January 14th, 2007, 03:39 PM
I've been reading the posts on this site in prep for my quarterly truck load dog food buy today, but I haven't seen any comments on Evanger's or Missing Link. Considering we are all looking for the 'best' dog food for the price I thought I'd ask your advice. I four big furry kids, and feed Canidae dry with a variety of wet (Natural Balance and Canidae). My last visit to the feed store they talked me into trying Evanger's. I never heard of it, and it had an ol' time funky label making me think it was some cheap garbage. To my surprise it's almost pure human grade meat - no fillers - and the price is a lot lower than the designer foods. A diamond in the rough? So I thought I'd ask you opinion.
I'd also like to recommend Missing Link to everyone! I had a small dog (starts with an S, but the site blocked it as profanity-chuckle) who's back quarters became paralyzed in an accident. I did the massage and water therapy for her - and no change. I heard of Missing Link and thought I'd give it a try. After six weeks her eyes brightened, she started getting strength in her legs - and in another 4 weeks was walking. I can't swear Missing Link made all the difference, but since then put all my dogs are on it. As a result their coats are beautiful, I've never needed teeth cleanings (to my Vets astonishment), and I have no hip or back problems. The stuff is pricey, but the benefits I've had with it makes it well worth the price.
January 14th, 2007, 05:22 PM
I had a small dog (starts with an S, but the site blocked it as profanity-chuckle)
Actually, if you spell it correctly (Shih Tzu) it's not profanity ;)
As for the Evangers...which formula are you planning on feeding?
January 14th, 2007, 05:36 PM
here's the ingredient list to both formulas :
CHICKEN WITH BROWN RICE
Chicken, Ground Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Potato Product, Pearled Barley, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E), Carrot, Celery, Beet, Parsley, Lettuce, Water Crest, Spinach, Oat Meal, Catfish Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Natural Chicken Flavor, Flax Seed Meal, Egg Product, Monosodium Phosphate, D/L Methionine, Lecithin, Fish Oil, L-Lysine, Salt, Kelp Meal, Potassium Chloride, Natural Yucca Schidigera Extract, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Dimethylpyridinol Bisulfate(Source of Vitamin K Activity), Citric Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate.
PHEASANT WITH BROWN RICE
Fresh Pheasant, Duck Meal, Brown Rice, Salmon Meal, Pearled Barley, Oatmeal, Potato, Canola Oil, Turkey Liver, Dried Tomato Pomace, Millet, Sweet Potato, Dried Whole Egg, Flaxseed, Lecithin, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Folic Acid, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Bifidobacterium Longum, Enterococous Faecium, Vitamin A, D3, E, B12 Supplements, Choline Chloride, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfate(Source of Vitamin K Activity), Biotin, Zinc Sulfate, Ferroius Sulfate, Manganous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Calcium Iodate, Sorbic Acid, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Maganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite.
I like the pheasant formula better because it has more meat. In both formulas the first ingredient is inclusive of water, so once the water content removed, that ingredient will be further down the list. So you have to consider that the second ingredient is really the first ingredient. So the CHICKEN formula has rice as it's first ingredient whereas the pheasant formula has duck as it's first ingredient.
Then again, both formulas have menadione bisulfate, which you want to stay away from, so....:shrug: ... I think Canidae is a better food
January 14th, 2007, 05:46 PM
I agree. The second one is ok, but it has menadione (synthetic vitamin K banned for human consumption). The first one, with a grain as #1 isn't so great.. But both have "fillers" (the oatmeal and barley, especially).
January 14th, 2007, 09:09 PM
Sorry, but I didn't see any replies prior to my leaving for the Feed Store. I just got back, and am happy to report a 50%+ savings on my feed bill. For clarity, my truck load buys usually consist of 9-40lbs bags of Canidae, 12 cases of cans, and (of course) a 5lbs bag of Missing Link.
I'm not sure where the poster obtained the ingredients on Evanger's, but here is what the label states on the versions I bought today.
Beef with Chicken - Beef, whole chicken, water sufficent for processing
Beef, Chicken & Liver - Beef, whole dressed chicken, liver, water sufficient for processing
Beef & Bacon - Beef, bacon, water sufficient for processing
100% Beef - Beef, water sufficient for processing.
That's it - no chemical brew added.
The label also states - This quality product is a highly nutritious food intended for intermittent or supplemental feeding only. It makes an excellent mixer with you favorite dry food.
Also, the label clearly states No presevatives and no salt are added.
The label note makes sense since no additional additives are mixed in (e.g. vitamins). I figure since I mix wet into the dry only at night the additional vitamins are obtained via the dry food (Canidae) and the rest of the 'good stuff' via Missing Link.
Oh, as for the cost savings - where I live Natural Balance and Canidae can food costs between $1.20-$2.05 a can - Evanger's cost $.89-.99 a can.
Here are the links to Evanger's and Missing Link:
Let me know what you think 'cause I'm still dancing at the major savings I received today. At this rate I could rescue two more dogs - only kidding 4 big guys is enough :angel:
For cat lovers :cat: , if you check out the Evanger's site you'll find a a can food that really does have caviar added to it :eek:
January 14th, 2007, 09:16 PM
My fault - I was talking about their canned food and not the dry food - sorry. I'm not planning on switching from Canidae at this point in time. The price and bag size are right for me.
Has anyone figured out why when you find a good dry dog food that comes in a large bag (40lbs) when it gets popular the manufacturer instantly drops the bag to 32-35lbs and keeps the price the same (less quantity same price)? I use to feed Wellness and when they pulled the switch I moved to Canidae. Same thing happened on the dry food I was feeding prior to Wellness. Oh well - I guess that's life (sigh).
By the way - thank you Meb999 for correcting my breed spelling! I never could remember how to spell that bloody breed (smile).
January 16th, 2007, 01:41 AM
I thought I would email Evanger's and ask them if they planned to remove Menadione Bisulfate from their dry dog food. Here's their response (oh, I also asked them about producing larger bags of their dry food - hence the '40#'. I also clipped the comments concerning Menadione Bisulfate from this discussion thread and put them in the email - no posters were ID'd in the email):
My name is Joel Sher. I am Vice President of Evanger's. I have received your email of January 14, 2007.
The people in the chat room who made the statements regarding our dry food are incorrect. When fresh meat is used in dry dog food, the rate of inclusion is at a greatly increased rate. Therefore, the meat ingredient will remain as the #1 ingredient. This type of formula, (fresh meat) is preferred because we do not have to use preservatives as with meat meals.
At the present time, we do not have any plans to make a 40# retail package. However, we do offer a plain white 50# breeder's bag of our Chicken & Brown Rice Dry Dog Food. There are minimum quantities that must be ordered.
Menadione Bisulfate is indeed controversial. I have done some research in this area. At the present time, there is no conclusive proof that this substance is harmful. Vitamin K is essential for blood clotting. People as well as animals MUST derive it from some other source if it is removed from the formula. It would probably have to be added as a supplement.
I hope that this response adequately addresses your inquiries. We appreciate your concerns.
They sent me another follow up that stated:
In my previous reply, I forgot to mention that we also have a 40# breeder's bag of our Pheasant & Brown Rice Dry Dog Food. As with the 50# bag of our Chicken & Brown Rice Dry Dog Food, minimum order quantities apply.
I added a pic of one of my rescues to this post. Meet Jones - a lab-dane mix - 4 yrs - 120 lbs....a big boy who thinks he is a toy poodle (chuckle).
Dang - pic didn't upload so I edited the msg to insert it. Still working on figuring out how this site works (sigh and sorry)
January 16th, 2007, 06:32 AM
Sounds like hes just defending his food. And doing a poor job of it. Pretty much any quality company has removed Menadione Bisulfate from their food.
I also disagree with the meat vs meal thing. Either way, I'd stick with the canidae. Its a far better product.
January 16th, 2007, 12:18 PM
Although in this particular instance it may be possible that "meat" may be still the first ingredient, this does not discount the fact that it takes about 5lb meat to make 1lb meal, so meal will always give you more "meat" in the form of protein.
As an example the crude protein of chicken meal is around 66%, the crude protein of chicken is 16% (water on), so even if the recipe utilized LESS "meal", you would still be getting more meat.
I guess the REAL answer to THAT question would be, what is the precentage of protein that is derived from meat source, as opposed to plant sources.
January 17th, 2007, 12:09 AM
The explanation sucks, and the reply is pretty defensive.
A meat that isn't a meal is a lot of water weight. The second ingredient the grain there is more of than the meat.
I wouldn't use the dry food. The wet food looks fine though. Never heard of it before.
January 17th, 2007, 12:34 AM
Vitamin K is essential for blood clotting. People as well as animals MUST derive it from some other source if it is removed from the formula. It would probably have to be added as a supplement.Yes, vitamin K is necessary, but why feed controversial, banned for human consumption, synthetic vitamin K3 when undisputed, healthy, safe, natural vitamin K1 sources are cheap and readily available?
January 17th, 2007, 01:10 AM
First thanks Scott B! So Avatars are where you add the pics?!
OK I'm still not sure whether to feed or not to feed Vitamin K. I did some searching and some folks say K is easily eliminated from the dogs system and only the dog food project has anything posted stating it is a big no-no to feed Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfate (Vitamin K).
Yep, (per the web) state sources for K are easy to naturally add to the diet, but then you have brands like Iams (yuk), Natural Balance and Chicken Soup all adding it to their dry food.
The only really con discription I could find was on the dog food project:
Then you have specialty sites like show, performance and holistic sites that all use Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfate in the dry food they recommed feeding (along with some vet sites).
The dog food project site is enough to put a scare in you, but even they admit it's everywhere (toys, etc.) and no dedicated research has been completed.
I'm just really stumped whether the Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfate controversy is a lot of smoke or real.
I'm just still plain confused.
January 17th, 2007, 01:12 AM
Didja read my post? lol
Menadione is vitamin K3. It's man-made and banned for human consumption.
Vitamin K1 is natural and is in alfalfa, kelp and a whole bunch of cheap ingredients.
January 17th, 2007, 06:16 AM
Look at the list of companies who have removed it from the diet. That alone should tell you something.
Once again, canidae is a far better product then this.
January 17th, 2007, 07:21 PM
I agree with Prin about the menadione sodium bisulfite complex. There is no reason to use a synthetic ingredient that is controversial ( vitamin K3) when Vitamin K1 can be used instead.
Glad you are staying with the Canidae kibble. It is a far better product than the Evangers dry. BTW, Jones is a gorgeous big boy. :cloud9:
January 17th, 2007, 09:18 PM
I thought the reason they used menadione was because it doesn't break down while in the bag like the K1. Which is still a horrible reason for using it.
January 20th, 2007, 03:31 AM
I'm still researching their dry dog food, but I think I really did find a 'diamond in the rough' for their canned food!
Check out http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/index.php for the canned food analysis. Evanger's took 6-stars on their canned food! I also checked out some other discussion sites, and the 'raw' feeders are using Evanger's when they are in a pinch. (Plus I'm still chuckling about the caviar in their cat food :cat: )
For you folks in Canada, Evangers is located in Illinois, so they probably sell in Canada also. Heck - they are just across the Lake from you!
As for the 'Menadione Bisulfate' discussion, I took a second look on the cans of Natural Balance I'm in the process of using up - and it's added to that food also. So it looks like I've been feeding my 'kids' it for a while. Plus I noticed in their venison version (Natual Balance) the label just states they use a 'vitamin k supplement' and they don't acknowledge that it's Menadione Bisulfate.
I also did a little more research, and vitamin K3 (Menadione Bisulfate) does not eliminate easily from the system and is absorbed in the tissues. One study in infants (US) resulted in medical problems and death (in some instances) - therefore banned for use in infants. Another study I read stated that it was used in cancer patients during treatment (to enhance blood clotting, etc) and created problems - the study then changed to more natural sources of vitamin K (K1 and K2) as a replacement with improved results. Finally I found a report from the UK concerning the banning of K3 for human consumption late-2005 thru early-2006. Final outcome was UK did not ban K3 because it was currently not commonly used as a human suppliment. In short, if it was then the UK would have banned it, but since it wasn't it didn't present an immediate problem and final banning would be postponed for future study.
Bottomline, Menadione Bisulfate does appear to present a problem. So buyer beware! I couldn't find any info on the quantities (dosages) they used for the studies, but it does appear that K3 is absorbed by the body, is not easliy eliminated, and could cause problems. So even though no dedicate studies of Menadione Bisulfate have been completed there does appear to be several potential red flags connected to its prolonged use by humans (and therefore our best friends).
But - I'm still dancing over the savings I received switching from Natural Balance and Canidae to Evanger's canned food last weekend!!!!
January 20th, 2007, 01:14 PM
Menadione causes free radicals, which can lead to tumors. It shouldn't be too bad if you up the anti-oxidants (like vitamin E) in your pet's diet.
Natural Balance, Wellness, among many others had menadione but recently removed it after pressure from consumers. Sometimes, even if it has menadione on the label, the actual food doesn't have it (they have 6 months to change the packaging after a formula change). Even if it does though, a vitamin E supplement should help. :)