20th, 2007, 09:58 AM
It took Riley about a month at least to be consistant, I think it takes a while to get the digestive system primed to deal with whatever comes it's way. Of course if you feed something that requires a lot of chewing it helps to get the juices flowing in the gut, where as an easy meal goes down quick. Turkey backs last about a minute but a set of pork ribs would keep them going a while.
My 2 hate frozen so it has to be cold or warmer if they are lucky and I remember to take it out of the fridge early :D
Riley had a few boney poo's with a little (few drops of blood) at the start, the slimy ones after I believe were mucous produced to protect the lining from further damage. I can't even remember when we changed (not so long ago) but when we go to the park and I have to pick up, most say "it that it?", to which I reply, "well he did go yesterday ;) "
it does take a little time, be brave and as the others have said, limit yourself, i have a feeling Riley has issues with lamb, so yesterday we found some real cheap (special at $1.20 for some meaty rib left overs, with $1 off :thumbs up ) so as I know he's good to go at the moment I'm going to try him with a little later today and I'll know for sure.
He did real bad things on wellmess Lamb (not a typo, first/only time he has let go indoors and we were up every 2 hours letting the poor boy out, at least the snow will help sooth him if things do go wrong:laughing:
I would limit yourself to just a couple of different meats and very very slowly add something here and something there. Also those deals at the grocery store also help, a tray of this here and some bits of something else there allows you to cheapy add a little variety without having a freezer full of something they wont eat (yes I'm still eating trout, but my hair is real shiney :eek: ) Sound liek you are pretty much there, soon they will refuse kibble altogether :thumbs up

Scott_B
February 20th, 2007, 12:01 PM
Yeah, I would introduce 1 protein source a week. That gives you time to see if they have any issues with it, rather then guessing, hmm, is that the beef or the lamb they have issues with.

angeldogs
February 20th, 2007, 01:00 PM
Scott_B it's that bone that's bothering me the most.the point on it was sharpe enough to cut.and o don't want his insides cut up.and his poops have been fine other then yesterday.every meal has been backs which has only been i raw meal a day till yesterday.today his poops are fine.like i said it's that sharp piece of bone that made it real bad to me.so don't feed bone with every meal then.?

angeldogs
February 20th, 2007, 01:13 PM
x.l.r.8. maybe thats what the slimmy stuff was there to protect the lining.i've also been weighing everything in oz then for his first day of 2 meals i split it up the amount into to meals so he got some meaty bone,muscle meat.and some organ.1 piece of organ cut up into 1oz pieces.he hasn't changed in anyway.other then shiner coat a lot more better looking.

angeldogs
February 20th, 2007, 01:23 PM
can he eat turkey legs.he's done good with the turkey backs that i feed him the first few day.also his morning meal had no meaty bones.

Scott_B
February 20th, 2007, 01:52 PM
every meal has been backs which has only been i raw meal a day till yesterday

Ok...every meal has been backs? Thats way way to much bone. 80% meat, 15% bone. Backs are ok, IF you add them to a meaty meal.

And no of course you don't have to feed bone every meal. Think over time. If you feed an all meat meal in the morning, feed the pm meal as meat with a bit of bone. Like a slab of pork ribs. Or a beef tail, or a chicken 1/4.

You could try turkey legs. You may want to remove some/all of the skin first though, as that can cause loose stool. Up to you. But make sure its a MEATY turkey leg lol.

It just sounds like your feeding way too much bone. Dogs need meat! :thumbs up

technodoll
February 20th, 2007, 02:11 PM
turkey backs are OK if there is lots of juicy meat on it... if the meat has been stripped off for human consumption then yeah, that,s not good fed alone as a meal. :o

angeldogs
February 20th, 2007, 07:07 PM
The turkey legs had alot of meat on them.


How would I do that in each meals with the meats and bone. Like how much in each meal?

Thanks Jag's mommy

technodoll
February 20th, 2007, 07:48 PM
is jag still on half kibble, half raw?... :dog:

Scott_B
February 20th, 2007, 08:05 PM
First off, don't think about it so hard :p

Think a two week period. As long as you feed a variety of meats over that time, your fine.

For me, time is a concern in the am. So I feed my meaty meals then. Boneless beef. Beef heart. Beef tongue. Organ mix. Tripe. etc. Then for the evening meals, I know he takes longer to eat his bone meals, like a turkey 1/4, or a slab of lamb/pork ribs, beef tail. Or I may feed more boneless beef with a turkey neck, or a few raw eggs. just to add that bit of bone. Or I may feed whole mackerel or herring.

I don't feed these in any order or plan anything out. I just try to make sure he gets a variety over that two week period. Im at the point now where I just grab whatever. i know what i have in my freezer, usually a months worth, so i know that if i feed whats in my freezer, hes getting a great variety.

each meal doesnt have to be perfectly balanced. thats kibble talk :p

x.l.r.8
February 21st, 2007, 12:05 AM
TD I think this week Jag is getting lucky and having all raw.

Turkey backs are at best 50% bone, as is with necks. The legs are a good medium, don't be scared and think your leaving something out, I buy pork shoulders so a few days they get mostly meat, I buy pork riblets when there on sale and add them in. Neither are to keen of organs (definition with-held :p ) so I add them in with there weekly leftovers in gravy. I do add omega 3's and the girl gets glucosamine but I have no data on the validity of either, the leftover bowl also see's sardines or herrings and raw eggs with shells thrown in (although they usually pick most of the shell out :shrug: ) I like giving Ghicken legs as they are large enough to make them chew and work a bit, and they are also about the right bone/meat ratio I buy nice fat ones (again only when they are on sale) also chicken breast with the leg is also a nice meal. The balance can be obtainen over the week, or the month, or what ever is on sale :D
I do think the bone, although sharp, passed through and was jsut probably a bit denser then he's used to. His digestion will soon be up to the big stuff, I used to see bits of bone regularly at the beginning (like every other poop) but now if anything they are a little soft, but more importantly they are little, so they are easy to deal with whatever the consistancy.
It's hard not to panic but believe me, the alternitive is much worse ;) Kraft dinners and peanut shells :yuck:

angeldogs
February 21st, 2007, 04:56 AM
TD.Jag has been on all raw since Sunday.still have a 1/4 container of kibble left.and it's a 40lbs container.ok jags first raw was steak and kibble.then it was turkey backs for 3 days. then pork ribs.back to turkey backs for 2 days.and then sturday his last day with kibble he had chicken legs with backs.all had lots of meat on bones.his raw was feed between 5&6 am.then 1cup kibble at 2pm and 2cups kibble around 9pm.for three cups a day.on saturday i bought a scale and found this web site raw diet info ranch.and found how to calculate everything.and when he started all raw on sunday.i weighed everything for each meal.so for starting % i chose 2.75% of body weight.which was 2.1 lbs.of food per day.and i used their percentages to figure everything out.i used oz

2.1lbsx60%(RMBs)=1.26lbs or 20.16oz.divided that by 2 = 10.08 oz per meal.

2.1lbsx35%(Muscle Meat)=0.735 or 11.76oz.divided by 2 =5.88 oz per meal.

And i weighed out everything seperately and by meal.so i could get a ruff idea as to how things worked out.so it's been including today will be 4days on raw only.i just don't understand how they got the numbers for the organs.:sorry: for the post.

Scott_B
February 21st, 2007, 05:05 AM
again, go back and read my post. There is no need to do all that measuring.

Feeding a chicken leg with a turkey back is feeding too much bone. Unless that back has an ungodly amount of meat on it, like having the breast attached, its too much bone.

Whats this website your going off of? :confused:

Edit. Ok, I found he site http://www.rawdogranch.com/rawdietbasics.htm

Some of the rmb they talk about are great, like the chicken 1/4s, whole rabbits, whole fish. But necks & backs should never be feed as is, without adding lots of meat.

all that measuring just seems to complicate things. Why not make it simpler?

technodoll
February 21st, 2007, 09:00 AM
scott for some people it does help to weigh things in the beginning, to get an idea of what a "hunk of pork butt the size of two fists" weighs, and then as things progress it's easy to eyeball meal portions, you approx. what weighs how much :shrug:

some dogs will eat everything you give them and pork up, or get runny poops from too much food. neither is good.

i personally DO weigh both dog's breakfasts on a scale, a scoop of ground chicken frames is denser/heavier than a scoop of ground chicken or ground beef so I like to know which dog is eating how much food (in pounds). if the dogs eat too much they get cannon butt. if they eat too little, they get skinny in a few days.

i guess i'm in the middle of the road, not a purist raw feeder (the kids do get yogurt, canned fish, cottage cheese, baked sweet potatoes, veggie & rice puree, slices of bread for snacks as well as milk bones, i sear their raw meaty bones... and half their diet is ground). i strive to achieve what is a good balance for them (they do well on about 25% bone, 50% meat and the rest is "other stuff" such as eggs, fish, other goodies). Some days they get mostly meat, other days more bone, but in the end it works out for them. every dog is different, and every owner has their way of doing things :goodvibes:

but i'll admit, if my dogs DID enjoy eating whole big meaty pieces like rosco does, it would make my life alot easier! :yell:

Scott_B
February 21st, 2007, 09:34 AM
Oh im not saying don't weigh things. Heck, I weigh out what Rosco eats for the day. What I am saying is you don't need to weigh out x amount of meat and y amount of organ and z amount of bone to achive some perfect ratio for each meal. Make it simple. Your feeding beef, and think, hmm, i'll toss a bit of liver in that. Perfect! No need to calculate based on weight what exact amount they need.

And yes of course there are exceptions with certain dogs. They cant handle certain meats or have allergies. So you work around that.

x.l.r.8
February 21st, 2007, 11:03 AM
I'm just going to add this blindly. 2.75% seems a bit on the generous side, are you using the target weight, or the actual weight, also when we do doggy calculations we tend to round UP as well (well I do) and you could be giving a bit to much, unless Jag is super active in the winter. Riley is a bit under 2% or desired weight (a number I picked out of the air with a little questioning around the dog park of similar sized/shaped dogs) and rounded DOWN now, and missy is more like 2.5% or her weight as she has bad hips and I don't want her pushing them.
The larger dogs generally need less in terms of weight/% ratio.
Also what helped me was I could squeeze Rileys daily meat into a certain size ziplock bag, that saved me weighing everything all the time once I was happy this was the correct amount.
In the morning he gets half of the meat and the evening he gets the rest with something boney. However Missy has made is all a bit different, however she has roughly 2/3 of what Riley has so it's pretty easy to divide now, she also refuses a meal of two so she has it already weighed out for the next one as it just goes straight down again.
Wow TD, I don't realize how tight a line you were walking with your two. I think Riley would eat my socks if they were given to him (rather than him stealing them) and not have a complaint. I'd like to be middle of the road but I was exhausted at choosing kibble, this is about as far as i could go. To be reliable and realistic trying to do more would end up with us back on kibble.
It's very easy for feeding to become an obsession, and while I have seen the positive results in a very short time, I don't want everything to become a scientific experiment. :2cents: (easy to say when Rileys doing well, not so easy for poeple like TD who have to be that much more carefull).

technodoll
February 21st, 2007, 11:19 AM
yeah it sucks to have dogs that look at you like you're crazy when you hand them a nice juicy raw steak :yell: but we work around it... for us, there are no alternatives you know? :o

scott now i see what you mean now about weighing :highfive: and it's bang-on. variety over time!

angeldogs
February 21st, 2007, 12:35 PM
x.l.r.8.that 2.75 was just a starting point.Jag doesn't stop moving unless he is sleeping or laying down with a chew toy.if he sits for minute he's doing good.the joys of the weim.high energy dogs.but i love him just the way he is.

angeldogs
February 22nd, 2007, 05:55 AM
Do any of you feed pigs feet.

Scott_B
February 22nd, 2007, 06:07 AM
I've never come across them to feed them. But i know people that do. But they usually given as a treat more so then a meal, unless they have a lot of the leg still attached. The feet are mostly fat, bone & cartledge. Great exercise for chewing at though.

I do feed pork hocks though.

x.l.r.8
February 22nd, 2007, 09:27 AM
I look at pigs feet but there diesn't seem to be much in there except for fat. I also grab hocks when they are on sale and they look meaty, but my two wont touch them unless the skin is removed.
Basically I grab what will be the main part of there diet when it's cheap, add in what ever is on sale and work it from there, I keep meaning to pick up a box of the mix at the local meat packers thats heart/lung/trachea, tripe ect all mixed to a 30 lb block and sawn to 1lb chunks, but I don't want to sacrifice that much freezer space at the moment :sad: Once I get the new one i'm off to try out this stuff. It's worth looking around and having a ring around from the places on the list http://lepusreg.tripod.com/NRS.html and seeing what they have. I was surprised how helpful they were even when I mentioned dog food. :thumbs up

Scott_B
February 22nd, 2007, 09:35 AM
Thats too bad about the pork skin. Thats part of what I love about the hocks, how tough the skin in. Gives such a good chew workout.

technodoll
February 22nd, 2007, 09:58 AM
thick pork skin (like on hocks, feet, ears) give both my dogs the splats :eek: so i don't feed it anymore... too rich for them. they can't do lamb, either.

Scott_B
February 22nd, 2007, 11:19 AM
Thats too bad techno. Then again, Im sure the beanies don't mind :p

I'd love to get my hands on a whole pig head and let him have a go at that...oh he'd love that! :cloud9:

angeldogs
February 22nd, 2007, 12:57 PM
that's what i was thinking was more of a treat something to just chew on.other then his evo treats

angeldogs
February 22nd, 2007, 01:05 PM
so with feeding bone meats.say's i give him a turkey back in the am then in the pm just give boneless meats.so it would work out just 1 bone feeding instead of 2 meals.

Scott_B
February 22nd, 2007, 01:16 PM
Personally, I don't like feeding that much bone as a meal. If the back had a breast attached to it then yes. Remember 80% meat, 10-15% bone. Feeding a bone meal and a meat meal, your feeding almost 50/50. And feeding too much bone can cause constipation.

barkley21
February 22nd, 2007, 03:13 PM
I agree with Scott. I used to feed too much bone (a lot of backs and necks)and the results were pale chalky poops and oftentimes a bunch of slime which was obviously there to protect the lining of the colon. Since I've been sticking to the ratios Scott outlined above, everything has been smooth sailing :thumbs up

angeldogs
February 23rd, 2007, 03:51 AM
I picked up some ground beef.beef tonuge.some jumbo sardines,whole mackerel,pork roast,meaty turkey drums and pork riblets.so say ribs or turkey backs i was also going to add some muscle meat.then meal 2 just some muscle meat,egg,fish once a week to the second meal.thanks for the help everbody.i will get it yet.i only get about 4hrs sleep lately and it's slowly starting to sink in.i'm going with your%.but how come i'm reading on some raw sites 60% raw meaty bones and 35% muscle meat.it makes for a confusing time.

angeldogs
February 23rd, 2007, 05:03 AM
that tonge was pork.2 in a package.he wanted them.the sardines are a product of portugal.at least i have a variety of food.

Scott_B
February 23rd, 2007, 05:24 AM
I picked up some ground beef.beef tonuge.some jumbo sardines,whole mackerel,pork roast,meaty turkey drums and pork riblets.so say ribs or turkey backs i was also going to add some muscle meat.then meal 2 just some muscle meat,egg,fish once a week to the second meal.thanks for the help everbody.i will get it yet.i only get about 4hrs sleep lately and it's slowly starting to sink in.i'm going with your%.but how come i'm reading on some raw sites 60% raw meaty bones and 35% muscle meat.it makes for a confusing time.

Its because of the whole Barf thing. Dr. Billinghurst started a diet called Barf (Bones And Raw Food or Biologically Appropriate Raw Food). Many raw feeders start out on this diet. So there are still quite a few websites promoting it. His diet really pushes bones. As well, he suggests supplements & veggies.

Now however many people are moving away from this diet. They simply call it raw feeding or a prey model raw feeding. This diet looks at wolves in the wild and what they do in nature. Wolves do not hunt lettuce, or broccoli. They don't eat the stomach contents. They don't supplement themselves. And no animals are 60% bone. Meat is main ingredient. Of course bone should be included in this diet, just not at the amounts Billinghurst suggests. 80% meat, 10-15% bone & 5-10% organs. :thumbs up

angeldogs
February 23rd, 2007, 05:37 AM
So is the fish i picked up ok for him to eat.and do they need to have bone everyday.or just a couple of times a week.if so i have lots of rmbs to do and will just have to pickup just meats. is pork tongue also ok.to feed.

Scott_B
February 23rd, 2007, 06:01 AM
Yeah, whole fish is great. Mine get whole mackerel or Herring a few times a week. If they're not gutted then they contain organs too, which is great.

Pork tongue should be fine :D I feed beef tongue.

They don't "Need" bone every day, and for my pup, some days he doesn't get any. But he usually does. Like today, he had a bit of boneless beef for breakfast and is getting organ blend for supper. (organ blend for me is beef heart, liver & kidney)

Plus all of my meaty bones are VERY meaty.

So yeah, just make it simple on yourself. For me, its a meat meal for breakfast, and i feed my bone meals, lamb ribs, beef tail, Tripe, pork hocks, for supper. As long as your getting some bone into their diet, your fine.

Now I'm starting to move towards once a day feeding. I like giving larger whole pieces that my boy can really work on. And I find feeding twice a day, the portions are smaller and not as challenging. So in this case, some days he'll get just meat, others VERY meaty bones. Some days the organ blend. But as long as I feed a variety over time, its fine.

And watch your pup. If his stools are chalky white and crumble as they come out, thats too much bone. Add more meat to the diet. Dark stools are usually from organs. Most of my guy's are a tan color that turn white and crumble after a few days. If you find they're always a bit loose, then add more bone. You figure out what works for your pup, but don't stress out trying to get the perfect poo. :p

technodoll
February 23rd, 2007, 07:35 AM
i'll also add that every dog had different needs, and digests things their own way... for ex my girl can do boneless meals and still has ok poop, but my boy needs bone to firm things up or he gets really wet sloppy poop. when i grind up cases of meaty chicken frames, i get a dark pink mush that looks like ground beef, it's mostly bone but don't forget connective tissue, cartilage, marrow, and some meat in there. i never feed that alone though, always with boneless meat or fish, often eggs. i find that feeding them a BIT of veggies quiets my mind (variety in vitamins, even if in nature wild dogs wouldn't bake themselves a sweet potato! LOL). so in reality i am feeding about 25% bone, sometimes a bit more or a bit less, and neither dog is ever constipated and their poops are always a nice brown color, not pale or crumbly which would indicate a bone overdose. BUT i know of dogs who eat 15% bone and it plugs them right up! :eek: sorry for the rambling, ha ha :p

Scott_B
February 23rd, 2007, 08:22 AM
Not rambling. Excellent points. :thumbs up

angeldogs
February 23rd, 2007, 12:29 PM
your not rambling TD.so whole sardnies for him in to nights dinner.i thought it was beef tongue.but then there would be a fight with the two uf us beef tonuge yummy.:D :thumbs up next time

angeldogs
February 24th, 2007, 01:47 AM
Those percentages or they per meal or over a weeks time frame.

Scott_B
February 24th, 2007, 05:39 AM
Either or. lol

If you served fish for example, whole fish with the organs, then you are feeding the whole percentages.

basically, you want to pretend your feeding an entire animal. Thats where the 80/15/5 come from. So if you feed your dog a whole chicken, and he only ate half. Well, over the next few days you continue feeding it all until its gone. There, you just covered the 80/15/5 over a few days. Understand?

We all don't have whole goats, lamb, or beef cattle laying around in our freezer ready to be eaten, so you feed a variety of meats, some meaty bones, and some organs when you can, and your fine. If you can feed whole prey, like whole fish, whole rabbit, mice, etc, then thats fine too.

I can kinda see what your getting at. And if I'm guessing correctly, your probably trying to calculate by weight over a two week period how much meat/organ/bone to feed :p

Don't even worry about it. Just feed a variety of meats & meaty bones and toss them a few organs a few times a week and your gravy :p My guy gets organs when i remember to give em. I'll root through the deep freeze and see a package and think, hmm, haven't feed organs in a while, and take em out. Simple as pie :thumbs up

angeldogs
February 24th, 2007, 11:47 AM
started following the the precentages you and everybody else said.the fish i have are small the mackerel,and the big sardines.but much better going now.theeth look like i used crest white strips:D .sooo soft now and shiney.what part are you from in NS.wife is from around Turo area.

Scott_B
February 24th, 2007, 11:49 AM
Thats great to hear. :thumbs up

I'm living in Jeddore now. Grew up in Cole Harbour & lived in Halifax for a while.

angeldogs
February 24th, 2007, 11:58 AM
the wife was curious she still has family down there.