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and they call themselves "soldiers"?? ****Disturbing Video***

technodoll
January 17th, 2007, 01:04 PM
Soldiers taunt crippled dog in Iraq

This is a video of several sick-in-the-head US soldiers throwing rocks and laughing at a poor dog with a very severe spinal deformity, who was obviously suffering even before they started abusing the poor, wretched animal.
****** VERY DISTURBING VIDEO ****
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6445f9fdd7

I guess they couldn't find any Iraquis to blow up that day... so yeah, big men, torture a crippled poor dog instead, laugh, point fingers, film it and put it up on the internet. Isn't the war cool and dandy? :mad:

(going in a corner to punch something before my brain explodes) :sad:

Hunter's_owner
January 17th, 2007, 01:06 PM
I'm not going to open it, I will just take your word for it.

It really is horrible that they can act like that.:frustrated:
WTH is wrong with people:mad:

That poor poor doggie:sad:

Rottielover
January 17th, 2007, 01:07 PM
That is sick....I am sure something can be done about it

happycats
January 17th, 2007, 01:12 PM
I didn't open it.......I just can't:sad: I have enough horrific images burned in my brain as it is.

I wish someone would send this to a big US news group (CNN maybe).
Maybe if the world see's and complains, something will be done.

technodoll
January 17th, 2007, 01:16 PM
the video is disturbing in the sense you see big guys laughing and throwing stones at a crippled dog laying in sand, baring its teeth and growling and yelping in pain and fear, then it struggles to get up and limp away, totally deformed and in pain, starving and certainly homeless...

you really have to wonder, how heartless and cruel do you need to be to be a soldier? would it have hurt these "humans" to throw some food at the poor dog, instead of stones? you know? :sad: It takes a special kind if brutality to take such pleasure in hurting such a defenceless creature. You can only imagine what these guys are doing to the Iraqi people.

thank you Uncle Bush, thank you.

brandynva
January 17th, 2007, 02:28 PM
I wanted to jump in here and say something. As an American, I don't agree 100% with the war we are in. However, I think it is unfair to paint all of our soldiers and our president with the same brush based on a few people's sick brutality. President Bush did not personally select these soldiers to go over there. I know of many soldiers who would never stoop to this level of depravity and would be appalled that someone would even think that of them. It's the same with any stereotype anywhere. We have sick pedophiles and people who do cruel things all day long. Do we blame white men/women, black men/women, Americans, Canadians or whoever as a whole for it? No, we shake our heads at those that are responsible for the act. I think to accuse the entire military of being cruel and vicious is not fair to them.

I think it is sad that these few soldiers are representing my country and are acting in this manner. However, I do not look at all of our military as these kinds of people. I'm not trying to stir up something but I felt like I needed to speak up and say something.

Prin
January 17th, 2007, 02:38 PM
I watched about 3 sec of this video... The laughing did me in.:sad:

Shaykeija
January 17th, 2007, 03:02 PM
That was disgusting and in the end they ask do we kill it, do we kill it? You think that with all the killing going on over there, that they would protect all life. I think I will be forwarding this one to the White House.

Shaykeija
January 17th, 2007, 03:10 PM
I sent this to the VP

Vice President Richard Cheney, you should check this out.

Soldiers taunt crippled dog in Iraq

This is a video of several sick-in-the-head US soldiers throwing rocks and laughing at a poor dog with a very severe spinal deformity, who was obviously suffering even before they started abusing the poor, wretched animal.
****** VERY DISTURBING VIDEO ****
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6445f9fdd7

Is what your war is all about. No support from this Canadian. This war is another Vietnam. Remember that one?

This is his email address: vice_president@whitehouse.gov

jiorji
January 17th, 2007, 04:05 PM
umm well........i'm not going to see it, but think of the other things that go on. I'm sure they pick on kids and women and innocent men too :(

it just seems to me that the rules of war are this : if you're on enemy land you do as you please because theyre garbage. :sad: :mad: Disgusting. And I don';t think there's any discipline on this. Crippled dog...way to kick someone when they're down :sad:

Prin
January 17th, 2007, 04:11 PM
We just don't hear about the good, peaceful, hard-working soldiers, but they probably outnumber these sick frat boys...

Byrd
January 17th, 2007, 04:16 PM
The incredibly loud yelp from poochy and the gut bursting laughter at that.... :mad: Do they not have anything better to do?

technodoll
January 17th, 2007, 04:18 PM
i love the good stories... some soldiers even adopt homeless street dogs and bring them home with them after their tour of duty :o this story is not a happy one, i was sooo shocked because it never crossed my mind that so-called "peacekeepers" would even think to do a thing like that :sad:

brandynva
January 17th, 2007, 04:33 PM
I know I certainly hope that all of the military, no matter what country, would hold to a higher standard. It saddens me that the men in the video have such little regard for life, no matter if it's human or animal. It sadly is human nature to dwell on what is sensational or dramatic instead of focusing on the good.

rainbow
January 17th, 2007, 05:39 PM
I chose not to open the video but it sickens me to think of it. :mad: I don't know how many soldiers were involved in the video but you would think at least one of them would have the compassion to step up and stop the others. :sad:

Shamrock
January 17th, 2007, 06:46 PM
I wont view it either. I've conjured up the horrific images just reading the description...cant stomach such things.:yuck:

The horrors of war densititizes people in a survival mode. Throughout history we've known that it spawns atrocities.
When these are brought to light.. we are rightfuly repulsed and revolted by the inhumanity depicted..sadistic behaviour, mindless cruelty in the extreme.

But as mentioned, this in no way represents every soldier. There is the flip side to this evil. Compassion, mercy, acts of great kindness, even heroism.

I would guess that most soldiers in all wars fall in the middle ground somewhere..

What I'm wondering is.. why there IS a video of this abomination. Why are such acts often seemingly recorded?
That in itself is stomach-turning.

Byrd
January 17th, 2007, 06:56 PM
There are at least 3 and one of them actually says "okay, I have a video camera". :shrug:

Frenchy
January 17th, 2007, 08:11 PM
I sent this to the VP

Vice President Richard Cheney, you should check this out.

Soldiers taunt crippled dog in Iraq

This is a video of several sick-in-the-head US soldiers throwing rocks and laughing at a poor dog with a very severe spinal deformity, who was obviously suffering even before they started abusing the poor, wretched animal.
****** VERY DISTURBING VIDEO ****
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6445f9fdd7

Is what your war is all about. No support from this Canadian. This war is another Vietnam. Remember that one?

This is his email address: vice_president@whitehouse.gov

I just sent a comment too and everyone here should do the same. I didn't open the link . Just reading about it , the blood rushed to my head, like it does everytime I hear about animal cruelty.

Maya
January 17th, 2007, 08:17 PM
It sadly is human nature to dwell on what is sensational or dramatic instead of focusing on the good.
:sorry: but I disagree, I think it's more the opposite.

Most of the awful stuff that goes on in this world is because it is difficult for people to actually think about or imagine it but you need to if you are going to do anything to change it. If someone doesn't know about something awful going on or doesn't want to, how will they be able to stop it? We need to also focus on making things good for other's that are not able to do it themselves, which also means we have to focus on some not so nice stuff. The pet over population is a good example. I'm not dwelling on the "dramatic" or "sensational", I just feel we have a responsibility to make the world a good place for everyone. I won't open the video because i'm already traumatized from seeing horrible things and I wouldn't expect anyone else to, the description is enough. I just hope that some sort of justice comes out of it.

Frenchy
January 17th, 2007, 08:20 PM
I get what you're saying Maya, I don't like it when people "look the other way" and yes, we have to work "double" for the ones who doesn't want to change the world. I try to do my best.

Gazoo
January 17th, 2007, 08:38 PM
it just seems to me that the rules of war are this : if you're on enemy land you do as you please because theyre garbage.


They have to depersonalize the enemy and see them as less than human--its how they are trained and how they justify killing.

jiorji
January 17th, 2007, 08:43 PM
how they justify killing.

:eek: killing and violence are NEVER justified!! killing innocent ppl is NOT ok!! and things like these are inexcusable, no matter who the enemy is. The innocent people have nothing to do with what their gov'ts choose to do :shrug: They don't choose to die randomly by bombers and mines and "accidental" peace fires. :shrug: :mad:

killing can only be justified if both parties agree that they want to die.

technodoll
January 17th, 2007, 08:52 PM
They have to depersonalize the enemy and see them as less than human--its how they are trained and how they justify killing.

so now a small, crippled dog is the enemy?.. (talking about this particular awful incident) god save us all from this madness and the monsters who walk among us... :sad:

Gazoo
January 17th, 2007, 08:53 PM
^^^ I never said whether or not I agreed with the practice but historically that is the nature of fighting a war -- the enemy people are depersonalized and seen as sub-human, so the soldier can justify taking lives.

Prin
January 17th, 2007, 08:55 PM
In war, it's kill or be killed, so you have to get "used to" the fighting and killing...:shrug:

Byrd
January 17th, 2007, 08:59 PM
It would have to take that level of thinking to be able to go to war. :sick: Sick really, really sick.

technodoll
January 17th, 2007, 09:02 PM
what the h*ll does torturing a crippled dog have to do with war? :confused: :eek: :sad:

Gazoo
January 17th, 2007, 09:04 PM
Well if the enemy is seen as sub human -- animals don't even rate.

Byrd
January 17th, 2007, 09:07 PM
And, there must be a certain mentality to these men.... sub human themselves really.

I know there is great honour in being a soldier and fighting for your country, yada, yada, yada, but really, you must have a certain mentality to even be able to think of killing someone/something else whether in war or not! I really don't agree with any war, I hate war, hate killing, hate harm, etc.

I think we need to be careful with this thread before we start a war amongst ourselves. :o

normag
January 17th, 2007, 09:15 PM
I cant watch stuff like that it makes me sick to my stomach, but I would love to get my hands on those on those sick sobs.

technodoll
January 17th, 2007, 09:16 PM
I think we need to be careful with this thread before we start a war amongst ourselves.

nah i think we're pretty much all on the same page... we love animals and we love peace, kindness, compassion :o

Byrd
January 17th, 2007, 09:19 PM
As long as we understand that and don't take things everyone says the wrong way.

Prin
January 17th, 2007, 09:25 PM
Not all react that way though. Some resort to the sub-human idea to cope but I think most don't...

Stacer
January 17th, 2007, 09:29 PM
I can't open that video either, just the description is enough for me.
I think they're able to do stuff like that because of the training and the constant drilling into their heads about the enemy. They get worked into such a lather and then the testosterone takes over and it becomes a testosterony mob mentality. Guaranteed that the first guy to speak up and say that it is wrong is going to be ostracized or worse. Army guys are brutal even to each other.

Maya
January 17th, 2007, 09:47 PM
we have to work "double" for the ones who doesn't want to change the world. I try to do my best.
__________________
Time for a sexy party !

Thanks Frenchy, I think that's all we can really do is try our best.:goodvibes:

I think sometimes we also forget that people in general do pick on the weak. It just seems to be an instinct that many act on even without realizing they are doing it. The the thing I don't get is how people can keep doing awful things, how can they live with it?

LavenderRott
January 17th, 2007, 10:01 PM
:eek: killing and violence are NEVER justified!! killing innocent ppl is NOT ok!! and things like these are inexcusable, no matter who the enemy is. The innocent people have nothing to do with what their gov'ts choose to do :shrug: They don't choose to die randomly by bombers and mines and "accidental" peace fires. :shrug: :mad:

killing can only be justified if both parties agree that they want to die.

Before you jump to any conclusions about what is going on in Iraq - talk to a soldier who has been there. Until you stand at a funeral for a 20 year old soldier that was killed by an IED, after being lured to it by a group of young children, you don't know what you are talking about. Until you watch your best friend burn to death while you can do nothing about it - you just don't know.

I was born on a military base, was active duty military, was stationed in Germany the first time we went to Kuwait and my soon to be ex-husband served in Iraq last year. My brother -in - law is about to serve his second tour and another friend of mine is currently stationed in Bagdad. In my life I never met a person in uniform that would consider torturing a dog a good way to pass the time.

Yes - the images on the video posted are graphic and horrific. I am mortified to see this kind of behaviour by men in uniform. But stop and read your local paper. This just this bad and worse happen every day in the civilian world, far from war.

jiorji
January 17th, 2007, 10:25 PM
seriously....you have your opinion...I have mine. I choose to live my life peacefully and war and gun free. I personally think the world would be a better place if we didn't think guns before we though "intellectual compromise". I'm sorry for your loss, but i'm no supporter of any armed forces or civilians. You can choose to see wars as peacemakers, i see them as destruction and unnecessary violence.

I've lived through a revolution and i know what it\'s like to get shot at and be locked in your house in fear that the revolting mob may get you or choppers may "accidentally" shoot you on your way home. And i know what it's like to be at home with the lights off and hearing shots outside and thinking "gee I hope my dad isn't mistaken for a terrorist and gets shot or my mom doesn't get stabbed while she's out buying bread at the market".
My grandfather was a soldier in WWII and my grandmother's brother died in WWII. My grandparents' house got bombed, "accidentally" i'm sure, in WWII. My grandmother almost died there.

I wasn't making my statement personal, I just have a strong opinion about wars and peace and would choose peace, no matter what the intensions are.
Guns will not end a war.

Anyway, I didn't see this video, but surely, soldiers sent away should think twice about who tehy pick on. But you know what they say, "Big guns small *****" so i'm sure that's what this was all about :sad:

technodoll
January 17th, 2007, 10:55 PM
But you know what they say, "Big guns small *****" so i'm sure that's what this was all about

:laughing: oh man, i needed the belly-laugh :laughing: but seriously... i too hate guns, violence, etc on even the smallest of levels. mix in brutality to animals which is totally unnecessary and unwarranted and you get my blood to boil... :yell: :sad: that poor dog, i just want to scoop him up and bring him home to ease his suffering.

Maya
January 17th, 2007, 11:13 PM
Guns will not end a war.You can't reason with the unreasonable.:sad:

The only way to "justify" killing is if it is a last resort for self defense or people have decided they are willing participants. All the willing participants that go to war and kill civilians are killing in cold blood no matter how they justify it. Why won't they admit it? It's too difficult, if they had to face the fact that they hurt so many people and caused so much pain it would be unbearable. You'd have to be pretty brave to face that kind of pain.

:rip: Poor doggy (I hope he's out of his pain by now)

Prin
January 17th, 2007, 11:15 PM
Who says they are willing? :shrug:

Maya
January 17th, 2007, 11:43 PM
There isn't a draft is there?:confused:

Prin
January 17th, 2007, 11:54 PM
Maybe not over here...:shrug:

jiorji
January 18th, 2007, 12:10 AM
well i know you CHOOSE to join the army. I just hope there's few to none who join to kill or to play with guns :rolleyes: or kick innocent dogs :mad:

but here if you join you don't necessarly get sent off to battle. You can just be at the lowest rank and only get shipped in case of an actual war if we totally run out of soldiers. BUt if you're at a higher rank, and they decide to ship you off, then you have no say in it i don't think.

My friend's friend is in the army but they barely do anything other than train. But i don't think there's any hardcore training other than running around a field.

erykah1310
January 18th, 2007, 12:23 AM
seriously....you have your opinion...I have mine. I choose to live my life peacefully and war and gun free. I personally think the world would be a better place if we didn't think guns before we though "intellectual compromise". I'm sorry for your loss, but i'm no supporter of any armed forces or civilians. You can choose to see wars as peacemakers, i see them as destruction and unnecessary violence.



I agree 100%:thumbs up

Maya
January 18th, 2007, 12:45 AM
I guess some people also go to make a living and get education hoping they won't have to do anything too horrible. At least sometimes they've helped out during natural disaster's, here anyway. I get the feeling that's not the reason most people join though.

MyBirdIsEvil
January 18th, 2007, 02:34 AM
This his nothing to do with war or anything else. It has nothing to do with whether these people or soldiers, American, etc.

It has to do with the fact that they're sick people who get off on doing sick things.

I know it's hard not to get angry at other things when hearing that American soldiers have done something like this, BUT...

you guys have all read articles about animals being tortured. Do most cases have anything whatsoever to do with some war or anything even remotely related? There are people of all nationalities and walks of life that do these types of things.
I don't agree with the war either, but I've known many people over the years who are or have been in the millitary. Most of them would be sickened that ANYONE would hurt an innocent animal.

Unfortunately when some people are in another country, especially one that isn't being policed much at the moment, some people think they can become uncivilized and cruel, or do whatever sick thing they can get away with.
There are people that even choose to go on vacation in other countries so they can do certain things that wouldn't be acceptable here, or so they won't get caught, so it's nothing new.
You just don't often hear about that kind of stuff unless someone in the media can sensationalize it, such as in a videotape that is related to a war that the majority of people don't agree with it, and a country that many people are angry at.
What's sad is that the media spends more time trying to sensationalize aspects of a story that have NOTHING to do with the actual problem, which is animal cruelty, rather than concentrating on the fact that these things happen in general.

Golden Girls
January 18th, 2007, 06:38 AM
:sorry: but I disagree, I think it's more the opposite.

Most of the awful stuff that goes on in this world is because it is difficult for people to actually think about or imagine it but you need to if you are going to do anything to change it. If someone doesn't know about something awful going on or doesn't want to, how will they be able to stop it? We need to also focus on making things good for other's that are not able to do it themselves, which also means we have to focus on some not so nice stuff. The pet over population is a good example. I'm not dwelling on the "dramatic" or "sensational", I just feel we have a responsibility to make the world a good place for everyone. I won't open the video because i'm already traumatized from seeing horrible things and I wouldn't expect anyone else to, the description is enough. I just hope that some sort of justice comes out of it.I agree 100% with you Maya you can't help change something you don't acknowledge. You don't need to torture yourself by looking at that video, enough is said to know what happened. I hope everyone who took the time to post their feelings also took a minute to email the WhiteHouse < -- thank you Shaykieja.

I would like to add my comment here. This has nothing to do with war and it saddens me to think that people still don't see that animal abuse is about the weak overpowering the innocent - just like rape :sad: Let's leave war out of it, shall we?

Inisfad
January 18th, 2007, 08:49 AM
I didn't open it, but just the thought of it makes me ill. I've read what's written here about the mentality of soldiers, etc., and it's true that in basic training a soldier is kind of dehumanized so that he learns not to use his own brain but follow orders without question, etc. However, in real life, you don't have to be a soldier to do this kind of stuff to an animal. I have found animals that have had gasoline poured on them, once swam out into a lake in winter to get a cat that someone had put in a bucket to drown, and heard of things that are even worse. Sorry to say, I think that statistically, most of the people who do these things are male. But in any event, people, youngsters, etc., do this kind of disgusting stuff to helpless animals all the time, and don't need to be in the army or Iraq to do it. There is no excuse though, no matter what or where, and it's a f**** outrage. I couldn't open the video as I would be plagued with seeing it every time I close my eyes. Whatever happened to doing unto others...and others being all living things.

technodoll
January 18th, 2007, 08:54 AM
What's sad is that the media spends more time trying to sensationalize aspects of a story that have NOTHING to do with the actual problem, which is animal cruelty, rather than concentrating on the fact that these things happen in general.

but it WASN'T the media who caught and published this "story"... it was the soldiers themselves, boasting on a tape THEY filmed, and probably put up on the net for fun n'games, IMO that is NOT what soldiers should represent, it's a shame and disgrace, these barbaric monsters should be in jail and the key thrown away. yeah they did it to humans too, remember Abu Ghraib?... :mad: and that is what boggles my mind. in this case it's NOT just about animal abuse, it's about these soldiers, the supposed "peace keepers of the nation". total *sses.

Hunter's_owner
January 18th, 2007, 08:57 AM
and that is what boggles my mind. in this case it's NOT just about animal abuse, it's about these soldiers, the supposed "peace keepers of the nation". total *sses.

That's what I find so terrible about it all too. Yes the animal abuse is horrible, really sad:sad, but these soldiers are representing their country, and this is how they feel best to do it:frustrated:

Stacer
January 18th, 2007, 03:32 PM
Being soldiers is their job. If I tortured a dog while I was at my job and it was caught on video by other co workers who were participating as well, I would be fired. They need to have pride in their job and pride in their country, especially if they're going to post that crap on the internet. American soldiers have already got a bad image, they're not helping themselves by behaving like that.

Gazoo
January 18th, 2007, 04:52 PM
Being soldiers is their job. If I tortured a dog while I was at my job and it was caught on video by other co workers who were participating as well, I would be fired. They need to have pride in their job and pride in their country, especially if they're going to post that crap on the internet. American soldiers have already got a bad image, they're not helping themselves by behaving like that.

Playing devils advocate though---how many jobs consist of killing??

Stacer
January 18th, 2007, 04:58 PM
mine does! Killing insects. :D

But seriously, killing innocents is not their job, human or animal, their job is to engage the enemy.

And why do they have time to torment dogs anyway? Shouldn't they be out patrolling, or training or standing in neat lines while a drill sargeant spits in their face as he's yelling?

Gazoo
January 18th, 2007, 05:04 PM
good point--however innocents are always killed in war.

I'm not defending the horrendous actions of the soldiers---just trying to understand their mentality.

Golden Girls
January 18th, 2007, 05:37 PM
I'm not defending the horrendous actions of the soldiers---just trying to understand their mentality.You'd have to be mental to be able to. Let's hope the people demanded an investigation of this horrible act of cruelty resulting not only their arrest but courts-martial immediately

Maya
January 18th, 2007, 07:53 PM
I think that many of the soldiers are also victims in this. It's getting right up there with child abuse to send young impressionable people off to war. 19-20yrs of age is not instantely adult imo. These young people often trust and listen to all the hype and glorification of war by their parents and cultural msgs, it's basically brainwashing. Who knows what kind of influences these men must have had in their lives to not be able to find any empathy for the suffering of a crippled animal. (they are still responsible of course) I wonder how you could heal someone sick enough to do those kinds of things?

What's sad is that the media spends more time trying to sensationalize aspects of a story that have NOTHING to do with the actual problem, which is animal cruelty, rather than concentrating on the fact that these things happen in general.
I agree that things often get sensationalized even though this wasn't the media. I don't like how the news often covers cases of abuse only to point out how horrifying something was. Then people are like O my how terrible etc...and look at that no one had a clue it was going on. They almost never say stuff like ya tons of kids animals get abused everyday it's a common problem, lets as a citizens look into trying to stop some of it. E.g. Like next time you notice bruising or extreme shyness of your childs friend um maybe do a little investigation. Or if the dog next door is barking outside non-stop for five years without shelter try to do something about it. Same deal with war. Abuse is abuse and people ought to see that even if "the media" or people covering the stories only portray the shock of it.

CyberKitten
January 18th, 2007, 08:27 PM
I have to admit I could not bring myself to even turn it on. The thought of it from the description was enuf for me!! Gawd!!! makes me sooo ill when I hear of stuff like that. I have seen some really bad stuff (mostly with Drs without Borders in places where war is ongoing or reconstruction is or in refugee "camps" (really they are little more than disease infested prisons) or even in countries that are supposedly doing so much better so they deserve our help. (and I guess here I esp think of countries that loathe women in any position in public but really there are some where women have so called better status and they are still not fun places to be. For ex, the health Minister in South Africa was a woman but she was the most difficult one in the cabinet - she kept telling all these incredibly stupid, just plain stupid things to her people about AIDs, impeding our and others' work, making the situation worse, esp for women. Finally we took the govt to court and won but that took time and for awhile I used to calculate daily the number of ppl (men, women and children were dying and/or being infected which at the time was a death sentence - still is in much of that continent) - and how many orphans were being created just because of literally stupidity from one woman.

I still respect Nelson Mandela but I expected better of the AFC who were supposed to be for freedom and wanted better living conditions for all people in that country. So that opened my eyes - I mean, I don't think that just because a party that claims it will help oppressed ppl - and there was cause to believe there was oppression in SA - those promises do not necly occur. But SA was such a change and the Truth and Reconciliation Council (forget the exact title) was really a great peaceful way of settling things but this one woman prob managed all on her own without even using any weapons to kill more ppl than some of the worst dictators and that was sooooooooooo frustrating - and she considered herself a feminist!

Anyway - sorry to digress. If they do this to dogs, what to they do to people? I wonder how the Iraqi ppl - esp the children - are being treated? I know there are feel good stories about children being brought to western nations for help but those are a very small lucky elite. Most (the ones not killed by bombing) are worse off than they were before in many cases, sad as that is to admit and even say. Heartbreaking!! And they wonder what causes terrorism. Gawd!!!

I just hate war so don't mind my rant - these things irk me so much and dredge up old bad memories.

Prin
January 18th, 2007, 08:31 PM
Playing devils advocate though---how many jobs consist of killing??

Quite a few... One of the reasons I can't get a job in my field is because I refuse to kill animals. But you don't see animal researchers running off beating people in their spare time... I'm sure a few do, but I'm not sure it's really work related..

Crimson
January 18th, 2007, 08:43 PM
This thread has run its course and will now be closed.