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Alternative Medicine and Metaphysics

January 28th, 2007, 07:55 AM
My passion is alternative medicine and metaphysics. Am I alone here? I am not a fan of Western Medicine for either people or animals. I believe it is good for about 20% of what ails us. Meaning accute infection and surgery. If you get in a car crash Western Medicine is for you.
In America anyway, the pharmacutical companies have gone haywire. Every other commercial is about a new drug. It is disgusting the way they promote drugs! We tell our kids not to take drugs yet every other commercial is about drugs. Don't even get me started on HRT and how many women got breast cancer from it. Did you know the rate of that cancer has dropped dramatically in the United States? You know why? Because women stopped taking HRT in 2004! We have become a country that thinks every single symptom or problem should be addressed with a pill. Do you know how many people a year end up in the hospital due to reaction to drug or die? I digress
I study The Bible, more importantly the Word, The Course in Miracles and Science of the Mind by Ernest Holmes. The belief is all things come from thought. Our mind is where everything is formed so in any healing or change we must go to the mind first. Science of the Mind is not Scientology people always get that confused. It is based on the word of Christ but more in a Metaphysical bent. I am a Christian but I consider myself a Metaphysical Christian.
When Rory started getting seizures my western Vet only had meds in his bag of tricks. So, I had to start going to holistic vet to try a different approach. I don't want to be a broken record on this sight but I will always chose holistic or alternative over Western unless it is an acute infection, needed surgery or if holistic completely failed.
I believe in communication with our animals and that our intuition is the most valuable thing we have in that conversation. I think I need to be an advocate for my animal and be educated in the relm of vaccinations, food etc.
Anyone else out there with my beliefs and thoughts????:confused:

January 28th, 2007, 09:49 AM
i believe in both but having too much hope in one or the other will fail you. i believe in holistic medicine, herbal remedies, etc but i hate when people think they're better or assume they are safer, they are not.
all medications, treatments and remedies need to be treated with the same amount of respect and caution.
i am also a believer in your body can only come back to shape or wellness if you strive for that prior to illness or injury or treat it like a temple with all other aspects of life afterwards. if you treat you body like crap, and depend on a remedy or drug to cure it, you are going to be disappointed. good food, good health mentally, physically, and emotionally are essential.
i am a believe in science, however not profit. science is key to seeing how the body works and why a treatment is beneficial. but the scientiic world needs more good doers in it and less profiteers

jesse's mommy
January 28th, 2007, 09:57 AM
I'm definitely not on board with you. I don't think popping a pill is the right thing to do for everything, but I do think that the advances in science has done wonders over the past 100 years. Look at the average life span of a person today compared to 100 years ago. We are able to live longer happier lives and a lot of that has to do with education and science.

I do believe that exercise and proper diet is key to a healthy life. I also agree with relaxing the mind and making sure your body is treated right in every way including getting massages on a regular basis, but I don't believe holistic practices are the only practices to incorporate into life. I think there is a balance between the two and that a lot of medical conditions can only be treated with pharmaceuticals.

I respect the choices others make and don't put them down because I don't agree with them. I refuse to push my beliefs on them and expect the same in return from those I meet.

January 28th, 2007, 12:46 PM
Look at the average life span of a person today compared to 100 years ago.
I regret to advise that most of that has to do with better nutrition, and not with advanced medicine. For the most part, medicine in the Western world only deals with us once we get sick, and usually only with the body part that is ill. Holistic views tend to deal with prevention, i.e. leading a healthy lifestyle, etc., as well as viewing the body as a whole. I think that there is a happy medium here, in that, for example, traditional Chinese medicine, which is basically holistic, has taught Western medicine a great deal, but Western medicine has also been incorporated into modern Chinese medicine. The only difficulty I have with any of this, frankly, is when you begin to inject religious beliefs into all of this, whether it is the 'Word' of Christ, Mohammed, Buddha or whomever. Once you do that, you negate all the people who do not believe in the religious hierarchy as you do, to say nothing about atheists or agnostics. My belief? Most of what we learn in religion are the words of man, that have been edited and changed throughout time. Religion itself is business and a man-made construct. Spirituality, on the other hand has to do with your personal relationship with a higher being and all that is around you. It is a personal thing that does not need an intermediary.

January 28th, 2007, 01:53 PM
I think both have a place. My brother would not be alive today if not for Western medicine (he has juvenile diabetes). I'm a scientist and if I went to work for Pharma, I would be in it to try and help people, not for the profit. The companies do need money to do research, it is NOT cheap. They also have an obligation to shareholders. However, the advertising for drugs does bother me. I do believe overall we are over medicated, but some of that stuff does help improve lives. My personal thought on the grand scheme is that if people would take better care of themselves they would not need so much treatment of any kind. How about exercise and eat right? Many many ailments could be prevented if people would do this. Some would not. Those are the ones who benefit from Western medicine. People should not just assume there is some magic cure out there for them and just do whatever they want to harm their bodies. The 'natural' cures can be just as potent and even harmful if not used correctly. I don't like to put too many things in my body besides food, just in case. Too much of anything can kill you, even water can be toxic if you drink enough of it at once.

January 28th, 2007, 06:04 PM
It isn't religion I am talking about. It is a way of being in the World. I am a Christian but you don't have to be Christian to understand that all things come from thought and that we are co-creators. Also, I believe in Universal Principels like gravity for instance. You can apply that same principel to karma. Meaning all deeds are seen by the Universe. For example: If you buy something at the grocery store but when you get home you realize they did not charge you, do you decide to go back and tell them or keep it? If you chose to keep it, the Universe sees that. Obviously, there are a lot worse things we can do than that but my point is nothing goes un-noticed.
Science of the Mind is not about Science it is about Universal Principels and how we are creating everything we are experiencing. It is the idea of the law of attraction. It is Quantum Physics. It has nothing to do with religion or medicine. It has to do with our thoughts and true inner beliefs that create the experiences we are having.
The Course, a practice I study, is an undoing of how we interprute our surrondings and perceptions of attack, defense and guilt. It is a system that recognizes the world of the Ego which is in opposition to the world of the Spirit. It is to detailed to go into but the premise again is all things happen in the mind. So, that is where we need to start when we are looking for change. And, yes it is through the Holy Spirit because in and of ourselves we will make a mess of it.
From your responses, I am getting the idea you don't agree with what I am saying or don't really quite understand what I am talking about.
I think Western Medicine has a very finite place in health. It has been marketed such that people think it is the end all be all. IF I were an alien from another planet and studied disease on this planet and the chronic level of disease we have now, I would say no thank you to that form of medicine.
I did say it has its place but frankly can offer very little for long term illnesses and chronic illnesses. When my vet can only offer drugs to my dog with no alternative, I need to go somewhere else. Rory has done wonderful with herbs and acupuncture. Why wouldn't I want to try that first before putting him on serious drugs that would need liver checks monthly? NOt only that, but it would also affect him and his personality.
I agree that herbs are drugs and you need to know what you are ingesting. You should work with a practitionar that has studied it. I wasn't implying otherwise. I have been a student of this philosophy and alternative medicine for over 10 years so I was not just chewing the fat for fun. This is my life and passion.
I don't put anyone down for what they chose to use or believe. This is my truth and was trying to find out if anyone else on this forum was studying the same things. :pawprint:

January 28th, 2007, 06:30 PM
I'm a "fan" of natural medicine in the sense that I don't really see much of a difference between it and "strong drugs." - Regardless of which I'm using, I know I need to get the opinion of a professional and that giving herbs to my dog for health reasons is not at all much different from giving my dogs prescription drugs for health reasons.

I'm not a fan of drug companies (I find it very sad that I buy drugs from companies that often do disgusting testing on animals so that my animal can be healthy). But at the same time, if something is going to help my dog, I'll more than likely use it.

Now, to be totally off-topic....

I'd argue that your "way of being in the World" is very much a spiritual system (and very similar - if not identical - to a religious belief system). Specifically, when you say " don't have to be Christian to understand that all things come from thought and that we are co-creators." This reads to me as you basically saying that you don't have to a Christian to know that your belief about how the universe works is Truth.

I hope that didn't come off harsh - I found your post very interesting and just wanted to respond honestly. Also, hopefully I'm not helping to hijack the thread too terribly much.

January 28th, 2007, 07:48 PM
Email or writing is tricky because sometimes it just doesn't come across right. To me quantum physics is the new paradigm for a new age. It really doesn't have to do with Spirituality. Yes, I am a very Spiritual person and yes for me it is the Trinity 100%! Having said that, one's walk with God is individual and personal. That does not change quantum physics. Quantum physics is a paradigm that says we are creating what we see. We think we see our environment because it is there but no we are creating what we see. For instance, when Christopher Columbus was on the Ocean and the Indians were on Shore the Indians could not see the ship. This is because they had no reference of what a ship looked like. They could see the waves tossing and turning but didn't know why. Now, the medicine man could see it and started to explain to the tribe what was out there. It was then they could see it. See? We are creating our environment not the other way around. We are in the Aquarian age which believes in personal responsibility not victimization. We are responsible for what we expereince. Again, this can be both Spiritual but it is also the new science quantum physics.
I am trying to understand how to apply this to my dog Rory with the seizures. I believe we can heal and that all illness comes from thought. So, this is a new level of interest and learning for me.
If you believe from science that the earth is round that is no different to me than knowing there is a law of attraction. To me, that is science. See?

January 28th, 2007, 07:51 PM
I'm still waiting for the studies that show so-called "natural" remedies are safe.

January 28th, 2007, 07:52 PM
:dog: Oh, one more thing. I don't agree with you about herbs vs drugs. The drugs Rory would need to take for seizures have serious side effects. He would have to have his liver checked at least once every month or two and it would effect his personality. None of that is true for chinese herbs. Western Medicine has much more of a problem with side effects than alternative. In homeopathy there are no side effects. Western Medicine only looks at the symptoms and alternative medicine looks at the whole person. :goodvibes:

January 28th, 2007, 07:54 PM
In homeopathy there are no side effects. I'm sorry, but that is just not true. Just because the information is not available about side effects of homeopathic drugs because there haven't been clinical trials for MOST of these pills, it doesn't mean they are safe and without side effects. At all. It also doesn't mean they don't interact with other drugs.

January 28th, 2007, 07:58 PM
Prin, Chinese Medicine has been used for 1,000's of years. It is extremely safe. You want to make sure when you get Chinese herbs you are getting from a company that is sulfur free. There are plenty of studies on natural. There are more coming out every day. I can find some sites if you want me to. I really think it is time for people to be more willing to look at other ways of treatments for health and sickness. We live in free economies why is it when it comes to this everyone seems so closed? I just don't get it? :confused:

January 28th, 2007, 08:03 PM
If somebody told me a story about how say, Aspirin, was a GREAT drug and they had a great experience with it, would I run out and get it? No. I would go see my doctor first, ask if there is anything wrong with me and if there was, ask what meds I need, if any, and what the effects, side effects and long term effects are of the meds before deciding what to do. There isn't any of that in the process of buying a herb. You just hear it from a buddy, run out and buy it without talking to your doctor, without knowing the side effects, without knowing if you really need it.

Yes, chinese remedies have been around for 1000's of years, but so has alcohol, and animal abuse and I don't think either are good things.

Mocha's mum
January 28th, 2007, 09:08 PM
You know, I agree to a point, that we've become a drug based society. I'm not one to run into the doc at every sign of illness, but there have been incredible discoveries in the world of medicine. Anyone hear about the potential cure for cancer being researched at the University of Alberta?

Originally Posted by tully
In homeopathy there are no side effects.
Unfortunately in Canada, there isn't a governing body like the FDA to keep tabs on these holistic companies; or companies providing organic foods either. Therefore, these companies aren't legally required to report any clinical trials, or adverse reactions/side effects to their 'medications'. A lot of people are under the impression that because it's natural, or holistic, that there are no side effects/indications and contraindications. Being in the medical world, I've seen my fair share of patients having to get their stomach pumped, or put on narcan, or having irreversible kidney/liver damage because they didn't know that they couldn't take holistic drug X with drug Y. People won't tell you during a patient history if they're taking an herbal supplement; you have to pry them to get an answer. And if you've been in an MVC and are unconscious, how will your primary care providers know if you've taken supplements, or are undergoing holistic treatment? At least if you regularly see one family doctor, you will have a record of medications/treatments available so that any future health care providers can access this information, and determine what is the best treatment for you. And you won't end up with bad scoobies.

I too am somewhat religious, and firmly believe that if God didn't want us to develop medications and treatments, he wouldn't have given us the ability. :shrug:

January 28th, 2007, 09:12 PM
Great post Mocha's mum! :highfive: :thumbs up

January 28th, 2007, 09:20 PM
Quantum physics isn't that new,it's been around for awhile, although certainly not compared to the 1000s of yrs for Chinese medicine.
In college I studied quantum mechanics (as part of my biochem degree). It was quite interesting and very advanced math, hard science. Translating into the 'real world', well, that can be subjective.

I see you believe in a very strong mind/body connection. My personal thought are that while they are connected, I do not think illnesses are usually 100% mind or 100% body. Sometimes, probably, but most of the time both factor in. At least for humans. No idea about animals really, as I don't know what they are aware of. Probably more than we think. Have you looked into Reiki?

Long term illness can be helped by Western medicine, though. My example again is my brother, who would be dead without insulin injections for the rest of his life. There are no herbs to help bring back the islets of Langerhands cells in the pancreas. But with insulin he can live a nearly normal life, hopefully almost as long as the rest of us.

There are some types of Western Drs that do focus more on the whole body. Drs of osteopathic medicine (a DO, not an MD) do this and go to med school to learn.

January 28th, 2007, 09:31 PM
Also, the earth IS round, as we can see from pics from outerspace, such as from the space shuttle. It is not round because we think it is, but because it is.

January 29th, 2007, 04:49 PM
OK, so the anwser to my thread is no!
The reason we know the earth is round is because we have a group conciousness, race conciousness if you will, and that is why I can see a tree and you cn see a tree. But, quantum physics says you are creating the environment you see not the other way around. That is why the Indians could not see the ship until the medicine man told them what was out there. The ship appeared to them only after they had a reference of what they were looking for.
Yes, Quantum Physics has been around for a long time but now we are in the Aquarian age, which is alll about personal responsibility! It is the new frontier where science is going. Before, we saw ourselves as victims and that things were done to us, via a bacterial infection, now with Quantum physics we see it differently.
Prin, sorry but homeopathy is the safest medicine known to man. There are tons of studies on homeoapthy, acupuncture, Massage therapy, etc. TONS OF THEM!
For the 100th time, yes herbs are drugs and yes there can be interactions!!!!!!! I didn't say they were not. However, there is a much longer list of safe herbs that can be taken long term with out side effects vs. western medicines. You need to be educated just like anything else! Either educate yourself or work with someone who already is. Again, Chinese Medicine is 1,00000000s of years older than Western Medicine.
Western Medicine asks nothing or very little of the patient. It basically allows the patient to bare no responsibility for what is ailing them. There are over 700,000 deaths a year due to reaction to prescriptions. Most Dr.s don't want the patient to question them they want them to just do what they said. There are millions of people popping more than one pill daily. I can guarantee you there have been more mishaps with interactions of western drugs with each other than any western drug and herb. Meaning there are millions of people on several drugs and taking them all together every day. Not only having bad reactions but probably aslo having new symptoms due to the interactions.
I see that I am not with a group that has the same mind set and that is what I wanted to know. So, thanks for the input. :usa:

January 29th, 2007, 09:48 PM
Prin, sorry but homeopathy is the safest medicine known to man. There are tons of studies on homeoapthy, acupuncture, Massage therapy, etc. TONS OF THEM!And? Where are they?

January 30th, 2007, 06:07 AM
Let me find you a couple of good sites and you can check them out if you want to. :crazy:

January 30th, 2007, 06:37 AM
this is a start anyway:

January 30th, 2007, 06:57 AM
you cant say there are no side effects to homeopathic remedies. 1. because the getting or feeling better is a side effect (its called a desired side effect) and 2. people seem to forget many natural things can and are bad for us, ir cocaine, poison ivy, many other poisonous things.
there are potential adverse side effects to everything. just because something has been used for 1000's of years doesnt mean its perfect. and the life span increase is not just from nutrition, it is also because many illnesses that were once a death sentence can be cured or a healthier state maintained

an example of side efects to a herbal remedy
ginkgo biloba has adverse side effects such as
gastrointestinal dscomfort
increased risk of bleeding

January 30th, 2007, 07:05 AM
oh and western medicine can do many preventative things howver many people in western society do not worry about health until too late. of people were interested in preventative medicine, there would be less obsiety, high blood pressure, etc etc. there isnt as much of a market for preventative medicine but western medicine could do it. and its not ness that dr.'s want their patients to just listen to them many drs discourage medicines but many patients insist on them, they feel their dr has "done nothing " for them when leaving without a prescription in hand.
and people need to asks more questions the number one member of your health care team is you, only you can describe exactly how you feel and get the treatment you need and keep your body in the best condition it can be is yourself

January 30th, 2007, 10:17 AM
I don't dare jump into this debate - I am too passionate about saving lives. As a pediatric oncologist, I have seen too many miracles that would not have occurred without what you call western style medicine. I am not as opposed to some alternative meds (but not many) as many of my colleagues and do not believe in handing out scripts for every illness (I tend to agree with Marcia Angell , former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, who takes no prisoners in her book on the pharmaceutical industry but that is separate from what you are saying.)

The problem I have with what passes for alternative medicine is its lack of regulation - you do not know what you get and there are so many quacks out there selling the next snake oil. Desperate people will take desperate measures and in many ways, the alternative med industry is even more dishonest the pharmaceutical industry. This is not to say there are not some techniques that have been proven to work on minor ailments but I treat cancer every day and thank God for western medicine.

I have seen what alternative medicine does in underdeveloped countries - when people use all they have without the meds we have access to. Their mortality rates are more than double what ours are and children often do not live to see their first birthday. True, this is not what we think of as "alternative" medicine here but the same ingredients are used because they have nothing else and it is heart breaking! It's also criminal in my experience when you have govts promoting myths about AIDs and other serious illnesses.

Anyway - that's it. I will only get myself worked up. <g>

We'll have to agree to disagree!

January 30th, 2007, 12:20 PM
Another fan of "western" medicine and empirical evidence here.

I would trust Viagra more than a traditional Chinese sexual potency potion made with tiger penis. Just because people believe something is true for a very long time doesn't mean it's actually true. For hundreds of years, people thought barnacle geese were born from barnacles.

January 30th, 2007, 01:43 PM
OKIDIKO then. I was actually trying to find like minded people. I get it you aren't. My intention of this thread was not to get in an argument or to get slammed. It was to find like minded people in the area of treatment for their pets by alternative means. I don't need to convince anyone nor do you need to try to convine me about Western Medicine. I guess we should close this because who wants to keep the conflict? I don't. :usa:

January 30th, 2007, 02:00 PM
K, I think both are equally important. I like the fact I can pick and chose which medicinal route i would like to go... I like the work being done by tradiononal (western) medicine as well as the growing awareness of natural approaches.
Neither is better than the other one, and regardless what side a person choses to head towards, I think we all appreciate the work being done on both sides.
yes you do have to be careful with homeopathic approaches but you also should do your best to inform yourself as much as possible with each of them. I dont like dismissing the reasons for treatments because "someone" (weather it be a doctor or a "quack")said its the way to help. I think questions and understanding has to be done on either side...
To all the doctors out there who save millions of lives daily... I give immense appreciation...
To all holistic researchers and practitioners... also give immense appreciation..
Either way, the interest is the same ... improving quality of life and trying to save people! The angels of the world for sure.:angel: either way, both passionate and devoted to their work!:thumbs up

January 30th, 2007, 02:06 PM
its like science and religion... I apprieciate what both do for people...
Religion... gives people hopes and beliefs... take from it what you will
Science... does the same thing!
I appreciate both for different reasons. I guess im out of this debate.... :D

January 30th, 2007, 09:16 PM
this is a start anyway:

I thought you meant real, peer-reviewed, scientific studies.

Good luck finding any of those. ;)

January 31st, 2007, 06:49 AM
Prin, the homeopathic site is just that. They have several studies, trials, control groups etc. That is what you are asking for and questioning. Did you look at the site? I am not sure what you are talking about. The other two are not that but the first one is! :crazy:

January 31st, 2007, 11:22 AM
I am not sure where you are learning about Quantum theory, but it doesn't sound like anything I have been taught at advanced levels in a university setting. This branch of science describes what happens at the level of the atom. Pay particular attn to number 5. These theories are not meant to describe real world situations, such as what we see when we look at something. Anyway, you are right, your question was answered. By the way, I totally agree with your views about personal responsibility. Unfortunately, although we may be in the age of Aquarius, it seems to me that we are not living up to it. Many are not taking responsibility for themselves and their own health. Staggering health care costs reflect this (in addition to the increase in numbers in our aging population).

Quantum physics is a branch of science that deals with discrete, indivisible units of energy called quanta as described by the Quantum Theory. There are five main ideas represented in Quantum Theory:

1)Energy is not continuous, but comes in small but discrete units.
2)The elementary particles behave both like particles and like waves.
3)The movement of these particles is inherently random.
4)It is physically impossible to know both the position and the momentum of a particle at the same time. The more precisely one is known, the less precise the measurement of the other is.
5)The atomic world is nothing like the world we live in.

January 31st, 2007, 01:18 PM
Prin, the homeopathic site is just that. They have several studies, trials, control groups etc. That is what you are asking for and questioning. Did you look at the site? I am not sure what you are talking about. The other two are not that but the first one is! :crazy:

Um... Their version of "peer reviewed" studies and the real version seem to be two different things.

One study in that link on using homeopathy on women in menopause showed that their overall health increased slightly, but the homeopathic drugs had no effect on their menopausal symptoms. Then they go on to say the sample size was too small to really tell anything, and THEN they say this:
but results from this preliminary trial suggest that homeopathy may be of value in the treatment of menopausal symptoms and improving quality of life
Umm... they just said it didn't do anything. :confused:

And then the next one:
They say the homeopathic drugs did better but:
the superiority of this treatment, in comparison with the acetaminophen group, did not reach statistical significanceSo they're better but they're not superior (i.e. they're not better). :thumbs up

I could go on and on. It's just ridiculous. Not all studies and not all journals are created equally.

January 31st, 2007, 03:52 PM
I just did a search for homeopathy and dogs in the "ScienceDirect" journal database and got back a lot of articles. Briefly going through a few, I saw some positive studies on homeopathy in regards to treating dogs with cuts, fleas, and arthritis.

There certainly have been legitimate studies done on the subject. And many of them have even shown positive results.

At any rate, I'm glad this board has a strict policy on not allowing users to offer specific advice about a pet's health. I certainly have my own amateurish ideas on animal health issues, but as we all know, a veterinarian (whether a 'traditional' or homeopathic) should be the person to offer advice and treatment suggestions.

February 4th, 2007, 08:44 AM
I think it is really interesting that so many on this board are such avid supporters of diet but than any other holistic way of being is poo pooed. Just an observation.
I also am always intrigued at the level of emotion that comes up when one starts questioning something like western medicine and other alternatives. Frankly, I think all forms of medicine have offerings and it depends on what you are treating and or dealing with. Most of your remarks just prove, to me, the remarkable job of marketing western medicine has done for itself!
I think at this point it is undisputable that pharmacuticals and insurance companies are running medicine not the people that should be. It has become a huge big business and frankly in a lot of cases the bottom line is profit for its investors not for the betterment of people and disease. That is not to say everyone in the field of medicine is that way but that is where medicine has been taken. To see how many pills are on the market for every problem from a bad night sleep to shyness is disturbing!
Before they knew that the ulcer was created by a bacteria, which by the way was resisted by Dr's andd the pharmacutical company when that finding came out, the drug used to help with the pain of the ulcer, can't remember the name, could only be bought by prescription. When it was found out that a lot of ulcers could be healed by an antibiotic the pharmacutical company went into over drive to figure how to still market it's medication. In a wink, it was sold over the counter, for what?, Acid Reflux. So, please don't tell me that Western Medicine has not become corrupt because it has. Did you know that the pharmacies in America no longer carry the brand zithromax, an antibiotic by pzier which was the founder, they now only carry the generic brand. Why? Because they have an agreement with the insurance company not to carry it because the Greenstone generic brand is so much cheaper. I mean come on who is running medicine at this point?

And Prin, you seem to really want accuracy in drug testing. You seem to be under the impression that all trials and studies and controls of western medicine are above board. I will have to disagree! Go get the book Talking back to prozac and you will be very disappointed to find out that several studies were falsified and or omited so the drug companies could get these drugs on the market fast! How bout the drug Viox? How many people did it kill before they had to take it off the market???? I mean come on, get your head out of the sand. You will hear many more cases like these with western medicines than you ever will of Chinese herbs or homeopathy. So, I am not sure what your point is about other medicines not being safe but somehow western is? Go watch some of those commercials that are on daily about all the side effects of all these drugs now. I mean I am not getting your point.
And to address the point on qunatum physicis: Of course it is real in the Universe right now. We are just atoms that is the point!!!!! We do create our universe from within not out side of ourselves. IT is a very complicated paradigm and quite new to our 10% used brains; however, we are evolving as a speices and I think this is where science is going. The truth is, nothing is really here it is just atoms. This, of course is over simplified but that is what quantum physics says. Also, everything is created in the mind. It is the exact opposite of what we have believed up until now. We have seen ourselves as victims of the Universe and things being done to us. We no longer can have that luxury. The victim age is over and as you can see by what is going on in the world no one is ready for that idea! :usa:

February 4th, 2007, 12:40 PM
Wow, eh? Way to twist everything around to suit your own point. :thumbs up :rolleyes:

Why don't you look around? Go to a "health food store" and tell me there isn't a "natural" drug for every possible complaint under the sun.

All I'm asking for are real studies that show a) the homeopathic drug works and b) what the side effects are and I won't take a drug without it.

Sure some studies are falsified, but that's the minority and that's why you need peer reviewed studies and you need to keep up to date with the latest ones on whichever drug you're looking at. The truth comes out in the end, usually earlier than the media gets it, but you have to be aware and keep your eyes open for it.

Yes, the pharma companies are in it for the money, but do you really think the homeopathic companies aren't? :rolleyes:

February 4th, 2007, 05:12 PM
All I can say is oh brother, NOT again!! Until someone shows me they understand the concept of studies and stats and understand what they are reading - much less expect others to believe - then I will not be listening. This is not arrogance - it is based on science. Yes, there are some studies in traditional medicine (western medicine is not really a category and it implies something inaccurate and also "looks down" (for want of a better word) on other medicine. Western medicine can mean different definitions to different people- I know what it means to me but it is not a term I ever use and it is my profession.

Yes, there are some studies that are done in ways some of us might disagree with, myself included, especially if double blind peer reviewed studies which utilize a control group as the medication being studied and the experimental group as a placebo, A better study - in most researchers' opinions - would be using different meds for the groups.

However, homeopathic products and practices (I really do not view or regard it as medicine), rarely use any of these practices and none of the products on the market today that call themselves "homeopathic" have been approved by the FDA in the US or Health Canada here or the agencies in other countries.

I have used one or 2 homeopathic products on my cats but these are two that have been proven over time. And these are used sparingly and maybe once a year!! I do not consider them medicine and know I am taking a risk. I buy them from one company. I am thinking of products like cocculine (which has been stuidied alas in the same way - med vs placebo) in a study funded in part by the company that makes the product. At least with medication used on people, we have vast complicated protocols - with ethical committess to get through to follow and while some meds are found to be lacking, of a doctor uses them, I would not be impressed - just as I eschewed the notion of the newer NSAID's like vioxx which the FDA and NIH in Baltimore and Atlanta had already recommended against in excellent studies.

I did not read this as a vet issue in the first post but I think our animals deserve the same quality of care we provide ourselves - not some voodoo science.

It scares me to see so many people popping stuff that may well be found yrs later to be a carcinogen or have other adverse effects. Tryptophan for one has been shown to have many adverse effects et in the 80's, it was promoted in some non medical magazines as the great wonder. There is some naturally but not enough to harm us. Such is the case with much of those kind of alternative meds.

I have admittedly treated more than one child with aplastic anemia after some parent - because they assumed some of this stuff was safe, gave it to the child. Parents and people in general are bombarded with so mich info - as are docs for that matter - that it is incumbent on us - to study what we put in our body, both in terms of what we we want and what we take.

Some of the "old" treatments - and here I mean meds like penicillin - work just as well as antibiotics with more strong effects (think Cipro and zithromax which are wonderful for serious infections but hardly for a minor infection) for ex. Any parent who would use an alternate med in place of antibiotics if endangering their child and I do not understand how ppl can willingly do this. I hate to be the one who sees some of the outcomes and always bite my tongue because often they meant well, they were just ill informed. (and even zealous about it). But they soon change when they see their child so ill.

Maybe it is my own specialty but I see people with life threatening illnesses and have suffered enough of them myself - but if I had to depend on these alternate meds, I would not be here nor would many of my patients. So it scares me when someone is preaching how wonderful this stuff is. I do not want to belittle anyone's beliefs but pls do not expect those of us who deal with life and death day in and day out to willingly accept your views. If you want to try them, tact is up top you but please do not try to prey on people who might be desperate and seek as easier way. I wish some of these alternate programs worked - really I do - (I'd be singing their praises) but I have seen too much - seen ppl depend on them when good meds are available here and not in their country - to ever be acquiescent about this topic.

February 4th, 2007, 05:31 PM
I think western meds and herbal remedies both have something to offer.

I think many people confuse the word homeopathy for the word holistic,and for natural/herbal remedies.They are not the same thing.At all.

February 4th, 2007, 05:53 PM
I second that completely LL1. Along with homeopathy and Chinese medicine which is not one in the same. I also think there may be some underlying confusion between the the term metaphysics and quantum physics (but, hey I've been out of Uni for awhile maybe the atom has changed :D :D :D ).

With that's still a very interesting discussion and as always, unless I know everything it's best that I approach everything with an open mind and a willingness to accept that I may not always be correct in my assumptions.

February 4th, 2007, 06:01 PM
That is a good pt LL. We all have different definitions for these words so we may be talking apples and oranges here - to use a bad description. (It has been a lomng day and I can't think, lol). Even "alternative medicine" means different things to different people.

I guess when I think of "western" med - and I have not heard it called that for decades- even when I have worked in the developing world - I think of an all encompassing word that means how we do things with traditional medicine in North America and even in some other developed countries like Japan, South Africa (which may be awful in hematology but did see the world's first heart transplant), China and other countries. In Africa, no one ever called me a "western" doctor so it is a term I have difficulty defining. I suspect it means one thing to the person who started the thread and maybe something else to many of us.

There are some herbs that are good and even some studies - Lancet last summer had a plethora of studies about CQ10 and glucausamine has been studies in depth by both vet and med journals. Even with herbs tho, there is no regulation and one is forced to depend on Consumer studies by non medical ppl to determine what companies actually produce products that work or do what they claim to. Most of them do not have enough of the herb to do any good and while many of them cannot necly hurt, come of them - even vitamins - can hurt if taken for too long or too much is taken. We can OD on anything, alas. Too, these companies are not required to state or list the ingredients on their products so one does not know what one is getting. Some do of their own accord. Also, the interactions between herbs and meds is another issue that even ppl in my profession know not enough about. I tend to try to keep up on it but so often when I ask patients or their parents (and think teens here since 9 yr olds are not likely to be taking some herb except for vitamins) what else they are taking, they forget to list the herbs - and that can interfere with not the best results (either adverse outcomes or cancelling the effects of the med the child needs) - being taken since they fail to think of them as meds. The same of course can be said for some foods tho.

But yes, homeopathy and holistic remedies are two different entities. I guess I think to aspirin, that all time miracle drug that really comes from willow bark - which is prob how some of the medicine "people" in some of the areas I have worked in helped their ppl cope with pain. Same goes for the foxglove plant which under most circumstances is poisonous but used the proper way, it is used in the development of digitalis, an important heart med. So many of our good meds come from plants and is that traditional medicine (to me it is) or is that the use of herbs and plants?

It is a complicated question in some ways.

I need to know all these plants given my work with so many meds in chemotherapy, sigh!! I'' just continue my work and research and if ppl want to call it "western", I can do little about it.

Anyway -- that's all I am saying, lol

February 4th, 2007, 06:07 PM
I agree that some herbs can definitely be harmful.

Homeopathy is actually a very specific thing,but I have found that often unless someone actually uses homeopathy, it is thought to be something else.I am curious which remedies you used on your cats?

Back to the main topic lol,I dont find people to be dismissive of alternative medicine or therapies here.

February 4th, 2007, 07:28 PM
i just wanted to say i love debates like this (honestly i do :)) i think its cool we come to a place where we all care so much about our pets but we all have different views on how to care for them. its a great resource because if what i maybe used to doing as a method of treatment is not working and iask questions then i can have an encyclopedia worth of alternatives.
i think this thread has started to become more about personal definitions too. i see holistic as caring for all aspects of ones self (mind, body, and spirit) to cure, prevent and maintain health.
although i have respect for and have used herbal remedies (aloe, ginko biloba, vitamins) i dont think they are better than all synthetic or engineered medicines. (thats the best way i could describe the others couldnt think of the word i wanted to use) and i think the "Herbal remedies" world has turned into a profiteers business at times as well.
i think people really need to research what they are putting into their bodies be it prescibed or not. just because a dr said you should take it doesnt mean its perfect. its our responsibility to know what the side effects are, what we are proned to and what interactions something may have as 1 dr can have hundreds of pts and not remember everything about you or reread your file everytime and they go on the information that they are presented with at the time as well.
however medicine can be sometimes overshadowed by profiteering pharmaceutical companies that fund research for their products so sometimes things that are medicine related dont get as much proper scientific research done on them. an example of this is gluten-casien free diets as a behavioural modification treatment method for autistism and PDD s, many people have used it in the past with great results but there is limitied proper reseach done because there is not many people willing to fund the studies for it (resently david pachell evan the founder of goodlife funded a research project for this b.c he has a daugther with autism and has found success using this diet)

February 4th, 2007, 07:39 PM
I am interested in learning more about homeopathic remedies from those who use them,might change my opinion on it.

Mocha's mum
February 4th, 2007, 07:44 PM
How bout the drug Viox? How many people did it kill before they had to take it off the market???? :yell:

Just how many people died from Vioxx alone? And how many people did it help?? Yours truly for one. I have a form of spina bifida, and rely on these medications to help me through painful bouts of back pain and sciatica. I can't take celebrex, I'm anaphylactically allergic to sulpha. So where does that leave me? Relying on warm packs and 'physio'. Ha.

Ponder this for a moment:
How many drunk drivers kill people everyday?? Do you see alcohol off the market? How many doped up meth heads have killed people either through acts of violence, or vehicular based rampages? Are the ingredients for meth off the market?? What about cigarettes?? How many people have died from smoking related illnesses, burdening the health care system with their treatments and hospitals stays (and yes, I have a right to preach about smokers, because I am one of them)?? Last time I checked (this afternoon), cigarettes are still on the market. I could go on and on and on.....peticides, herbicides, burning fossil fuels, peanuts.....

February 4th, 2007, 08:01 PM
Yep, everything we eat/take/do has its downsides. The main thing for me is deciding. We're not deciding if we don't have access to all the information, whether it's a herbal drug or a pharmaceutical drug.

Like me with the birth control patch- Every second study that is released says it's bad because it gives women too much estrogen. I know the effects of too much estrogen in the short term (excessive bleeding, fatigue, etc) and I don't have any of them, so it isn't likely that I am getting too much estrogen. But, my decision to stay on it is an informed one. The studies are there and I've read them. I can't say the same for anybody who chooses to stay on Depoprovera though. IMO, if a person reads the studies for that, they'd get off it instantly.

Anyway, all that to say I do sway toward "western medicine" and pharmaceutical drugs mainly because I know my way in and out of pills and research on pills.:D My dad was in the pharma industry and I just know where to get the info and which companies to trust.:shrug: I can't say the same for herbal things, but if a reliable source suggests something to me, with enough back up, I'm not so closed minded as to not consider it.:shrug:

February 5th, 2007, 10:46 AM
I'm glad this thread didn't turn ugly, I'm also enjoying reading all the opinions here.

Something, that I'm sure has been mentioned before, is that many people who distrust "western medicine" (and I distrust it a great deal, myself!) seem to think that because something wasn't "made in a lab" that it's safer. The word Natural is used by a lot of the alternative companies to sort of say, "hey, this is safer than anything else because, well, it's natural."

February 5th, 2007, 11:18 AM
Yeah, exactly. And I say that there are plenty of natural things that can kill you and do much worse than a lot of pills.

February 5th, 2007, 11:56 AM
I am reminded how everything comes full circle by the vioxx discussion. <g> A few yrs ago on this same board, I explained my viewpoint on vioxx as a physician - I would NEVER prescribe it because I had a friend who works with NIH and they had done studies in 1999 that showed some of the side effects of this medication. Celebrex has some of the same effects but the panel kept it on in the US. The fact is though that all Naiad's - tho vioxx and celebrex were supposed to be somewhat different in that they did not affect the stomach - are contraindicated in people with gastrointestinal problems. But these studies by the NIH were available publicly to anyone - physician or health care consumer (and frankly physicians are both - we get sick too as I can well attest). So, one did not need to have an MD or a PhD in biochemistry to know where to find that study. That info was out there. It is just that too many ppl imho depend on "the media" at large who really just highlight the dramatic stuff and these first few studies did not capture the attention of the media and when I mentioned it here and elsewhere, ppl said much the same thing as ppl are doing now vis a vis herbal products.

I think the bottom line is that every single product we put in our system has side effects and they all act differently depending on who we are, what other meds and herbs and products we are taking , what we eat, what other medical conditions we have so none of us can make some statement saying herbs are safe or that all prescription drugs are safe.

I work with medications for cancer patients and they have some horrid side effects and part of my research studies people who have taken these meds when they were younger to see how they impacted later. Just because a medication one took when you were 10 did not create probs then, who is to say it will not later? The fact is - and this is in a way personal for me because I was required to have so much diagnostic imaging as a child (tho we called them Xrays back then) that I am now prone to cancer.

I do not want to scare people because there are some good drugs out there but it does irk me that the meds being developed by the pharmaceutical industry tend to be the money makers and ones that even address illnesses that are not really illnesses at all. (in the sense they are not life threatening or will not seriously disrupt someone's life. ED comes to mind here - read Marcia Angell's book and you will see what I mean.)

That said, we have to work with what we have and try to find the best protocol for people who are dying. I have one patient who does very well on a medication that is being discontinued by a company because it does not make money. Now if only they would sell their patent to a company in a country (this co. is in the US where profit seems to rule in drug companies who claim they have to spend so much money on research but I have been involved in some of that research and they use university research - already paid for by taxpayers' money. They do have some of their own researchers but they depend very much on universities, most of whom see little of the profits). However, now I have to find another alternative for her and unfortunately=, with a disease that affects a few ppl - and cancer is not just one illness (for years, breast cancer studies were done on men so the gender bias is another one that bothers me, never mind that studies rarely include children - and we then have to ascertain how to use drugs made for adults on tiny babies- one of my key areas of research, along with pain relief in pediatrics).

That said, the study and research by medications is strictly controlled by the govts in the US and Canada - in some areas, Canada is better. In others, the US. If I figured out why, I'd be very happy, lol (For example, the US is very opposed to the use of narcotics and these meds for ppl with severe pain are excellent - people in pain rarely ever become addicted but in the US, doctors who prescribe narcotics are looked upon and harassed by the FDA. It's better in Canada - less so in Quebec for some reason - but if one had to choose between morphine or codeine which may have short term effects when it is carefully monitored and an NSAID that in the end leaves you with one half a stomach, what would you choose? Even acetaminophen is less safe than aspirin (except in pediatrics where it can cause Reye's Syndrome - one of very first articles every published in Lancet so it is one I that I will never forget for obvious reasons). Acetaminophen taken over long periods of time can cause serious liver and kideny problems.

One example of this is the fact we in Canada can get acetaminophen or ASA with codeine (8 mg of codeine) OTC while this is not avail in the US except in Calif and a few other states where it is avail for 2 mg. Yet, Canada does not allow the sale of Aleve or Naproxen Sodium - which like all NSAID's (think of meds like vioxx) at all, even OTC. It must be with a script. Codeine is a great med - like all meds, it has side effects, but the small amt of narcotic means it is hard to lead to addiction (tho there are always ppl who will abuse it which is why pharmacies are careful who they sell it to) and naproxen sodium can cause serious digestive problems. Yet because it does not lead to addiction, ppl think it is just fine. It prob is worse than codeine if one takes everything in to account.

The fact is many ppl knew about vioxx and any health consumer who was prescribed it by his or her doctor should have asked why should I take this, why is it better - it did cost more after all if one has no plan and where I practice, 30% of people do not have a prescription plan so I have to try to find cheaper meds (which usually means one where the patent no longer exists and there are generics available). A friend of mine who is not a physician - tho she is a politician and not given to anyone, including her physician - telling her what to do - was given samples of vioxx. She researched them as well she should have and discovered the NIH studies, asked me my opinion - and I gave her a copy of what most pain researchers thought of their side effects and she threw them out. his was in 1999.

This is not to say I hold people responsible for their own problems f they took vioxx but I do think we all have some responsibility. I want my patients to ask questions and if they have a medication that works for them, I want to hear about it.

But herbal remedies are sold in the same way non medical products are sold. There are a few good companies who have credible quality control but they are not the majority. For most, it is a profit making operation and they are not subject to the same demands that the company that made vioxx was. I could open a company tomorrow, call some product the greatest thing since sliced bread and with good marketing and maybe .0001 % of a certain herb, market it as that herb. There is one herbal reme3dy marketed on TV and sold for an outrageous price that one can buy at WalMart for maybe $9.99 (and it works well for dogs and some ppl I know say it has helped them but it has done nothing for me. I prob have too much pain.) Still, the thing is you do not know what you are getting since there is no requirement that a company say what % of that so called remedy is in that product. I think if ppl are going to use herbal products - for themselves, their children and their pets - they need to lobby govts got better evaluation and the same kind of rigorous review that drugs are put through.

And we also need to lobby for govts to pressure drug companies to ensure meds we may need when we are very ill with say cancer or MS (not big money makers but life savers) are available!!

Anyway - this is an interesting debate. While I am hesitant to take herbal products because of the lack of quality control and poor evaluation, I am also cautious in both my prescribing habits as well as what I take myself. And I do wish people would not simply listen to those TV ads and come in to their doctor and say I ant this. No one, not even a family doctor, is in a position to instantly know if that med is safe for that person. If we put some of the money used just to market Cialis or Viagra and their ilk into cancer research, I think we'd all be better off. Even those drugs are not entirely safe and can lead to cardiac problems. Fortunately, as a pediatrician, no one has ever asked for those meds. lol

The herbal sister of vioxx is kava. In its actual form - and I have tasted the real thing off Australia in Tuvalu - kava is an excellent sedative. But the stuff that is marketed in North America can be fatal to the liver and I myself have seen several cases of aplastic anemia caused by kava intake in teenagers. Thus, it has been delisted and is no longer available in pharmacies. It is prob available in some health food stories - and I did see it in the US at a dollar store - tho one can guess at the amt of the actual medication in that particular box. I was tempted to buy it jut to test it but I knew it was prob worthless. (and my time would be wasted).

Even valerian - which some say is good as a sleep aid - can cause, like Tylenol - liver and kidney problems.

I could go on. All meds and herbal remedies have side effects - with some worse depending on the person. And of course ppl tend to think because something is on the shelf, it must be OK. They do not stop to think that acetaminophen for example, might also be in their cold med, their combination antihistamine product - you know what I mean.

Anyway - we just all need to be more vigilant about what we take, what we allow others to administer to us. The real difference is that herbal remedies have way too few protective layers in place and almost no regulation.

February 7th, 2007, 08:16 AM
It can be frustrating when you are trying to get a point across on this type of venue. I have said several times now there is a place for western medicine. Don't disupte it for a minute. And, yes if one is taking a western protocol that is working for them they should do it. And, yes western medicine has been great when it comes to vaccines over the years, surgery, trauma etc. What I am saying is for most chronic illnesses western medicine doesn't offer cures but a lot of meds. Because western meds are notorious for side effects to me it would be better to find an alternative. I am much more interested in healing than submerging symptoms.
Thus, the idea of metaphysics and that all things come from thought. We are not victims in any illness, that is what I believe. I believe we created them and we can heal. This is a long study and practice so don't jump down my throat about saying we create our disease. It is a complicated paradigm but one I agree and believe in. We are creating our experience and that is my point.
My dog has seizures and I choose not to give him hard hitting drugs. If my child had seizures, I would follow the same protocol as I do my dog. If herbs, acupuncture and homeopathy can stop his seizures, I am much more interested in that treatment. If it fails, so far it has done great, i would put him on medicine. Why would I choose the hard hitting meds off the bat instead of trying alternative first? It is easier on his system and I am treating all of him not just the seizure. To me, any illness is just a symptom of something imbalanced in our bodies. We can find the balance we can reduce or rid the symptom. I can only look at the whole person I can never just look at a symptom!
Again, western paradigm looks at symptoms not the person nor is it terrbily big on prevention. It is getting a little better in the area of prevention. This is due mostly to heart disease and obesity in America.
Homeopathy is a part of holistic medicine. Holistic medicine, to me, contains all alternative methods of healing. Homeopathy is under that category. Homeopathy is also a very complicated study. Whether you believe in it or not, it is difficult to understand. A good diet, which most of you agree with, is also under the scope of holistic not western!
Perhaps, due to my own life and the diseases I have had my veiw on western medicine has been altered. In all my cases, and their were quite a few, western medicine told me I would have them forever. In every instance, I have healed, and it was not due to western medicine. So, I can only speak from my own experience. Healing is a long journey and is so much more than just submerging a symptom. Healing and curing to me are two different things.
I also understand from some responses that people aren't jiggy with the Spiritual side. For me, life makes no sense without the spiritual side. I am not talking religion here I am talking Spirit. I believe no matter what we chose, we should take it to God and pray about it. This way we have a better knowing if it is the right protocol! I also agree God created Doctors to heal, medicines to heal and herbs to heal. They are all valuable in their place. Again, healing, curing and submerging are three different things. I will not agree that alternative medicines are less safe then western. That is not the overall data.:pawprint:

February 7th, 2007, 11:29 AM
Again, western paradigm looks at symptoms not the person nor is it terrbily big on prevention. It is getting a little better in the area of prevention. This is due mostly to heart disease and obesity in America.
Homeopathy is a part of holistic medicine. Holistic medicine, to me, contains all alternative methods of healing. Homeopathy is under that category. Homeopathy is also a very complicated study. Whether you believe in it or not, it is difficult to understand. A good diet, which most of you agree with, is also under the scope of holistic not western!

Many of those who practise "western" medicine look at the whole person, or animal as the case may be.Disagree with most of your post above.

February 7th, 2007, 01:43 PM
I disagree with most of it too.

A good diet, which most of you agree with, is also under the scope of holistic not western! How is a commercial diet western? That's just ridiculous. Ask people in the east what they're feeding their dogs and it won't even compare to the holistic foods we have here. Your black and white categories seem to be more gray than you'll ever realize.

February 9th, 2007, 06:50 AM
I am trying to convey points without being overly lengthy thus may be coming across as black and white.

When I say Western Medicine does not look at the whole person, I mean that if you have an infection and I have the same one we will both be given an antibiotic to cure it. Thus, treating by symptom. I would take it, don't get me wrong, but it is a paradigm built on symptoms.

Diet definatly comes under holistic. In America, there are plenty of pet owners that are feeding their animals crap! You can't believe how uneducated in this area they are. Chosing high quality food for our animals seems to be an agreement on this web. My point is, holistic has always understood diet and illness and correlations where Western Medicine has just caught up to that recently. In disease with our animals, especially dogs, we are realizing the correlation between grains and illness thus changing the perspective of what to feed our dogs. That is a Holisitc approach. My Western Vet had no interest in discussing his diet, changing it. He was lets do drugs!

It just seems that no matter what I say you are going to argue. I am not sure why that is?

Like I said, there is a place for all forms of medicine. I think it is a little naive to think that western medicine didn't market it itself and at this point pharmacuticals are all about the Green. Insurance companies and Pharmacuticals are running Western Medicine right now. In America anyway. It is obvious to most consumers here.

You are passionate for Western Medicine and I for alternative. I guess our experience and education have created our dedication to these paradigms. My hope is they will converge because they both have a lot to offere and learn from one another. :goodvibes: :pawprint:

Metaphysics is a totally different topic.

February 9th, 2007, 10:06 AM
I think if your vet and physician do not look at the whole picture and only push drugs,I would look at finding better ones,and that has nothing to do with western medicine imo.

February 9th, 2007, 12:44 PM
That is a Holisitc approach. My Western Vet had no interest in discussing his diet, changing it. He was lets do drugs!Then you need a new vet. That has nothing to do with East or West. Is eating healthy an Eastern thing? :confused:

February 10th, 2007, 02:36 PM
No, eating healthy is not an eastern thing. I say it is a holistic.

And, I did change vets a long time ago.

I work with a holistic vet that treats with acupuncture, herbs and we discuss diet. I feel it is our duty to be informed as consumers and animal owners. If we are educated, we can demand better treatment. Demand creates surplus. There was a time when it would have been much harder to find a holistic vet now they are easy to find. Demand/surplus.

Western medicine definatly has its place and area of expertise but it is by no means the end all be all. Anything with value must be able to evlove and change. Nothing worth its while is stagnant. Nothing is perfect and everything has room for improvement. I think open minds create the future. Certainly in this world of surplus there is room for more than one form of medicine or one type of thought. :pawprint:

February 10th, 2007, 02:43 PM
Anyone want to talk about the homeopathic remedies they have used that worked?I would like to hear more.

February 10th, 2007, 02:50 PM
I have worked with homeopathic remedies. I am working with a homeopath for both myself and my dog. Was there something in particular you wanted to know or did you just want over view?

We used stramonium for my dog. He did not have a seizure for 4 months after that remedy. We are now trying a different one and I am using anafloras from a woman in CA. Homeopathy does work but you have to give it time and find the right remedy.

Homeopathy is based on like treating like. For instance, the remedy gives the same symptoms that the disease shows up as. The remedies come from different bases such as plant, night shades, poison, etc. They are dilluted such that it is the essence you are taking. It works on the energy of the patient. It is fascinating and very complicated at the same time. :goodvibes:

February 10th, 2007, 02:58 PM
He didn't have a seizure for 4 months and then he did have a seizure?

February 10th, 2007, 03:02 PM
Is this the one you mean?

February 10th, 2007, 03:06 PM
I found the remedy of Ipecac worked really well to stop nausea when my kitty had kidney failure.

Here is an article from pets that explains homeopathics a bit more:

Dr. Pitcairn offers more information on dosage and remedies for other specific problems:

February 10th, 2007, 03:10 PM
I had not heard of ipecac being used homepathically,and am glad you found it helpful.I did see this

February 10th, 2007, 03:13 PM
maybe you could cut and paste the article? The link doesn't seem to work, wants a password login etc..

February 10th, 2007, 03:18 PM

"Sidebar: Ipecac as Used in Homeopathy
As this article points out, ipecac's safety and efficacy are questionable. A little-known fact is that ipecac is also found in homeopathic remedies under its genus name, Ipecacuanha. While ipecac has been used in Western medicine to induce vomiting, in homeopathic medicine ipecac is used in highly diluted doses to stop vomiting. The safety and efficacy of homeopathic ipecac have never been proven in controlled clinical trials. Nevertheless, due to exemptions in federal laws, it will remain in homeopathic products, despite the fate of legitimate ipecac products. Pharmacists should not assume that its continuing presence therein denotes any proof of safety or efficacy for ipecac for any use."

February 10th, 2007, 03:36 PM
No prob, thanks!

I think it's always a good reminder to research any product before using. Doctors, pharmacists, professionals can't always be relied on to know thier medicine a 100%.

February 10th, 2007, 03:43 PM
I agree some research is always a good idea.And while I am glad you found the homeopathic remedy helpful,I must admit with my research they sound like placebos.I continue to try and learn more.

February 10th, 2007, 04:46 PM
I guess my kitty was convinced the vomiting would stop each time he had his little pills.;)

I was also sceptical at first but I really couldn't argue with the results in his case.:shrug: I've had less luck with myself.

It wasn't very long ago that doctors were refuting the benefits of handwashing: I think we tend to over estimate how far we've come. During each era people seems to think they are so advanced and then we look back a few years and see how ignorant we really were.

February 10th, 2007, 05:08 PM
I agree we have come a long way!

An article on homeopathy,some may not like it:

February 10th, 2007, 06:27 PM
I've found most articles I've read on Quackwatch to be extremely one-sided.

February 10th, 2007, 06:41 PM
Definitely,their focus is busting quacks.

February 10th, 2007, 06:51 PM
I saw little information in the article to prove that it doesn't work. A good practitioner will be very honest about the fact it is not well understood why it works and that it is not fool proof. If it works for some people I hope they won't be shamed into thinking they are using quackery.

February 10th, 2007, 07:05 PM
I think that is the problem,as Prin posted earlier.There are no double blind studies proving anything,and it has been around a LONG time.Far as I know there is no proof the remedies have anything other than water or milk sugar in them.

February 10th, 2007, 09:31 PM
I agree homeopathics is not well understood. I've only had my personal experiences with it and heard of other people having positive results or no results at all.

I don't know what your views are LL1 but I don't think it makes much sense that a great number of people will have total faith in something like the after life and then want scientific proof for something relatively safe like homeopathics.:shrug:

February 10th, 2007, 09:42 PM
Well, I don't believe in an afterlife and I don't believe in lack of science, either. Placebo effect is a "bad" term, but really placebo is HUGE. The mind is a huge part of everything, and if we can change our attitudes and really believe we are healing ourselves, then that is a good thing. But that's where the double blind studies come in to tell us what is really the effect of the pill/threatment vs the effect of the mind thinking that a treatment is working.

February 10th, 2007, 11:15 PM
I also believe in science, my point is just that if it works for some people/animals and it isn't harmful why discourage it. I don't think there would be a plecebo effect with animals. I was possibly bias thinking it was working for my cat when really it may have been a coincidence. It's just that it went on for years where if I didn't give him the Ipecac he'd continue to be sick for hours but if I gave him the remedy he seemed to almost emediately have his appetite back. I wonder if maybe we just can't see the scientific reason yet just as we didn't understand what bacteria was at one time.

It looks like there has been a little bit of research:

I don't really know how accurate this information is of course.

February 10th, 2007, 11:47 PM
The placebo effect on animals would be more them feeding off our emotions than them assuming a pill they're taking is working. Our pets follow our feelings very closely and if we're feeling hopeless and scared, they'll feel it versus us feeling happy and hopeful.:shrug:

February 11th, 2007, 01:17 AM
That is a good explanation of how the placebo effect might work with our pets. Testing would need to be done in a laboratory setting to take that aspect away I guess.

February 11th, 2007, 08:14 AM
Prin you don't believe in an afterlife:rip:? May I ask why?:angel: Of course, you don't have to answer I am just curious? :goodvibes:

February 11th, 2007, 08:31 AM
Is this the one you mean?
I think you would want to look it up in the homeopathic version. Yes, that is the plant but when dilluted the energy is all that is left. Here is a site you can look at:
I think if you want to understand homeopathy better or even want to argue that it is quackery, you need to educate yourself on how it works. Any good book that tells the story of Sam Hahnemann, the time line of homeopathy or how the paradigm works is a good place to start. To just say it is quackery when you have no understanding or education on this topic, I think it inappropriate. To look at a couple of sites and say oh there are no clinical trials and it is all hog wash is rather complacent. If you really want to argue against it, than know what you are talking about. Again, this is a very complicated paradigm. Animals and children respond to it wonderfully. They don't have the same baggage as us adults. To me, I don't understand why there isn't room for more than one type of medical paradigm?

Yes, Rory did have a seizure after 4 months but that was compared to having 3 a month before hand. You work with homeopathics just as you would western meds. Often times in western medicine when you are treating something chronic, you need to work with different medications and doses until you find the right one. Why is that OK for western medicine but not for anything alternative?

I think one needs to be open minded in all areas of life. We are evolving as a species. There will come a time when we will look back at how we treated certain things and say oh my goodness that was barbaric. I believe, the new frontier of medicine is vibration, light and frequency. Bacteria, for instance, lives at a frequency and can't tolerate other frequencies. This will be how we conqure them not by antibiotics! It is the new frontier:crazy: man, hold on we are starting to move at the speed of light!:goodvibes:

February 11th, 2007, 10:47 AM
I think if you want to understand homeopathy better or even want to argue that it is quackery, you need to educate yourself on how it works. Any good book that tells the story of Sam Hahnemann, the time line of homeopathy or how the paradigm works is a good place to start. To just say it is quackery when you have no understanding or education on this topic, I think it inappropriate. To look at a couple of sites and say oh there are no clinical trials and it is all hog wash is rather complacent. If you really want to argue against it, than know what you are talking about.

I actually have been reading up on it and discussing it with physicians and users of the remedies for several years.I would like to learn more.

February 11th, 2007, 06:44 PM
One great movie that discusses quantum physics is "What the bleep do we know." Also, I have heard a new movie called "The Secret" is coming out. I think both have web site. Some really good books are Science of the Mind by Ernest Holmes and anything written by Joel Goldsmith. :pawprint:

February 11th, 2007, 06:46 PM
LL1 I will try to find some good books or web sites you can use. It is a pretty intricate system. :thumbs up

February 11th, 2007, 06:54 PM
Prin you don't believe in an afterlife:rip:? May I ask why?:angel: Of course, you don't have to answer I am just curious? :goodvibes:

Why would I? :shrug:

February 12th, 2007, 06:21 AM
Hi LL1 here is a pretty good web site. I think it will give you a lot of information. It is :dog:

Prin, your funny!;) OK, if you don't believe in after life than where does your Spirit go>:shrug: What about Albert Einstein's work on equivalance of energy and matter? He was a scientist, which you seem to dig, and he proved that you can't kill energy. It has to pass into some other form. So, when you die you don't stop existing, you just change forms. If that is the case, where do you go? :goodvibes:
" The important thing is to not stop questioning" Albert Einstein:pawprint:

I am sure you guessed? I absolutely, unequivocally believe in an after life:angel:

February 12th, 2007, 12:45 PM
Just food for thought...

February 12th, 2007, 03:39 PM
Prin, your funny!;) OK, if you don't believe in after life than where does your Spirit go>:shrug: What about Albert Einstein's work on equivalance of energy and matter? Our energy is converted back into organic matter and is recycled into different life forms, gasses and elements.:shrug: You can't create energy, nor make energy disappear, but who says the soul has its own energy without the energy from the vessel carrying it?

February 13th, 2007, 06:25 AM
:angel: What do you say about all the near death experiences? :cloud9:

February 13th, 2007, 11:03 AM
:angel: What do you say about all the near death experiences? :cloud9:

What about them? The mind can do amazing things when the body has had a trauma. Seeing God or whatever when you feel scared and like you're going to die is very comforting, right?

February 13th, 2007, 02:03 PM
The placebo effect or whatever term one wishes to use is not as well understood as is thought. I understand that some patients can psychologically believe something works. The problem is that a placebo will not help a neoplasm or help a fracture heal or aid a punctured lung. I DO believe positive thinking will help though, if only because it enhances serotonin levels and our immune system.

That said, I am not a fan of studies that utilize placebo es in drug trials because it tells you very little. Alas, some still use them much to the dismay of many of us who do research. For example, if one invents a new say antibiotic, it is much better to test it against other antibiotics in terns of efficacy than a placebo but what some drug companies do - or pay univ researchers to do - is to test a "new" antibiotic vs a placebo. What does that tell us? Nothing, really. On the hand, the former trial - esp if it is done with proper methodology and preferably double blind design - will at least inform us if the newer drug is more efficacious than the older medication. It is useless to simply study a new drug compared to a placebo unless there are certain circumstances that warrant it.

Alas, some still use placeboes as explained in this article:

February 18th, 2007, 08:07 AM
:angel: Well, the mind can do amazing things but how do you explain stories of people who come back and can tell you everything that happend while they were dead. Like if they are in a hospital, they can tell you what people said, what the hospital staff tried, who was in the room, etc. I mean if you are dead than your mind is dead. So, how do you explain that?:thumbs up :) :goodvibes: :pawprint:

I think when it comes to alternative people are either open minded or they aren't. I think our experiences really effect us. I was very ill for a period and western medicine could only do soo much for me. I really wanted to heal so I was set on a journey. In the end, I believe that faith and the mind heal more than anything. I do believe we create our experiences and can change the manifestation. Having said that, I am a novice and I continue to learn and pray. As scripture says believe it until you see it. At first that was such a hard concept. Now, 10 years into this study and practice, I don't believe anything I see and especially hear! This is the world of matter and it is finite and will end. We have decided as a group mind what we will tolerate as truth at this point. We are evolving as a species though and as we use more of our brains we will change our understanding of the Universe as we see it now:candle:
I have also learned most people, whether it be alternative or western, have agendas. So, at the end of the day we need to be savvy consumers and listen to the small voice within:pray: :usa:

February 18th, 2007, 11:22 AM
How do people know their mind is busy when they're dead for a few minutes? Couldn't it be that in the few seconds after they are revived, or the few seconds before they shut down that their mind processes hundreds of things?

February 18th, 2007, 12:09 PM
I think that is an astute comment Tully - that it comes down to our experiences. It may very well also depend on what kind of illnesses we are discussing or even if we are just looking at preventive health care ,also very important. I started taking a multivitamin even tho I know it is so much better to get nutrients from good food but I keep forgetting to take the blasted thing, lol (Plus, why are vitamins so huge - well except ones I bought once at Walgreens in the US - will have to get my folks to get me some there.)

Some ppl - a man I spoke with last nite comes to mind 0 also will tell you religion helped them as well and I suppose if you look at some of these alternative stuff as new age religion, then it makes sense for some ppl. I just hope it never prevents ppl from getting the correct medical care they need - like if you break your foot, it needs western medicine - but if you want to use say hypnosis tio help you cope with the pan, that's up to you. Same goes for cancer and chemotherapy and believe I understand ppl who say no to chemo (people, not parents re their children).

And I do believe we need to be fighting cancer in so many other ways - ie by being an environmentalist and not just in the treatment of it. We have come along way in the treatment of cancer but we still are not preventing it and that tells me we as a society are doing something wrong!!!! (and I don't mean we have more cancers because ppl live to older ages; There really are more cancers and certain types of cancers are seen more than they were before, even per capita.) It is not an impressive record.

Anyway - sorry to get off on my issue again, sigh!!

I DO use some so called alternate therapy for my cats when I give them that herb suggested by a vet - IO forget the name just now - and of course, Rescue Remedy which works and we do not know really why. But I've never given them anything else. (unless we include catnip as an herb.)

Anyway - it is an intriguing discussion. <g>

February 18th, 2007, 12:27 PM
:angel: To me, Spirituality and Religion are two very different things. Religion was founded by man and Sprituality, to me, is our own personal walk with God. So, I am not Religious just want to keep making that clear!:thumbs up

:lovestruck: I believe the more conscience we become we are more aware of how we treat all things. I am a huge supporter of organic farming and really think we need to be conservative with our environment. The amount of pesticides used is a concern. People treat their lawns with it, we spray our foods with it and pollute the air. People chose to be asleep instead of waking up to the bond we all have with one another and the Universe. Hopefully, this will start to change. Also, I believe our thoughts and the words we use can be a million times more toxic than anything we ingest or put into the air.

Prin, if you are dead :rip: you are dead:rip: . That includes your mind. NDR's tell stories of what happend from the minute they left their bodies. They don't just tell what happend the minute before the woke back up. :goodvibes: Prin you see it and then you believe, I don't believe what I see, ah salmon egg roll!:grouphug::pawprint:

February 18th, 2007, 12:33 PM
Organic farming is a whole other debate. ;)

I don't need to see everything to believe it, but if there are other possibilities, I'll consider them.

I could have died 6 years ago from a massive head trauma and nothing remarkable happened to me (other than that I permanently lost my 20/20 vision :rolleyes: ), :shrug:, but a friend of a friend hit a tree skiing and died, and two weeks before his death, he had sent a letter to everybody in his life telling them what they meant to him. :shrug: Who knows? But I won't have faith in anything blindly. Everything is a possibility because we just don't know till we get there.

February 18th, 2007, 03:00 PM
:dog: Oh no, you are against organic farming too?:shrug:
Well, I do know an after life is waiting for me and God is as real as you and me talking right now! :cloud9:

February 18th, 2007, 03:09 PM
There was an article in the Economist recently that stated studies that showed if the world had converted too organic farming, there wouldn't be enough food to feed everybody. And some things, like peanuts and honey just shouldn't be organic for our own safety.

As for God or god, there is a genetic link to believing too. They have found a gene that, when present in a certain form, drastically increases the chances of a person being a believer.

February 19th, 2007, 05:40 AM
:crazy: I must have the gene +++++++:angel: OK Prin, I must know what is your birth sign? I know you don't believe but I am curious. I am leaning toward water but I am not that great at guessing:goodvibes:

February 20th, 2007, 05:41 AM
:dog: OK Prin, was my question to personal?:sorry: Well, I am an Aquarian:thumbs up There I said it! LOL:goodvibes:

February 20th, 2007, 11:20 AM
I had not noticed the discussion re Albert Einstein - love his work - He was very much not a believe in the after life and I think he would be upset to have anyone suggest his work on energy fields, his theory of relativity,an explanation of the Brownian movement of molecules and matter (and antimatter et al) and sop many more I just can't enumerate right now..suggest he believed in after life. One of the quotes I always recall for some reason he said 9I read his bio several times) is when he wrote:

"I came though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve"

In the book "Albert Einstein: the Human Side" , he also wrote "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.["

His science convinced him after life was not something that really existed as we think of it. He would see molecules and energy fields as remaining but how one derives life from that is another issue (I almost said matter there, lol)

It really just helps us understand some of the science behind it all. Then again, some do not agree with Einstein either but his record is pretty stellar.

I really want to believe in an afterlife - but I am not keen on organized religion. They take all the fun out of it, lol (Well they do now - I have played guitar at Church (Catholic) and coming from a Jewish-Catholic family, I have had a different experience than some. I do not see any one religion or religion period as having all the answers. I am more of a cultural Jewish Catholic and a scientist who has seen a few miracles I cannot figure out. Which is to say I have not given up on spirituality but there are still too many questions...

I think all this interest in the Da Vinci Code and such books is interesting even if much of it gets some of the theology wrong. But I do want to read more of the Gnostic gospels again - I read them like 15 yrs ago or so when I was younger and it sometimes amazes me that ppl think this debate is new.

Anyway - do not want to go offtrack, lol

February 20th, 2007, 11:39 AM
I'm water and air. ;)

February 20th, 2007, 01:43 PM
I'm water and air. ;)

You mean your sun sign is water and your rising is air? Come on girl, what is your sign?:crazy: :goodvibes: :pawprint:

HM, I was just talking about what Einstein proved about matter and energy. I didn't say anything about his spiritual convictions. I don't really know that much about him. I think he was a genius and understood that we live in the form of matter that is very finite. His work was absolutely outside the box!

Again, I am not religious:pray: I am Spiritual. Two totally different things as far as I am concerned. And, I also grew up Catholic. I think Judiasm and Catholic have a whole lot in common. It is all about a bunch of doctrine that has nothing to do with one's relationship with God. Sorry, if I offend anyone but that is how I feel. :usa:

February 20th, 2007, 01:45 PM
I have two signs, water and air.

February 20th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Huh?:confused: How can you have two signs? Yes, you have 12 houses in a chart and one is sun, one is rising and one is moon but how do you have two signs? Unless you are born on the cusp but that really isn't two signs. You are :shrug: confusing me:yell: :D

February 20th, 2007, 02:10 PM
You can if you're in Quebec! :D In French, I'm a cancer, in English, I'm a gemini.:shrug:

February 20th, 2007, 04:52 PM
Huh Prin - here, in our bilingual household, if one is Libra in French, one is also Libra in English. What chart are you looking at?

no offense at all Tully and I do think too that Judaism and Catholicism have much in common,. In fact, I am part Irish Catholic and it has always occurred to me - even as a child - that Ireland and Israel and I have since lived in both countries, briefly) have a lot in common and I don't mean just because they begin with the letter I. They both represent a people who have persevered oppression and managed to overcome, both keep their tradition alive through spirituality (and no, I dio not mean the organized religion) and music and culture and they both seem to use politics wisely, lol Plus, they have managed to become part of so many places around the world - if you consider for example that the population of Ireland is about 4.5 million yet 40 million ppl around the word are of Irish descent. The same is true obviously for Israel - more jews live outside of the country.

Both also promote citizenship based on heritage. In Ireland, if one of grand parents came from that country, you can apply for citizenship and if you are Jewish, you can apply to become a citizen of Israel,. As someone who loves to vote in elections, I am a citizen of both Israel and Ireland - though I am a Canadian first and foremost!! I tend to use my Irish passport only in that country!! Same for the other one.

Anyway - that is a whole other matter ahem issue, lol

February 20th, 2007, 04:54 PM
CK, I'm right on the border (cusp or whatever) and in the French newspapers one starts a day earlier than in the English papers.

February 20th, 2007, 05:23 PM
Ahhh, I see Prin - very interesting!!! I am a Libra but 2 days short of being a Virgo, wonder if that applies to me, lol?

February 20th, 2007, 08:53 PM
Yes Cyber you would be on the cusp! Oh my gosh Prin, is your bday on june 22 because that is my husband's bday! I thought you were water but wasn't 100% sure. Libra, Cyber is Air just like me:thumbs up And, your right Prin it is air and water if you count the cusp, tricky very tricky!

Good points Cyber about Isreal and Ireland. Never thought of it that way. Lots of tradition and family loyalty! My husband's mom came from County Kerry. John, my hubby, looks more irish than anyone I know! He is the whitest white boy!!! LOL:eek: She came here at 17 had her brouge until she died just last May:rip: We went there for our honeymoon it is gorgeous have you been? And, yes I am off:offtopic: :pawprint: :dog::usa:

February 20th, 2007, 11:33 PM
My grandparents - emigrants both - and my dad who was born there too but came to Canada at 6 so it's different for him (He has a French accent, lol) - never lost their brogue. I have been to Ireland often - and to Israel. I own a home in Dublin and have taught there worked at Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children Crumlin - tho my home is closer to Trinity College than to UCD amd Our Lady's children's where the pediatric oncology and hematology unit is located (or as they wold write, haematology. I am in the process of helping to develop a telemedicine link with them and our hospital. Our Lady's is already affiliated with St. Jude's and with Children's in Boston where I did my own Residencies. I know the one in Boston intimately well and I worked at St. Jude's in co-ordinating hematological and oncological protocols post Hurricane Katrina - tho the satellite in Baton Rouge and not the main center ion Tennessee. When I am not conducting pain research, I do a lot of research and development in the area of telemedicine (ie performing surgery or some other procedure when the surgeon - whether it's me or someone esle - is in Halifax- and the patient is 7 hours away. We have not done this overseas yet though but we will be doing medical education, some counseling with groups from Canada, US and Ireland and participation in a variety of depts. I am more concerned with hematology and oncology to be frank. <g>

I love Ireland - could easily live there. My grandmother was born in Galway and my grandfather is from Dublin and my dad (me da) was born in Dublin. When I am over there working - which has been awhile now, (sigh!!), I also study Gaelic and am just beginning th Advanced level, Alas, when I say gaelic in Nova Scotia, everyone assumes you mean Scottish Gaelic - tho it's also good to see that language also being kept alive. In fact, my office manager teaches ppl how to play bagpipes and my bf - who is from West Mabou in Cape Breton, plays the fiddle, and other instruments. (I've come to the conclusion everyone in Mabou plays the fiddle, lol) I play the piano, guitar, recorder (tho who doesn't play that thing, lol), ukulele - also commonly taught in schools in th4e Maritimes so many ppl know that one too, the organ and a bunch of other instruments. My fav is the piano. (tho I rarely seem tio find time to play them - sometimes at the hospital for the kids or at Church or synagogue, that's it!!)

I also lived on a Kibbutz in Israel for a brief time - when it was a trendy thing to do and everyone with a gram of Jewish blood -and some who did not - thought they had to try it out. I worry about it now since it is close to the border with Lebanon.

Have you been to Ireland or Israel? I know it sounds silly but the first time I arrived in Ireland, I cried - thinking of all the people from the Great Hunger who had to leave a place they loved. I guess I am just too sentimental for my own good, lol

February 21st, 2007, 07:20 AM
:crazy: WOW! You have been around the Globe! I not so much. Yes, we went to Ireland for honeymoon and I loved it. That was over 18 years ago. I am not a big fan of travel, more a home body, hate flying. So, I will have to live vicariously through you. I mean we do travel but if I can get there by car I am happy;) My husband's mom is from Ireland and he met some of his first cousins for the first time when we went on the honeymoon.

Sounds like you do interesting work:goodvibes:

My grandmother had perfect picth and could play any song on the piano if you hummed it to her. She was incredible. My mom, could, woulda, shoulda, was going to be a concert pianist but ended up having 5 kids and a divorce, ha! That piano gene some how missed me. Well, actually I sing and was going to be a rock star and sang with bands for awhile way back when. But, God had better stuff like husband, kids and doggies for me. Thank goodness!:angel:

We are off to look at colleges for the next three days. I hope I don't miss any super conversation about the infinite Universe while I am gone:eek:

February 21st, 2007, 05:22 PM
Oh my gosh Prin, is your bday on june 22 because that is my husband's bday! No, I'm on the 21st. The 22nd is just Cancer.:D

February 21st, 2007, 07:35 PM
So, you are gemini albiet the last day. Got that confused. :goodvibes: