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Where do I start ??

Winston
February 8th, 2007, 08:14 AM
Hello Forum Members!

After reading many many threads on problems and various dog foods I am convinced I need to not trust my vet any longer with regards to dog food knowledge!!! Here is a bit of history...

My Chocolate Lab from puppyhood until now (he is 7)...has had skin problems...he will scratch...has dry skin..and would get round patches that almost looked like an over sized chicken pox...We started the painstaking trials of removing each type of meat from his meals...We tried chicken, then beef etc etc..It did not go away until I put him on vet food..It is Hills Hypoallergenic.(duck and potato)...This worked well for awhile..but then I lost my belief it was the food when I saw the spots return occasionally..However I kept him on it because the vet said it was good food for him.and he liked it ....About 3 months ago he went through a serious bout of diarrea...We checked for parasites, thyroid test, and a complete set of blood work..everything came back normal.

Once again the vet reccomended a food change to Hills Canine Gastro Formula......My dog seems to have adjusted okay to it except that his stools are huge now! he poops more frequently...and his tummy is really loud some days! I can hear it sqeeking and gurgling sometimes..(and he is not hungry when it sounds like this!). The vet seemed to think the gastro will work because my dog also appears to be very sensitive to food changes or anything out of the ordinary...

I can feed him vegetables and fruit and no problem but if I gave him a tiny little piece of meat from the table he would have diarrea!! he seems very sensitive to any form of table scraps..

So any advise on where to start would be helpful! Here is the info from the side of his bag of dog food! Please keep in mind I have no idea what should be in the food and what should not be!

Category Ingrediants
Protein: high quality, easily digestible Lamb, potato, egg

Fat
Reduced Fat
Omega 3 fatty acids Flax, fish oil
Omega 6 fatty acids Chicken, primrose oil

Carbohydrates
Highly digestible mixed grains Corn, rice

Fibre
Low Fibre
optimal soluable-insoluable fibre ratio Pea Fibre

Special Ingrediants

Digestive aids, gut health Fructo-Oligosaccharides
Lecithin, citrus acid

Digestive Enzyme Bacillus Subtillis Dried
Fermentation Extract
Amino acid, gut health L-Glutamine
Antioxidents Beta Carotene, vitamin E,
Absorbic acid, organic Selenium
Fat metabolism L-Carnitine
Chelated minerals Iron Bioplex, copper bioplex,
Zinc Bioplex

List of Ingrediants

Corn, brewers rice, lamb meal, potato protein, dried whole egg, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, rosemary extract, citric acid and lecithin) flax meal, minerals (potassium cholride, monosodium phosphate, sodium chloride, ferrous sulfate, iron bioplex, zinc oxide, zinc bioplex, copper sulfate, copper bioplex, managanous oxide, calcium iodate, cobalt chloride and organix selenium) fish oil, pea fibre, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin e, bitamin a, d-calcium pantothenate, inositol, niacin, ribflavin, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, beta carotene, abscorbic acid, vitamin d3, folic acid, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfate complex and b12) Fructo-Oligosaccharides, Bacillus Subtilis Dried Fermentation Extract, Primrose oil, L-Carnitine and L-Glutamine.

Guarnteed analysis

Crude Protein min 20.0% Ash max 7.0%
Crude Fat min 8.0% Calcium min 1.0%
Crude Fibre max 3.0$ Phospherus min 0.8%
Moisture max 10.00%


Sorry for the length of this post!

Cindy

billyp
February 8th, 2007, 08:31 AM
this is a very low quality food...
First off the food you feed him shouldn't contain any CORN whatsoever since dogs don't digest corn...it jsut goes through like almost any veggies since dogs are carnivore...
If you want a lamb based meal try CANIDAE lamb and rice...it is a hich quality kibble and don't ever trust a vet that sells the food he carries in his office..

Hunter's_owner
February 8th, 2007, 08:41 AM
I agree, this food has very little meat in it whatsoever. You would be better off, imo, switching to something else.:shrug:

technodoll
February 8th, 2007, 08:42 AM
Corn, brewers rice, lamb meal, potato protein, dried whole egg, chicken fat

Guarnteed analysis

Crude Protein min 20.0%
Crude Fat min 8.0%

:eek: :eek: OMG this food is a joke... a sad joke that is costing you alot of money and costing your dog to suffer needlessly. Dogs, plain and simple, are carnivores (only "adapated omnivores" since we force them to eat grains). But by nature's definition of dentition, digestive tract, enzymes, etc: they are carnivores through and through. this means they do the best on a diet of meat, and lots of meat. RAW meat - cooking denatures the proteins and destroys many essential nutrients and live enzymes. But anyways... never, ever feed your pet any food that contains corn (btw it's the whole ear, leaves, husk, cob and all... you don't think a bunch of workers stand around and shuck ears of corn do you? humans don't eat that stuff, and it's not even good in compost so...). Brewer's rice is simply the leftovers after the alcohol industry is finished with the raw whole product.. yep. they make alcohol, strain the liquid, and the remaining stinky "rice" is trucked off to cheap petfood companies :yuck:

you can bet that a company like Hills won't invest in quality lamb either, it's again meat and bone leftovers after the good stuff has been carved off for human consumption. what is potato protein? why not whole potatoes? dogs need proteins from meat, not potatoes, corn and rice :mad:

Dogs need a LOT more protein than 20% (which is ridiculously low, specially considering that the protein is mostly from vegetables) and 8% fat will do nothing to promote good health or a good coat. it's amazing dogs don't drop dead of nutitional deficiencies by age 5 from this crap!

anyways. you can either switch your boy on a better kibble like Innova EVO or EVO RM (red meat), Solid Gold's Barking at the Moon, Natural Prairie's Raw Instinct, etc. No grains just meats. go slowly with the transition, add a broad-spectrum digestive enzyme like Prozyme, some plain yogurt is good too. There will be soft poops at first while your boy adjusts to the change but in the end it's for the best.

If you really want to feed him a diet that may prolong his life, eliminate arthritis, allergies, doggy odor, promote the best shiny soft coat and white teeth and reeeeaaallly small firm perfect poops... head on over to the raw feeding section of this forum and check it out. you'll be amazed. :goodvibes:

Winston
February 8th, 2007, 12:22 PM
Okay guys! where do I start? I have no clue what food to even try? Can these foods be bought in a pet store ?? If I have had problems in the past with chicken, beef, lamb etc...how do I know what to buy? I am stummped!

Cindy

Spirit
February 8th, 2007, 12:38 PM
Natural Balance makes a vegetarian formula, if you're convinced meat is the problem. Some dogs do really well on it (Dalmations in particular, due to their sensitivities to meat).

http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/Vegetarian.html#Product

Winston
February 8th, 2007, 01:10 PM
Thanks Spirit! The issue is I dont know if it really is the meat? As I said before I did try him on just chicken, then just beef etc but the rash was always there! So on the advise of the vert I have been feeding him what they prescribe?? (I guess what I have learned out of all of this is the the vets have no clue about the food they prescribe!) I have tried him on vegetarian food and he had diarrea but that could be from the change in food?? Oh well I guess I will just have to keep him on this food until I can figure this out???

Cindy

vision
February 8th, 2007, 01:27 PM
:ca: I currently own a Great Dane that has the same problem. our vet has recommended tha we shampoo his spots, with a two week supply of antibotics...this was after two skin scrapings that came out negative(which is a good thing). So my husband and I taken things into our own hands
With ever meal (which is twice a day) we add one vitamin e tablet and some omega 3 oil to their meal... this does help to some degree we notice that it is only bad in the winter months when the weather is dry....

Good luck and hopefully someone out there has a cure......

Spirit
February 8th, 2007, 01:55 PM
Thanks Spirit! The issue is I dont know if it really is the meat? As I said before I did try him on just chicken, then just beef etc but the rash was always there! So on the advise of the vert I have been feeding him what they prescribe?? (I guess what I have learned out of all of this is the the vets have no clue about the food they prescribe!) I have tried him on vegetarian food and he had diarrea but that could be from the change in food?? Oh well I guess I will just have to keep him on this food until I can figure this out???

Cindy

In situations like this, you don't really have a choice but to find a food that works and stick with it. Even if it means putting him on a horrible safeway brand food.

I would suggest first that you eliminate EVERYTHING (no treats, no table scraps, etc) but his kibble. Switch him to a food he was already on and doing "not too badly" on, and after a week with NO extras, see if anything's changed. Otherwise, switch him (slowly) to a simple food like Natural Balance Venison and Brown Rice, and stick with it for a while. Switching foods is hard on your dogs stomach, so you want to do this as little as absolutely possitble.

Stay away from chicken (if chicken isn't a main ingredient, chicken fat is, so read your labels carefully), and find something simple. The reason I like products like "duck and potato", is that there is nothing else in it. It's DUCK, POTATO, and added vitamins and minerals. There's no fruit or veggies... one protein, one grain.

Another food like Evo could benefit if grains are the allergy trigger (Evo is grain free), but again, you're looking at more than one protien source as well as fruit and veggies.

We have a few dogs that come into my work with skin problems, and these poor owners have spent THOUSANDS of dollars on tests and various remedies, as well as switching their foods, allergy tests, etc... One dog that comes to our work on a weekly basis is a little white, uuuhhh... malti-poo, I think she is... but I digress. The damn dog is allergic to human dander!! Over $8,000 of tests later, one shot a month is all it takes to stop the rashes and hot spots.

It could be just about anything, so don't assume right off the bat that it's the food. Monitor your dog caefully and see if you can pinpoint when it gets worse. It could even be that he's allergic to your perfume.

Winston
February 8th, 2007, 03:04 PM
Thanks Spirit! I had better luck on the Hills Hypoallergenic.(which is Duck & Potato) ...the spots rarely come out! but again I do not think it is food! I do not feed him anything other than kibble..he cannot seem to stand anything else! I even make his dog cookies for him because they do not have all the additives! But even cookies I only use them to give him a treat occasionally...I think he has allergy's to our environment..but I dont know what in the environment it is?? His nose drips all the time!

People talk about all these brands of food? where do they get them? at a pet store? or do they have to order from somewhere special? What is EVo? sorry I am not familiar with some of the terms used?

Cindy

breeze
February 8th, 2007, 03:06 PM
can dogs grow out of allergy's like kids do ??

rainbow
February 8th, 2007, 04:13 PM
People talk about all these brands of food? where do they get them? at a pet store? or do they have to order from somewhere special? What is EVo? sorry I am not familiar with some of the terms used?

They are available at locally owned pet stores. EVO is Innova's grain free formula made by Naturapet ( www.naturapet.com ).

If your dog did well on duck and potato you could try Natural Balance potato and duck formula. It's ingredients are much better than Hills.

rainbow
February 8th, 2007, 04:24 PM
I just remembered Natural Balance has citric acid in their food which can be bad if your dog is prone to bloat.

Have you ever tried him on a fish based food? Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue is a good choice but may be too expensive. California Natural Herring and Sweet Potato (also made by Naturapet) is good with minimal ingredients which is good for dogs with allergies.

Spirit
February 8th, 2007, 04:43 PM
I second Natural Balance Duck and Potato. It's very similar to Hills, but without all the additional fillers.

As for the citric acid. if your dog IS prone to bloat, don't let your dog drink ANY water around dinner time as this can make it worse.

I deal with dogs that have "allergies" on a regular basis, and contrary to popular belief, food is rarely the trigger (in my experience), though it often does contribute.

What do you bathe him with? Is there cedar in your backyard? Do you have old carpets? What do you use to clean your hardwood floors? do you wash his bed with detergent or fabric softener (if so, what)?

Many questions to be asked here. ;)

Winston
February 8th, 2007, 04:55 PM
I second Natural Balance Duck and Potato. It's very similar to Hills, but without all the additional fillers.

As for the citric acid. if your dog IS prone to bloat, don't let your dog drink ANY water around dinner time as this can make it worse.

I deal with dogs that have "allergies" on a regular basis, and contrary to popular belief, food is rarely the trigger (in my experience), though it often does contribute.

What do you bathe him with? Is there cedar in your backyard? Do you have old carpets? What do you use to clean your hardwood floors? do you wash his bed with detergent or fabric softener (if so, what)?

Many questions to be asked here. ;)


HI

I am not sure what bloat is..?? Is that when the tummy turns ?? I can only seem to use an oatmeal bath with him..I tried regular dog shampoo that looked like baby shampoo and he was dried out after that.....there are cedar trees in the backyard behind us?? We removed the carpets in our house last year and we have hardwood floors..the carpet removal was wonderful because Winston would vomit and I was forever cleaning carpets!! I do wash his bed with tide and usually I use bounce sheets??

As soon as the furnace comes on he begins to scratch.....and scratch!...sometimes the vet has put him on prednisone to stop him from being uncomfortable scratching...I have noticed that his coat looks good but he has areas where it is dry..especially around the shoulder area..if you call it the shoulder??

I tried flax seed oil before and it gave him the diarrea.....I changed his food to fish food and he refused to eat the fish! (mind you once again it was the vet food!!) Years ago I tried Doctor Maggies but I did not notice any change ...like you said so many questions????? Unfortunately that is why I always went with what the vet reccomended....but after reading everyting in this forum I have questions once again!! I dont mind paying for the food..it costs me $90.00 bag now....

P.S I have often wondered if he is allergic to my 2 cats?

Cindy

Spirit
February 8th, 2007, 05:11 PM
P.S I have often wondered if he is allergic to my 2 cats?

LOL! Well if a dog can be allergic to human dander, I see no reason why not cats.

As for the above (cedar, tide, bounce, etc), eliminate all possible. Wash his bed in just water, or use a MILD soap (like something you would use for babies), and not much of it (capful). Tide is pretty strong and bounce is even stronger, so I would eliminate these two immediately.

The furnace seems to be a pretty major trigger, so I would also reccommend cleaning or replacing the filter to an "ultra allergen filter" (or similar).

In extreme cases like this, I find that the most effective way, though not always the easiest, is to clean, protect, and eliminate. Even writing things down might help (like after you washed his bed and the itching got worse).

If your dog goes... let's say 2 days without a hot spot or itching, then you can reintroduce things (perfumes, treats, etc) one by one, and see if your dog reacts.

Do a search on bloat. It will give you more information than anyone here can.

Winston
February 8th, 2007, 05:35 PM
Thank you Spirit! I never really thought about the tide & bounce...but good advice....As for the furnace it seems to me to be the heat in the house....the dryness...we do take good care of the furnace...but we will have to try to rule these things out! Do you know if the allergy tests they do on dogs is one that would provide any useful info? like specifics? maybe that would tell me if it is the cats as well?? The drippy nose seems to make me think it is something in the household...

I just remembered as well that we used to think in the summer he was allergic to the grass...or even the lawn fertilizer...so now we dont use the fertilizer anymore! he still gets the rash/spots with or without the fertilizer .........like you said so many questions??

Regardless I have learned that the food I have been advised to give him is not good! That is discouraging considering the vets reccomend this stuff??

Thanks again! I appreciate all the comments..

Cindy

Spirit
February 8th, 2007, 05:48 PM
Glad I could help.

Cedarwood oil, used in small amounts, is a natural flea and tick repellant (it's used in some dog soaps or sprays).

But the more concentrated oils from cedar wood (ie. cedar mulch, or a tree), is a skin irritant for humans. Any gardener knows that if you stick your hand in a pile of this stuff, your skin will usually swell up with little red welts and itch like crazy (similar to fiberglass), so if you have a lot of cedar in your backyard, keep your dog away from this as well, until you can rule it out.

barkley21
February 8th, 2007, 05:48 PM
Have you ever considered mold to be the culprit? I say that because you mentioned that he scratches like crazy when the furnace comes on. Our pup had the same issue and our vet was quite sure it was due to mold (we live in a pretty old house). Apparently the mold lies dormant in the furnace but once you turn it on, it is dispensed into the air. Also, many people use humidifiers in the winter to dampen the air in their house, but this makes the problem with mold even worse because mold thrives in moist environments. Is your house quite old by any chance?
Also, even if these allergies are not food related, I would highly recommend switching from the vet food regardless of what the vet tells you about how good it is for them. Technodoll is right...dogs are carnivores and need MEAT...not corn and veggies. Your dog is having large stools from this kibble because he's not absorbing anything from the food and it's all coming out the other end. I would highly recommend a raw diet as well. It's healthy, nutritious, species appropriate, and has absolutely no fillers or additives of any kind....only mother nature's work at its finest :thumbs up

Spirit
February 8th, 2007, 06:46 PM
Technodoll is right...dogs are carnivores and need MEAT...not corn and veggies.

Actually, cats are carnivores. Dogs are omnivores, and will often eat a herbivore, or another omnivore in the wild.

Scott_B
February 9th, 2007, 06:26 AM
Actually, cats are carnivores. Dogs are omnivores, and will often eat a herbivore, or another omnivore in the wild.

I disagree. Dogs are not omnivores. They are carnivors by nature. Look at their teeth. They do not have teeth for chewing plants. Bears are omnivores. Bears' molar teeth are broad, flat and are used to shred and grind plant food into small digestible pieces. Dogs do not have these teeth. Nor do they have the digestive system of a omnivore.

That said, dogs can eat veggies & fruit, but they thrive on meat, organs and bones. You say they often eat a herbibore or omnivore. Well, sure. Thats because they're meat organs and bones. And they don't eat the stomach contants. They shake them out. No doubt they would get a small amount of plant matter, but not near enough to say they are omnivores.

Spirit
February 9th, 2007, 11:09 AM
:sorry: :offtopic: I'll clarify, but let's keep this tiopic on thread.

they thrive on meat, organs and bones

Of course they do, but don't forget that wolves (a carnivore by nature) eat a LOT of plant material. Whether it comes from grazing in a field or from the intestines of their prey, they do consume more than just meat. If fresh kill is not easily available, they will also consume things like worms, grasshoppers, or berries and fruit as part of their natural diet. Animals they hunt are more often than not, omnivoes. The first thing they go for is the stomach and intestines. When they're done, they move on to the "meat", bones and organs.

Also, the canine BARF has less meat protein than feline (canine = 65% meat, feline = 95% meat - on average). Meat, organ, bones, veggies and often fruits. Ratio is usually 2:1. The grain free thing throws me because of their natural diet (see below), but that's another topic altogether.

Omnivores are defined as an animal which eats both meat and plants. Carnivore is defined as an animal who eats mainly meat.

I guess you can say that dogs are carnvores with omnivore characteristics, but it can get confusing when you take a supposed meat eater, who eats plant (and meat) eaters. Depending on who you ask, or where you look, you'll get conflicting information.

We have a booklet at work (explaining the BARF diet) that goes into great detail about 'cats vs dogs' and 'omnivores vs carnivores'. I don't 100% understand it (the whole thing confuses me, and don't even get me started on grain free). Not that it matters. You couldn't pay me to feed my dog raw. But that's the bottom line, anyway.

:)

jiorji
February 9th, 2007, 11:21 AM
Of course they do, but don't forget that wolves (a carnivore by nature) eat a LOT of plant material. Whether it comes from grazing in a field or from the intestines of their prey, they do consume more than just meat.

i've yet to see a wolf grazing in a field;)

Scott_B
February 9th, 2007, 11:37 AM
Well, i don't feed a Barf diet. I feed and promote a raw diet. The Barf diet puts too much emphasis on bones & veggies. 80% meat, 10-15% bones and 5-10% organs is what i feed. No veggies (other then treats) and no grains, other then the cookies they get.

Wolves do go for the stomach area first, but they shake out the contents. But I'm sure they will get some plant mater. And yes, I've read that they will graze on grass, however they do not get any nutritional benefits from it. Plant walls are made of Cellulose and dogs cannot break this down. Thats why with a Barf diet you have to grind the veggies to break down the cellulose. Well, if a dog cant chew grass then how could it possibly get any nutritional benefit from it? Same with berries. I can give my pup blue berries and they come out pretty much the same way they went in.

Worms & grasshoppers are still meat.

but it can get confusing when you take a supposed meat eater, who eats plant (and meat) eaters

I'm not sure what your point is here? Why is it confusing because a carnivore eats a omnivore? Thats the way its been. Birds will eat seeds and worms, or other bugs, and cats eat them. Seems normal to me. A carnivore is an animal that eats meat. Doesn't matter what kind of meat, herbivore or omnivore. meat is meat.

I will agree, there has been debate over what dogs are, as they can eat fruits & veggies when processed for them, and survive, unlike cats, who need meat. However more and more people are realizing that they are indeed carnivores.

gypsy_girl
February 9th, 2007, 12:58 PM
Generally using a protein source (whether plant based or meat based) that the dog has NEVER been exposed to before is the key to managing food allergies. This can sometimes means familial exposure as well (mom dad etc)
Just an FYI a "food allergy" is immune system based, whereas an intollerance is not. Sometimes intollerances exhibit as scratching, gas etc.
WHen searching for a food, the fat source DOES not need to be looked at, as IT IS a different molecular structure than protein, and does not cause a reaction. This would not be the case in some of the new foods that are using species specific collagen, you need to watch out for those, as they are a protein (not really usable) but still on the radar in a testing sense.
Here is a great website regarding testing, it also has an article regarding molecular structure (dalton weight) of fat sources.
www.vetallergy.com

Spirit
February 9th, 2007, 03:03 PM
i've yet to see a wolf grazing in a field;)

Sarcasm, my dear. ;)

OntarioGreys
February 9th, 2007, 03:22 PM
Omnivores are defined as an animal which eats both meat and plants. Carnivore is defined as an animal who eats mainly meat.



The key word is "mainly", they are carnivore, watch a cheetah or lion with a prey animal they caught , they also rip open the belly and eat the contents of the stomach first, the reason is the contents of the prey animal stomach that contains digestive enzymes which aids in digesting the meat and bones, one of the reasons green tripe is reccomend when feeding raw diets or feeding whole prey animal like rabbits.

Ryan's Pet Foods (Hamilton): 50 Dundurn St E. - 905-528-2775
Ryan's Pet Foods (Stoney Creek): 184 Hwy 8 - 905-662-0904
Cindy, you will be able to find most of the premium foods at these stores

Do not feed any treats or table scraps when trying a new food for at least a month if the food agree, only introduce one treat in a 2wk period,

start with a food with simple ingredients ( one protien, one carb)
this will help you indentify potential allergies or food intolerances, keep a diary of the foods you tried with the ingredient list incuded
You may want to pick up some digestive enzymes as well to help with the food changes

If you chose Canidae

try the lamb and rice formula, if you have problems it could be the lamb, so then try the chicken and rice formula, if still troubles well both have rice in common so meat may be okay, so next step would be to find a riceless food.
So now go to the Natural Balance line, look for a food that has a different meat and carb Duck and Potato or sweet potato and fish,


If you can try each food for at least a month, to give his body time to adjust to the food, if you try all 4 foods and still have problems, chances are it is not a food allergy

Winston
February 9th, 2007, 08:19 PM
Hello again...I went out this evening and bought a new food...Please share your thoughts on it as I will post the ingrediants..Thanks

Cindy

Dick Van Pattens Natural
Duck & Potato

Ingred
Potato, duck,duck meal, canola oil, potato fiber, dl-methionine, l-lysine, sodium chloride, salmon oil, flaxseed oil, rosemary extract, natural flavor, yucca schidigera exctract, potassium chloride, chloride, choline choloride, vitamin e supplement, ferous sulphide, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, potassium iodide, thiamine monostrate, manganese proteriate, zinc sulphate, vitamin a supplement, biotin, calcium, vitamin b6, b12 d3, vitamin k

It says on the bag

no artificial preservatives, no flavors or colors..does not contain cornm soy, wheat,rice,eggs or dairy products...

Winston did reasonably well on duck and potato in the Hills Hypoallergenic blend...

He pooped way less as well.

Cindy

gypsy_girl
February 9th, 2007, 09:09 PM
Hi

I would prefer to see a meat or meal (llike duck, vension etc) as the 1st ingredient, HOWEVER when you are dealing with allergies finding something that works is the ticket.
Good luck:fingerscr

Winston
February 11th, 2007, 10:49 AM
Well ...1 full day on the Natural Balance Duck and Potato...Last night I was pleased to see a good formed poop! (sorry for the description) and thought the food transition was going to go well...until todays poop! soft in the beginning and then balance liquid! my poor boy! I always feel so bad for him when food changes happen because it always affects him! I am really hoping that the change will work..

I feel so bad to think I have been feeding him crap! all this time! and what makes it worse is that it came from a vet!! I was reading the vet allergy link that Spirit posted and it was informative! I have to say this is the description of Winston to a tee!! with nothing left out!

The classic signs of an allergic animal begin with scratching, feet licking and chewing and face rubbing. As the allergies become more severe, the chewing may eventually lead to bacterial skin problems, although it is not uncommon for them to cause vomiting and diarrhea.

The last time I had him in to the vet they suggested he could have an Endoscopy to see what is going on?? They also suggested I could do an allergy test. I was a little surprised at the quote for an allergy test!! $600.00. Does that sound like the price for that? I have no idea??

I was thinking of giving him an immodium today to help with the diarrea but not sure if I should considering I am currently changing his food??

Cindy

phoenix
February 11th, 2007, 11:42 AM
Hi Cindy,
I hope this works for you! You are definitely doing the right thing. But don't give up after just a day (it takes weeks for things to balance out... give his body some time to get used to things and clear out the old stuff from his system).
When my dogs have some trouble I give them a tablespoon of pure pumpkin (from a can, not pie filling). This helps them to firm things up. If you give too much though, this can cause the opposite effect! Also, since you are trying to eliminate things from the diet and not add them, you might just wait it out.

About carnivores-- cats are obligate carnivores. Dogs can extract protein from other sources, but far less efficiently than meat sources- they are still carnivores, just not obligate- so they can survive on a veg diet but it is not ideal or efficient. They can't extract nutrient from grasses etc, like herbivores can. Eating an omnivore or a herbivore does not an omnivore make, Spirit... Eating animals as the primary diet = carnivore, doesn't matter what the prey ate. The trace amount of vegetation, particularly from a grass eater, would just pass through the system.

Scott_B
February 11th, 2007, 11:50 AM
Exactly Phonix :thumbs up

Winston, have you switched him over slowly or just changed foods? Some dogs can handle a full change. Others need to mix slowly to avoid cannon butt.

Winston
February 11th, 2007, 12:19 PM
No...I mix the food...it does not seem to matter the quanitity of change ....Winston is funky with change! A few years ago before going with hypo food I had to try each meat product with him for a month at a time and thats why he ended up with Duck because he seemed to tolerate it better than anything else..I just have to wait it out!

Last night to make him a little more comfortable from scratching I gave him a worm cloth bath...on his face and his tummy...he seemed to really enjoy the warm cloth on his face! It did help with the amount of scratching for awhile..I wish I could lather him up in something but he would just lick it off! Oh well, hoping the food works!! His coat has 2 primary dry areas that are a bit lighter in color..I brushed him out and you can tell the fur is much dryer in those 2 spots..

Cindy

Prin
February 11th, 2007, 05:40 PM
Here's all you need to know about bloat:
http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm#Breeds%20At%20Greatest%20Riskou

About the dog carnivore thing- I just think every dog is different. If your dog drools and begs for carrots, lettuce and broccoli, then listen. Some dogs seem to need more veg than others. :shrug:

meb999
February 11th, 2007, 08:11 PM
First off, good for you for making a switch to a better quality food....DVP is not only a better food, but it's in a complete other category!!

I feel so bad to think I have been feeding him crap! all this time! and what makes it worse is that it came from a vet!!
Don't feel bad....we've all been there, and what's important is that you are educating yourself and care about your dogs health. Good for you!

I agree with the pumkin filling idea that Phoenix posted, it helps firm things up.

It took me one year to find a good quality food for Buster. You have to expect the splats for a little while because your dog has been eating a food that had chemical digestive aids, and now his body has to learn to digest on it's own.

The best advice I can give you is to SLOWLY make the switch over, and to stick to it for at least a month. Give your pooch sometime to adjust.

If things are still very...ummmm...un-pick-up-able, then you write down the list of ingredients of your food and buy a food that doesn't have any of those (different meat source, etc) --> this is called an elimination diet. It took Buster and I over a year to figure out that he can't digest corn, chicken or barley, and ever since I've had him on a food that has neither of those ingredients, things have been amazing.

Here's a link to a list of dog foods and their ingredients -- http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=28957 -- it helps to see them all side by side to compare.

Good luck :thumbs up

meb999
February 11th, 2007, 08:15 PM
as for the RAW vs KIBBLE, well as you can see it's an ongoing argument on this board :D I love the idea of a raw diet, but my dog just couldn't digest it :shrug: Every dog is different, and we just try to do our best :2cents:

rainbow
February 11th, 2007, 10:20 PM
"Every dog is diifferent" is so right....that's why it's so hard to recommend a specific dog food.

Scott_B
February 12th, 2007, 05:24 AM
Thats so true. Food can only do so much as well. Genetics play a huge roll in health. And in the wild, only the strong survive.

Winston
February 12th, 2007, 07:07 AM
Hello

Winston had a rough night last night....he had me up at 3:30am to do his business...still liquidy this morning! Going out to pick up some pumpkin...this has worked in the past. I usually give him a bit of rice to firm him up but I did not want to mix that with the new food (duck & potato)..

Hopefully only a few more days for the initial shock on his sytem..

Cindy

meb999
February 12th, 2007, 10:40 AM
I'm sorry Winston is having such a rough time. If the pumpkin doesn't help, my vet had suggested pepto bismol, she told me to put half a chewable tablet in his food (Buster is about 60 pounds, so adjust the amount according to your dog's weight). Of course, it shouldn't be used everyday, but it oes help firm things up a little when things getoutta hand! I would recomend pepto instead of immodium....

Prin
February 12th, 2007, 03:12 PM
I actually wouldn't recommend anything... No pepto, no immodium because that doesn't get at the root of the problem. It just masks the problem. :shrug: If it persists, I'd say head to the vet. You wouldn't want to wait too long and your dog get too dehydrated.:o

meb999
February 12th, 2007, 06:58 PM
yeah, Prin is right....I only gave Buster pepto AFTER the vet recomended it :shrug: But it's normal for Winston to have a few days of splats, poor little guy.

Winston
February 14th, 2007, 05:35 PM
Well here we are a few days into the new food and I have noticed a few things.. First off he does like the food...I am almost finished mixing it with the old Hills Gastro Food...

-he is actually scratching less
-his poops have been off but this evening he has a formed poop! we hew!
-he is still pooping more frequently but I have to give it more time
-he had 2 spots on the back shoulder area of whitish color to his fur...well that is almost back to a normal brown color

I was a little discouraged yesterday when I arrived home from work...he had pooped in the basement...I felt really bad for him..you would have to know my boy to understand that he will not do any mess in the house...he will run around actually squeeling to get out...so I could imagine how he must have been while I was not home! The funny thing is that 7 years ago when he was sick and I was at work he did the same thing and this time it was the same spot! ( I was actually happy it was in that spot..concrete is much easier to clean than carpets or hardwood!)

All in all though I am happy with the food at this time!

Cindy

P.S He is so spoiled....I had to dig out a path in the yard for him to go do his business..I felt bad because there were such high snow drifts in the yard he disappeared and all you could see was his head! must have been cold !

:crazy:

rainbow
February 14th, 2007, 05:57 PM
Glad to hear Winston is scratching less and his poop is starting to form. :highfive: So, it's a bonus that he likes the food. :thumbs up

gypsy_girl
February 14th, 2007, 05:58 PM
You may want to pick up a pre/probiotic as that may help the intestinal tract. Eagle makes a great one specifically for the issue you describe.
You can use yogurt, however using a variety of strains I think it better, and alot of dogs are lactose intollerant
http://eaglepack.com/Pages/HS_Solution.html
The fact that the itching is less sounds promising, pooping more not so promising. This is probably due to the intestinal tract not being settled. SOmetimes is takes awhile, as what you were using contained alot of plant protein and carbs.
If you are feeling really adventurous a digestive enzyme would also be great.
www.prozyme.com
:fingerscr

Winston
February 14th, 2007, 06:20 PM
Gypsy Girl how much yogurt do you give? Winston is a big boy @ 110lbs ...he eats between 3 & 4 cups per day..

Cindy

gypsy_girl
February 14th, 2007, 06:33 PM
You would need to feed around 250ml-500ml of yogurt per day to get the benefit. You will also need to ensure that the yogurt is "alive" and it will be stated on the side of the container, "guaranteed amounts of....." choose what you can find that is the highest #>
I am more of a fan of a mixed bag of probiotics, and you can use anything for people that is in the health food store, just adjust according to size.
Kefir is also great and can be found in alot of grocery stores now, and certainly the health food store.
http://www.kefir.net/
:fingerscr

meb999
February 14th, 2007, 06:38 PM
GOOD idea on the probiotics!! :thumbs up I gave Buster some and it REALLY helped. I tried yogurt, and it gave him the squirts (lactose isn'T the easiest thing for dogs). I bought probiotics and digestive enzymes at the regular pharmacy (they're kept in the fridge, so you have to ask the pharmacist). The 'human' ones are the same as the dog ones, except cheaper :thumbs up (mine cost me about 7 to 10 bucks for a bottle)

Winston
February 17th, 2007, 07:47 AM
Well it has been about a week now and Winston really likes the food....I noticed 2 things that I wonder if they are food related? He has been rubbing the chin and side of his face now and also licking his paws! I have looked and there is nothing on the chin or face? I thought with his paws it may be from the snow we have had...He disappears in the yard up to his neck when he goes to do his business! Even though I spoiled him and shovelled out an area for him! They are a little rough too! I do wipe his feet of and remove all the little cling on's that get stuck in his web feet!

Could this be the new food?

Cindy

rainbow
February 17th, 2007, 10:31 PM
It sounds like allergies to me but Prin is the expert and should reply shortly.

Prin
February 17th, 2007, 11:09 PM
Natural Balance Duck and Potato? Causing itchies?

He had itchies before, right? It could take a couple months to get rid of the itchies he had before the food switch, and ALL other foods have to be eliminated from the diet- cookies, human foods, everything. If the itchies keep getting worse, then you will have to switch him to something else. Being that he just switched, I'd say switch over to either the NB venison and brown rice or the sweet potato and fish- staying within one brand might be easier for him to switch again than switching brands completely (even if it might not be sure to fix the allergy...).

Winston
February 28th, 2007, 12:48 PM
Well today I am feeling a bit down! Winston is really not adapting to this new food. I have tried to ignore it and not worry but it is driving me crazy!

His poops are soft but formed which is better than before but he is not using any of this food?? His poops are HUGE..which they were never like that before? He has pooped in the house twice now since the changeover which he he only did once when he was a puppy! I know I need to give it time to adjust but I am feeling bad for him...I thought that there was some improvement in the first week or so but really am not sure now...

I did buy the large 30lb bag and have half of it left? Just not sure what to do at this point. Leave him on it longer or try something different.???

Cindy

rainbow
February 28th, 2007, 01:25 PM
Are you giving him the probiotics and digestive enzymes?

Prin
March 1st, 2007, 12:24 AM
The stools can be huge in the beginning... As long as they're getting better and his allergies are getting better, it's ok... You just have to give it time, IMO...:fingerscr You can try probiotics or cutting back 1/8th of a cup at a time for a couple days to see if that helps.

Winston
March 3rd, 2007, 01:54 PM
I bought this today...anything I need to know? Should I expect a change in his eating habits or anything?

Cindy

http://eaglepack.com/Pages/HS_Solution.html

gypsy_girl
March 3rd, 2007, 02:09 PM
I LOVE this stuff! I recommend it to people who are having trouble getting a firm stool. It does not mask the problem, but rather works to enhance digestion. Great choice!:thumbs up

rainbow
March 3rd, 2007, 02:34 PM
I've never seen it before. I don't like the owners of the only pet store in town that carries Eagle Pack so I don't go in there. It looks good though so if I ever need something I guess I'll have to put on my sunglasses and bite my tongue to go in there. :cool:

Winston
March 3rd, 2007, 03:08 PM
I LOVE this stuff! I recommend it to people who are having trouble getting a firm stool. It does not mask the problem, but rather works to enhance digestion. Great choice!:thumbs up

Gypsey girl...did you go by the directions on it? It indicates 1/4 teaspoon per cup of food? My boy eats between 3-4 cups..could it be too much to start with?

Cindy

P.S There was another product almost identical but half the price and it was to be used for only 7 days or as a transition between food changes??

gypsy_girl
March 3rd, 2007, 05:05 PM
You can't really overfeed this stuff. I experimented following the directions, and decreasing to see where the perfect point was. This is pre/probiotics AND digestive enzymes with Total Live Microorganisms: 5 billion CFU/gram, can you post what the other is? I can't see a reason why you would only feed it for 7 days, unless that is the marketing speil that they have chosen. If you continue on with these digestive aids, you could also ask that particular company if they see a reason why long term use is contraindicated.

Goldens4Ever
March 3rd, 2007, 08:08 PM
I just remembered Natural Balance has citric acid in their food which can be bad if your dog is prone to bloat......

NO. I posted a thread about this last fall. Citric Acid has been permanently removed from all of their dry kibbles dated 2007 & after.

Goldens4Ever
March 3rd, 2007, 08:15 PM
Natural Balance Duck and Potato? Causing itchies?

He had itchies before, right? It could take a couple months to get rid of the itchies he had before the food switch, and ALL other foods have to be eliminated from the diet......

Yes, it does take time. Goldie developed an allergy to something in the TO Lamb, Barley, & Apple formula. I then switched her to the Natural Balance Duck & Potato, which she was on for 2 weeks or so & she started recovering (now she's on TO Ocean Blue) & is fully recovered. It took about 1.5 months for her allergies to the lamb food to completely clear.

Isn't it the case that the longer a dog is on a particular food that is causing allergies, then the longer it takes for them to clear up??

You might want to try giving your dog some dabs of Extra Virgin Coconut Oil 2x/day also. It has been know to help dogs with allergies & skin problems. It's worked well for us also.

One Beagle Girl
March 3rd, 2007, 09:00 PM
You might want to try giving your dog some dabs of Extra Virgin Coconut Oil 2x/day also. It has been know to help dogs with allergies & skin problems. It's worked well for us also.

How much do you give per pounds of body weight? Hope this isn't considered threadjacking - I'm new. :o

Goldens4Ever
March 3rd, 2007, 10:25 PM
How much do you give per pounds of body weight? Hope this isn't considered threadjacking - I'm new. :o

HI. I have never heard or read anything stating that the amount given is dependent upon the weight of the dog. But using my own logic, 2 teaspoons per day would be fine for dogs 25+ lbs. Dogs under 25lbs. I would only give 1 teaspoon per day, or as recommended by the vet.

I love giving this product to my two. One of the best brands is by "Nutiva," & it can be found online or in health food stores. And, you want to ensure that it is Extra Virgin. I, as well as many other golden retriever owners, give this to our golden babies & it is fabulous! :thumbs up

Winston
March 3rd, 2007, 11:00 PM
Gypsey Girl ...I found a link ..it looks like some from of powder given when you transition the dog between foods??

Cindy

http://eaglepack.com/Pages/HS_DigestiveAids.html

gypsy_girl
March 3rd, 2007, 11:21 PM
Yes, this one is about 1/2 the price of the solution, and in your situation it may or may not work.
The only difference is that the one you have contains Inulin or FOS (fructo-oligosaccharides) which is a soluble fiber. It works as a prebiotic, by allowing the probiotic to proliferate, and absorbs excess water in the intestinal tract.
I think they have a guarantee, so when you get through that bottle, you COULD try the other one.
Jerusalem Artichokes and Chicory Root are also high in FOS if you want to go the "food" way.

geisha
March 9th, 2007, 11:31 AM
My senior samoyed took Holistic Blends Seagreens for her itchy skin. When I rotate my dogs' food I also give them Seagreens or Probiotics for the first week to help with digestion. Your pup's diarrhea concerns me and I was wondering if you might be feeding a bit too much. NB Duck & Potato has more calories does it not? I'm new here so excuse me if I happen to step out of line. cheers

Winston
March 9th, 2007, 11:58 AM
Well I wondered about that as well...based on the bag & the amount of food he ate previously he is between 3-4 cups per day....( he weighs 110 lbs)

What bothers me is that he is not using the food! He is pooping it back out....I can honestly say that this past week his stools are much better...sometimes the first poop is normal and then it goes downhill from there! It is the quantity of the poops that concerns me! He never used to have such large ones! (gross sorry!)

Cindy

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 12:31 PM
Yeah, that's normal in the beginning, when they're adjusting. They'll get better (and less smelly). :)

Winston
March 9th, 2007, 12:49 PM
Maybe I am loosing my mind but he used to hold his food for longer periods too! He seems to eat and have to go within a few hours..so I find I am trying to be careful feeding him at the beginning of the day if I am going to work?

Cindy

Prin
March 9th, 2007, 12:51 PM
Probably. Or just feed a smaller meal in the morning and a bigger meal at night. :shrug:

Winston
March 10th, 2007, 12:48 PM
Since I was due for more food for Winston I decided to try this brand...He has been through a small bag of the Duck & Potato & also a 30lb bag..so I figured if I am going to change I would stay with the same company...I am also using the digestive enzyme from EaglePack..that has certainly improved the softness of the stool but he is leaving mountains in the yard! Any thoughts on this one Prin?

Cindy



Dick Van Pattens Ultra Premium Dry

Chicken, Brown Rice, Lamb Meal, Oatmeal, Barley, Duck Meal, Potatoes, Carrots, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Tomato Pomace, Natural Flavor, Canola Oil, Brewers Yeast, Fish Meal, Salmon Oil, Lecithin, Whole Ground Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Inulin, Taurine, Spinach, Parsley Flakes, Cranberry, Lysine, L-Carnitine, Yucca, Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B).

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude Protein 23.0% minimum
Crude Fat 13.0% minimum
Crude Fiber 3.0% maximum
Moisture 10.0% maximum
Omega 3 Fatty Acids 0.5% minimum
Omega 6 Fatty Acids 3.0% minimum

Winston
March 23rd, 2007, 08:02 PM
Well Winston has been on the Orijen Adult Food for a couple of weeks and I am really impressed...He likes it too! His stools have decreased quite a bit which I am happy about! I still need to give it more time to see how it all works out...I bought some Wild Salmon and Fish Oil gelcaps today and wondered how many and how often to give them to him. I am hoping this will help with his coat...They are 1000 mg? He is 110lbs?

Cindy

technodoll
March 23rd, 2007, 08:16 PM
i give each dog 1 capsule of fish oil per day (1000mg dose), just drop it down their throats with the morning meal... i don't know if it helps with their coats or not, but there are so many benefits to Omega 3's that it's all good for me ;)

Winston
March 23rd, 2007, 08:45 PM
Thanks TD! I was worried I would give him too much!

:)