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Goldfish

springermom0406
December 16th, 2006, 07:59 PM
I currently have one goldfish.. not exactly sure what 'type' he is, but he's getting too big for his 10 gallon tank. He is all white with one red spot on his head.

I have been offered a 55gal tank with filter, light, & stand included for $175. I'm wondering if I do get it, I'd like to have more than just 1 fish in it. How many goldfish could go in a 55gal tank? And then I'm wondering exactly how much room this is going to take up lol.

I realize being a goldfish he needs more than 10 gallons anyway, so I may just find something smaller. Opinions? Is it alot of work to keep up with a tank so big?

Sneaky
December 17th, 2006, 04:10 PM
Hi Springermom,
that is a great deal on the 55g tank, and yes, you certainly
could have more than 1 goldfish in there.
The usual recommendation is 25-30g for the first goldfish (if a larger
variety 10 inches +), then 10g per additional goldfish.
There are of course some exceptions to this rule.
Black Moors, are a smaller goldfish, maxing out at about 6 inches,
so for example, 2 black moors would equal 1 oranda in bioload
requirements.
Orandas, Fantails, and Ryukins are the 2 largest of the fancy goldfish,
acheiveing 10-14 inches and sometimes more.
The Shubunkin takes a close 2nd at 8-12 inches.
All the rest of the fancy, egg shape bodied goldfish acheive
8-10 inches maximum.
So, you would want to stock accordingly.
IN 55g, if you went with only ryukin or oranda goldfish,
3 would be around the maximum, then maybe some other fish to compliment
the tank.
If you went with say other goldfish, you could go with like 1 ryukin,
2 black moors, and 2 telescope eyes, something like that.
Your goldfish is probably an Oranda, by the description, or could be a
ryukin.
At the end I will attach a link to goldfish types for you.

A 55g tank measures 4 feet long, 12 inches wide, and I think 16 inches
tall, though it could be 18 inches tall.

As for work, big tanks require less work than small tanks. They are easier
to stabilize, easier to keep clean, and the water stays cleaner simply because of a bigger volume.

Ok, so say youve got the tank set up and cycled, then you add
5 fancy goldfish, like 2 larger and 3 smaller.
You could also add some complimentary fish to this tank.
The Rubbernose (rubberlip) pleco is a good option for a goldfish tank with algae. These guys only grow to 4-5 inches on average (though some species
are larger but are not as common in pet stores).
Weather loaches, a neat, long skinny bottom feeder, that reaches 8-12 inches, but adds little to the bioload due to it being a good cleaner of excess food, these guys would add a nice amount of activity to the bottom.
A paradise gourami or betta splendens would also work well in a coldwater
goldfish tank, as would Rosy Barbs.
Avoid small tiny fish like neon tetras or white cloud minnows, unless you dont
mind replacing them regularly, goldies will eat them.

There are also lots of other coldwater tolerant fish, that would mix well with
goldfish, depending of course how many goldfish you plan to keep in
the tank.
Avoid goldfish like Comets, Common, or Koi. These fish all acheive lengths
of 24 inches - 6 feet in length .

Anyway, I hope this helps you, Springermom. As you can see, you definitely
have a lot of good options. With a 55g tank, it may seem like more work,
but really I find my 75g much easier than my 3 smaller tanks.
Also, they make a great product called a Python No Spill Auto Fill system,
which hooks up to your sink, and both drains the water and refills it. A great
investment. Lees also makes one that is slightly cheaper. Both come in 25, 50, 75, and 100 foot lengths.

Anyway, here is a link to the goldfish types page I mentioned earlier,
to determine which type yours is, and which types you would like,
and then we can probably discuss this more and in greater depth as you
go along!

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/ftypes.html

springermom0406
December 17th, 2006, 04:42 PM
Thank you for all the info!!! I am printing your post out so when I go get more fish I know what I'm doing lol.

I have two 10 gal tanks. One with the goldy and one with some type of tropicals. They are so hard to keep up with, constantly dirty, it drives me nuts. I'm glad to hear a bigger one would be easier. Right now I have issues with this green stuff on the side of the goldfish tank that won't come off with the scrubber. I don't think it's algae but it won't go away ugh.

I'm thinking the big tank would look great in our living room, although my goldy is in my room now and I love to watch him before I go to sleep :)

Think I'll take the guy up on the offer... its too good to pass on.

MyBirdIsEvil
December 23rd, 2006, 02:18 AM
A paradise gourami or betta splendens would also work well in a coldwater
goldfish tank, as would Rosy Barbs.

I don't really know anything about paradise gouramisor rosy barbs, but I would have to disagree that bettas will work well in a coldwater tank. A betta is likely to die or have an extremely short life span depending on how low the temperature drops.
While bettas will sometimes tolerate cooler temps, I wouldn't keep them below 74 personally, and 78-80 is about their optimum temp. If the temp dropped below 72 you'd be in the danger zone, not to mention they'd be pretty unhappy. They may live ok with some cooler water fish but goldfish tend to like temps that would be way too low for a betta.

My weather loach was in my 10 gallon temporarily with my betta (76 degrees), and while he looked good and was active he's really a coldwater fish and is now in our 90 gallon coldwater tank. Same with a betta in a coldwater, they may seem ok and be active but their lifespan will be cut short,and they're already not extremely long lived fish. I wouldn't suggest keeping any tropical fish, such as bettas, in a coldwater tank.

I do however agree that a dojo would be a great coldwater fish. They can handle temps sometimes well below 50 degrees and they're extremely hardy. There are several other species I could think of offhand, but they'd grow much too big for a 55 gallon tank.

Is it alot of work to keep up with a tank so big?

I think that depends on your perspective of a lot of work, lol.
We have a 10 gallon, 30 gallon (soon to be two), a 90 gallon, and a 5. I don't personally think it's much work once they're cycled, but I enjoy keeping fish. So while to me the maintence isn't too bad, to you it may be worse.
There is filter maintenece, depending on the type you have it may have to be done often, or may be complex. If you don't maintain filters they'll become clogged, and with many goldfish they WILL become clogged if you don't clean them. If you have other animals (I'm assuming you have dogs :D ), fur may get wrapped around impeller shafts, which will cut down on, or completely stop your filtration. We personally like to break down all filters once a month. Depending on the fish load and the type of filtration it may need to be sooner. A canister doesn't need cleaning as often as a power filter but is generally more of a pain to clean when it does (depending on brand and type).
You will also have to vaccuum gravel quite a bit, especially with goldfish, or else even your fully cycled tank and won't be able to keep up with the load and you may have several ammonia spikes. While the amount of water in a large tank is somewhat of a buffer for ammonia, a large load and insufficient cleaning and/or filtration will cause a spike QUICK.

Our 90 gallon contains native river fish, which are fairly dirty, and the gravel will develop a lot of muck if not kept clean. Not even a large amount of filtration (We have 2 canisters and 2 power filters on it) will get you out of gravel siphoning when you keep many messy fish. Also keep in mind that a large coldwater tank may take a bit of time to cycle, and during this time you really have to monitor the ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites, especially if you're using fish to help with the cycling. The ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels are usually easier to catch and fix in large tank, but if you don't pay a lot of attention to these levels they will get completely out of hand and kill your fish.

Sorry if any of this is stuff you already know, but I don't know your level of knowledge about fishkeeping, and I figured since I happen to have a very large coldwater tank I'd put my 2 cents in.

MyBirdIsEvil
December 23rd, 2006, 02:39 AM
Oh yeah, I also meant to mention a hospital tank.
You will need one with a bigger tank. If you treat a whole 55 gal. tank with medication you risk killing all your beneficial bacterial, which will be worse in the long run than the actual illness your fish has. If you kill all your bacteria your tank will re-cycle and you'll end up with ammonia spikes and whatnot.

springermom0406
December 23rd, 2006, 05:37 AM
Thanks for all the info. I learn something new everyday!

My 2 10gal's are alot of work because I can't keep them clean! Drives me nuts. The root of my problem with the one, was that the filter was all clogged up in the tube so once I cleaned that out, everything was fine. But my goldfish tank has green stuff on the sides, not like algae though, and it won't go away. I clean the filter every 3-4 weeks and vacuum the gravel the same. I put Cycle in it too. No luck. Any ideas?

MyBirdIsEvil
December 23rd, 2006, 11:43 AM
What size/type are your filters? Sounds like they're too small for the tank. As you already know your 10 gallon is too small for goldfish. How many fish are in your tropical tank? Unless it's overstocked or your filter is way too small it shouldn't be hard to keep clean.
If you have a filter that matches the size of the tank, it is adequate if your tank is understocked, but is too small for most tanks.
Here are our filter sizes on each of our tanks:
10 gallon tank - 50 gallon penguin power filter w/ biowheel. This tank is not overstocked. 6 kuhli loaches, one betta. The filter may seem overkill, but less filtration means more water changes and vaccuming. I change out a gallon of water a day, and vaccuum the gravel a little bit every week. I could actually afford to go 2 weeks, but I prefer to keep the water extremely clean. Since I have a biowheel I don't worry about removing good bacteria from the gravel, and since I have no undergravel filter my gravel probably doesn't have enough oxygen to grow much beneficial bacteria anyway.
30 gallon tank - 30 gallon penguin power filter w/ biowheel and 50 gallon penguin w/ biowheel. This tank is not overstocked, but at the limit. One betta, one anostomus, one fully grown opaline gourami, 4 corycats, one clown loach (soon to go back to the store with his friends).
5 gallon - not started up yet.
90 gallon - Rena Filstar XP3 canister filter (187 gph w/ media), Hot Magnum hang on the back canister (about 200 gph), Emperor 400 power filter w/ biowheel, Penguin 350 power filter w/ biowheel. And we STILL have to do plenty of gravel vaccuming because of how dirty our native riverfish are, which brings me to my next point:

You're not cleaning your tanks often enough. You should vaccuum your gravel at least once a week with goldfish in a 10 gallon, I would say 3-4 days would be even better. How often do you do water changes? Unless you have a canister filter on your 10 gallon, your filter won't be able to keep up with the load and elminate the ammonia sufficiently. Goldfish put off toxins through their gills, not to mention they poop a lot, so in a 10 gallon you should be doing water changes every 3-4 days and also siphoning the gravel. If you clean gravel once a month, you would have to be doing a 100% water change during that time to keep up, and that's hard on the fish.
They have to deal with a full change in water instantly, and they'll be sitting in their own waste for a month.
If you have a canister filter I would suggest putting some media in it, such as ceramic pieces, to collect beneficial bacteria. If you have a power filter you either need to run an undergravel (which I wouldn't suggest unless you are aware of the maintenence), or get a filter with a biowheel. Beneficial bacteria grow and work slower in coldwater tanks, so some kind of media is necessary.
I would be cleaning your filters once every 2 weeks in the goldfish tank. I mean cleaning the pipes and everything not just rinsing the filter cartridge. If you have, or are going to get, a filter with a biowheel, the biowheel should be floated in the tank while the filter is being cleaned, or else you will lose a lot of your good bacteria.If you have an on the back filter, I would spray your filter cartridge out often. Look at it every couple of days to assess whether or not it's clogged. When it is filled with enough waste that waste starts to decompose and lets all kinds of nasty toxins into your water. Some filters, such as our penguins and emperors, have a little overflow crevice on the side. If water it running through it at all the cartridge is clogged.
What is in your tropical tank? Assuming it is not overstocked you should be at least doing a 15% water change weekly, and vaccuming the gravel during this time. If you don't have a filter with a biowheel (a good one at that), or a canister filter with additional media, or an adequately maintained undergravel filter, then this especially necessary since you won't have enough beneficial bacteria to eliminate ammonia. Beneficial bacteria need plenty of oxygen to grow, and without an undergravel, the gravel in your tank won't grow enough to matter.

If a tank is heavily planted this will also cut down on maintence, but unhealthy or rotting plants will actually add to the bioload. For most people it's easier to just add more filtration since plants have to be kept healthy to benefit your tank. Goldfish will usually destroy plants anyway, so I wouldn't mess with them in that tank.

I also suggest you get a master test kit to test your ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. above .25 ppm of ammonia starts to be dangerous, and adequately you want the ammonia at zero. If the kit is finding any ammonia at all, that's really too much. My 10 gallon, which is the longest running tank in our house right now, tests at zero for ammonia. Once you start testing you'll realize why water changes and cleaning gravel once a month just aren't enough. It's scary to see just how much waste your fish could be living in.
Nitrites should be at 0, and nitrates should be below about .40 ppm. The papers that come with the kit usually tell you what levels are safe/not safe.

Right now I have issues with this green stuff on the side of the goldfish tank that won't come off with the scrubber.

Try a scraper or razorblade, that's what we do :shrug: Part of the reason you have such a large problem with this is that your tanks aren't clean enough.
(Don't use anything metal on a plastic tank, it will scratch. Use a plastic scraper)

MyBirdIsEvil
December 23rd, 2006, 11:51 AM
I put Cycle in it too.

I didn't know what that was, but apparently it's similar to Biozyme.

While it's a good idea to use stuff like that during water changes, it won't keep up with the load of your tank if you only clean it once a month. A biowheel, or filter media (such as ammonia crystals, carbon, ceramic pieces, etc.) will grow good bacteria for you (in the case of biowheel or ceramic), and help elminate toxins. Products such as Biozyme or Cycle are good for your fish, but there's no guarantee on the health of the bacteria they contain or whether or not they're out of date. Bacteria in the bottle die if the bottle is out of date, and I'm skeptical of how well they survive in the first place since bacteria need massive amounts of oxygen. I do use Biozyme, and it works well IF you have a biowheel, filter media or an undergravel for the bacteria to attach to.
Goldfish especially, will produce too much waste for these kind of products to keep up with.

Sneaky
December 23rd, 2006, 03:50 PM
MyBird
- Bettas are suitable for "coldwater tanks" of around 76F.
Many many people keep them as such.
Yes they are a tropical fish, but in winter in their native lands
temps drop well into the 60's. Most people with coldwater tanks
do not keep their tanks below 74-76F, as they dont keep their houses
below this. I have yet to meet any person who allows their house
to get below 74-76F.

Your 10g tank with 6 kuhli loaches and a betta is overstocked
unfortunately. Kuhli loaches grow to be 4 inches each - so 24 inches
just for the kuhlis alone. Your filtration however is plenty adequate
for the stocking you have if the tank is also heavily planted.
Myself, I wouldnt put kuhli's in a 10g, but thats just me. I know
many people who do. In my opinion, they are best suited
for tanks 20g or larger.

Springer - The green stuff on the sides of the tank is algae. If its hard
to get rid of with a sponge, its beard algae. There are some fish who
will eat it, none of which are small enough for 10g.
Ghost shrimp and cherry shrimp will eat it, but would be eaten by many
kinds of fish, including goldfish.

Hagens Cycle is a waste of money. It does not actually contain
live bacteria, and when I first setup my tank during the cycle I dumped
literally bottles of this stuff in and it did absolutely nothing.

The only bacteria product on the market that is proven to help cycle
a tank is Biospira. It contains Live bacteria, and is kept in the refrigerator
section in pet stores that carry it.
Stresszyme, Biozyme, all those are only enzymes that stimulate the growth
of live bacteria, and its unproven how well they work.
In a stable tank you will never need to add anything like this anyway.
Not unless you overclean your tank, or clean your filters and tank at the
same time, which you should never do anyway.

Finally I will address a qoute by MyBird here:
"Try a scraper or razorblade, that's what we do Part of the reason you have such a large problem with this is that your tanks aren't clean enough."

Yes, a dirty tank can have algae problems, however, this is not always the case. 90% of the cases in which tanks have severe algae problems, it results from having too much light in the tank, and nothing to compete with the algae.
In order to prevent algae blooms, there are several stages to getting rid of it, cleaning the tank is only 1 of them.
In order to completely prevent algae, you must:
1) Keep the tank super clean
2) Reduce light amounts
3) Add live plants to compete with the algae
4) Reduce feedings of the fish and plants with fertilizer
5) Ensure that your water or plant fertilizer does not have phosphates
in it.

There are many causes for algae growth, none of them pinned down
to one certain cause. Its very hard to generalize on algae.
Even in my super clean 10g tank, with creatures that devour
algae, and super heavily planted, I still get algae growth.
This is because there is a small amount of phosphates in my
tap water, which is just enough to keep the algae growing no matter
what I do to the tank.

MyBirdIsEvil
December 23rd, 2006, 04:56 PM
MyBird
- Bettas are suitable for "coldwater tanks" of around 76F.
Many many people keep them as such.
Yes they are a tropical fish, but in winter in their native lands
temps drop well into the 60's. Most people with coldwater tanks
do not keep their tanks below 74-76F, as they dont keep their houses
below this. I have yet to meet any person who allows their house
to get below 74-76F.

Sorry I'm going to just have to disagree, bettas aren't meant for cold water, and though they can handle it for periods of time I would absolutely NOT keep one in a cool tank permanantly. My house is around 70 in the winter, so yes there are people who let their house drop below 74. Room temperature is generally considered 72.
My river fish are kept at 68. The rivers here drop below 50 in the winter for several months sometimes, and yes the fish can handle it, but it doesn't mean I would keep their tank at winter temperatures on a permanent basis. Just because a betta can handle cool water because it drops lower in the winter in their native land doesn't mean they should be kept at that all the time. And honestly, how many betta splendens could handle the enviroment of their wild relatives? Wild bettas have short fins and are adapted to the waters they inhabit. The bettas that most of us keep at home have been bred for very long flowing fins, and there is no natural selection to weed out the ones that can't handle the temerature range in their original homeland. Bettas that you get from breeders have been kept in tropical temperatures their whole lives and are NOT meant for cool water.
Betta splendens can't be compared to their wild relatives in many aspects because they've been specifically bred to be a certain way.
Also, a goldfish tank that contains bettas would have to be heated enough to keep the bettas alive and well, which would make the tank too warm for goldfish. 76 is getting into tropical temps, and is MUCH too warm for goldfish. 68 is a good temperature for goldfish, 72 is ok, and 76 is WELL into the danger zone for goldfish. You could technically keep betta and goldfish in a tank together if it was kept around 72, but neither fish would be extremely healthy.
I'm not even sure bettas and goldfish would be compatible in other aspects, as goldfish can get much bigger and will possibly eat or harrass other fish.
In aquarium keeping you shouldn't be going for the high or low end of the temperature range that your fish can possibly handle, but the optimum range.

Kuhli loaches grow to be 4 inches each - so 24 inches
just for the kuhlis alone. Your filtration however is plenty adequate
for the stocking you have if the tank is also heavily planted.

I would disagree based on the amount and type of filtration, and the size of the fish (not length). Kuhlis, though long, are much smaller than most other 4 inch fish, and don't add much bioload. The inch per gallon rule only applies to some fish. My tank is turned over 18 times an hr, has adequate bacterial growth, and proper maintenence which is plenty adequate for kuhlis and a betta.
Goldfish , for instance, stocked at an inch per gallon would be overstocked. This rule is generally meant to keep inexperiened fish keepers from massively overstocking their tank, but it doesn't really apply to many fish. If everyone went by this rule, tanks would either be over or understocked and many fish would be horribly mistreated. Would you keep a 10 inch oscar in a 10 gallon tank? Of course not, you have to go by the fish. The inch per gallon rule is fairly useless for most experienced fish people.

Yes, a dirty tank can have algae problems, however, this is not always the case. 90% of the cases in which tanks have severe algae problems, it results from having too much light in the tank, and nothing to compete with the algae.

I completely agree, but letting a tank get dirty will definately aggravate the problem.

MyBirdIsEvil
December 23rd, 2006, 05:55 PM
springermom0406:
Here is a link on goldfish care:
http://www.petlibrary.com/goldfish/fishcare.htm It was linked from http://www.goldfishsociety.org/index.html which has a few other links.

From the above website:
Goldfish live in many different temperatures. Anywhere from 50 degrees F to 68 degrees F is best, provided that any change in temperature is gradual.

So 68 is at the high end. This may vary depending on variety, but in general goldfish don't tolerate warm water as well as cool.

This lists goldfish types and temperatures for each:
http://www.petlibrary.com/goldfish/variety.htm

Honestly kokosgoldfish doesn't have the best info IMO, so I would take things you see on there with a grain of salt. There is a lot of faulty fish information on the internet, so I would find some fish message boards to post to, and find information from several different sources before deciding on what to do. I could probably recommend some good message boards if you'd like, but at the moment my favorites folder is in shambles, so I'll have to search through it, lol.
Usually there are clubs and whatnot devoted to certain types of fish, and if you find their website they will often have links that have the info you want.

Sneaky
December 25th, 2006, 03:49 AM
MyBird - I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

I used Kokos goldfish only as a guide to determining individual
goldfish types, and much of the info there is faulty, but still better
than most other goldfish sites out there.

I still disagree about kuhli loaches. 24 inches of fish, no matter
how slim or low on the bioload is still much too much for a 10g tank.

Also remember when qouting temperatures, that the temperatures
mentioned are averages. This means they take all the temperatures
found in the wild and average them. This excludes both the low end,
where goldfish and bettas (who come from the very close environments),
experiences temps below freezing in the winter, and above 80F in the summer.
Fish are resilient, and capable of much wider ranges of temperatures that we give them credit for. We only go by "averages".
The problem comes when you expose fish to drastic temperature changes
of 10 degrees or more in a single day - in the wild such temperature changes would occur over weeks, rather than hours.

As for people keeping their houses at 72 ...brrrrr.
I keep my house at 78 in the winter, and it never drops below that
in the summer.
It would be impossible for me to keep a fish that could not
live below 76-78F, as my house simply does not go that low,
and I would need to invest hundreds of dollars on a chiller
to get below that.

MyBirdIsEvil
December 26th, 2006, 01:52 AM
I used Kokos goldfish only as a guide to determining individual
goldfish types, and much of the info there is faulty, but still better
than most other goldfish sites out there.

I would have to disagree, there are several better goldfish sites, and many forums dedicated to proper care.
I would also recommend getting books about them as they tend to be more complete and correct. Most of my goldfish information has come from talking to goldfish hobbyists and reading books specifically devoted to them, and I find that the best way to gather information. The internet is a poor substitute for information on them, IMO.
There is too much information online that is devoted to telling people what kind of extremes goldfish can be kept in, and what kind of enviroment they can tolerate, rather than relaying information on what enviroment is needed in order for them to thrive and what temperatures they actually require to remain healthy. Goldfish are prone to parasites and infections when kept in warm water, not to mention it stresses the fish, so though they can TOLERATE warm water, it is not recommended.
Also remember when qouting temperatures, that the temperatures
mentioned are averages. This means they take all the temperatures
found in the wild and average them.
That's not usually true of goldfish, though it may be of some other species. Temperatures recommended for aquarium goldfish (and most fish for that matter) aren't usually based on the water temperatures for wild goldfish, but the experiences of hobbyists.
Wild goldfish usually spawn in warmer temperatures, but those temperatures only last a few months, whereas most of their life is spent in cooler water, this is true of many similar species. Of course this is generalization since goldfish live in many regions and many different climates, so you can't use information on wild goldfish and apply it to an aquarium.
As far as Bettas, they barely resemble the wild type in any way, so information on wild Bettas don't apply to their aquarium conditions. When Bettas are housed in cool temperatures they are often more prone to illness, much like a goldfish housed in too warm a tank.
From your last post it seems you consider mid-low 70's to be a coldwater tank. Coldwater tanks are usually 70 or below, anything above is warm, and 75 is in tropical range.
I still disagree about kuhli loaches. 24 inches of fish, no matter
how slim or low on the bioload is still much too much for a 10g tank.

I've rarely seen kuhli loaches utilize their whole tank, so IMO they are ok in a 10 gallon, though I wouldn't mind putting some in a larger tank if I had one available. The tank isn't overloaded as far as water quality so that's not a problem, and they have a much easier time finding food since they don't have to search the whole tank bottom. All they really do is play in the bubble curtain and lay on plants anyway, so they seem happy, since this is the same behavior that most kuhlis exhibit.
There are some fish, such as my anostomus ternetzi, that though they add little bioload, it would be absolute abuse to keep them in a small tank. He needs a lot of water flow and a long stretch of aquarium to dart about, so even the 30 gallon is a bit small for him though he's not much longer than a kuhli loach. However, I don't think kuhlis are in the same class as him. They handle the tank space in the 10 quite well and I feel they are fine where they are.

As for people keeping their houses at 72 ...brrrrr.
I keep my house at 78 in the winter, and it never drops below that
in the summer.
It would be impossible for me to keep a fish that could not
live below 76-78F, as my house simply does not go that low,
and I would need to invest hundreds of dollars on a chiller
to get below that

Unfortunately this is what has to be done if you keep your house warm and you keep certain fish and want them to thrive. I would put the majority of goldfish in this catagory because they become prone to parasites and other problems when kept in warm water for prolonged periods of time. We will probably have to spend the money on a chiller for our native fish in the summer, but this is the price we pay for keeping their aquarium enviroment corret so that they stay healthy. Of course high temeratures won't inherently kill them in the wild, but they do get parasites in the summer, which can be deadly. Though we could treat them chemically, it's stressful for them, and we would rather prevent it as much as possible.

Sneaky
December 26th, 2006, 03:12 AM
I've rarely seen kuhli loaches utilize their whole tank, so IMO they are ok in a 10 gallon

I keep my 5 kuhli loaches in a 75g, and I assure you they are constantly
exploring and zipping about the bottom at high speed.

If they have the space available, they will use it.
Keeping them in a 10g, while allowing them to survive,
wont allow them to thrive, in my opinion.

From your last post it seems you consider mid-low 70's to be a coldwater tank

No, actually the actual specific standard for a coldwater tank
is any tank with a temperature 76F or below, all the way
down to the 50's in temperature.

Tropical tanks are tanks with temps above 76F, all the way up to
94F for some specific amazonian species.

MyBirdIsEvil
December 26th, 2006, 01:18 PM
I keep my 5 kuhli loaches in a 75g, and I assure you they are constantly
exploring and zipping about the bottom at high speed.

That's your opinion based on your own fish, so I won't debate that.

No, actually the actual specific standard for a coldwater tank
is any tank with a temperature 76F or below, all the way
down to the 50's in temperature.

Tropical tanks are tanks with temps above 76F, all the way up to
94F for some specific amazonian species.

Specific standard? Unfortunately there is no specific standard. Many definitions depend on what region of the world you live in, and who you gather information from, so that's why we run into these kind arguments. What are your sources?
This is from wikipedia, I admit not the most reliable source(I would much rather show info from reputable books), but it is an example of the definition me and most hobbyists go by. Listing everything below 76 degrees as coldwater is way too vague for my tastes. Between 70 and 76 is considered moderate for many people, while the definition below is considered coldwater.
Coldwater fish, in the context of aquariums, refers to fish species that prefer cooler water temperatures than tropical fish, typically below 20 C (70 F). Some examples are koi and goldfish. These species tend to grow more slowly, live longer than fish that live in warmer waters and are generally felt to be easier to keep.

It says typically, because I guess it's not a strict definition, but it is the one me and many others choose to go by. Still, the definition of coldwater doesn't change the fact that most goldfish do best in temperatures below 70.

In your defense here is an article that suggests your definition for coldwater:
Cold-water aquarium fish are those fish that are suitable for use in unheated aquariums with room-temperature water, as opposed to warm-water fish, which require tropical-temperature water to survive.

But as I said, that definition is vague, which is why many people choose to use the one previously posted. That's why I suggest people buy books SPECIFICALLY devoted to their species of fish. You can find information on the internet supporting ANY view, wrong or right, so no one should just go to a message board or website and follow their suggestions.

Btw, I'm not trying to argue with you just for the sake of arguing, but to give the largest amount of info possible.

katwoman
March 9th, 2007, 05:21 PM
hello,I have 2 goldfish well myn are onley small so i dont now about what size tank you need .:sorry:. But you were on about gold fish so i though i would say somthing
:sorry: i have no ifno about a tank

Sneaky
March 9th, 2007, 07:25 PM
Hi there,
Goldfish of any type require as a minimum 30 gallons for the first
goldfish and 10g per additional goldfish.
They can be kept in smaller tanks when younger, but like say you have a 10 gallon tank, the goldies could be kept in there until they reach about 3 inches. At this point they should be upgraded to a 20g, where they could stay until they reach about 5-6 inches.
After this they should be moved to 30 gallons or larger for further growth.
The smallest of the fancy goldfish (ones that have a little round body) grows to be 8 inches long. The biggest grow up to 14 inches long.
The long single tail goldfish like comets and common goldfish reach 30 inches in length and are only suitable for a pond.
You can find out what size your tank is by measuring it.
10g tanks tend to be 20 inches long, 10 inches wide, and 12 inches tall.
20g tanks come in 2 sizes, 24x12x16 and 30x12x12
5g tanks are 16x8x10.
2.5 g tanks are 12x6x8.

The minimum tank size for 2 adult goldfish of any fancy variety would be 30-40 gallons.
30g tanks are 36x18x12. If your tank is smaller than this, its too small for 2 goldfish.

Goldfish reach maturity size wise in about 2 years.
They average 5-6 inches of growth per year.
Goldfish live to be 30 years old.

Here is a website that shows excellent pics of many types of common goldfish, so you may find out what type your fish is.
Some of the info is wrong on this site, so take with a grain of salt.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/ftypes.html

MyBirdIsEvil
March 10th, 2007, 04:04 AM
I completely agree with sneaky but I'd also like to add on because inexperienced people often assume that the minimum recommended tank size of 30g (plus 10 g per fish) automatically means they'll live comfortably in that size tank.

I think it was stated earlier in the thread iirc, but gold fish produce a large amount of waste. While they may be able to have room physically in a 30g tank you should always watch your water parameters closely (ammonia/nitrite/nitrates). Personally I do this even with my tropicals, but I think it's even more important with goldfish as they can need a large amount of filtration.
Goldfish in minimum sized tanks also should get plenty of water changes, because even though your biological filtration may keep up with the ammonia and nitrites, nitrates (which aren't eliminated by your biological bacteria) and other organic wastes can build quickly. These can be detrimental to your fishes health.

Goldfish are much more tolerant to poor water conditions than other fish, and may even appear just fine physically, but poor water conditions can go unnoticed and drastically shorten their lifespan, so it's something to watch.

Always keep in mind that these tank size and stocking rules can vary GREATLY depending on your filtration, how often you do water changes, how often you clean/maintain your filters (and filters can sometimes become dirty and clogged QUICKLY with goldfish), feeding levels, siphoning, etc.
That's why it's imperative that you watch your water parameters closely to determine if your tank size and filtration is sufficient for your fish, or if you need to do more water changes and maintenance.

That said, you'll have to determine what kind of goldfish you have, to figure out whether or not your tanks are or will remain suitable for them.
If you measure your tanks height/width/depth we can tell you how many gallons it is also. Goldfish also require a tank with a normal or large footprint, so tall tanks and most hexes (exceptions being abnormally dimensioned hexes and some flatbacks), don't meet the 30g requirements since they'd have to hold a much larger amount of water to have an adequate footprint.

Sorry if I lost you here on any of the details.
This is written assuming your tank is already fully cycled and established (if you need info on this I'm sure either of us can provide it), since I'm not sure how experienced in fishkeeping you are.

I always tend to write too much when it comes to fish :rolleyes:

There's also a fair amount of info in the rest of the thread if you ignore our silly argument on the definition of cold/warm :p