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my dog's behavior "isn't right"????

tajelilant
January 10th, 2007, 08:48 PM
I know the title of this thread may lead readers to assume that I need to run to a training class, but hear me out, I beg!!! ;)

Shortly after my husband and I decided we have enough children, we decided we'd love to have a family dog (I know, LOL)... my oldest son went on the animal planet website and filled out a quiz to "match" us to the best-suited dog for our family, home, lifestyle, etc... he came up with American Eskimo. We read up on the breed, and all agreed that beautiful dog is for us! I knew I wanted a bigger dog, but settled on a standard-sized Eskie. We researched breeders and found a purebred Eskie breeder a few hours away from our home. Called, and she had one female available. Perfect. Decided her name would be Talin, spent weeks taking trips to pet stores, preparing, etc... I felt like I was having another baby!!!

My husband has had dogs all his life and raised some from being puppies, as well as bred one litter of rottweillers years before we met, so he had a great deal of dog-experience (as well as training) although I was a newbie in comparison, since I had a couple dogs growing up but never really raised one from a pup.

We drove to the far-out-country-home of the people raising so very many Eskies - all sizes, as well as a couple other breeds of dogs. Really nice people... who just LOVE their dogs and never had children so their countless dogs and puppies are their "babies" (although I have to admit I found it strange that they didn't ask me many questions when agreeing to sell to me, I even Paypal'd the $ on-line)!

We brought our beautiful "Talin" home and when she wasn't sleeping, she was shaking nervously. From day one, she did her no.1 and no.2 business in her crate. We have a fenced-in backyard that we would take her out to play in several times a day, we took her for walks, but it took months to potty-train her (so-to-speak) and leash training never totally came up-to-par.

We spoke with a trainer we knew at the time, who gave us advice that my husband was already quite familiar with, and we remained consistent and yet my baby Eskie remained just as hyper and uncooperative on the leash as she wanted to be on any given day. She was always very nervous, crying, hiding, and shaking at ANY given unusual situation - or sometimes we didn't even know what was scaring her. She was terrified of cars, but we chalked that up to the fact that she was born in a barn (well, they claim born in the house and then moved to the barn, but we were not allowed in the barn, only to drive by).

We quickly discovered that we would have a difficult time taking her on any sort of outing - to the pet store, to a park, even to the vet... because she would throw up before we reached the corner of our own street! My husband said over and over again that she "just isn't right". She always has had (and still has) a weak (or nerve-triggered) bladder... any strong emotion causes her to pee wherever she is. As she gets older, many of her issues are getting worse, or at the very least staying the same. She doesn't like any other dog... at all... even broke OFF her leash (I admit I probably had it too loose) one day walking her and ran across the street to a poor tiny (I mean 8-wk-old) labrador puppy and NIPPED it!!! She barked and CHARGED the whole way across the street regardless of my commands for her to "come" back and "no"! She got in trouble for tearing something up in the house, my husband fussed at her and she ran, when he grabbed her, she bit him... drew blood and all!!! She has now bit THREE of our children's friends (or do I say "nipped" because she didn't break skin to the point of bleeding?) - completely unprovoked. She has nipped my youngest son (4-y/o) simply for trying to pet her!!!

She doesn't walk around simply miserable all the time, I take her for agonizing walks (agonizing because she pulls so hard upon any stimuli) 2-3 times daily, we let her in the backyard to play and run any time she wants, we now have to put her in the crate, basement, or backyard any time someone comes over (child OR adult) because she will bite anyone who sticks their hand out, and yet she can be so gentle and loving to our own family 90% of the time (the other 10% is when she's deciding she doesn't want to be petted by our youngest).

Sniffing people to see that they're "okay" and telling her they're "okay" hasn't worked. Consistent discipline hasn't worked, we can't take her anywhere between her throwing up and unpredictable behavior toward other pets and animals... and might I add that she is just as gentle as can be toward our housecat and bird! Even the bird!!! Although we rarely let them loose in the same room at the same time, of course...

She is so much work and so unpredictable that my husband and I are no longer enjoying her. Our children don't understand and only know that she is good to them and so it would be mean to get rid of her, they think.

We have to put her in a kennel if we visit relatives for the night or over the weekend, because we can't take her with us, and she goes to a kennel for two weeks over the Summer because she can't take the road trip with us... and then we come back and her temperament is HORRIBLE - it's like starting all over every Summer with her behavior from nearly every angle!

We do want a family dog, one that can be "part of the family", but we don't want to worry about this liability, and she only seems to be getting worse, in spite of training and consistent discipline. It's frustrating to hear that "there are no bad dogs, just bad owners" because we have tried SO hard to help her, but with a family of 8, friends coming over (children), and an active lifestyle as we have, she is wearing us out and we are considering giving her up perhaps to a rescue group (nobody in my family wants her) and then wait a while, clean the house from all her "scents", and start over with a more calm, family-type dog maybe from the SPCA where they have already been temperament-tested.

I was wondering what the opinion of this group would be in this case, and are we being fair? I really tried to stick the commitment out, but at this rate even I am afraid of her - not continuously, but I am always "on guard" and never trusting her to not bite because she's done it so many times. The biting has become the straw that "broke the camel's back" for me, and the more we discipline the more determined she seems to be to do it again... unprovoked... to anyone, if the mood fits (even visitors she knows). I hope I'm clear on all of this, though I know it's long and probably a bit confusing and I don't mean to make her sound like some monster dog that needs to be "put down" or anything... but she is very difficult, and... I guess I am ready to surrender to my husband's constant saying that "she just isn't right"!!!! Mill material, perhaps??? Thanks for reading!

Prin
January 10th, 2007, 08:51 PM
Excuse me while I try to make my way through that one, large, very large paragraph. :D

This could take a while...
http://bestsmileys.com/freak/1.gif

coppperbelle
January 10th, 2007, 09:24 PM
First let me say that I completely understand as I have been where you are now. I did not purchase a puppy but adopted an older one that had been found abandoned. From day one she had issues but we worked through them slowly. The first six months were hell but eventually things started to improve. Then about a year after we adopted her she bit my nephews girlfriend for no apparent reason. I made excuses for the bite, she didn't know the girl, she was protecting our truck etc.. etc.. etc...
A few months later she bit me. She had just gotten over having "cold tail" and I thought maybe I had accidentally touched her tail, it hurt and she bit me. The first bite did not break the skin but the time she bit me it did. I cannot tell you how upset I was.
Every time someone came over she would bark at them and jump at their face. She never actually bit them but the threat was there.
I have owned dogs all my life and goldens for the last 27 years so I was not an inexperienced dog owner.
One day at a dog park a young girl came in and I could see that she liked Chloe. The girl was about 12 years old and did not approach Chloe but approached me instead. At one point when Chloe came close she stuck out her hand to pet her and Chloe jumped at her face and nipped her arm. Thankfully the skin was not broken but it frightened all of us. All I could think of was "goldens don't behave this way" or at least they shouldn't behave this way.
Over that winter things escalated and it got really bad. She began snarling at me when I tried to cut her nails or groom her. She also snarled at my daughter and son. Taking walks were a nightmare. She would lunge at other dogs and one day lunged and barked at a lady we talked to on a regular basis. I sought help from other dog people and nobody knew what was causing the problem. I began to think that something wasn't right in her head. I started walking her at night when no one was around. One day a neighborhood child who Chloe knew stopped to talk to us and Chloe bit his hand, again completely unprovoked. That was it for me and I was ready to put her down. I could no longer enjoy or trust my dog.
I could not justify putting down a healthy dog and kept asking myself what gave me the right to make such a decision. Was I playing God? Someone sent me an article about aggression and hypothyroidism. A lightbulb went off and I had her thyroid tested. Sure enough she was hypothyroid and was prescribed medication. After six weeks I began to see a difference. We also started taking obedience classes again. I don't know if it was the medication or a combination of the two but she is now back to normal or as normal as Chloe could ever be. She is no longer snarling at me or anyone else and she is happy when someone comes to visit no longer barking at their face. She is a changed dog.

Most rescue groups won't take a dog with aggression issues so I don't think that will be a solution to your problem.
The first thing I would do is have her vet checked. Have your vet check her thyroid. It is a simple fairly inexpensive blood test. The medication to treat it is cheap.
If she thyroid is normal perhaps an obedience class. A good trainer can help you work through some of your problems.
As a last resort contact rescue groups for your breed of dog. They may be able to help you re-home her if that becomes necessary.
It doesn't sound like your breeder will help you out so I wouldn't even go that route.

Keep us posted

Prin
January 10th, 2007, 09:29 PM
Ok...

my oldest son went on the animal planet website and filled out a quiz to "match" us to the best-suited dog for our family, home, lifestyle, etc... he came up with American Eskimo. We read up on the breed, and all agreed that beautiful dog is for us! I knew I wanted a bigger dog, but settled on a standard-sized Eskie.Honestly, I guess you didn't research enough, because as you know now, the breeder you got her from is a puppymill.:o

She was always very nervous, crying, hiding, and shaking at ANY given unusual situation - or sometimes we didn't even know what was scaring her.
She always has had (and still has) a weak (or nerve-triggered) bladder... any strong emotion causes her to pee wherever she is.
So she's a submissive pee-er, and is fearful of the world. So when you discipline how do you do it? Are you scary? Are you somebody to be afraid of?


My husband said over and over again that she "just isn't right".IMO, how can he be putting in real effort if he thinks it's a lost cause?

We spoke with a trainer we knew at the time, who gave us advice that my husband was already quite familiar with, and we remained consistent and yet my baby Eskie remained just as hyper and uncooperative on the leash as she wanted to be on any given dayAnd so that trainer's advice didn't work, so did you go to a different trainer after that? Consistency in a technique the dog doesn't understand or that just doesn't work isn't going to make it work. If a dog isn't responding the way you want it to, you have to change your approach.

I take her for agonizing walks (agonizing because she pulls so hard upon any stimuli)Again, where's your trainer? Obviously what you are doing, again, is not working so it's time to try something new. Completely new.


Sniffing people to see that they're "okay" and telling her they're "okay" hasn't worked. Consistent discipline hasn't worked, we can't take her anywhere between her throwing up and unpredictable behavior toward other pets and animals...Constant discipline? What does that mean? If you're hitting her, how can you expect her to be friendly with people? You're the only people she knows.

Any dog, well-bred or not, who hasn't been trained properly, socialized properly and who has no real leaders can get aggressive quickly, which is what, IMO is happening here. And if you had researched the breed, you'd know (from what I hear of eskies here) they are stubborn and can be really dominant little divas.


then wait a while, clean the house from all her "scents", and start over with a more calm, family-type dog maybe from the SPCA where they have already been temperament-tested.Sorry, but I don't think that'll work. Like I said above. even the best dog can "turn bad" with an owner who doesn't put the effort into training it. Ok, so you put time in, but from your post, it doesn't look like you exercised all your options.

It sounds like your hubby has one way of raising dogs and if the dog doesn't adhere to it or "get it" then the dog is out. Instead your hubby and you should both be saying, "Ok this isn't working. Let's find somebody who can help us change so it DOES work. And if that doesn't work, we'll find somebody else who can help us." Coming here was a good first step, but IMO, now you need a new trainer.

Sorry if it was a bit harsh, but if you fill in the blanks, I'll gladly correct myself. ;)

mummummum
January 10th, 2007, 10:35 PM
From your post I can tell that you love Talin ~ you just don't like her very much right now. And that is something we all go through.

It sounds like you have a number of behavuioral issue which are all solvable but it also looks like you've been relying on too few resources. What about looking at a different trainer and a behaviourist ?

Prin
January 10th, 2007, 10:40 PM
It sounds like you have a number of behavuioral issue which are all solvable but it also looks like you've been relying on too few resources. What about looking at a different trainer and a behaviourist ?lol Umm.. very eloquent. (i.e. way to say what I said in far less words and with way more tact.:D) :thumbs up

erykah1310
January 10th, 2007, 10:47 PM
I guess I am ready to surrender to my husband's constant saying that "she just isn't right"!!!! Mill material, perhaps??? Thanks for reading!

What does "mill material" mean???

tajelilant
January 10th, 2007, 11:25 PM
Wow... okay... first, thank you SO much for the above replies and for reading that extensively long post, LOL! ;)

Okay, mum... you hit it on the nose by saying that we love her but don't LIKE her right now, precisely where we're at.

Copper, thank you SO MUCH for relating so well and also for your finding that hypothyroidism is the cause of the seeming instability... I will look into that as it never crossed my mind and HOW RELIEVED we would be to learn that simple medication could make re-training easier!

Erykah, I meant I can now see (in hindsight) that the wonderful breeders who so dearly loved their many many many puppies like children MIGHT likely have actually been running a mill... although their website clearly states that "we are NOT a puppy mill". Uhhh, like they'd tell us if they were???

Prin, you are absolutely correct that we did not research enough on the signs that a breeder may be running a mill. I (like all people, IMHO), live and learn. To fill in the blanks, we discipline her for certain things certain ways (crate, firm commands, rewards for good behaviors and appropriate reactions, etc...). However, I was thrown aback to read "if you are hitting her..." because my automatic assumption (yeah, I know what assuming does, but...) is that if people love their animals enough to take the time join a forum and ask for advice on how to handle a troublesome situation with their dog, we are not likely the type of people who would be HITTING our pets as a form of discipline. Some may beg to differ with technique or lack-of, but we have NEVER hit Talin... or any animal for that matter. Short of a straight-out attack, I can't imagine the sense in that. My husband didn't feel that Talin was a lost cause... we have had her for 3-1/2 years! We have worked with her over and over again. He is not here all day every day as I usually am to work with her one-on-one ALL the time, but he works w/her as he can, and has guided me along the way. When he says she just "isn't right", he is expressing concern that their may be some mental instability behind her actions. We have put a LOT of time, effort, and energy into training our family dog. Perhaps we have not exhausted all our options... which is why I am here, and which is why I visited the local SPCA last night and talked over the situation with the staff there. And from these replies, I am given ideas such as that above to have her thyroid checked... something that has not come up at all in my hours and hours of internet research. If giving her up were so simple and we were such a heartless family, I wouldn't be on this forum at 20 minutes after midnight excited to see replies so soon, and reading them through with a fine-tooth-comb. Yes, we are seriously contemplating getting rid of her because of the risks to everyone who comes her way. She is, by far, worse than she was a year ago, and last year when she lunged (charged) at the innocent puppy peeing across the street, that was far worse than all of the peeing, pooping, throwing up, stubborness, and various other imperfections we had dealt with in the year before THAT! But that doesn't mean that we think it's the end of the road... or I wouldn't be here now, and she wouldn't be laying by my feet as I type this. ;)

tajelilant
January 10th, 2007, 11:34 PM
Oh, and I'm not sure where the idea came from that getting rid of our dog was my husband's lack of tolerance for her not complying with his training. My husband only said that she "isn't right". I am the one who initiated the idea of not keeping her since she has started biting people WAY toooooo often. He agreed in full, but never once did either of us talk about getting rid of her simply because she is SO very difficult to train.

TeriM
January 10th, 2007, 11:43 PM
Welcome to the forum. Glad to hear that you are actively seeking solutions for your dog. We frequently get people here who pop in and expect miracle solutions and if they don't work then they move on and get another puppy :sad: (and sometimes pop up again later asking for more help with the new dog), so sorry if it seemed like negative responses.

I would recommend you seek a trainer for help. I also would enroll the dog in some obedience classes. Even if she already knows the commands it is very helpful to be in a group setting with other dogs and stimuli and working with an experienced professional. I would also recommend you get either a halti or a walking harness, I personally use this harness which I love: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=33867 which would help provide some control while walking.

I agree with Prin's statement that "Consistency in a technique the dog doesn't understand or that just doesn't work isn't going to make it work. If a dog isn't responding the way you want it to, you have to change your approach." Hopefully you will land on the right technique and make some progress.

I would also working to establish yourself as "pack leader" and recommend you have a look at the "nothing in life is free" technique http://www.pets.ca/articles/article-dog_nilf.htm

Prin
January 10th, 2007, 11:46 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were hitting her. I just wanted to make sure that if that was a possibility, you'd know it was creating more harm than good. :)

Oh, and I'm not sure where the idea came from that getting rid of our dog was my husband's lack of tolerance for her not complying with his training.Sorry, that was the feeling I got from the post. Your hubby just seems hard headed as you describe him, but if you say he's not like that, that's enough for me.:) Just don't assume all your issues will be solved in a new dog. :o

Problems left unattended to generally do get worse over time. :shrug: But it's not too late (usually), if you get the right trainer. Not all trainers out there are great, and even some of the better ones aren't great with all kinds of dogs.

I don't have kids, but from being around here, I know that it's a scary thing when your kids are at risk and you definitely have to do whatever is best for your family.:shrug:

Good luck! :)

Prin
January 10th, 2007, 11:47 PM
Welcome to the forum. Glad to hear that you are actively seeking solutions for your dog. We frequently get people here who pop in and expect miracle solutions and if they don't work then they move in and get another puppy :sad: (and sometimes pop up again later asking for more help with the new dog), so sorry if it seemed like negative responses.
Yes, we do get more than a few like that here. And I am sorry if I jumped the gun on you. I just wanted to cover all the possible bases.
:grouphug:

badger
January 11th, 2007, 12:10 AM
In your situation, I'm not sure if I wouldn't talk to a good vet - somebody knowledgeable - about medication. Since all of her behaviours seem to be essentially fear-based, maybe a little Prozac WITH retraining would work? I have no idea if it is the same as in humans - sometimes the outcome of medication is positive, sometimes quite neutral, sometimes negative - but it might give her, and you, a little respite.

OntarioGreys
January 11th, 2007, 12:38 AM
Start with a vet visit explain some of the behaviours and ask for some testing to be done , it is a good place to start by ruling out a medical problem , also have the vet check her knee many poorly breds have bad patella which could pbe causing pain
personally I think part is her personality/breed, partly the families expectation of her and also using the wrong training methods for her(this is explained farther down)

If the vet can't anything wrong ask him/her if he know a good behaviouralist, if not ask for the contact info for the closest veterinary college/university and contact them to direct you to someone who can do a behaviour assessment to find out if she is mentally stable or not, there are actually degree courses that can be taken in animal psychology, these animal behaviourist are often hired by people like yourself or by zoo's where they have animals that are behaviing irrationally to figure out if the problem is related to stress, a behavioural issue or if there re wires crossed, I have had to make use of one myself before to make the same sort of determination

Eskies are often submissive pee'ers, stubborn, sensitive, active,easily distracted because they are very curious about things and can make good watch dogs, my vet does refer to them as being a bit crazy as they are often hyped up emotionally, compared to shepherds, rottis , dobes they are going to seem very off the wall , I have one myself that I have had for 9 years, there were are strong similiarities between her and your dog, I had to do a lot of work to get the submissive peeing under control, she is also the first and only dog I have had that literally throws stomping up and down temper trantrums like the screaming kid in the grocery store that can't have want it wants :rolleyes: and my vet says she is one of the better ones he has as clients, it is not one of the breeds he would recommend to most people and over the 9 years I have had her he has not changed his mind, so their personalities can be unique compared to other dogs and that uniqueness is what some people love about them others find them totally overwhelming. Nikki I found does better with extra dogs around I have 2 greyhounds and a chinese crested puppy but at 9 she has not slowed down and is the ideal playmate to help wear out for the crested puppy, the greyhound help keep in line and from thinking she is the boss



Dogs like people need space sometimes to themselves where they know they are not going to be bothered, some need more than others,

A rule for when I had kids and dogs in the house, a certain room was off limits(others have a crate for their dog to retire to) to the kids to allow the dog(s) to a place to go to get away from the hub bub of children playing.

if the dog was standing and walking around it is in social mode , call the dog to you for petting, if a dog is laying down it is resting and does not want to be bothered so rule was Leave the Dog Be!, a child that did not follow the rules was disciplined, better to have isolation time than end up getting bit.

So provide her with a space she can call her own that she can freely come and go from be it a crate or a room , feed her treats and food there, put a soft bed there so she learns this is her spot, the children should be resticted from using that spot it should be her private safe spot, as though she has her own bedroom so she can sulk in, rest in, hide in when she simply does not want anyone bother her etc


Submissive peeing despite the comments Prin made has nothing to do with being mean to her and scaring her, she is an omega dog that lacks in confidence she does view you, others as very dominant so therefore is trying to show respect by peeing, what know need to do to stop or at least greatly decrease is make the gap between omega and alpha smaller that means changing your body language and doing osme training with her that will build her confidence level up

This article has some info on Nilif(nothng in Life is free) training
http://www.eskierescuers.org/info/display?PageID=1979

It also contains a link on submissive peeing and why dogs bite

It seems your husband is more familiar with the stronger dominant breeds the more diciplinary training(I am not talking about beatings either ;, I do understand it is about corection and reward) that can work on those breeds simply won't work with a breed like an eskie, with very sensitive breeds it has a negative effect instead, they need more in the way of positive reward with little emphasis on correction training, the focus has to be about wanting to do because they get a positive experience from doing the right thing and knowing it pleases you, without the worry if they do not do they will get corrected, find a trainer to help that uses clicker training or positive reinforcement training and take some classes, the classes are not so much about training the dog but about teach you how to train the dog. Don't expect miracles to happen right away, it would have been faster if you did not have to change training tactics so some will cause confusion so you might have to repeat a class, trying to work with into an advanced classes after, what she will learn is she has to focus on you and ignore distractions, what ever you practice at class has to be repeats several times a day at home so things sinks in and also so she learn is does not just apply at class.

If there is no way you feel you can keep her , try to get her into a eskie rescue , they know the breed, they know the quirks are better suited at finding a good home for her

Hearts bandits has several chapters that may be able to take her though you may have to wait for a foster home to open up
http://www.heartbandits.com/pages/chapters.html

Prin
January 11th, 2007, 12:40 AM
Great post OG.:)

mafiaprincess
January 11th, 2007, 02:15 AM
I have nothing really helpful to say to fix this..
I just wanted to tell you you aren't alone. My roomie bought a dog and went to throw her in the pound 4 months later. I was attached and took her home. She's likely a product of the local puppy mill (yes sadly there is one). I have questioned if she is not wired right.. We've had a few bites, after the fact I feel it was my fault though.. lots of submissive peeing, and what seemed to me like more problems than the majority of dog owners.

Nothing has ever seemed to be 'easy' training or just living day to day. For a first dog, she'll most likely be harder than anything I deal with in future, which is great cause we've made it, and things have gotten way better.. but not because the journey at times has been so frustrating I've been pulling out my hair, and literally crying over why it wasn't improving.

Our relationship is on stable ground with many classes, bonding time, and some growing up. There are still rough patches, but her gaining confidence has decreased the submissive peeing to twice in 6 months. A vet that made me want to submissive pee as well :rolleyes: and a 'trainer' at petsmart that jerked my dogs leash out of my hand.

I think with some professional help, like a behaviorist who can help with pre existing issues rather than a trainer that you may be able to work through this. Don't despair, you aren't alone.

coppperbelle
January 11th, 2007, 06:06 AM
Copper, thank you SO MUCH for relating so well and also for your finding that hypothyroidism is the cause of the seeming instability... I will look into that as it never crossed my mind and HOW RELIEVED we would be to learn that simple medication could make re-training easier!

I may have not been clear enough in my post. Medication alone was not responsible for Chloe's changes. We did attend obedience classes weekly for a year. I found a trainer who not only helped me with obedience but to understand the bullying Chloe was doing. I am not an inexperienced dog owner having had them all my life. I rescue dogs and bring them into my home all the time. I assess their behaviors but with Chloe I was too close to the situation and didn't see the problem. It took a third party to diagnosis her problem. So even though Chloe knew all her commands and listened we joined obedience classes. She excelled and her behavior changed. Along with classes we went out eveyday and worked on training. My neighbors can tell you about me walking in front of my house every night back and forth working on sit, stay, recall etc... Chloe had to learn control and that I was back in charge, something I probably let slip because I loved her so much. I believe medication was responsible for her change but without the training I don't know if it would have worked alone.
My point in all this is to say that even if your guy has a thyroid problem, medication will not be a quick fix. Find yourself a trainer that you like and feel comfortable with. There are bad trainers out there and there are some wonderful ones. Find yourself a wonderful trainer and work with your dog. It won't happen overnight but it will be worth it.

4thedogs
January 11th, 2007, 07:56 AM
Although you have said a lot there are some important details missing. Has she always been fearful, what were the other dogs at the ?breeder like socially. What kind of socializing has your dog had from the time you got her. How old was she.

If she came to you too early and/or from unsocial dogs she would have not have learned important social skills.

If she is locked away every time someone comes over she will not see them as a positive as they were the cause of her getting in trouble.

The way to resolve these issues are to get a trainer who is experienced with this kind of behaviour. One that can work with you through these issues.
This dog needs some extensive socializing and training. You will need to go out of your home for this, having someone come to the home will not be enough.

With the exclusion of any health issues which I don't think is the reason for this behaviour from what you have said. Almost all of the things you are dealing with can be linked to a lack of good socializing as a young dog.

Before you see a trainer document ALL the things that have happened, include as much detail as possible and set on a timeline. Document even the things you view as minor.
Example: What happened, when, where was the dog, what was going on at the time, were there other things involved, etc.

tajelilant
January 18th, 2007, 08:16 AM
This forum is wonderful! I am touched by all the responses and well-rounded advice given here. Someone asked if my dog has always been fearful... yes... she is less fearful now (or should I say fearful of less THINGS) than she was as a small puppy, which I suppose is a given, but when she came home with us she was terrified of everything... she shook in the car all the way home and was leery about noises, terrified at the sight of cars driving down the street, etc... She is still quite "paranoid" it seems, but what I'm noticing as she gets older is that she seems to be responding to fear w/aggression (at least barking, sometimes more) more often than just going behind the couch shivering.

At this point I don't know what to do. We are moving into a new home in less than a month, and I don't want to bring her into a new environment while she is already having biting issues. Have I yet mentioned that she throws up every time she gets in our van (or any vehicle, for that matter?) - I mean, before we even reach the end of the street!!! I've tried giving her ginger before going anywhere, and I'm not sure it was worth it... just more to clean up but a few minutes later than normal. She usually doesn't HAVE to go in the car... and we've stopped trying to force her. She pulls back and is absolutely terrified to get in a vehicle and for the first year of her life, we were determined that we would "get her used to it" trying various methods - put her on the seat, put her on the floor, crate her in the van, put her in the FRONT seat, open the window, close the window, give her organic ginger cookies ahead of time, give her nothing, hold her, talk to her, baby her, ignore her, you name it... the job of cleaning up the car made it not worth trying to take her anywhere any longer... if we are to be gone longer than a day, we now have to find a dog-sitter or take her to a kennel, which she acts horrificly WORSE after! Even when she APPEARS that she "gets it" (whatever we've been training her with - leash, for example) - she gets distracted and seems to care less about our commands or demands. I would be willing to try obedience classes, but we are so exhausted and knowing her personality, We are a busy family and DO have time for a dog, want a dog we can take places, easily train (and no, I don't mean we don't want to put in the time and effort), etc... and most of all, we need predictability in a dog that I don't have to worry about biting if she's in a grumpy mood for whatever unknown reason on a particular day. If I'm repeating myself, I apologize, but I visited the local SPCA talking about my dog's "issues", and they didn't seem the least bit surprised, considering her breed. While they also recommended obedience training, they also made it clear that, as an Eskie, she likely isn't going to behave quite like the many more calm and friendly dogs my children were having a ball petting in the kennels there, Eskies are unique, as someone above mentioned (Thank You).
We will be moving to a new home in a few more weeks, and I feel that if we aren't going to keep her, now would be the time to let her go... but I don't want to take her to the SPCA as I'm afraid she may not pass the tempermant test, and who knows what will happen to her at that rate! They suggested an Eskie rescue-group who specialize in working with Eskies and all their "quirks" and then may very well find a good home where her "ways" can be tolerated and handled.
And PLEASE let me clarify that this has not been easy... I know some of you have made reference to thinking that we are simply either "bored" with her or don't want to be bothered putting the time and effort into training, but when I look at the long haul, and how we want to take a month-long road trip NEXT Summer and know she can't go with us due to the motion sickness (can't train her to not throw up, LOL), and currently knowing she is so difficult (in comparison with other breeds) to train and handle, and her present unpredictability in attitude (curling up like a baby to be petted and then snapping at the wrong hand or biting my kids' friends who are already reluctant to come over here because they are terrified of her curdling snarls and barks)... I'm feeling like this isn't the dog we want for the long run, and is it fair to continue struggling with her, when we know there is a good chance that, while she may improve with obedience in certain ways, she still has a basic personality type that isn't fitting our family's lifestyle?
I also know it was unfair of me to get her because she was so cute. You go on Eskie websites and they talk about how wonderful they are. A little hyper, but otherwise, gentle, friendly, trainable, blah-blah-blah. Almost instantly after we got her, we started hearing things like "oh an Eskie? that's the only kind of dog that's ever bit me!" and "oh they're a tough breed" and "good luck, they're a handful". But we were determined to keep her... to "make it through". Now she is more of a burden on us than an enjoyment.
I'm feeling so guilty, and yet I feel like deep-down we know what needs to be done. Maybe. ;)

4thedogs
January 18th, 2007, 10:39 AM
What happens if you get rid of her, get another and the next one turns out the same way. I hear of this so often where it turns out that the family just wasn't doing something right and it wasn't the dog afterall but the environment they were being raised in. It doesn't have to be that they were being abused but if the family wasn't consistant enough, didn't socialize enough, didn't train well enough. I feel if you give this one up there is a chance the next will end up the same way. If she were a child you would seek out appropriate help and then work on the problems until they are fixed.
It sounds as if you have already given up on her without trying everything. You have tried on your own and there is something you are missing. If you get help from a professional you might be pleasantly surprised on what you find.

This was not meant to be rude but I see this behaviour all the time and it can be fixed with a little work.
You need to take care of the social issues as well as the obedience and doing it at home will not be helpful in her case.
Your husband may have had dogs growing up but I bet he is not the one who trained them, his parents probably did which would mean that he has no real memory of what was done and how hard it was. I am curious, were any of his family dogs badly behaved.

If you decide to give this one up I am not sure that you should get another. I don't think you have tried everything with this one.

4thedogs
January 18th, 2007, 10:45 AM
She doesn't respond to cues because she has never learnt to deal with distractions.
She doesn't like the car because she feels sick in it. Try gravol about an hour before you go, get dose from vet.
To get over the fear of the car you can start by just sitting in it and go nowhere. When she is good with that, start it but don't move it.......and so on.
She needs some good socializing to get over her fears of everything. You need a professional for this because you are probably doing or not doing something that could be encouraging the fear, feeding it for example.

These things will not be fixed over night, they will take work and time.

t.pettet
January 18th, 2007, 09:57 PM
Since you have pretty well made up your mind to re-home her I would recommend that she be put in Eskie rescue where she can be dealt with by professional, dedicated, people who are knowledgable with the breed. With the right environment, proper training methods etc. she might turn out to be a great dog. She deserves a 2nd. chance to 'turn around'. I have seen dogs that were described as 'impossible' by their original families become confident, sociable pets in the right environment. Hoping for a good future for your little dog.

twisten
January 19th, 2007, 11:34 AM
Wow this really surprises me. My parents and brother both have eskies, in fact there is a pic of them in the photo page with my chi playing. Neither one have ever been aggressive in any shape or form. My brother's is a bit more timid and absolutely won't go near strangers but if she knows you she is your best friend. They both came from different breeders and have been easy to train. My parents and brother did all the training. They both roll over, shake a paw, play dead, sit, dance, stay and many other tricks. My parents live on an acreage just off a very busy road and their dog has been trained not to cross the road. My brother can take his dog off leash anywhere and she won't leave his side even if another dog comes around. My parents however can't do with this theirs, she will take off to go play!! They were both spayed as puppies. I wonder is yours spayed? I don't remember seeing that anywhere. Hormones can maybe be playing a part in this also.

joeysmama
January 19th, 2007, 08:29 PM
I feel very sorry for your dog. There are people who may not agree with me but I think that dogs are very intuitive and she can probably sense that you're not waning to keep her. This can't help the situation.

I hope and pray that she finds her forever home. If you think about getting another dog please keep in mind that there is no dog that can understand what your idea of the ideal dog is.

I hope you'll let us know what happens to Talin. :sad:

super dog feliz
January 21st, 2007, 06:05 PM
but i understand, at least a little, what you must feel like with so much going on in your home already with 8 and then a puppy is more work than anyone really expects. my boyfriend is a musician and writes kids music, i suggested a song that expresses just how much responsibility and work it really is.

about the other things. i'm far from a trainer, but i'm obsessed with helping my dog socialize into the world with manners. especially since she's part pitbull and i grew up with pitbulls, i realize what they are capable of and that they SIMPLY MUST be trained properly.

a recommendation that i can't help but give...if you access the internet a lot...please try and find the show "dog whisperer". i have watched the full first season. it has completely changed the way i engage with my puppy. it has again and again stressed how important it is to be CONFIDENT and CALM ASSERTIVE with your dog. discipline should never be in the crate. dogs aren't ALLOWED to make decisions...that's our job. he spends a lot of time talking pet psychology which is different than training. you would be surprised what he can do in 20 minutes with an out of control dog. i'm not saying you can DO THIS yourself...but he gets you into the mind of the dog.

also, being afraid of a dog is completely surrendering your position as the pack leader. dogs must always submit to us. how to do that will take some serious training and consistancy from your whole family.

keep positive. don't give up hope, chances are your dog realizes she has control but doesn't have any idea, nor should she, on what to do with it. calm assertive = alpha. your dog MUST respect you. these are the kinds of things that you will hear on DOG WHISPERER. great confidence builder for dog owners with troubles.

.unknown.
January 25th, 2007, 01:44 PM
yes. i highly recommend the book Cesar's Way. Or trying to catch The Dog Whisperer on Discovery/national geographic.

I have applied alot of the knowledge in that book to my own dogs, more specifically my little spitfire pitbull, and it's almost instantaneous, the change in behaviour.

One of the two most prevalent points that is made in this guy's philosophy is that most behaviour problems stem from a.) not enough exercise for the energy level of the dog and b.) the guardian is not taking a leadership role consistantly or at all with the dog, or, both. He says he's never met a dog he can't rehabilitate....it's almost always the owner's who encourage the behaviour by lack of excercise and/or leadership.

He's stated that a good dog, is a tired dog. - Meaning you've excercised him/her for at least an hour/day and tuckered them out. He said the best is to walk before work, then before the dogs evening meal....the meal being the reward for the walk.

Again, the knowledge in the book has worked wonders for my dogs...

SARAH
January 25th, 2007, 02:40 PM
In your situation, I'm not sure if I wouldn't talk to a good vet - somebody knowledgeable - about medication. Since all of her behaviours seem to be essentially fear-based, maybe a little Prozac WITH retraining would work? I have no idea if it is the same as in humans - sometimes the outcome of medication is positive, sometimes quite neutral, sometimes negative - but it might give her, and you, a little respite.

Rather than chemical Prozac (my ex used it, and I know how it works), have you ever hear of Bach's Remedies? All plant based, and one is called "Rescue" and really calms a panicked person right down with just a drop under the tongue.

Winston
January 25th, 2007, 03:03 PM
I agree with the previous post's on Cesar Millans's philosophy! He has a wonderful DVD Set and it speaks volumes on how we should raise our pets! Excersie is a very big part of it and he shows you how he puts dogs on a tread mill for those that cannot get exercise! It is truly amazing!

I feel for you and good luck!

Cindy

tenderfoot
January 26th, 2007, 09:08 AM
Cesar says a lot of good things - please becareful trying to imitate what he does.

He is currently being sued for animal cruelty for putting a dog on a treadmill and it nearly died. The dog was left on a treadmill with a choke chain and the dog must have slipped off and was found nearly dead - trachea severly damaged and back legs shredded.

Cesar has skills that the average person does not - they are honed over many years of practice. He even uses pressure points to subdue animals that are not otherwise controlable. This could put a lot of animals and people at risk if they try to immitate him. His methods are geared towards aggressive dogs and should not be neccessary for the average dog and certainly not to pups. There is so much a person can do without even touching a dog before you should ever have to resort to physical contact.

Cesar talks about exercise, discipline and love. Thats great and all are very important. Exercise is vital to all living beings - but I want my dog to behave well even if he hasn't had his 4 mile jog that day.

I think Cesar has done a lot to bring the conversation of dog training to the table. Just be very careful before you try to imitate him - even National Geographic has big disclaimers on the show.

Winston
January 26th, 2007, 09:38 AM
Absolutely Agree...Common sense must be used....Afterall, who would put their dog on a treadmill if it didn't want to and on top of that with a choke chain? I just think that he has some good tips and not everything that he does can be used with every dog...Just some useful information...

Cindy

4thedogs
January 26th, 2007, 09:47 AM
What you see on tv is not as accurate as you may think, lots of editing, retakes and don't assume that when you see him working with a dog that it is the first time. He shows the quick version. Also, even though he can get them to do what he wants doesn't mean that it is now fixed.
This is the problems with these types of shows. It appears that all behavior problems can be fixed in a matter of minutes, not so.

Mahealani770
January 26th, 2007, 02:40 PM
Is there an update on Talin? :fingerscr

FlynnMB
January 31st, 2007, 07:59 AM
Hi there

Read "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fennell (United Kingdom). It is excellent! I have a dog who thought that he was the leader of the pack here, guarding the house from all comers & really frightening them. He wouldn't let me open or close the gate (he pulled me back by the trousers) he did the same when I went near the fireplace. Her book does not use any cruel treatments.

I have been exercising her philosophy for the past fortnight & you would not believe the change in Hector. No barking and snarling at strangers, no getting excited when I go near the gate or fire, no pulling on the lead. He is a pleasure of a dog, he comes when he is called etc. & this was just by making it clear that he did not have to lead the pack (which is a role that he didn't like very much). He just seems so relieved to have al this responsability lifted off his little shoulders.

Regards

Mary

Spirit
January 31st, 2007, 11:00 AM
Cesar says a lot of good things - please becareful trying to imitate what he does.

He is currently being sued for animal cruelty for putting a dog on a treadmill and it nearly died. The dog was left on a treadmill with a choke chain and the dog must have slipped off and was found nearly dead - trachea severly damaged and back legs shredded.

Cesar has skills that the average person does not - they are honed over many years of practice. He even uses pressure points to subdue animals that are not otherwise controlable. This could put a lot of animals and people at risk if they try to immitate him. His methods are geared towards aggressive dogs and should not be neccessary for the average dog and certainly not to pups. There is so much a person can do without even touching a dog before you should ever have to resort to physical contact.

Cesar talks about exercise, discipline and love. Thats great and all are very important. Exercise is vital to all living beings - but I want my dog to behave well even if he hasn't had his 4 mile jog that day.

I think Cesar has done a lot to bring the conversation of dog training to the table. Just be very careful before you try to imitate him - even National Geographic has big disclaimers on the show.

The treadmill incident happened last year. I have heard/read MANY different variations of this story (pittbull or lab, choke or pinch, dog fell off and hurt his neck or dog fell and broke his leg trying to get back on, etc), but most (or all, I can't remember) of them claim that Cesar nor the National Geographic Channel was ever served with a lawsuit. Unless I see proof of what happened, I'm going to chalk it up to being blown out of porportion. Especially since Cesar claims the dogs are never unattended. Regardless though, this incident is neither here nor there. Remember when Oprah was being sued for an audience member being shoved into her seat? I think she hurt her arm or something. lol (Point being, is that Cesar's an easy target).

Cesar Millan has helped me understand my dog (and many others) better, but his "choke chain and alpha roll" solution will not work well with every dog. You need to remember that his techniques are suitable for only certain personalities, and it takes someone like Cesar to know where and when to use them, and how to use them correctly.

If you watch the show though, you will for sure learn many things about human/dog communication. Like everyone else here said though, please be VERY careful. You're dealing with a highly fearful dog, and even the slightest bit of intimidation can create a huge setback (even if you think you're moving forward).

This thread is long, so forgive me if I missed something, but what is the energy level of your household? Is it really quiet (dog home alone all day? Do people come and go often? Is there any high level energy noises (yelling or fighting, kids playing, construction)? What about at your new house?

tenderfoot
January 31st, 2007, 01:27 PM
Yes, Cesar has made a good target for many people - that comes with celebrity.

My point was to caution people that some some his methods can be dangerous if not in the hands of skilled/experienced people.

I become nervous when clients show up and they have been trying to do the Vulcan grip on their puppy because they saw Cesar do it and now the pup is fearful of them.

Spirit
January 31st, 2007, 05:20 PM
My apologies, Tenderfoot. I didn't mean to overstep. Cesar Millan has a way (or at least he did with me) of explaining canine behavior, which makes certain issues easier for us to understand, and to help us find a solution that our dogs understand.

People have voiced to me their opinion about him or his show, but when I ask if they've ever seen it, the answer has always been no. It's a shame that some people hear things like "he's being sued for tying a dog to a treadmill and the dog got hurt", and jump to conclusions about his techinque being abusive to animals. And of course it can be, in the wrong hands.

If you haven't seen his show, I reccommend it. But I do not, under any circumstances, reccommend using his techniques on any dog without professional advice. And even then, I know some "professionals" that I wouldn't take advice from if they paid me.

I become nervous when clients show up and they have been trying to do the Vulcan grip on their puppy because they saw Cesar do it and now the pup is fearful of them.

I too have seen this happen. It's quite sad.

tenderfoot
January 31st, 2007, 08:12 PM
No apologies needed and no overstepping ever! This is a forum for discussion and we all have our thoughts and ideas which might overlap, or not, at times.

We have been watching the show for some time now - eager to see what the fuss is about.

Don't get me wrong, Cesar says a lot of true and poignant things, but there is much that he does which he does not explain fully and the subtleties might be easily lost on the average dog person. I am thrilled so many people have benefited from his show, anything to make a dog's world better.

Trust me, when I say give a 'dink' on the collar and someone comes back with "Well, I YANKED on the collar and ....." I shudder. Even when I think I am being clear people will hear something and interpret it their way. So in many ways I sympathize with Cesar and his easy target.

Sundanz
February 6th, 2007, 11:25 AM
First of all your Eskie needs to be seen by a vet to rule out thyroid or other problems. Then you need to find a good trainer and behaviorist. Just remember one thing.... your dog could also be the result of bad breeding and no amount of good training will result in a better dog for you. Sure, some breeds are better suitable for families than others, but bad breeding is always an iffy issue. Breeding 2 crazy dogs will not produce a calm and tractable puppy. Sounds like your puppy came from a Mill where the bottomline is making money and not producing good dogs. That is why it is so very important to research and find good ethical breeders, not a puppy mill! If you want a good family dog you need to do your homework as to what breed is best suitable, one who is not normally aggressive, one who loves kids and is totally loyal to it's family, one who accepts strangers etc etc. Of course you must socialize the pup from day one and go to obedience training from puppyhood. Any dog can be made mean and aggressive if wrong and harsh training methods are used. I have a Golden Retriever, 4 years old, a wonderful and obedient dog I would not want to live without, and I also have a 6 month old Boxer puppy who is the cutest of all dogs. We go to our second set of obedience training and he is doing very well. Both dogs get along great, they play like crazy, and I take them to the park so the little one gets used to all kinds of people, joggers, bicycles, screaming kids etc. I don't think I will ever have a problem with either dog. Of course we treat them as family, and they know I'm the top banana and they are happy in their role as 'lower class'.

I'm sorry you have such problems with your dog, please make sure you find a more suitable family dog if and when you look again. I feel sorry for the dog too, seems like your dog had a bad start even before he/she was born.

4thedogs
February 6th, 2007, 12:35 PM
From the details we have received I don't believe it is the dog but how the dog is being raised.

Sundanz
February 6th, 2007, 02:28 PM
From the details we have received I don't believe it is the dog but how the dog is being raised.

Maybe true in this case but your statement that it is not the dog, only the way it's being raised is not always correct. Just look at the pitbulls. I happen to live in an area where some people breed the meanest and most aggressive dogs so the pups will be equally aggressive or worse. There is no way you can take such a pup and expect him/her to become the most loving and kind creature, even with the best of training. Somewhere along the line that aggressiveness will surface,most often unprovoked, and I would hate to be at the end of the stick when that happens. Unfortunately, it has happened in my neighborhood more than once. Why do you suppose people are encouraged to check out breeders, bloodlines etc before buying a pup? It is because traits can be passed on, including aggression/timidity etc. Yes, training can most definitely help but the chance of bad traits to surface at some point is also definitely there. In some breeds more so than in others. What I'm saying is that it is not just or only the owners fault if things go haywire, sometimes it's the poor dog himself who cannot jump over his own shadow because his genes won't let him.

mireland
March 14th, 2007, 01:55 PM
I am astonished! This poor woman has a dog that is biting her, her kids, her neighbors, other dogs and throwing up, peeing and pooping everywhere he goes and you people jump all over her and blame her? Excuse me, but you don't need to be giving advice on a pet forum. Dogs should not bite EVER! Not adults, not kids, not other dogs, period. It is TOTALLY unacceptable. And you are even more unacceptable for essentially condoning the dog bites. It is obvious that this dog has way more problems than she should be expected to handle. She has a responsibility to keep her kids (and others) safe from dog bites and not doing that constitutes child abuse. Talin's owner - I would turn the dog into the rescue without a second thought and if they can't turn the dog around, it needs to be put to sleep before it attacks anyone else. And don't worry, God will bless you for cleaning up poop, pee and throwup for 3 and half years.

pitgrrl
March 14th, 2007, 05:25 PM
A wee bit of an old thread, and one I'd love to read an update on, but just to address the most recent post....

Talin's owner - I would turn the dog into the rescue without a second thought and if they can't turn the dog around, it needs to be put to sleep before it attacks anyone else. And don't worry, God will bless you for cleaning up poop, pee and throwup for 3 and half years.

IMHO, when one takes on the responsibility of a dog, it is, barring any truely horrible circumstances, for life. Few of us take our dogs knowing what the next 2/5/10/15 years will bring, but it is reasonable to expect that every dog will have some frustrating trait(s) and/or medical issue at some point, the perfect dog is a myth after all.

What confuses me about the above is the suggestion that the dog should be brought to a rescue "without a second thought". Why is it the rescue's responsibility to deal with other people's problems that they themselves can seek help for? Why should a rescue put in the time and effort to try and deal with these behaviors/possible medical issues and possibly the $ for the services of a behaviorist and not the owner who made the commitment in the first place?
Further, if the decision is reached that the dog is truely a danger and cannot be worked with to resolves these issues, is it not the least an owner can do to hold the dog while it's PTS, rather than putting that onto someone who does rescue and allowing the dog to go with a virtual stranger, rather than the family it's always known?

Prin
March 14th, 2007, 05:45 PM
I totally agree pitgrrl.

When I adopted my dogs, I promised them I would do my absolute best to keep them healthy, happy and safe. If I'm not good enough to do it on my own, it's my responsibility to get them the help they need, whether it be a veterinarian, professional trainer or behaviorist, or any other animal specialist.

Just because you leave a problem for years and let it get really bad, it doesn't mean it's irreversible.

mireland
March 16th, 2007, 01:28 PM
or you would know that I said "without a second thought" after this poor woman had done everything she could to help this obviously psychotic dog. Taking out a "blurb" of what I said - out of context - (pretending not to understand that it was said with the knowledge the woman had done everything possible) only makes you look self-serving.


And I reverse my earlier position and I fully agree, why should she bring the dog to a rescue where some other poor family could be blind-sided and saddled with this? I just brought that up because that seemed to be the general consensus of the group - to take the dog to rescue and give them a chance to rehabilitate before putting the dog down. Although I have no idea how you can rehabilitate a dog from chronic, spontaneous waste elimination.

But you are right - she has a responsibility not to subject others to a horrible future and to be a responsible owner and have the courage to take the dog to be put down herself.

If you are so sure that there is nothing wrong that can't be fixed, why don't you take the dog?

t.pettet
March 16th, 2007, 10:25 PM
Dog's are not disposable but if this owner can't cope then a rescue with their expertise, proper correction methods, dog psychology and years of experience could probably do a good job turning this animal around. This dog deserves a 2nd. chance and if he can be rehabed by a rescue then why not give him that chance instead of ending his life due to one family's inept methods of 'fixing the problem'. Rescues are there for that purpose, to evaluate behaviours and help animals in distress.

Quins-mum
March 16th, 2007, 11:24 PM
Dont get rid of her "Just" because she doesnt fit your idea of the ideal family dog.

I have seen so many tv programmes where ppl get trainers to come into their house and train their dog.. AND IT WORKS!

I hate to be rude, but if you had a child that was unruley or even "god-forbid" disabled, you wouldnt give him way... you would make things work.

I really get pissed off when ppl decide that their animal "Just doenst fit into their life".. Animals are NOT a COMMODITY

we3beagles
March 17th, 2007, 12:08 AM
Not only that, but she got this dog as a puppy and was supposed to mold and shape behaviors and properly socialize their puppy. Sounds like their dog is afraid most of the time and this usually comes down to proper socialization. Instead of "consulting" a trainer they should have been taking obedience classes and socializing classes from the start. For people to think that good dogs are just born is the height of ignorance and dangerous to boot. If you don't want to put in the time and effort required for a dog please don't get one. And to the poster that thinks that it is okay to just give away your dog because they turned out to be the dog that you created, God love your children. I work in rescue and I am constantly bombarded by the ignorant idea that my dog is a "bad one" and needs to be put down. I cannot even tell you the number of dogs I have snagged just before they took their final walk only to be successfully rehomed to loving families that realize that it is a commitment like any other and requires work and time to make it a good one.

Quins-mum
March 17th, 2007, 12:43 AM
she has a responsibility not to subject others to a horrible future and to be a responsible owner and have the courage to take the dog to be put down herself.



WHAT!!!!!! Put the dog to sleep!!!!! I am astonished that ANY animal loving person would even consider such a thing!

THERE are ways to help this family...BUT the family needs to WANT to help themselves.

Its not the dogs fault... its an issue that has been bred into the dog since it was a pup!

So lets all just agree... put the dog to sleep and we can all go back to our happy little sugar-coated lives- NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

GET a grip...get motivated and get the dog trained!

Quins-mum
March 17th, 2007, 12:47 AM
the thing is... that this poor dog has probably already been put to sleep as we havent heard anything more!
Some ppl should NOT have pets.

zizi
April 1st, 2007, 11:16 PM
I'm shocked that so many forum members are eating this lady alive... it's clear to me that neither her family or her dog are good for each other. She's totally in over her head and seems like she's sought out a lot of help before making her decision (and lasted three and a half years with a dog who would be a nightmare for any owner.)

This illustrates so well why we have to be so careful about where we get dogs from, so we can make sure they have a good temperament. It sounds like the dog was just unfortunately not bred with this quality in mind, and had enormous difficulties with socialization with humans and animals. There is only so much an owner can do, some of it is actually up to the dog, even with the best behaviourists.

I think in this case you really have to consider both the well being of the owner - AND of the dog. With an unsuitable owner this dog is never going to have a chance to fulfill its potential (if that's possible.) Further it sounds like these owners are fairly responsible & experienced (at least the husband) but unfortunately but have reached the limit of their abilities... at this point there is no bond between them and this is harmful to both the owners and the dog. I think it's much better to take the dog to a rescue, try to find him/her a loving home with an owner who is upfront, aware of the problems the dog has, and ready to face that challenge head on, than having a busy family be frustrated over and over again.

The owners were irresponsible in getting the dog and maybe made some mistakes in its upbringing. That's their fault. It sucks for all concerned, especially the dog who probably never should have been bred in the first place. However, at this point, there is little future for this dog with this family. It's better for all concerned if the dog can find a more suitable owner (one hopes :() and if the owners can maybe raise a dog, from a RESPONSIBLE BREEDER, who may be more adaptable to their environment.

It is sad and inexcusable but people make mistakes when they adopt dogs... I think it is better that these are acknowledged, and that the dog is rehomed, for all concerned. Yes, a dog is for life... but it's cruel to keep a dog in an inappropriate home with inappropriate owners, just because we believe in this principle.

Quins-mum
April 2nd, 2007, 03:36 AM
well Zizi, the hard cold fact of the matter is, the none of us have heard what has happened to this dog, and is prob in puppy heaven.

I dont think that any of us have ever taken the piss out of the poster, we are just concerned about what happenes to the dog, is that such a sin? the dog only knows what it has been taught, its not the dogs fault in anyway.

Edgewaters
April 2nd, 2007, 07:41 AM
My first option with a dog like that would always be to rule out medical causes like a brain tumour or Cushing's Disease or something similar. Sending a dog with a brain tumour or an undiagnosed case of CD to a trainer is just plain unfair.

marko
April 2nd, 2007, 08:28 AM
The Op has not returned to this thread. It has run it's course and will be closed.

Thanks

Marko
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