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if this happened to my kid...

meb999
February 10th, 2007, 12:17 PM
I would be competely OUTRAGED!! This is unacceptable!!

from: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2007/02/09/qc-trelliscage20070209.html#skip300x250
A Shawinigan, Que., teacher who put a nine-year-old student in a lattice cage for misbehaving will not face any disciplinary measures, school board officials said Friday.

The boy's parents discovered their son, Félix, had been kept in a makeshift cage at Shawinigan's École St-Paul, after he complained to them he couldn't see the blackboard.

When they visited the school, they discovered he'd been spending several hours a week in the lattice cage.

The local school board director, Claude Leclerc, told Radio-Canada the teacher did nothing wrong by using what he called a time-out area for a difficult student.

"The child, when he's in the time-out zone, it's to do work," Leclerc said, adding the cage is never locked.

Félix's stepfather, Jacques Turenne, acknowledged the boy can act up, but said that doesn't justify physical isolation.
"We think it's an abuse of power and authority over children, and we don't want those people taking care of our children," he said Friday.

The school board insisted teachers are trained properly to deal with problem children and can call on limited resources such as psychologists and councillors if they need additional help.



For 5 weeks this kid was kept in a freakin' cage!! A CAGE!! The school says it isn't a cage...it's a time-out zone....I'm sorry, 4 walls of wooden trellis (facing a wall, by the way, so he has to turn around to see the board....THAT'S A CAGE! :eek:

The school says that he wasn't kept there often, but the desk in there is HIS, WITH HIS NAME ON IT!! He even has to stay there during recess...
The parents found out when the boy flunked arythmetics, and he was usually really good in that subject....
What are our schools coming to?

meb999
February 10th, 2007, 12:23 PM
does this look like a time zone?
(for those who speak french..there's an interview with the parents :http://lcn.canoe.com/lcn/infos/faitsdivers/archives/2007/02/20070209-092419.html -- click on the first video link.....unbelievable!)

Prin
February 10th, 2007, 01:16 PM
I wish I could have had one of those when I was little.:D Seriously...

But what do you expect? The teachers can't discipline the kids at all anymore but at the same time, they're expected to do most of the parenting. It's totally lose-lose for teachers.

rainbow
February 10th, 2007, 01:22 PM
But what do you expect? The teachers can't discipline the kids at all anymore but at the same time, they're expected to do most of the parenting. It's totally lose-lose for teachers.

I agree and certainly wouldn't want to be a teacher nowadays. :eek:

meb999
February 10th, 2007, 01:39 PM
neither would I .... it's so sad to think that this is where our schools are going....I mean, a freakin' cage?

Prin
February 10th, 2007, 01:41 PM
Yeah, but you can see through lattice... And it was always open on one side, no? :shrug: Compared to the physical torment when we were little, and even more so when our parents were little, this is easy... I mean, we had teachers who threw desks and chairs around... And my elementary school still had a strap. :shrug:

rainbow
February 10th, 2007, 01:50 PM
We had the strap too and lots of detentions. No desk and chair throwing though. :eek:

Prin
February 10th, 2007, 02:04 PM
Yeah, one girl was absent on "desk cleaning day" and her desk was a rat hole, and the teacher got mad and flipped her desk... Like FLIPPED it. Not just toppled it over... And another teacher threw a chair through a window... And another teacher kept us till 5 when school ended at 2:20 just because we all failed an exam... And another teacher had a pot she'd hit things with...

Yeah, there was a lot of badness, but then again, what would you do if you had just gone into the hall to talk to the principal and some punk set your desk on fire? :laughing:

rainbow
February 10th, 2007, 02:05 PM
Sure glad I finished school in the 60's. :D

meb999
February 10th, 2007, 02:06 PM
:eek: what kind of school did you go to Prin???? :eek:

CyberKitten
February 10th, 2007, 02:06 PM
I think so much depends on the whole story tho it does seem a bit much. I always wonder if he has a medical problem or is a special needs student. My mom was a teacher and school principal and says she could never do some of the stuff she did then now - and I don't mean anything like the strap which she never used but hugging a child who is upset or taking a toy (like those lasers) away from a child. And my brother - who does have the qualifications as a teacher but works in another area- says the things kids say to him is scandalous and as an athlete who partied hard as a campus jock while in college, not much scandalizes him so it can't be good.

That said, my sil teachers grade one and she is fed up with the parents who drop off the kids and show up at the end of the day. Granted, she teaches in a school in a part of the city with economic and social problems and there are challenges but you would think parents would be interested enough in their children's' work. And as a pediatrician, I usually see kids when they are not feeling well and I can't say I have ever met any child who gave me problems. Oh sure, some can be "difficult" but they are ill and scared so of course, they act out. But I see some parents who I am not thrilled with either - like their child is in hospital with cancer and they go south or worse, abuse the child when s/he is home so a stressful situation is made even more stressful!!!

Anyway - not sure I'd call it a cage. My mom said once she placed a child's desk outside the classroom but the kid was disrupting the other students - physically intimidating them and hitting girls and just being a brat. He was fine after a few hours of "isolation" where he could not show off. He could see everything tho and it only lasted a couple of hrs. Weeks seems excessive!

I wonder how it all transpired.

Maya
February 10th, 2007, 02:45 PM
The cage actually looks kind of fun but much of my childhood was spent in dark rooms and closets so I guess it is relative.

I saw a lady the other day making her daughter face the wall at A&W which seemed very cruel. She hadn't done anything either, I think she just forgot she wasn't supposed to talk for a while.:sad:

meb999
February 10th, 2007, 04:44 PM
The cage actually looks kind of fun but much of my childhood was spent in dark rooms and closets so I guess it is relative.


yeah, but the boy couldn't see the blackboard...the parents found out about this when he started flunking exams because he can't take his notes....
I feel bad for the kid....he was told by the teahcer if he acumulated 5 'good behavior' points, he would be let out, and even after 7 points, she told him no.
This is cruelty, and this kid'll hate school forever because of it. Should the parents take responsibility for their kids behavior? Heck yeah....it's not the teachers job, if a kid is being so bad that he has to be put in a cage, send him home. Let the parents deal with it.

meb999
February 10th, 2007, 04:45 PM
Alos, I find this is a HUGE waste of taxpayers money -- you can bet your behind that there'll be a HUGE lawsuit, and who's gonna pay??

Prin
February 10th, 2007, 04:58 PM
We are! :D We can't afford textbooks, but we can afford to be sued! :highfive:

Maya
February 10th, 2007, 05:00 PM
I agree it's definitely not okay to do that to a child! I was just feeling sorry for myself that it looks much nicer than where I had to spend my time as a child, I didn't get to go to school most of the time. No lawsuits for me though because it was at the hands of my "guardian".

It's good that people are making a stink about this because the kids need to understand it wasn't okay to be treated badly and that the teacher/s are not getting away with it.

wdawson
February 10th, 2007, 05:12 PM
i would be so outraged i may have become physical with the teacher and principal,i would rather my child be suspended from school...then fight as too why and all would be out in the open....imo that is abuse.......try that with a senior in a nursing home.....thats elder abuse....both are the same type of abuse to me.

happycats
February 10th, 2007, 07:20 PM
I don't know, the "cage" looks more like one lattice screen:shrug:
Really what's the difference between that and sending a child to it's bedroom?
My son's class has a time out area, and I see nothing wrong with it.

Many parents send unruly,badly mannerered, poorly behaved children to school, and the teachers and other children suffer because of it, and the parents feel it's the schools and teachers responsibility to teach their children to behave.
Sorry people, but school's and the tax payers money that runs them, isn't to teach children manners! They should be taught this before they ever enter school.

If people took more responsibility for their childrens behavior, and taught them basic manners, and proper behavior, we wouldn't have these problems.

meb999
February 10th, 2007, 07:30 PM
IMO, there's a difference between sending a kid to a time-out, and putting him in and his desk in a box for 5 weeks straight - -everyday, all day.

I agree it's definetly not up to the school to do discipline, it's up to the parents. If a kids behavior is out of control enough to lock him in a box everyday all day for 5 weeks, then he should be sent home. He should be suspended from school and let the parents dish out punishment as they see fit.

This kid's going to have serious social problems (how many friends do you think he has now that he's been isolated from class for so long??) and learning problems. IT's not right. He should have been sent home. This teacher made a bad decision and it's going to cost the taxpayers thousands of dollars.....

happycats
February 10th, 2007, 07:48 PM
IMO, there's a difference between sending a kid to a time-out, and putting him in and his desk in a box for 5 weeks straight - -everyday, all day.

I agree it's definetly not up to the school to do discipline, it's up to the parents. If a kids behavior is out of control enough to lock him in a box everyday all day for 5 weeks, then he should be sent home. He should be suspended from school and let the parents dish out punishment as they see fit.

This kid's going to have serious social problems (how many friends do you think he has now that he's been isolated from class for so long??) and learning problems. IT's not right. He should have been sent home. This teacher made a bad decision and it's going to cost the taxpayers thousands of dollars.....

I do agree with you, the child should have been sent home, if he was that much of a problem.

joeysmama
February 12th, 2007, 09:42 AM
But what do you expect? The teachers can't discipline the kids at all anymore but at the same time, they're expected to do most of the parenting. It's totally lose-lose for teachers.

Thank you Prin !! My last teaching job was actually in a pretty supportive environment and even THEN it was difficult. I've often said that I would go back to teaching in a heartbeat if I could deal with only the children and not the parents who don't want to discipline the child, don't want to oversee homework, don't want to believe that their child ever does anything wrong and certainly don't want you to correct them for it or drop their grade if the work isn't done. :frustrated:

I had a parent go nuts because I gave her son a C in science. And I thought that grade was giving him the benefit of the doubt. The kid was smart and just not bothering to do the work. I showed the parent all of the work, all of the test grades etc. And her answer was "You know he's smart, you know he could do this if he wanted to--you should give him the A"

I'm sorry. Could anyone tell their boss. "Hey you know I could do the job if I wanted to, so I won't be coming in today. Send the check to my house."

There was the parent who threatened to sue because during a unit on immigration and how it defined America (all positive--celebrating the melting pot and cultural diversity) we asked children to bring in recipes from the country of their heritage so we could make a class cookbook.

I'll never forget that letter, "How do I know that you won't use this information to discriminate against my child, or to discriminate in favor of my child thereby discriminating against another child."

Give me a break ! We wanted to make the lesson fun, give it concrete substance which is a way of reinforcing the (very positive) lesson. This child was as white anglo saxon protestant as they come. I don't know where his sensitivity was coming from but I think he just wanted to find fault.

I know someone who gave the kids 2 weeks to learn the names of the 50 states and be able to place them correctly on a blank map. Worth 2 points each with a point deducted for incorrect spelling. A parent went ballistic and insisted--took it to the principal who sided with the parent:mad: -- that they change the grade. The reasoning? He doesn't have to spell them correcty, he'll have spell check.

OK--one more. My son's math teacher made a cardboard ladder for each child and put it on the bulletin board. Every time they mastered a times table they got a star on a rung of the ladder. The goal was to climb the ladder. My neighbor spent a ton of energy fuming about the ladder. Energy that could have been spent helping her child learn the math. (And yes she was a stay at home mom) But what she wanted was not for the ladder to go away but for her daughter to get the star ANYWAY because not getting it was bad for her self esteem and she wanted stars on her ladder blah blah blah. The child was very capable of learning the math by the way. She probably just needed a little accountability in my opinion. Like working with her at home !!

Anyway after that she got an apology from the teacher for hurting her feelings and stars even if she didn't know. Which, by the way, was discouraging to my son who was enjoying the feeling of accomplishment he was getting moving up those rungs. After that he saw that the neighbor got stars without getting the answers right and that it just was not fair !!

(ok--stepping off my soapbox now:o )

meb999
February 12th, 2007, 10:46 AM
do teachers have it rough? Heck YEAH! Do parents act like teachers should be raising their kids? Heck YEAH! I studied to be an english teacher, and the way teachers are treated is one of the big reasons I dropped out.

That being said, in this case, the teacher had absolutely no right to lock up a kid for 5 weeks in a cage. NONE. This kid shoulda been sent home. Parents need to be the ones who take care of their outta control kids, not teachers. And when teahcers overstep the boundries, well the whole of society (us, the taxpayers) are stuck with the bill, this is going to be a HUGE lawsuit. Who are htey going to sue? The teacher, the principal, the school commission and the minister of education. Who is going to pay? YOU.

phoenix
February 12th, 2007, 11:00 AM
sorry MEB I can't agree with you.

First of all, locked up in a cage is a complete exaggeration. I taught high school, not elem., but still I have met some students that need those barriers (like a study carrel as you would find in a library) in order to focus and concentrate. Secondly, the parent, if they felt the strategy wasn't working, should have come in and met with the teacher and failing that, the principal, to work it out. If the child couldn't participate in the class work, that is a problem, insofar as his participation wasn't excluding the OTHER kids' abilities to concentrate in the class, or their safety. (I don't know what he did to be put there).

In elem, kids are rarely sent home. The reason is that schools are often seen as glorified babysitters, so that parents don't have to be home to watch their own kids. It is sometimes impossible for parents to arrange for time off. This is why suspension is more often used in high school. In Ontario, teachers have recently been given the authority to suspend (before, it was only administrators who could) but unions have strongly warned teachers not to do so, due to the legalities that could ensue around this.

In this case (and I don't know the details), the teacher may have made a mistake in judgement but there are better ways to handle it than in the media and the courts.

The real cost to YOU and ME? In a few years, we'll be paying for that kid's jail time, or welfare cheques, and other fees because without learning discipline and since he's been protected from taking any kind of responsibility for his actions by his overreactive mommy, he'll continue to cost us over and over. I'd rather pay to support the system, quite frankly.

meb999
February 12th, 2007, 11:05 AM
but still I have met some students that need those barriers (like a study carrel as you would find in a library) in order to focus and concentrate. Secondly, the parent, if they felt the strategy wasn't working, should have come in and met with the teacher and failing that, the principal, to work it out. .

Well, as I mentioned in the OP --> the parents didn't KNOW. They found when their kid was complaining that he didn't understand anything in school because he couldn't see the blackboard. He was kept there during recess...why would you keep a kid locked up during recess?

I agree this could be a method of keeping a kid under control by putting him in a time out for an hour or two. But not everyday, all day, for 5 weeks. This is abuse.

meb999
February 12th, 2007, 11:10 AM
The real cost to YOU and ME? In a few years, we'll be paying for that kid's jail time, or welfare cheques, and other fees because without learning discipline and since he's been protected from taking any kind of responsibility for his actions by his overreactive mommy, he'll continue to cost us over and over. I'd rather pay to support the system, quite frankly.

I don't think this is a fair statement. Isn't locking him up and not dealing with the real issue making things worse?

This kid has a twin brother in his class. (who is their star witness). He says his locked-up brother gets constantly made fun of because he's in the cage. The teacher refuses to answer his questions during classtime.
The teacher told him him the only way he could get out of the cage is by accumulating 5 good behavior points. After 7 points, the prof still refused to let him out.

I've done my fair share of time with my nose up against the blackboard (I was taught by nuns), but I think I would have some serious self-image issues if I had been put in a cage for 5 weeks and been the butt of all school jokes because of it.

meb999
February 12th, 2007, 11:12 AM
And like I've repeated a zillion times already in this thread...Am I ragin' on teachers? NO! My mom's a prof, I admire those who can teach kids. It's the hardest job in the world.

phoenix
February 12th, 2007, 11:22 AM
I'm not saying you're against teachers. I'm saying that without being there, you don't know what that kid was like, and if I were a parent of one of the OTHER kids in there and that one was interfering with their ability to work in class, or their safety then I would probably have a different perspective.

I am naturally skeptical of parents' stories. Notice we are only dealing with one side of the story right now. Notice the lack of detail re. the student's behaviour to begin with.

By falling into the media's trap of calling it a cage (when really it's just a 3 sided barrier), you perpetuate the public attack on schools that has been happening for years. It's far better to wait and hear the whole story. As a professional institution, you don't see (well I haven't seen, anyway) the union or the teacher or the school come out with a statement against the student; they'll wait until that is appropriate (ie. in court).

Anyway, there are bad teachers out there, but there are also incredibly bad kids and parents and the teachers just don't have the tools to keep the other 29 (or 34, or whatever) kids okay while they're dealing with kids like the one in question. I just can't believe that kid is an angel and the teacher just snapped and chose a punishment like that without any lead up.

What kind of parent (especially one with another kid in the same class!!!!) doesn't know what's going on in their kids lives? It is this kind of parent who attacks schools- they are so out of touch that they feel the only way they can support their kids is by attacking the system instead of trying to work WITH schools to help their kids behave and learn.

meb999
February 12th, 2007, 11:25 AM
I just can't believe that kid is an angel and the teacher just snapped and chose a punishment like that without any lead up.


I agree that the kid was most probably out of control. For the rest, we'll have to agree to disagree ;)

Prin
February 12th, 2007, 03:32 PM
I agree with Phoenix though.

If the parents were REALLY involved, wouldn't they have known from day 1?

If the parents were really involved, wouldn't they have thought, "oh my kid isn't doing well in this school. Maybe it's time for a change?"

If the parents were really involved, would they portray themselves as super victims in the media?

If the parents were really involved, none of this would have happened period.

LibbyP
February 12th, 2007, 08:06 PM
What kind of parent (especially one with another kid in the same class!!!!) doesn't know what's going on in their kids lives? It is this kind of parent who attacks schools- they are so out of touch that they feel the only way they can support their kids is by attacking the system instead of trying to work WITH schools to help their kids behave and learn.


This is very true ~ I have a child in JK and I make sure at the end of each day I ask her how her day went, what she did, did anything happen etc...I volunteer acouple times a month ~ and I am very upset by the number of parents that do not help their little JK student with their homework papers ~ ABC's really how hard is it to sit down with them for 20 min a day ~ they are already setting them up to fail (IMO) And I'm sorry if I am being a overprotective mama but I'm going to ask her everyday until she is done school, I want an open relationship with their teachers(good/bad).
Not sure how old this boy is but if him or his brother thought something was wrong and he was being treated bad they should have told their parents,family, friends ~ I do not think this boy is an angel ~ I think this teacher made a poor judgement call, she/he should have been contacting the parents and setting up a meeting to discuss what has been going on and how they were going to work together to fix it ~ for all we know the teacher could have sent a note home with the student and the parents never got it same with phone calls home ~ if the parents work who's to say the student didn't come home and erase any messages from the school ~ I'd like to hear both sides ~ JMO

gomez
February 13th, 2007, 03:50 AM
Crate training for kids....


(wink wink, nudge nudge...)

OntarioGreys
February 13th, 2007, 05:35 PM
IMO, there's a difference between sending a kid to a time-out, and putting him in and his desk in a box for 5 weeks straight - -everyday, all day.

I agree it's definetly not up to the school to do discipline, it's up to the parents. If a kids behavior is out of control enough to lock him in a box everyday all day for 5 weeks, then he should be sent home. He should be suspended from school and let the parents dish out punishment as they see fit.

This kid's going to have serious social problems (how many friends do you think he has now that he's been isolated from class for so long??) and learning problems. IT's not right. He should have been sent home. This teacher made a bad decision and it's going to cost the taxpayers thousands of dollars.....


You got that right

My son was diagnosed with ADHD in grade 1, as soon as the school got the report they stuck him in a huge cardboard at the front of the classroom, which humilated the h#ll out of him and caused a lot of teasing and bullying from schoolmates approaching the principal and teacher did nothing but make matters worse, including having them make accusations saying I was not feeding my child because I was a single parent, these force me to put him on Ritalin which made hime sick to his stomach and not want to eat, and if I did not comply they would kick him out of school and I would be forced to send him to a private which at the time could not afford,

I finally had enough and moved so that I coul send him to another school , and I took him off the Ritalin and did not mention to the school about his testing or that I was told that the Ritalin was mandatory, he was in the school for avout 3 months before his records finally got transfered and I was called in for a meeting by the teacher, I was terrified that is was going to be the same thing all over again since I was still in the same school board area, interestingly when I got there the first question I got asked was why was he in remedial reading in his first school, the teacher was quite puzzled since he had at a grade 2 level ended reading a newspaper to her, which was far above what most kids his age level could do, at that point I broke down at told her everything that had happpened and admitted I had taken him off the ritalin, she was shocked and told me she would have him reassessed because what she was seeing was a normal but active boy who gets a bit distracted but not so serious as to be needing meds, she enjoyable and eager to learn and it was wonderful not seeing my son coming home upset and crying and feeling totally humilated


What I learned is that teachers can wield a lot of power and often the principals and schools boards will support them with allowing input from the parent or even the childs doctor. In my opinion they should never be allowed to have that kind of power, his first teacher was young did not have years of experience, whn there was conflict he should have been moved to another classroom, no teachers word about a parent should be accepted without proof, I was offended as hell when the school board contacted me wanting to charge me with neglect for not having food available to feed my son, I told them they are welcome to send the police any day of the week and check my cupboards and fridge and if they want they can also check for liquor and drugs which shut them up pretty fast about that matter but then threatened me with warning to keep my child on ritalin,

So what I see here does not really surprise but it sure stirs up a lot of anger I have over the way they treated myself and my son,

A time out should be a temporary measure, if the teacher was having a problem they should have contacted the parent before ever going to this extreme,( others have stated the parent should know what is going on, my question is how unless they are there, the act of confining the child may have had an effect to cause the child to be withdrawn and afraid to tell his parents the child does not know that what the teacher is doing is wrong, the teacher has led him to believe he is a bad kid there he is afraid to talk about it, so it probably wasn't until the child was feeling very frustrated and distraught did he break down and tell his parents) , in the case of ongoing problems sometimes it can be helped sometimes just moving the child into another class, it the case of my son the first teacher was young and had only be teaching a couple of year, his next teacher was a grandmother and had been teaching for over 25 years I an sure part was personality conflict.

I certainly hope this child is pulled from this school, changing classes is too late by now the child is prabably being picked on and taunted by his school mates, his environment is already poisoned, and too late correct the damage done to salvage his self esteem,

CyberKitten
February 13th, 2007, 08:30 PM
I don't want to digress but I think there are far too many inaccurate diagnoses of ADHD and much of the time, pediatricians are having patients walk in the door telling us what their child's teacher recommended!! - and we discuss this ALL the time (it is an epidemic, not an epidemic of the disease, an epidemic of teachers making medical decisions they have absolutely no business doing. It would akin to me instructing someone on how to do their taxes or representing them in court. I am not qualified nor do I possess the credentials for that. I am however, Board certified in pediatrics - and hematology but I digress - and know the difference between an active healthy child a teacher may just not be able teach (ie - not understand the child's best method of modality of learning, be frustrated because the child is stimulated and likes to ask questions which is quite normal and children are becoming more knowledgeable at that age, not less and I honestly think some (not all for sure but a few) teachers are threatened by this - so they suggest to unwitting parents that their child might be hyperactive or have ADHD. It's disgraceful and unprofessional and as a former school trustee, I can guarantee you we never permitted teachers to determine whether a child had such an illness. I really believe if a teacher is at a point where they have difficulty in the classroom and are there just to put in time until their pension arrives, they need to find some other position!! Especially those in the elementary grades!!

My mom, who held several administrative posts in the education system, fired more than a few of these type of teachers and I never hesitate to tell parents what I think of a "diagnosis" by a teacher. Until they obtain a medical degree and spend four yrs to become Board certified in pediatrics and continue to study and maintain their certification, I do not want to hear it. Unfortunately, there are also some GPs who also listen to parents. In part, they are busy and some patients are very demanding to the point of intimidation but to me, that's still no excuse. They can always opt out and send the child to a specialiist instead of taking the easy way out and writing a script for Ritalin and similar meds. We are over medicating children and that is a serious problem that will return to haunt us!!

I suppose although I am young enough, I attended medical school when, even tho we were courted by the pharmaceutical industry - esp at my alma mater and every school in Boston for that matter - fewer meds was a good thing. Now, we have patients coming in the door demanding medications they have no understanding of. I do want my patients to be knowledgeable and I would like it even if the know more about their child's condition than I do - and some of them do intense research - anyone in their situation would- but it is the ones who question nothing I worry about. A TV ad about a drug, a teacher's recommendation, their neighbour's suggestion and they want it.

I still want to know more about this situation before I make a decision if only because I know what might be written in the media and what happened might be two diverse stories. (and I serve on several editorial boards and am in a family who owns a newspaper or 2 so I see both sides of it.) It does not sound good and I do not blame the ;parents for being upset. If they do not like the school, they should move their child, esp now with all the publicity. And the school board should investigate.

However, I think back to my own elementary school days - which I loved (I really enjoyed school and studying, so much so I still yteach, even if it is in a univ , it's still school, lol) - it was much worse. Children were kept in grade one forever and graded, some teachers - even nuns - used the strap and corporal punishment was approved (tho my mother never applied it, even tho she taught from 1950's till the 1980's, some 37 yrs), children were routinely ridiculed by teachers.

I do think we have progressed - though teachers in many ways have a tougher job. my mom granted would say hey are lazy and I have no time for teachers who disagree with inclusion for special needs students (a particular issue of mine, rather personal naturally). In the bad old days, children who were ill had to stay home and parents had to fight to obtain help. I survived grade one - despite attending it for maybe 2 months (the rest of the year I spent in a hospital or at home convalescing from cardiopulmonary surgery and in grade 3 it would be orthopedic surgery and and....) - because my mom was a teacher!! Now, we provide videoconferencing links between the hospital and the school - this is a favourite pet project of mine I have to admit - something I personally solicit funding and resources for and make no apologizes for my own personal interest in.

So, having observed all of that - this "space" does not look as bad as some I have seen - and while I do not like the way the teacher singled out the child, I would want to know if this is a practice she did with other children who misbehaved, whether this child does have special needs and thus should be treated in an exclusionary way. (I believe if a child who has a special needs issue misbehaves, s/he needs to be treated the same way any other child would be - it does no good allow a child believe they can get away with anything simply because they are ill or have a disability - I've seen that happen and it creates invalids, which is rather fifties like). I do like the buddy system where one child can help a child but it is preferable to somehow involve the entire class.

So, I guess with this issue - I want to know more from unfiltered and unbiased sources before I make up my mind. I have to admit I am not always thrilled with parents who put their children on TV for whatever reason - children I have treated whose parents have sometimes had to go public to raise ,money even in Canada (for transportation costs, hotels, prescriptions if they have no plan that covers expensive cancer drugs tho I usually work with pharmaceutical companies or the govt to see if they qualify for help) often cry to me but not to their parents and feel overburdened by it all. I know the parents are doing all they can but they have to think of what this does to the child's self confidence. Now, some children do very well with this - the natural lively vivacious kids who love the camera but a shy, quiet kid whose family may already have problems (dare I use that all encompassing word "dysfunctional - I loathe that term!) is severely affected by this. So, I question what this publicity is doing to this child. I can understand the parent's anger if what they are saying happened in the way it did but I am not sure I care for the public manner in which they are handling it.

There are so many routes - a principal, a school board - all elected and thus available to the parent (I know when I was a trustee, people thought nothing of calling at all hours - they did not go to the media and we resolved the issue. If a teacher was reprimanded fired, well that happened or if the child actually had suggested something to the parents that had not occurred, we helped the family deal with that.) I see no reason for this to be such a public issue and I guess I question people going public with this. It is not as if there are no policies in place - tho I'd like to know what they are in this District.

I apologize for the length but I simply need more and I am disturbed by parents who place vulnerable children in situations like this, esp after being treated by a teacher. It is almost akin to a woman who suffers sexual assault and then has to cope with the specter of the trial. Now the child's on trial. (and I base this statement on comments I have heard from possibly hundreds of children who felt awful and responsible for their parents using them to gain attention on TV - both as a pediatrician and a school trustee).

Sorry I am so long winded tonite!! (But I worry about this kind of story being explained in a 2 min sound byte and what its impact is on this already hurt child!)

phoenix
February 13th, 2007, 08:57 PM
ooooooh boy ck, usually I am pretty sympathetic to your way of thinking but this really has my blood boil. I suppose it is okay for a physician to decide the best ways to discipline a child, or teach, but a teacher suggest a child has a particular disorder? Oh no, that's way out of the realm of possibility. Your mom shouldn't be an administrator if she has such a bad opinion of teachers; administrators are there "to serve"... that's what the word means- they serve parents, governments, and school trustees but they also serve the working teachers. They are not there to weed them out and fire them, but rather to help them grow and do better by their students. And that is not done by removing them, or students, from their classes, but rather through supporting them and helping them with new strategies that work better.

I agree with you that there is not enough info to judge here; probably this teacher did not choose a good discipline strategy; probably this kid is a pain in the a$$, probably these parents are out of touch, probably this teacher is out of her head with stress because she's not being backed up by her administrator, etc etc... who knows.

Teaching has been called 'the long apprenticeship' because everyone thinks they are an expert due to their 8, or 12, or whatever years they spent in school. Well, until you have that degree and have worked there, you don't know the professionality, work ethic, and heart that most teachers have. A teacher might suggest a child get checked medically due to some symptoms they've noticed; do you not think they can compare one kid to another and make an intelligent observation? Often the diagnosis is made WITH SUPPORT of teacher observations (God knows I've been asked to fill out enough questionnaires from pediatric drs, because they don't make full daily observations of their clients themselves!) not because a teacher said "this kid has adhd".

Well, I suppose I am :offtopic: , in the meantime, you're right about the avenues parents have when things are not going well. For a parent with their kid's best interest at heart, the media isn't the first resort. There are some bad teachers out there, but as someone who works to TEACH teachers, I have to say they do not go into this profession wanting to hurt kids. They may make mistakes through lack of knowledge or through frustration, and a GOOD administrator will work with newer or 'end of their rope' teachers to renew them and support them in their work, thereby supporting the kids.

CyberKitten
February 13th, 2007, 10:46 PM
I think you misunderstand what I said about my mom? She is an excellent teacher - her students all loved her and she was known as "the super teacher" by many in our province. I only quoted her once so I am at a loss to understand what you are referring too, a m also tired so maybe I don't get it. All I meant was her concern when she was a Director of Student Services and later a Superintendent that she had no time for teachers who were unwilling to take the time to help students with special needs be totally included in the school system.

At that time (she has been retired awhile now), it was called integration and NB still has one of the best in the country - it's held as a role model across the world. She still does some seminars on it mostly at univs in the US - New England, Fla and also in Europe.

When inclusion was 1st introduced, many teachers fought the notion.

I guess I also meant that she had no time (she does not suffer fools well and I guess I do not either but I am more tolerant than she is, I let my hair down more, lol) for teachers who do not do the very best they can. Anyone who does not like children has no place in any school she was in.

I realize she was not easy to work for - she is tough even as a mom (she is such a perfectionist in all she does but that;s another issue, you know, the old mothers and daughters thing) but I am immensely proud of her and for the hard work she did in bringing inclusion to NB and by extension to other regions.

I don't understand what's wrong with that. In my view, it is an admirable goal to include and treat every child as an equal. Anything less is absolutely wrong!!!! She also was respected by the 99% of the teachers she had the utmost respect for. I was referring to those very few who get the media attention, alas!!

That's what I was saying so I do not know what you are talking about???????????:confused: :shrug: :shrug:

I know it is a hard job - ppl think it's easy and that teachers "get the summer off" but that is such a monomer and not at all correct. They - at least here - (I realize it is different in other jurisdictions) get paid across a 10 months across a 12 mo. period). My mom got up at 6:30 AM or earlier and sometimes never got to bed till 1:30 am. And she had a family besides and a child with a plethora of medical problems - me - to cope with!! She had lesson plans and meetings and class trips (she once persuaded Air Canada to bring a class of hers across Canada for a geography lesson! - the airlines had more money then tho she paid for a lot of it herself. She loathed fundraising). My mom could be critical of teachers who did not do their job well and she was a superb mentor but she was also excellent at weeding out those teachers who were not cut out for the profession and God knows, there are unfortunately some who are not. (You can tell, if they hate kids for one thing). Then teachers have supervision, they must keep up with courses constantly - my mom wads always teaching or taking different courses (She had a PhD in Education but she began with a just a BEd and obtained her PhD as a mom!!), they must meet with and try to help parents and work with school boards and other organizations.

Even in Fla, she still works with immigrant kids, teaching English and helping immigrant kids especially prepare for the infamous FCATs even tho she herself is not much of a believer in teaching for the test. She prefers to teach the child - given that each child has a different modality for learning some of us are visual, some of us learn best using our auditory senses and others are more tactile. Most of us use all 3 but one tends to be dominant. Most of us my age learned visually even tho not everyone learned that way and she always prepared a separate plan for children who did not learn that way.

She also went above and beyond for disadvantaged children - buying school supplies and quietly (so that the other kids wold not notice) finding a way to get them the things they needed. And she mentored many young teachers who are still teaching. I could only hope to ever be like her - I will never be as much of a perfectionist as she is, never!

She was the first line of help for new teachers - she wished we had a mentor ship year for teachers like doctors have internships tho I really think internships need to be changed by that is another story and they are "improving". I always met all the new teachers because they were at our home where my mom would help them learn how to adjust to classroom strategies and ways of sing their strengths to achieve their goals as a teacher. She often went to other schools to mentor young teachers or to share new ideas and concepts with older ( prob should say veteran lest I get in trouble here) teachers. It is not easy being an administrator either. I never suggested she wanted to fire every teacher - where that came from I have no idea and if it came across like that I am sorry. I have had a very bad day so perhaps I am just not explaining myself well and my anger at fighting with the govt to pay for an expensive cancer drug for a dying child whose family cannot possibly afford it has taken its toll. (I take my work home with too much lately. I did win this one but why oh why is it so hard just to try to save one child's life? This is ridiculous!!!!!!!!!! - anyway, sorry to digress)

I could go on but I feel defensive - I was not even discussing her. I prob said one thing the wrong way. I think it was likely her frustration with teachers who did not want to take the time to learn how to do a good job or those people who were there just for the money. They are definitely the minority but alas, there are a few. I have fortunately had most wonderful teachers tho and as a teacher - albeit at a univ - I can only hope to be as inspiring as my mother was. I still meet people - from all backgrounds and especially students who others gave up on and she did not (would stay after school to ensure they "got" whatever it was they were having difficulty with) - who ask about her when I visit my home town or by chance meet someone she has taught.

I think I meant if - as a teacher, you were not prepared to give it your all - and it is a job that requires much work and commitment - and my sil and my brother both teach as well tho he works mainly in another area but teaches accounting at a community college and sil is a grade one teacher) - she helped you as much as she could, gave of herself completely. However, if you as a teacher just refused to put in the time or to treat children with respect or teach children values f compassion and caring as well as the essentials (which was a given) - then you were gone! She even fired my cousin, who was an elementary teacher when my mom was principal of the school she was at. My cousin was (is retired now)was better suited as a librarian and really did not relate well to children.

She is never afraid to give her opinion of what she thinks of me as well. My dad is the same so in my family, you had better measure up. Coming home with a less than perfect grade was not an option, lol (I recall coming home with 99, kind of happy about it and my mom asked me why I had not made 100, lol). But she would help me with my lessons every night (when I was younger) and then do her own lesson planning.

For my mom, ensuring children became better. knowledgeable and caring people thanks to good and and respectful teachers was of the utmost importance. If there is something wrong with that, I guess we'll have to respectfully disagree!

Prin
February 14th, 2007, 01:34 AM
I think a teacher giving psychological assessments/advice is like us, here, giving behavioral and health advice. Many of us have been around so many dogs/cats that we know when there is a problem or not and often we have a pretty good idea of what the problem is, whether we are a vet or not.

Experienced teachers have been around more kids than most family doctors have, and IMO, if they really care, they definitely would see a troubled child and offer to help.

What is up with this Dr vs psychologist/psychiatrist attitude all the time? I get that from my own drs too. Drs, shrinks, teachers, nurses, parents- they're all caregivers, so why can't they work together to provide the best care? Instead of belittling a teacher's opinion, why not consider it? The teacher may be way off, but IMO, just mentioning it should tell the Dr that this particular child needs some extra attention because something IS wrong and something is disrupting the child's performance at school.

Or is it just easier to say it's nothing and keep the visit at the short 6 minutes that is the average in Canada right now? :rolleyes:

phoenix
February 14th, 2007, 08:02 AM
My mom, who held several administrative posts in the education system, fired more than a few of these type of teachers and I never hesitate to tell parents what I think of a "diagnosis" by a teacher.


my mom granted would say hey [sic] are lazy

That is what I was talking about CK. Teachers who aren't performing are lazy... teachers who deigned to express their concern about a student and suggest a medical diagnosis were a 'type' to be fired...

Sounds like your mom had an illustrious career, and really I shouldn't be poking her, but rather your INTERPRETATION perhaps of what teachers are like through the stories that she chose to share with you. I stand by what I said earlier though. If she had "no time" for weak teachers then as an administrator she failed both those teachers in pursuing a fruitful career and the kids that had to suffer through those teachers. Bad teachers aren't usually born, they become, through frustration, bad treatment, even abuse by kids, parents and supposed leaders. You get kicked enough, you stay down, you know? There are always the exceptions (and maybe this particular teacher in question is one... I would be more likely to say this teacher either was given bad advice by someone or had run out of strategies, both can be fixed through good professional development and admin support.)

My mother was also a teacher and if I based my interpretation of kids on the stories she brought home, I'd think they were all hellions! But I know and understand that the stories she ended up telling were from her frustration in the worst cases.

Prin- EXACTLY :thumbs up I don't know anywhere that takes a teacher's word for a diagnosis, but almost always elementary teachers in particular are asked to fill out copious forms on kids who are in the progress of being diagnosed. Their help is *usually* sought out because of their expertise in child development AND their familiarity with kids in general. They generally spend far more time with a student than a dr does (neat stat!) and even the parent sometimes.

Golden Girls
February 14th, 2007, 08:16 AM
I agree I would be competely OUTRAGED!! This is unacceptable!! I'm not sure how a parent wouldn't know for 5 weeks this was happening especially seeing his twin was in the same class but that would probably be another matter in it's entirely. Most likely the child needed to be removed from the class for disruption maybe but to cage him :confused: I'd be more then outraged and this teacher needs to be reprimanded. If I were a parent of another child in her class, I'd pull them right out!

papillonmama
February 14th, 2007, 08:55 AM
I think a teacher giving psychological assessments/advice is like us, here, giving behavioral and health advice. Many of us have been around so many dogs/cats that we know when there is a problem or not and often we have a pretty good idea of what the problem is, whether we are a vet or not.

Experienced teachers have been around more kids than most family doctors have, and IMO, if they really care, they definitely would see a troubled child and offer to help.




While I don't agree with teachers making full assessments, they certainly are helpful when helping to explain learning situations that the child is in, Prin is right, they are around the kids far more than the doctor.

Honestly, I felt jaded when I took my kid to the doctor in hopes of getting a referal to see a psychologist for my daughter who was having serious problems learning. We hadn't seen this doctor in over a year, and the last time I had brough tmy daughter there was just for a quick check up and vaccine. She told me how schools weren't interested in teaching children these days and that the teachers want to pass the buck. i can see this being true in some instances, but i also know my child. I Know that if I work with her for four or five hours every day on something and she still can't get it, and after trying to explain it as many ways as possible, and if when she did get it, it was forgotten in less than five minutes, I think I can figure out that something is wrong.

THEN, the worse part, after our useless trip to the doctors, she calls the school to talk to the teacher and goes on to her about how the teachers aren't doing enough, there were about five teachers working with her at this point, then, she TELLS my kids teacher that she's probably doing drugs! she's ten, she was nine at the time, my kid doesn't do DRUGS. I walk her to school, I pick her up afterwards, Im' more involved in my kids life than most parents that I see at her school, and to tell a teacher that my kid is doing drugs, instead of the possibility of her having some sort of learning disability? What the Heck?


Personally I think there aree times when the doctor is wrong. Like the time that I went to the hospital because I was having chest pain and they told me it was probably heartburn, then not long after that I couldn't even breath because something was very wrong with my gallbladder. Just because a person is learned in their own profession doesn't mean that they shouldn't take the time to look a little closer, or listen to people who might have some useful input, and maybe even accept that they might be wrong sometimes, we are human after all.

As you can probably see, Yes I would be mad, if instead of trying to help my kid they just put her in the corner and told her not to be a part of class, yeah I would be mad, instead of putting the kid farther, why wasn't the kid put closer to the teacher? That's what used to happen to us when we were kids, if you were too disruptive, you had to move your desk in front of the teachers desk.


That's was just my :2cents:

luckypenny
February 14th, 2007, 12:10 PM
OK, for what it's worth, my :2cents: .

Crate training for kids....


(wink wink, nudge nudge...)

At the risk of sounding offensive to some, there's actually alot of truth to this.

Without going into too much detail, our son has severe behavioral/mood disorders. We work with his teachers, principal, behavioral technician, and psychiatrist keeping both his and his classmates best interests at the forefront of any measures we choose to implement in the classroom.

In his case, the "cage" consisted of three-sided, 5 foot high, moveable office walls, the opening situated behind him. It was explained to my son, his classmates, and us that this was not for use as punishment, rather a tool to be used in a positive manner. At first I was reluctant and my son did not quite know what to make of it. When asked what he thought of it after day 2 and day 3, he said he kind of liked "my new office" (this is what he and his classmates decided to refer to it as). He was made to understand what it would take of him to have the walls removed. He had to remain calm, keep his emotions in check, concentrate, and have his in-class assignments completed in time (with support from his teacher, of course). Because the use of these walls were explained to the rest of the class, the students did not tease him but rather supported him in his efforts to make some changes. Within 1 1/2 weeks, my son made the decision that he no longer needed the walls and was ready to participate fully in class activities. This method doesn't solve all problems but does address particular difficulties a child is having in the classroom.

Can you see the similarities with crate-training? When applied appropriately, it's used as a learning tool and, more often than not, successfully. When applied inappropriately, such as leaving a dog in it for extended periods of time because owners just can't be bothered, well, all sorts of problems can arise.

Sounds like that's what happened in this situation. Sadly, neither side could have been bothered. Both the school and the parents ought to get it together, for the child's sake!

CyberKitten
February 14th, 2007, 10:03 PM
I give up - all of you are not getting what I am saying!! My mother helped weak teachers more than the good ones, who usually need help too but in a different way. Maybe I did not communicate it well but I'll be honest here. I feel like I am being picked on for no good and honest reason. I spend 120 hrs a week working with kids. I see what goes on - I do not always agree with my mom (Oh boy, do I not, lol). And yes, she could be imperious and maybe Lazy was the wrong term to use - it seems I am dammed if I say one thing, dammed if I say another. I know no other teacher who was a better mentor - she did not have the easiest life. No good teacher does, you know that.

but let's also be honest and admit that there is that 1% and I did say that - who do not work out. That's ALL I said and I get slammed for it. I am sorry but I think I need a break from a place so judgmental and not willing to listen.

Prin, in the school systm, teachers and psychologists DO work together - and social workers and doctors. There are case conferences galore. Each child who needs one has an ISP or IEP - they all have different acronyms in different jurisdictions do I won't get into that. There are bound to be some who do not get along but for the most part I've seen them get along. Adding language to the mix was a bit of a problem at times though - French and English I mean, ie a French psychologist doing psychometric tests on an Anglophone child who did not understand him or vice versa. It should not be and issue but in when the politics of language simmers below the surface, that adds more probs to the mix. I just do not think teachers should be suggesting medication just because it may have helped other children. I would not even do that - I would do a medical workup first!!

I stand by my mom's outcomes and the fact that even teachers who she helped find other careers even liked her. But I'd like to know how saying 1% pf the teachers may have problems in that job makes her whatever was said, a bad administrator. I know no teacher who worked as hard as she did and she wanted to leave a school once and they refused to let her move, telling her she was the only oe holding the school together. Keep in mind when she began teaching, she taught 50 kids in a one room school and ending up in the eighties with a PhD. And she did not live in a city with a univ next door.

Anyway - I'll admit I am upset. my words have been so misunderstood and taken out of contest - I don't think deliberately but still, it frustrates me. I work hard to help kids and I do not appreciate ppl who do not claiming to know it all. I wo0uld love to be as good as my mom but I'll never make it - she was too dedicated, too perfectionist but at least she is a model to aspire to. I refuse to aspire to less and refuse to allow my words to be manipulated so they sound completely different. One can take two sentences and make it sound completely different and what is the point of that. Should we not all just want to help children?????

Anyway -maybe I need a break from this place. It is becoming a little too mean spirited and I have no desire to be treated unkindly and end up ion tears. I have a tough enough and psychologically enough demanding job as it is and I need to stay well to ensure I stay alive. That may sound simple but for me, it's not!

Taking a very deep breath and trying not to cry....................

(I do not wish any of you to have to watch children die and then come to a site for fun and be slammed and have it add to one's stress. I don't understand why we have to be so confrontational here!, I just don't!)

I would just once like to discuss my own problems but I don't dare because I have this feeling it would somehow come out sounding as if I did something wrong. I do try to be understanding of others here, why am I not accorded the same understanding? Anyway - that's my rant for the nite. I stand by what I said but you all (as they say in Dixie) have completely misunderstood it and nothing I say will make a difference because it seems as tho no one wants to listen but merely pick slective pieces and tear them apart. If I have miscommunicated what I was tryting to say, I am sorry. I am not feeling well so that does not help. Perhaps one should not fight one's own cancer and treat iot at the same time but if that's the case, please lobby the govt to pat for more seats in med school tho that won't change anything overnight nor do all grads go into oncology. (which means we are facing a huge crisis!).

Anyway - I am getting way off topic because I am too upset!

meb999
February 15th, 2007, 07:47 AM
I'm really sorry you feel that way CK....but I've been rereading this thread over and over, and I really don't see where anyone was being mean-spirited towards you. Everyone has different opinions, because they have different experiences, you can't take everything as a personnal attack.

OntarioGreys
February 15th, 2007, 08:52 AM
CK I do understand what you are saying, and your Mom sound like a great person, and a good support for a young teacher who may be struggling a bit with her students. And yes what you described with parents, teachers, doctor, pyschologists working together is how things should be for the best interest of the child especially one with learning difficulties, sadly it is not always the case. The incident in the OP posts did not work that way, the parents were not brought in by the teacher, no doctor, no psychologists either were involved and this is where my upset came in, because there is a procedure that should have been taken and wasn't, and to make matters worse the school administrators supported the teachers actions

With my son this was an incident that occured 20 years ago well before the introduction of the special education integration into the school system in Ontario, I know that because a few years later I was working on writing the computer software program for it for the Waterloo county public school board, it involved alot of different areas, be it a child in fostercare, single families, from abusive homes, involved in drugs/alcohol , disabled/handicapped, learning difficulties, in trouble with the law, the aggressive child, etc. And I know it was not just teachers that were fighting it, but parents as well who were concerned that the integration would hinder their childs education.

luckypenny your story is an example of how the system is supposed to work, and it was done in a manner to protect your childs self esteem and with your involvement and with involving his classmates so that he is not made to feel like and outcast and subjected to ridicule and taunting or being beaten up for being different simply because he has a harder time focusing and concentrating.

Golden Girls
February 15th, 2007, 06:32 PM
I've also worked for a school board specifically in the psychology department so I know how teachers do report children that have difficulties and how hard sometimes their job is when students are disruptive and even rude. I couldn't imagine doing their job but from my experience the teachers, administrators and child psychologists usually do a wonderful job in trying to help the child that may have disabilities and the testing is highly accurate. I agree with you CK they do work together!

This story doesn't seem right.