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How Long Does A Doggy Stay In Heat

Lukka'sma
December 11th, 2006, 06:10 PM
Lukka has at least 7-10 more days of bleeding before that stage of her heat is over. My question is, how long after that will other female dogs only be interested in smelling her private area. No fun for her to be around female dogs at this point as all the smelling ticks her off. Am I looking at day's, weeks?
On the advice of three Caucasian Ovcharka breeders that I have talked to we will not have her spayed until full maturity has been reached which will take two years.

jawert1
December 11th, 2006, 06:49 PM
I guess I'm not entirely sure unless you're going to breed her, why you would wait to have her spayed? Most dogs do just fine growth-wise being spayed prior or just after their first heat, which can last 2-3 weeks. Seriously, I hope you reconsider leaving her unspayed for all that time, it can cause some really awful and life threatening health issues.

hazelrunpack
December 11th, 2006, 08:08 PM
The total hormonal flux takes about 2 months. After the heat cycle, as I understand it, the bitch's body reacts as if it were pregnant, whether she is or not--this is why false pregnancies are so common and why there is no definitive (at least there wasn't a couple years ago) blood or urine pregnancy test for dogs. Whether she's preggers or not, the hormones cycle as if she were, until what would be the time of parturition, some 62 (if I'm remembering right?) days past the end of the heat.

However, I suspect that it won't take that long for other females to lose interest. Probably, once the bleeding is done, she won't smell nearly as intriguing. I'd say a matter of days after the discharge is over.

You should be aware, though, that some bitches are fertile later in their cycle than what would be considered normal, and even a late tie can result in an unplanned pregnancy. So you'll have to be very, very careful to keep her away from males until you're absolutely sure she's no longer fertile.

I'm a little surprised that the breeders counseled waiting to spay until age 2. Do Ovcharkas tend to have joint problems or other health issues related to growth? Not trying to get argumentative--just curious about the rationale... :o

LibbyP
December 11th, 2006, 08:45 PM
I'm a little surprised that the breeders counseled waiting to spay until age 2. Do Ovcharkas tend to have joint problems or other health issues related to growth? Not trying to get argumentative--just curious about the rationale... :o

Thank you Hazel, that was also very informative to me as I have never had a female/ male that was not altered.
Seeing as Lukka's is a giant breed, it is my understanding that it is better to wait until they have finished growing regardless of being male or female, at around age 2 (just my understanding :shrug: ) Seeing as Libby came to me as an adult already spayed, I have nothing to compare her growth to, but I'm learning as much as I can regarding feeding puppy food or just adult, supplements s/n etc... for my next gentle giant(??)

Prin
December 11th, 2006, 08:48 PM
But to me diet is far more important than the sex hormones (as far as growth goes). :shrug:

LibbyP
December 11th, 2006, 08:59 PM
But to me diet is far more important than the sex hormones (as far as growth goes). :shrug:

(I) think there are many factors to raising a healthy giant, learning/knowing as much as you possible can about your breed of choice so you can make the best choices possible, food (IMO) is just one of them, everyone must remember giants don't grow at the same rate as a 'normal' dog, too much of a good thing can cause more harm than good. (JMO :shrug: )

mafiaprincess
December 11th, 2006, 09:17 PM
Lady took her dog to agility during all weeks of her heat.. They had been friendly prior to her heat...
Cider had 4 weeks of issues over that girl in heat.. and since technically changes can be 2 months leading to a heat.. then a heat.. and 2 months coming out before 'normality' is reached.. while this girl is long out of heat now, we are having more issues than we were before.

Just because your dog isn't actually in season, doesn't mean that there isn't something 'different' prior and post that may make other dog's wary or unhappy. Just watch interactions really.

Lise
December 12th, 2006, 03:25 PM
Maybe the reason your breeder said to wait is because the puberty can have effect on the growth plates closing.Some vets and breeders are saying that pediatric spays and neuters can cause problems for giant breeds and are recommending doing it later.

technodoll
December 12th, 2006, 03:30 PM
yes with giant breeds, if you can wait, then it's recommended to do so. also early spays and neuters typically don't achieve the adult chest width needed to support all that body weight. The narrow chest, in turn, often results in turned-out front legs as compensation. that can lead to other othopedic problems later in life. Mind you, poor breeding can also give this end result whether the dog is intact or not!

jawert1
December 12th, 2006, 03:53 PM
Thanks for the education gang :) I never knew that giant breeds had different specs when it came to growth vs. spaying/neutering, so this is my "learned something new today"! :D

Prin
December 12th, 2006, 05:39 PM
I dunno. There are two schools of thought about it, and I'm still a believer in the earlier spay and neuter (6-8 months max). I just would rather- if it actually came to that- having duck feet (even though none of my large breeds ever had that) than having a dog with serious behavioral issues.:shrug: We had Boo neutered fairly early and it took him a while to get his chest but he has it. :shrug:

LibbyP
December 12th, 2006, 05:50 PM
I dunno. There are two schools of thought about it, and I'm still a believer in the earlier spay and neuter (6-8 months max). I just would rather- if it actually came to that- having duck feet (even though none of my large breeds ever had that) than having a dog with serious behavioral issues.:shrug: We had Boo neutered fairly early and it took him a while to get his chest but he has it. :shrug:

I trying to understand, :shrug: If you know your dog and it is not showing any 'serious behavioral issues' why is it assumed that this dog will 'change' its personality if not neutered/spayed early? I don't think it has anything to do with having duck feet :o (I know this was just an example :D ) it has to do with the best possible 'healthy physically/mentally sound adult'. Lukka'sma is NOT saying she's not going to have it done, it's been suggested by her mentors just to wait is all until she is fully developed.

Prin
December 12th, 2006, 06:01 PM
And all I'm saying is watching the calcium levels in the food, as well as the kinds of activity the dog is allowed, as well as the surfaces the dog walks/plays on are more important. The newer science points to earlier neutering, but we'll always have these old school vets and breeders pushing late neutering.

Sure, maybe not every dog is optimally done at 6 months, but waiting till after development isn't worth the risk.

8 out of 10 bites in the US are from intact dogs. Why?

LibbyP
December 12th, 2006, 06:15 PM
8 out of 10 bites in the US are from intact dogs. Why?

Yes those stats may be true but we are in Canada, ~ not proper socialization as puppies/young adults could be one factor along with a number of other things.

I guess we will agree to disagree on this one :shrug: Lots of factors is all :shrug:

Prin
December 12th, 2006, 06:25 PM
And lots of reasons for neutering early too. ;)

Frenchy
December 12th, 2006, 09:08 PM
and I'm still a believer in the earlier spay and neuter (6-8 months max).

Me too, you never know when an accident might happen ....

technodoll
December 12th, 2006, 09:24 PM
i think it takes a very responsible and dedicated owner to keep an intact dog, not everyone can do it with success (keeping the dog out of trouble and out of harm's way and NO PUPPIES). so yes the word should be spread on early spaying and neutering, in as many cases as possible!

also health considerations should be understood, the older a female is when she gets spayed, the more her chances increase to develop mammary cancer. for some males, it can be aggression issues. all this needs to be weighed against the structural/ orthopedic health of the adult dog.

we chose to get maika spayed before her first heat, and keep dakotah intact until maturity. reading now on all the health benefits of keeping male hormones intact (newer studies show less cancers & overall health problems), well it weighs in the balance, we might not get him neutered at all if it keeps him healthier for a longer time. BUT i would not recommend this for most other people :shrug:

Prin, the stats i read on dog bites in the US say "Canines not spayed or neutered are three times more likely to bite than sterilized ones." - this goes for both sexes. although i can understand dog-to-dog aggression in intact individuals, i'm not sure what hormones have to do with bites to humans. poor socialisation? being chained? teasing children? the "stats" are so muddled and varied and inconclusive (most dog bites do not get reported), it's a dangerous assumption to rely on these numbers IMO... :confused:

BMDLuver
December 12th, 2006, 09:31 PM
hmmmmm... where to wade in to this discussion.....

As most of you are aware...... I do extra large breed rescue..... I alter males as soon as there testicles have both dropped. So that can be as early as 8 weeks. I spay females at 8 weeks regardless. Why? Because I have seen nothing to support that waiting makes a difference.

In fact, I did wait until 6 months of age to Neuter my own boy Patch. Why? Because our vet felt it was not safe to do him before, not because of bone growth ,weight or development issues but because he would not have done well under anesthetic prior to that time due to early health issues with lungs etc...

Patch is huge right now...... he is very tall and is starting to fill out now...... he's a Berner, so they grow tall quickly, fill out slowly. He's weighing in at 120lbs presently at 18 months of age... his front legs are in no way turned in nor is his chest disproportionate. Here's a photo of him attached so you can see he's the way a Berner should be.

So I guess my position would be that I see no reason to wait. I don't see any difference in size when waiting. They are a product of their breeding and what will be will be regardless of early neuter or spay.....

I've done 175 this year so that should be argument enough that it's ok to do them early.

I'm not saying that everyone should run out and do it, just that I see no point in waiting and the recovery time is next to nothing when they are babies. Also, in the larger breeds, waiting means they run the risk of Blue balls as males during recovery and have a scrotum that although empty never really goes fully away with shrinkage. So its not a pretty sight to see a Dane that is neutered at 7 years of age from the hind end if you get my drift. :D

Prin
December 12th, 2006, 09:35 PM
Yey Patch! He's soo good-looking.:)

Hunter's_owner
December 12th, 2006, 09:37 PM
have a scrotum that although empty never really goes fully away with shrinkage. So its not a pretty sight to see a Dane that is neutered at 7 years of age from the hind end if you get my drift. :D

My goodness this actually happens:eek:
We got Hunter neutered at 6 months, and when he came home I was very surprised to see the scrotum there...with nothing in it. I never seen a just neutered male before, or never noticed that area. I couldn't wait for it to disappear. I can't imagine it not going away at all:o Thanks for the heads up, that is reason enough there for me to neuter even sooner, :o (don't want any of that hanging around:D )

I wanted to add that Patch is absolutely gorgeous:)

technodoll
December 12th, 2006, 09:40 PM
oh my! what a beautiful dog :cloud9:

i will just add that berners are not "giants" like st-bernards, danes, mastiffs and the like... 150lbs+ dogs at maturity. perhaps that has something to do with it? :shrug: my breeder did say she noticed, in her 20 years of experience, that males neutered at a younger age did not develop as wide a head and chest as the ones who had testosterone longer in their systems as they matured (only speaking of akitas here).

either way, i am PRO early spaying and neutering, i just wish it would make a dent in the overflowing shelters though :(

BMDLuver
December 12th, 2006, 09:58 PM
i will just add that berners are not "giants" like st-bernards, danes, mastiffs and the like... 150lbs+ dogs at maturity. perhaps that has something to do with it? :shrug: (

Beg to differ:

AKC Standards as follows:

Berner Male 25-271/2", Female 23-26"
Newf Male 28", Female 26"
Dane Male 30-32", Female 28-30"
Mastiff Male 30", Female 271/2"

weights on dogs in rescue we've dealt with regularly:
Berner Males average 90lbs-160lbs, particuliarly if swiss bred
Newfs average 90lbs-180lbs
Danes average 110lbs-210lbs
Mastiffs average 90lbs-170lbs

So really I do think that Berners fit in the giant category not so much by the height but by their sheer body weight. They are solid and square, sturdy breeds, not the long n lanky of the Dane.

Just an idea or thought process I guess.

technodoll
December 12th, 2006, 10:14 PM
goodness! i was going on the breed standard: http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/bernese.htm

Height: Male: From 24.5 in to 27.5 in (62-70 cm) at the shoulder;
Female: From 22.5 in to 26 in (58-66 cm) at the shoulder.
Ideal size for males is: 66-68 cm; for females: 60-63 cm

Weight: Males: Generally between 85 and 120 lbs (39-55 kg)
Females: Generally between 65 and 100 lbs (30-45 kg)


i've never seen an oversized berner (over 130 lbs), neither on the street or at dog shows, so that's what i was basing my comment on... the breed standard and not exceptions :o

what weight would you say your rescues averages, BMD? assuming they are at an ideal, healthy weight. it seems i live on a different planet and i want to be on the one with the big doggies! i :love: big doggies :D

BMDLuver
December 13th, 2006, 07:06 AM
lol..... TD

Most of the smaller berners we get are around 80lbs, moving upwards to 130lbs. Because I'm somewhat active with the Berner Clubs etc.... we get to see a lot more of the swiss stock which is on the much larger end of the scale in some cases.

Of course, that's not to say I feel that Berners are giants, more that their body weight can move them in to the giant category which in turn puts them along the same lines as some of the other big breeds. That's all, lol.

Sam for example is a Berner, his full markings are showing through now, and he should be around 120-130 when done. He probably would have been more if we'd been lucky enough to have met him around 6 months when his less than stellar food offerings would have started affecting development. From 6 months to 18 months the food has a lot to do with development.

:eek: I've gone way off the original topic, I apologize for that.

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 09:46 AM
no it's me who also pushed this thread off topic... sorry :sorry:

bmd you are lucky to be surrounded by such beautiful, gentle giants... who can resist a berner? :cloud9: and thank you for the "edumacation" on the world of the swiss stock! i had forgotten that side of the equation... so do you see many swiss mountain dogs (vs bernese)? they are huge! and quite rare in this neck of the woods, if i'm not mistaken? not easy to keep in the city, they are more "farm dogs"? :o

(again sorry for the threadjack... i promise to stop!) :o

Prin
December 13th, 2006, 02:12 PM
Ok, to bring it back on topic, what about the OP's dog? Is it a GIANT? :shrug:

LibbyP
December 13th, 2006, 02:26 PM
I think she would fall in line with the Berners

25 - 28 inches
99 - 150+ lbs

With that said I would put Berners in with the Giant group (JMO :shrug: )

~michelle~
December 13th, 2006, 03:22 PM
i would be safe since 3 breeders (i am assuming repuatable breeders since your breed is so rare and your a smart cookie lukkas mom) have recommended you wait, i would wait. i would take the professionals opinion over the forums. and hormones play a vital role in growth and development and since they are a giant breed it would make sense to wait longer. you want to make sure the skeletal and muscular system stay in proportion with the organ growth. Plus i know Lukkas mom is being careful while she is in heat and keeping her on the downlo for now

Prin
December 13th, 2006, 03:25 PM
So in the breeders vs science argument, or even the breeders vs rescues argument, the breeders always win. Good to know for future reference.:thumbs up ;)

jawert1
December 13th, 2006, 03:47 PM
“The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men / Gang aft a-gley.” (Robert Burns)

and 2 years is a very long time to wait :/

~michelle~
December 13th, 2006, 04:36 PM
prin, there is science that proves that hormones are vital for gowth and development in all mammals. i was just saying if lukkasmom got that advice from a reputable breeder and her vet agrees it is probably the best course of action. i am not saying the professional is always right but when she has talked to several i would rest assured it is sound advice.
however this is not a thread to debate on whether or not lukkasmom should get her dog spayed immediately she simply asked a question as to how long the heat will last. LUKKASMOM is being very responsible.
if you further wish to dicuss the issue with me you can PM me, lets not turn every thread in to a debate.

BMDLuver
December 13th, 2006, 07:32 PM
no it's me who also pushed this thread off topic... sorry :sorry:

bmd you are lucky to be surrounded by such beautiful, gentle giants... who can resist a berner? :cloud9: and thank you for the "edumacation" on the world of the swiss stock! i had forgotten that side of the equation... so do you see many swiss mountain dogs (vs bernese)? they are huge! and quite rare in this neck of the woods, if i'm not mistaken? not easy to keep in the city, they are more "farm dogs"? :o

(again sorry for the threadjack... i promise to stop!) :o

lmao..... I'm not very clear I guess. I mean the swiss bred Bernese Mountain Dog as opposed to the Canadian bred Bernese Mountain Dog. The swiss are truer to size and much better quality. Which is why so many good breeders import from Switzerland when they are looking for a top notch Sire etc...

i was just saying if lukkasmom got that advice from a reputable breeder and her vet agrees it is probably the best course of action. i am not saying the professional is always right but when she has talked to several i would rest assured it is sound advice.

I would agree with this being sure that the breeder is indeed topnotch. Most breeders know their generations backwards and forwards so they can make recommendations accordingly. If they are planning to show the dog then they will quite often wait to see the final result while showing along the way. But dogs for companionship purposes they normally recommend altering at 6 months. It's personal choice really.

Scott_B
December 15th, 2006, 06:32 AM
Our vet suggested the same. Best to wait. But they also did say we should review the pros and cons. I read a study a month or so that said that HD was more common in larger breeds when altered to soon as the testosterone is what closes the growth plates. If you deny that testosterone, then it takes longer for the growth plates to close, so you get a taller, and not as stalky dog. This makes it tougher on the hips.

Here is one study that has some science for Prin :p

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

It also has some other interesting points..

Behavioral Considerations
The study that identified a higher incidence of cranial cruciate ligament rupture in spayed or neutered dogs also identified an increased incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered early.(5) Further, the study that identified a higher incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs neutered or spayed before 5 1/2 months also showed that early age gonadectomy was associated with an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.(6) A recent report of the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.(12)

bogwog
December 16th, 2006, 03:41 PM
Our last dog was a giant breed. Shortly after spaying at 6 months (oh how I wish we had waited) she developed spay incontinence. At 10 years old she died of bone cancer.

With our new dog we expressed our concern about the spay incontinence to our new vet. She said that for larger dogs she likes to wait until they have been through 1 heat to spay, so we waited. This dog is only 56 pounds but we thought why chance it? The vet said that, although there have been no studies done to support this, her theory is that this delay may allow their urogenital tract to mature more fully, and she also only removes the ovaries rather than the ovaries and uterus. She said that, just like women who have had a hysterectomy, sometimes the bladder will tip and there will be less control.

There has also been some research done into early neutering and the chance of bone cancer later in life. A study was done on Rottweilers whose results were that "age at gonadectomy significantly influenced risk for bone sarcoma. Male and female dogs that underwent gonadectomy before 1 year of age had an approximate one in four lifetime risk for bone sarcoma and were significantly more likely to develop bone sarcoma than dogs that were sexually intact. Test for trend showed a highly significant inverse dose-response relationship between duration of lifetime gonadal exposure and incidence rate of bone sarcoma."
Here is a link to the study
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/11/11/1434

I realize that one study does not mean this is a fact, but it is something for large dog owners to take into consideration.

bogwog
December 16th, 2006, 03:53 PM
Sorry, I guess I got off topic with my last post. I did a lot of reading after we lost our big girl.

When Squeak went through her 1 and only heat I gave her liquid chlorophyll to help neutralize her scent. I found out about it on the Great Dane Lady's site http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/controlling_odors_when_your_bitch_is_in_season.htm

I can't really say if it worked but I really had no problems with her although I walked her on a leash, at times around other dogs.

Lukka'sma
December 16th, 2006, 04:26 PM
Neutering prior to beginning of estrus does reduce risk of mammary cancer in females, but it also significantly increases risk for urinary incontinence in bitches which predisposes these bitches to diethylstilbestrol (DES) dependency in some instances, DES is not always effective at controlling incontinence . Though with lesser risk compared to females, early neutering also increases risk of urethral sphincter incontinence in males.

With regard to cancer, spayed females have a four-times greater risk for developing cardiac hemangiosarcomas (vascular tumors) compared to intact females (neutered males also show a significant increase in risk for these tumors compared to intact males.) Additionally, both neutered males and females have a two-fold greater risk for developing bone tumors (osteosarcoma) compared to intact males and females.

Some evidence suggests that early neutering may also predispose to endocrine disorders later in life (Panciera). Furthermore, there is also an indication that early neutering (because absence of sex hormones delays maturation of osteoclasts and thus results in delayed closing of the growth plates in the long bones) may predispose to increased risk for various orthopedic disorders such as cruciate ligament disease. Also some evidence suggests that there is a correlation between increased time for growth plate closure and incidence of Hip Dysplasia.

If one conducted a research of the literature of the detrimental effects on physiological development associated with sex hormone deficiencies during adolescent development in any species other than the dog and cat, one will find a wealth of literature stressing the importance of sex hormones for sound physiological, endocrine and metabolic development. Additionally, if one examines the scientific research that reports the benefits of early neutering in absence of any side-effects in dogs, one will discover that the methodology of these studies are designed in very specific ways to assure that outcome in neutering is presented in a favorable light. This does not mean that the data is biased; this simply means that the comparisons made do not provide for adequate interpretation of long term effects of neutering.

In light of this, though it is understandable for vets/breeders to urge dog owners to neuter their pets early with regard to the greater good (i.e. reducing risk of accidental breeding), the physiological soundness of the individual dog should take precedence over any other issues.

Being a responsible owner such as myself I will not allow my dog to become pregnant prior to spaying at two years of age.

Prin
December 16th, 2006, 09:43 PM
Neutering prior to beginning of estrus does reduce risk of mammary cancer in females, but it also significantly increases risk for urinary incontinence in bitches which predisposes these bitches to diethylstilbestrol (DES) dependency in some instances, DES is not always effective at controlling incontinence . Though with lesser risk compared to females, early neutering also increases risk of urethral sphincter incontinence in males.

Sorry, but I just have to correct this part because I have a dog with spay incontinence. Most vets don't even give DES to new cases anymore. They give Propalin, which is non hormonal and is very effective. And IMO, if all your dog has is spay incontinence, you are VERY lucky. It's very easy to treat these days, and isn't even a concern. And in all the spayed bitches I know (which is very, very many) Jemma has always been the only one with it. YES the risk is higher than in intact bitches, but the risk is soooo tiny anyway and the problem is so minor too.

As for the rest, I just don't believe that the difference in bone development is significant enough to offset the risks of not neutering (as I've said before). Saying X's chances of getting a disease is higher than Y's is only significant depending on the actual stats. :shrug:

Lukka'sma
December 17th, 2006, 08:10 AM
It is quite obvious where you stand on this issue, fine by me, in no way am I trying to sway you to my side of this issue.
Castration weakens all dogs to some degree, it produces marked changes over the normal. Head shape etc. I believe that dogs need their hormones to grow and develop properly.

bogwog
December 17th, 2006, 03:41 PM
Sorry, but I just have to correct this part because I have a dog with spay incontinence. Most vets don't even give DES to new cases anymore. They give Propalin, which is non hormonal and is very effective. And IMO, if all your dog has is spay incontinence, you are VERY lucky. It's very easy to treat these days, and isn't even a concern. And in all the spayed bitches I know (which is very, very many) Jemma has always been the only one with it. YES the risk is higher than in intact bitches, but the risk is soooo tiny anyway and the problem is so minor too.


The dog I had with spay incontinence did not respond well to Propalin. They also tried a few other things including DES and even testosterone to build the muscle, which made her rather aggressive. Propalin worked only slightly and the amount required to have any noticeable effect caused heavy panting and restlessness which did not go away even after a period of adjustment. So we simply had to deal with it for 10 years. She was a very large indoor dog. Dealing with it was not fun, for her or us.

Prin
December 17th, 2006, 08:52 PM
I'm sorry, that must not have been fun. But how many dogs do you know like her?

bogwog
December 17th, 2006, 09:39 PM
Only two, but one is a small dog and I believe the Propil works quite well for her. The other is older and is not treated. I don't know many large dogs though, and I don't believe it's very common in the smaller breeds, more over 50 lbs. I did read recently that the incidence of spay incontinence is on the rise.

My point was not that it is common but that if there was even a slight possibility that it could have been avoided by waiting through heat or two, I would have waited. Unfortunately I was not well enough informed of the risk at the time (my own fault). Frankly though, the link between early neuter and bone cancer is more worrying to me. It is a major killer of large and giant breeds.

technodoll
December 17th, 2006, 09:51 PM
we all want to do the "right thing" for both our dogs and the society they live in... making the judgement call is not always so easy, or so clear-cut. for every Study A there is a Study B to refute it, so yeah... what to do?

in our case we listened to the breeder who said if we could wait until dakotah was mature to get him neutered, then to do so. then our holistic vet said to keep him intact, period, as dogs need the normal hormonal balance to lead longer, healthier lives, which got us to research this issue more. now we doubt to ever get him neutered if he stays the happy, stable dog he is now.

for our bitch maika, we heard too many instances of mammary cancer increasing after just one heat, plus with an intact male in the house there was NO way we could take the chance of them accidentally mating. So we had her spayed at 6 months, before her first heat. we are hoping that her excellent diet (raw since age 3 months) will help keep any cancers and other health problems at bay, i know you can't control everything but if this can help, then we're doing it. No spay incontinence and it has made her very sweet and sociable with dogs of all creeds, which is a BIG plus for us.

so yeah... tough decisions, as long as whatever one chooses is done responsibly and with knowing what you're getting into, it's all good IMO :pawprint:

RaYne
December 18th, 2006, 09:43 AM
I'm kinda in the same boat but I haven't really discussed it here since I know how the majority of you feel regarding intact dogs. Since most people with intact dogs come here posting about pregnancy or 'My dog is in labor what I do?' So I do understand completely.

I have often wondered though.. if people require hormones to properly develop.. why wouldn't dogs?

That said.. Bubba is 22 months old and not yet neutered. He has some digestive issues and is still underweight, and I honestly don't feel comfortable putting him under the knife until he's 100% physically. He is finally putting weight on now and I really haven't done anything different feeding wise. I honestly wonder if those hormones are in fact helping because they have kicked in over the past month. But he will be neutered once he reaches a healthy weight, whether that be a month from now or 6 months from now he will be done eventually.

My dilemma is Lola.. The plan thus far is to let her mature before spaying her AS LONG as Bubba is neutered before she has her first heat. I know I am responsible enough to keep them seperate if need be and prevent an accidental pregnancy. But we live with my parents (long story there, lol) and since I can't be home 24/7, it isn't right to put the responsibility on them. And to be quite honest I don't trust them with that responsibility but don't tell them that. LOL

Giant breeds mature sooo slowly. Bubba didn't even know he was a 'man' until 21 months old. Even now though he's still very puppyish mentally.

I agree with TD as long as you know what you are in for and are fully prepared for it. I see no problem with waiting.

Scott_B
December 18th, 2006, 10:15 AM
Thats the thing. You really have to weigh the pros and cons, and look at each individual dog and situation. You also have to be a diligent owner. If your dogs in heat, don't take her to the park. Thats just being dumb. So you have to be a smart owner.

jawert1
December 18th, 2006, 04:48 PM
in our case we listened to the breeder who said if we could wait until dakotah was mature to get him neutered, then to do so. then our holistic vet said to keep him intact, period, as dogs need the normal hormonal balance to lead longer, healthier lives, which got us to research this issue more. now we doubt to ever get him neutered if he stays the happy, stable dog he is now.
:pawprint:

I'm sorry TD, I don't mean to jump on this, but it rather concerns me when a vet would knowingly give advice to not neuter a dog who isn't going to be shown (last I knew you weren't 100% certain on that) or bred. Does it not concern you that Dakotah's pulling (aggression towards another dog if I recall correctly) injured your back pretty severly? Or that he's excessively dominant at the dog park to the point of being almost a liability to you and your hubby with other dogs, males both neutered and not? I know you want the best for Dakotah, but at some point your health, well being, desire to not have to get in the middle of a dog fight or being liable for injury or death to another dog needs to figure in.

Sorry for the threadjack, I just worry that on top of the usual concerns we all have regarding the pet population (not the topic here I know), that this information, though well intentioned for learning purposes, may lead to adverse consequence.

Prin
December 18th, 2006, 05:23 PM
Bubba didn't even know he was a 'man' until 21 months old. What does that mean? :confused:

Accidents are just that: accidents. As long as you have an intact dog around, no matter how careful you are, accidents happen.

And what I would like to know is I know so many large breed dog owners who can barely handle their dog now (physically), so why would you, if neutering does stunt growth or induce growth or whatever (which I don't believe for a second), leave your dog intact in hopes that it would get BIGGER? So you could have MORE dog to not be able to handle? I don't get it. I really don't. If that's the reason for leaving them (for some people it's a large part of it), then why the hey would you want that? Just don't get it.

technodoll
December 18th, 2006, 07:25 PM
I'm sorry TD, I don't mean to jump on this, but it rather concerns me when a vet would knowingly give advice to not neuter a dog who isn't going to be shown (last I knew you weren't 100% certain on that) or bred. Does it not concern you that Dakotah's pulling (aggression towards another dog if I recall correctly) injured your back pretty severly? Or that he's excessively dominant at the dog park to the point of being almost a liability to you and your hubby with other dogs, males both neutered and not?

well you could call Dr Guindon and ask him why he's against neutering... he has his reasons, we have ours (for our boy) :o

and no it was not another dog that led to the Mighty Leash Jerk and my back injury, it was a cat darting from beneath a parked car on a dark evening... otherwise he doesn't pull anymore now with his harness and alot of training. For the record, dakotah is one of the LEAST aggressive dogs in the park (there are some nasty neutered males in there btw) but he is a dominant male and cutting off his balls will not change that one bit, neutering is not a lobotomy, LOL!

Also you need to understand that Akitas are, in general, aggressive towards same-sex dogs no matter if the Akita is intact or not. We are fortunate that dakotah is a VERY mellow and tolerant guy so that is why we're ok with the way he is, complete and the way he was born :p he's not causing us any more troubles than if he was neutered. his health and well-being come first, we know what we're doing and we're ok with that even if others aren't. Just for the record though, i am FOR neutering! just not for our boy. and i hope my position will be respected on this issue and left alone, let's concentrate on all the idiots in the world who are actually breeding their dogs eh? :rolleyes:

~michelle~
December 18th, 2006, 07:41 PM
ok OBVIOUSLY hormones play a part in development, potential for disease, or not. intact females/male more risk of diseases A, B and C nonintact females/male at risk for diseases D, E, &F. induvidual dogs need to be looked at past, family history (if known) whats a higher risk and make the best choice for the dog
I think as a forum we need to be respectful of all points of view. the people we are currently discussing with who do have intact dogs (TD and lukka'sma) are responsible pet owners. they try their hardest to avoid any accidental breedings and have been successful thus far. i respect both of the views but rescues have their agendas, as do breeders, vets, and induvidual owners. I myself have all neuters dogs, WE all do things that other owners wouldnt agree with (ie having dogs off leash in non fenced in areas, feeding choices, and training styles.just as examples)
we need to promote education and respect we do not always need to be RIGHT that is not what healthy debate is about. it is about listening to and respecting all points of view and allowing others to come up with the solutions that suit them.

technodoll
December 18th, 2006, 07:47 PM
michelle, thank you for that post :grouphug:

did i mention my next dog will be a rescue? :o all because of you guys... so yeah, respect & learning is all what this place is about, IMO. :pawprint:

SarahLynn123
December 18th, 2006, 07:49 PM
just to bring up the incontinence issue, my GSD was spayed at 3 years old and she is incontinent. Propalin works great for her, but I wouldn't depend on waiting to spay as a sure thing your dog wont be incontinent!

~michelle~
December 18th, 2006, 07:51 PM
noprob.....
:highfive: on looking in to rescue.:D :party:

Scott_B
December 18th, 2006, 08:21 PM
What does that mean? :confused:

Accidents are just that: accidents. As long as you have an intact dog around, no matter how careful you are, accidents happen.

And what I would like to know is I know so many large breed dog owners who can barely handle their dog now (physically), so why would you, if neutering does stunt growth or induce growth or whatever (which I don't believe for a second), leave your dog intact in hopes that it would get BIGGER? So you could have MORE dog to not be able to handle? I don't get it. I really don't. If that's the reason for leaving them (for some people it's a large part of it), then why the hey would you want that? Just don't get it.

I think that was explained pretty well in my post Prin, and as well in others. It isnt just so they get bigger, its so they develop to the size they are required to carry that girth. If they dont get the wide chest, it is harder on their joints to carry that bulk weight.

As for the handling dogs that size, well, thats an training issue, not a size issue.

For me, I would much rather Rosco mark a few trees and lamp poles then develop HD when hes 3 years old, all because I wouldn't wait.

That said, I do understand that I have a dog that at this point, loves everyone and everything, but if he does become male aggressive, which bullmastiffs can be, then I will deal with the best way I can. And I believe that goes with responsible ownership.

Prin
December 18th, 2006, 09:08 PM
i am FOR neutering! just not for our boy. Everybody's the exception.;)

technodoll
December 18th, 2006, 09:12 PM
prin... that is just nasty and unwarranted and it proves no point to me, quite the opposite :sad:

meb999
December 18th, 2006, 09:29 PM
While I DO agree it's your decision to make Techno...I personally (please don't flame me...it's only an opinion...http://foolstown.com/sm/str.gif ) would be worried about an 'accidental' breeding.
Dakota is big and you've admitted more than once that he's very strong and hard to control....what if someone (even someone with no intention of breeding their bitch...someone just like you who's keeping their bitch intact for hormonal reasons) brings their bitch to the dog park and you can't hold Dakotah back?
Not all bitches show 'symptoms' of heat...especially in the first few days....

That's what I would be worried about, adding to the pet overpopulation...even if you have all the best intentions in the world... :shrug:

Blathach
December 18th, 2006, 09:44 PM
This thread has run its course and will now be closed.