December 27th, 2006, 09:39 PM
I read that you can not show a dog unless it is from a championship line, is this true???? Kinda makes no sence if you ask me.
What if... you had a pup, that actually was a near perfect "specimen" of the breed, but had no CH's in its lineage at any point.
Although this dog ( hypothetically) would be a definate champion and is the "perfect" image of the breed, it doesnt stand a chance?:confused: :shrug: Im confused
If this is true, how is this justified?
December 27th, 2006, 09:47 PM
as long as a dog is registered with the CKC (for Canada), is intact and meets the breed standard, it can compete in conformation shows. For a dog to be eligible for CKC papers, both parents must also be registered. There is no requirement for "CH" titles in the bloodlines. :dog:
December 27th, 2006, 09:49 PM
Thanks TD, that really confused me.( not your post, but the one where i read that)
You mentioned you showed before, was it your dobies?
December 27th, 2006, 09:56 PM
yes, my dobies :o my boy finished his CH in 3 straight shows and was a specialty winner after that, and pointed in the states. sadly at just over a year old he suffered an ACL tear and a botched surgery which never healed, so that canned his show career :( we were all devastated, this boy had everything going for him. he was bred only once and his get all completed their CH titles, one girl even went Best In Show. And my little girl only had 3 points left to complete her CH title (specialty show winner too), but she got very sick with hepatatis and passed away 6 months after biopsy and diagnosis. I am still not over her passing :rip: The breeder is still going strong today though, and you can trace my boy back to her best dog's bloodlines :)
It was a fun but demanding hobby, i was young and didn't know how much i had to learn, looking back now I'm like "what the heck was i thinking!" :D
December 27th, 2006, 10:02 PM
Showing has always been in the back of my mind for some reason throughout my life so far, one day i really want to give it a go.
I always thought i would like to show either Rotties or Cockers, im not sure which one yet.:shrug:
You said earlier on that Dakota may just head into the show ring one day, will you be handling him?
I really would like to know all there is to know about showing , I have googled around a bit here and there but havent really had any solid answers to anything.
I always go to the 2 shows that come around here every year, i just love the environment, but i do have to say.... some of those "show People" are WEIRD:o I have talked to a few and man o man, they kinda freak me out. lol
December 27th, 2006, 10:11 PM
you know that movie "Best in Show"? well it's not a far stretch from the truth, LOL! :D
if dakotah doesn't grow a proper akita coat in the near future, he won't be going into the showring :( he looks perpetually "naked" (akita breeders say this about a dog that just blew its plush coat). if he had a thick coat his other faults would fade into the background, but the way things are now... nope. Also akita entries in dog local dog shows are dismal to non-existant :eek: all you see are labs, huskys and great danes :frustrated:
i would definitely handle him though, it's nerve-wracking but so much fun when you DO get a ribbon! LOL :crazy:
December 27th, 2006, 10:17 PM
Well maybe one day :rolleyes: just think it would be fun, i could be one of them "weirdos" lol:D
December 27th, 2006, 10:19 PM
I read that you can not show a dog unless it is from a championship line, is this true????
No, that's not true.
However, it is unlikely that a dog from non-championship lines just happens to be a quality specimen. A pedigree full of non-champions usually strongly suggests that no one along the way was paying any attention to conformation and breed quality.
I've certainly seen my share of bybs saying that their puppies from non-championship lines can compete, but once you see the dogs/puppies it's pretty clear that they really have no idea about conformation and quality. I'm sure their dogs are beautiful in their eyes, but it's almost certain that they won't be in the eyes of qualified judges.
Quality in breeding requires a lot of commitment and knowledge. It doesn't usually just happen. Even if the dog from non-championship lines manages to finish its championship, it may be because of a general lack of quality in that particular breed or in that area and it's the best of a poor lot. It may finish in an area where the point schedule is low. It may have been dragged around to shows for several years. Sometimes *how* a dog finishes its championship is important to know. I've definitely pointed dogs that didn't deserve to finish. I've finished some dogs nickel and diming all their points. And then I've had dogs that have finished in much more spectacular ways, earning their points at specialty shows against the best of the best. Those wins mean more.
December 27th, 2006, 10:28 PM
Thanks, that was informative and made alot of sense.
It was a hypothetical question, but thanks for clarifying it all up, it is "possible" but unlikely!;)
I dont get how you can "tell" from a little pup, that it is going to have show potential??:shrug: I have so much researching to do:rolleyes: like i stated a while ago though, im not looking to do this for a while yet thats for sure.:o
December 27th, 2006, 10:29 PM
excellent points, maryanddobes! alot of people don't think of that aspect of showing. and it's why i say a "CH" title in front of a dog's name doesn't always guarantee quality! :pawprint:
December 28th, 2006, 02:13 PM
I dont get how you can "tell" from a little pup, that it is going to have show potential
*You* probably won't be able to tell, but a knowledgeable and experienced breeder usually has a pretty good idea. That's why it's important to deal with people who are knowledgeable and experienced in areas that you are not. If you choose a breeder that has a history of producing quality dogs, a number of which finished championships easily there is a much better chance you'll actually get a show potential puppy.
In the example you brought up previously - a puppy happening to be show potential from a line of non-champion dogs. There is a small chance it may happen. I'm not trying to make this about me or anything, just using this as an example -- I've produced a total of 22 puppies (in 10 years). Of those 22 puppies, 7 have finished their championships and an additional 4 were pointed before ultimately being altered. One was a Best Puppy In Show winner, another two were Best Puppy In Group winners, some of them earned at least some of their points at specialty shows in tough competition. Taking it a bit further, six have finished obedience titles. Two of them have been recognized with the title Register Of Merit from the national breed club for excellence in conformation, performance and temperament. In short, a breeder like myself IS doing a variety of things with my puppies, gaining knowledge along the way. Obviously, there are breeders out there WAY more successful than I, and they are the breeders you can generally trust in knowing what is going to turn out and what isn't. You want that recorded history, you want their experience, you need to find someone you can trust who will be upfront with you about what you can expect. You need to look at the record of success of the breeders you talk to, you need to specifically ask about their record AND their ratio of success. Knowing how many champions they've produced doesn't give you the full story. Knowing how many champions they've produced AND out of how many puppies produced gives you a much clearer picture! These are things that novices often overlook. They get all starry-eyed about a number of champions not knowing what the actual ratio of success really is.
Additionally, there are breeders out there who own champion dogs but they didn't produce them and really can't take responsibility for their success. I can think of one breeder in my area who has purchased dogs who already finished their championships from other breeders or who have finished dogs produced by other breeders, they're produced literally hundreds of puppies and never once finished any of their own puppies. But people get snowed because the parents are champions. The actual success rate for the actual breeder is nil. None of their puppies have earned anything. Yet they are selling "show quality" puppies. Why? Beats me. But people eat it up.
December 28th, 2006, 02:24 PM
Thanks Maryanddobes, I am definately gonna get some pointers from you (or someone with the experience you have) when i do get started. I have been in contact with a few breeders in the GTA of both Cockers and Rotties, i have told them how i have no intentions of getting a pup anytime soon, but they have been great to help me with explaining a few things.
One of the Cocker Breeders , doesnt say every litter has a show quality, they actually told me that if ( and when) i was serious about doing this, and chose their kennel for my future "star" that i could end up waiting another 3 or so years for "that perfect pup" I liked that. One kennel of Rotties tried telling me all their pups were show quality:rolleyes: I highly doubt it.
All of these kennels know too that i really dont have my mind set on which of the 2 breeds i would end up showing ( when the time is right) some breeders admired that,and helped me out anyway, telling me points about their breed, as well as pros AND cons of showing their breed. Others said i needed to know more before "bothering them":frustrated: I think i will just avoid those kennels.
January 2nd, 2007, 09:32 PM
I love watching dog shows - even though I have never shown and dont plan too. Joey was a show dog back in the day - but was never bred - his former owner sent us all his all his pictures and ribbons etc.
Just had to share the picture - hope you guys dont mind :)
He is retired and fixed now :)
January 2nd, 2007, 09:34 PM
wow! joey is a STAR! :crazy: :thumbs up
hims sooo beautiful, what a great photo AND a great win! may i ask why he was retired and never bred, and placed in a companion home?... just curious :)
January 2nd, 2007, 09:54 PM
grr my post that I had almost finished just vanished wierd :frustrated:
Joeys former owner told me she never bred Joey because he had a tooth missing/or knocked out and she found out he was to closely related to the female he was to be bred with - I dont know weather she lived in the same house or not.
We ended up getting Joey from the English Cocker Rescue association - has a rehomed older show dog. Apparently Joey only got along with the female dogs in the house and not the females. For me Joey only gets along with small female dogs and cats - but not big dogs :o ...so around the time that we filled in the adoption forms- we got an email from Joeys owner asking if we would be interested in Joey - he sounded perfect for us -
He did end up having a few issues that she never mentioned, like resource guarding and aggression towards other dogs, but we love em all the same and will just continue to work on the issues.:)
January 2nd, 2007, 10:20 PM
but we love em all the same and will just continue to work on the issues
he he! that's what my hubby says about me :D Joey got lucky, first a star and now a superstar (of your hearts)!
January 3rd, 2007, 12:48 AM
WOW, Joey the super star!!! I had no idea!
Thanks for sharing that jecm.
January 3rd, 2007, 01:38 AM
Cool pic JECM :cool: . Joey is a star and he looks so darn handsome :cloud9: .
January 4th, 2007, 12:43 PM
Erykah, I'll be learning right along with you. I hijacked one of TD's threads not too long ago about showing her dogs and what it takes to learn how to show, as I've always thought about doing it. So, I thoroughly enjoyed "MaryandDobes'" input. I guess we'll learn together :confused:
January 4th, 2007, 12:53 PM
when you start looking for a rottie, there are seiger shows in the T.O area. and in ONT, there are only a couple breeders I would reccomend getting from, one now retired. breeding.
My breeder is a def stay away from....can give you her name if you want....I can give you a couple to stay the heck away from. They talk a good talk, but their ethics are the tubes.
January 4th, 2007, 08:20 PM
JECM, I bet Joey is glad he doesn't have to get his hair done every week anymore.. He can just let go.:D
January 4th, 2007, 10:14 PM
I spent just over 2 months looking at cocker breeders. I found even the ones with awesome, multiple country champions were using dogs that often had genetics that made me cringe. Looks like if I get a puppy I'm shipping it from NC, because I couldn't find a breeder closer that had decent enough health standards. Careful if you end up picking cockers as your breed of choice, they are awfully plagued with problems, and many breeders are looking the other way rather than trying to exclude dogs with health issues from their breeding programs.
January 5th, 2007, 01:32 AM
I admittedly am more knowledgeable about the intriguing world of cat shows - something I might do if I was retired and had more time but something tells me I may never retire (given the need for ppl in my profession and b/c like many baby boomer types, I don't see myself not working in some capacity, even it is teaching or admin. I see so many of my own mentors now well into their 80's still teaching medicine, providing assistance with diagnostics and research, writing and a plethora of other tasks. Obviously, almost no one performs surgery and certain other procedures at that age but there is much they can do!).
That said, - and sorry for the sidebar on the whole retirement q, <g> - it is my understanding from showing cats (which I think is similar but I know not ALL the rules are the same) - that I would offer the following observations:
1. Become a formal member of the CKC or the US equivalent (AKC?) so your dog is registered. This is usually not necessary when you purchase a dog from a credible breeder since many register their puppies as part of their establishment. And a knowledgeable and experienced breeder will be able to tell you if your dog is show quality or pet quality and obviously, the cost varies between the two. Pet quality puppies are spayed or neutered while show quality pups are not in the event they do become champions and you - the "owner" - seeks to prolong that line for the betterment of the breed. There is one legit org for each country - all these so called "certified" dogs in pet stores or homes come from back yard breeders.
I am uncertain about dogs (I am sure someone here does tho :) ) but often, there is a category for household pets that are spayed and neutered. These dogs cannot become champions per se (acc to the rules tho I know they are all champions in our hearts!!) but if you and your dog(s) enjoy it, it could be a fun activity! I think the CKC at least accords these dogs the "status" of companion dogs while show quality pooches are referred to as primary members.
It is always advisable to attend dog show and obtain an idea about how it all works. Watch, observe, meet ppl in the biz (It is more of a hobby and can be an expensive one if you have a few dogs and travel around the country but for ppl who enjoy it - and whose dogs likewise have fun - it is a fun hobby. It's a great place to meet ;like minded people who love animals - sort of the offline facsimile to this site, with a few more rules. :) )
If you are really serious, find a mentor - often certified breeders will mentor new puppy moms and dads but there are others available in the organization as well, locally or otherwise. It may often depend on the breed of the dog. It is easier to find someone for say a lab - because there are more of them than a breed not as common. But it is also good to talk to people who have dogsof all breeds.Read as much as you can - research, research, research as they say. I am sure even on this site there are ppl who belong to the CKC or AKC and can give you much more detailed and precise info than I. (Now if you need to know about cats, lol) I just know how it works from seeing friends who are involved in the process or from attending a few shows with them.
One of my friends who raises Yorkies was telling me the other day that she is finding fewer ppl in the breeding process - at least the legitimate one. We agreed this is a good thing. The reason- the increasing costs, it can be a VERY expensive hobby. Only byb's seem to be under some illusion they can make money at this and while some of them might, they most assuredly are not in it for their love of animals. (and you won't find any CKC registered puppies at a pet store <Shudder>.
Here are some urls that might help:
There is an email list for people who show dogs, my "Yorkie" mama friend has all these urls on her computer. She has two dogs that have won their championships. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/learntoshow/
The others are for the CKC and the section on their site about showing your dog.
Jane Anderson has a good site about breeding - but many people who show their pooches really do not want to get into the sometimes difficult and always expensive world of breeding. This is her site and it may contain other info about shows. http://www.learntobreed.com/
My Sphynx kitties started out their lives as show cats and liked it and YY would have been also eligible - and indeed they all are (even the new man, Beauregard or Beau for short) - but they are all spayed or neutered so would have to compete in the household pets class now. I do not know how that works exactly for dogs but here is a fairly basic article about what to expect for cats who lack a pedigree. http://www.catchannel.com/activities/fun/article_20972.aspx
(Three of mine have a pedigree sev km long but once they were spayed and neutered, they were no longer amg the eligible for the big time, lol) I am sure there must be similar articles available from the AKC and CKC.
CFA and TICA have begun to hold virtual competitions now but I do not know if that is being done for dogs? Other than like in places like here, <g> (and I am not even sure how it works on this site come to think of it. Most of us have posted pix of our babies so I assume they are selected from that for Pet of the Month but I have not read those rules and maybe one has to enter separately???? For me, my cats are cats of the month every month, lol :D - but it is kinda cute to see the pet of the month and congats meb99 btw!! :thumbs up
Hope this helps - if anything, it'll give you more reading material, just what you may not need, lol Good luck!!!
January 8th, 2007, 02:11 AM
No all you need is papers and a dog that meets the standards. Charlie has some champions in his bloodline but thats not a prerequisite. Im so proud of Charlie though he just won his first best of show i have to get some pics sometime. Charlies next show is in june. Im hoping to make him a champion