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Possibly testing boundaries?

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 04:12 PM
The man and I ran out of the house for about an hour yesterday afternoon and left the boys out of their crates. They had been getting along so well, that we didnt think it would be an issue.

Well we came home and the boys had gotten in a fight. Poor Phoenix has a gash on his leg from landing on a glass candle holder, and a cut under his chin from Atti. Both wounds needed stiches. Atti needed some stiches in his toe and his neck as well. The ER vet did a great job, and both boys will be ok. They did hit an artery when stitching phoenix, so they had to clamp it and put a drain in, which made the wound even bigger. They also shaved everywhere the poor guy had a scar, old or new, so hes looking bald right now.

I contacted where we got Phoenix from to let them know we had a problem. They said they were just testing who was alpha and that this fight most likely worked everything out for them. Either way, we both feel awful, and will never be leaving them uncrate again, no matter how well they are getting along.

They both get stiches out in 10 days, and the drains in 2 days.

I'm just glad they are both going to be ok. They are both sleeping now, and when they are awake, they are respecting one anothers space, so hopefully everything will be ok.

LL1
December 9th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Where did you get Phoenix from?And who is Atti?

meb999
December 9th, 2006, 04:18 PM
OMG!! that sounds awfull....that's one of my worse fears....

Give atticus and Phoenix a big kiss for me... i hope their wounds heal fast and without any complications... :fingerscr :fingerscr

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 04:19 PM
Phoenix is from Kentucky and Atti is my dane.

hazelrunpack
December 9th, 2006, 04:24 PM
I can't believe the rescue said that "they've likely worked it all out now"! Our boys "test boundaries" all the time--and there's never been a scratch or a puncture on either of them! This sounds like it could be more than just that to me...

You'll have to be always vigilant now--are you confident you'll be able to break up another fight if it gets started? Wow...that's scary....

:fingerscr for a quick recovery

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 04:26 PM
I can't believe the rescue said that "they've likely worked it all out now"! Our boys "test boundaries" all the time--and there's never been a scratch or a puncture on either of them! This sounds like it could be more than just that to me...

You'll have to be always vigilant now--are you confident you'll be able to break up another fight if it gets started? Wow...that's scary....

:fingerscr for a quick recovery

We're just going to not leave them together when we are not here. They are fine while we are around and when they are outside. They are both crate trained and dont mind being in their crates so thats where they will go if we have to leave them.

His foster mom said they were testing boundaries and that both might think they are alpha.

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 04:26 PM
Wow, scary indeed! How do you know for sure it was Atti who did it?

:fingerscr for a speedy recovery.

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 04:29 PM
Wow, scary indeed! How do you know for sure it was Atti who did it?

:fingerscr for a speedy recovery.


It may have been Ozzy, but its doubtful. Hes so much smaller then both of them and didnt have any cuts. Other then that, its the chihuahuas.

Frenchy
December 9th, 2006, 04:32 PM
I'm so sorry ! I feel very lucky that it never happened in my home . I hope the doggies can get this behind them and wish for no more incident.:fingerscr

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 04:34 PM
Do you think having two alpha males in your home is safe? :o

LavenderRott
December 9th, 2006, 04:35 PM
Testing boundries?

I doubt it. If both dogs felt that they were alpha, then they wouldn't wait until you left the house - there would be squabbles when you were home.

I am surprised that you would leave 6 dogs alone, lose in the house. I guess it is a good thing that Pheonix got the worst of that then one of those chi's of yours.

I wonder about that rescue group you got Pheonix from.

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 04:36 PM
I'm so sorry ! I feel very lucky that it never happened in my home . I hope the doggies can get this behind them and wish for no more incident.:fingerscr


Thank you :grouphug: It was my fault. i should have known better not to leave them out, even for a short time. They are doing fine right now, and have a checkup at the ER vet tomorrow evening, then again at my normal clinic Monday morning.

Golden Girls
December 9th, 2006, 04:37 PM
o my goodness :sad: so sorry to hear this. :fingerscr everyone will be fine :pawprint:

jiorji
December 9th, 2006, 04:37 PM
i don't think that sounds right...i don't think they'll just resolve things that easily. Sorry to sound negative but there's bound to be more scraps.
some just never get a break. I hope the crating idea works

I hope healing goes fast:fingerscr

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 04:38 PM
Do you think having two alpha males in your home is safe? :o

We are going to work with a trainer, and will keep them seperated at all times if needed.

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 04:39 PM
Testing boundries?

I doubt it. If both dogs felt that they were alpha, then they wouldn't wait until you left the house - there would be squabbles when you were home.

I am surprised that you would leave 6 dogs alone, lose in the house. I guess it is a good thing that Pheonix got the worst of that then one of those chi's of yours.

I wonder about that rescue group you got Pheonix from.

The chis weren't left out. They stay in my room when I'm out.

We will never be leaving them out again.

Golden Girls
December 9th, 2006, 04:40 PM
Were human and we sometimes make mistakes :grouphug:

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 04:40 PM
i don't think that sounds right...i don't think they'll just resolve things that easily. Sorry to sound negative but there's bound to be more scraps.
some just never get a break. I hope the crating idea works

I hope healing goes fast:fingerscr

I agree with you. I dont think they are going to resolve things. I am not going to risk another scrap. They will be crated when we are out, and in the new house, they can have their own rooms if needed.

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 04:41 PM
You don't think he deserves to be an only dog in his forever home?

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 04:41 PM
Were human and we sometimes make mistakes :grouphug:

Thank you so much for that.

Marshmallow
December 9th, 2006, 04:42 PM
Do you think having two alpha males in your home is safe? :o

No such thing as two alpha males if the humans are alpha. That would be if someone understood dog behavior and handled pack order properly. I think the person with six dogs knows pack order pretty well and will be able to train this new dog smoothly into the pack. Even the best dog owners dogs have fights occassionaly, most often when a new dog is brought into the pack. Adjustment takes time and crating them when alone is the most responsible thing you could do.

Good luck and I hope they all get better soon!

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 04:42 PM
If a dog is new in the home, chances are the human hasn't had any time to establish the pack order yet.

Frenchy
December 9th, 2006, 04:43 PM
Were human and we sometimes make mistakes :grouphug:

I hear you. I'm too chicken to ever get a dominant dog. All mine are submissive and now their places.

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 04:44 PM
You don't think he deserves to be an only dog in his forever home?

We only want what is best for him. My MIL is more then willing to take him if needed.

Marshmallow
December 9th, 2006, 04:45 PM
If a dog is new in the home, chances are the human hasn't had any time to establish the pack order yet.

Are you responding to me?

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 04:46 PM
Well, you seem to be looking for a fight, so I guess so.

Frenchy
December 9th, 2006, 04:46 PM
If a dog is new in the home, chances are the human hasn't had any time to establish the pack order yet.

Once I got a foster who had a fight with Daisy (I posted it here) no injuries tough. I was told by a behavior specialist to leash the newbie and attach the leash to me so he had to follow my every move. It did work.

LL1
December 9th, 2006, 04:47 PM
Sounds very odd from the rescue,I didnt even know it was legal to have that many dogs in one home in Ontario.

LibbyP
December 9th, 2006, 04:47 PM
Were human and we sometimes make mistakes :grouphug:

Accidents happen, I am sorry this happened, we all learn from mistakes, glad to read it wasn't more serious. (I) think sometimes it takes weeks/months for the honey moon stage to be over, they are starting to feel more comfortable with eachother and their surroundings and will test boundries from time to time, (I) think working with a trainer is a good idea, plus when you get your new house(congrats by the way:thumbs up ) new house new rules!!!

jiorji
December 9th, 2006, 04:47 PM
i agree with that pack order thing. In the wild when there's 2 alphas they fight until the death or until one leaves. And perhaps...I don't know i'm only speculating, the presence of 2 humans around 6 dogs isn't strong enough to dominate over an alpha dog, and chances are Phoenix too wants some reign in his new home. It's only fair for him, i'm sure he wishes for some pampering only for himself I'm sure. He's probably jealous. Who knows....:(

Marshmallow
December 9th, 2006, 04:49 PM
Well, you seem to be looking for a fight, so I guess so.

Oh no no no, I'm not like that. Are you? I'm just speaking the truth. You gave yourself your answer right there. Too new to establish pack order. It comes with time, give the woman a break. She rescued a dog and saved a life.

I see why so many people only post here a few times and then leave. They get attacked for no reason and that's a real shame.

jiorji
December 9th, 2006, 04:50 PM
Are you responding to me?

i am too by the way...open discussion for all

Greaterdane needs all the advice she can get for te best outcome

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 04:50 PM
Sounds very odd from the rescue,I didnt even know it was legal to have that many dogs in one home in Ontario.

I'm outside of the city limits, so its ok here. The new house is also just outside the city limits.

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 04:50 PM
Saved a life eh? I don't know how you can say that without seeing pictures.;)

technodoll
December 9th, 2006, 04:51 PM
We only want what is best for him. My MIL is more then willing to take him if needed.

that is good news... poor phoenix. after all he's been through, and now this. you are VERY lucky the dogs only got a few stitchable injuries - you could have come home to one dead dog, or a dog with pieces of his face missing :sad: I hope you make the right decision and save everyone alot of stress and burnt energy, place Phoenix with your MIL (he will then still be "part of the family") and restore peace in your home. Like was stated before we're human and all make mistakes, you wouldn't want another one like this happening again... why take the risk? Good luck with everything... :fingerscr

Marshmallow
December 9th, 2006, 04:52 PM
i agree with that pack order thing. In the wild when there's 2 alphas they fight until the death or until one leaves. And perhaps...I don't know i'm only speculating, the presence of 2 humans around 6 dogs isn't strong enough to dominate over an alpha dog, and chances are Phoenix too wants some reign in his new home. It's only fair for him, i'm sure he wishes for some pampering only for himself I'm sure. He's probably jealous. Who knows....:(

This is incorrect information in my opinion. If 2 dogs are dominant, the other 4 have nothing to do with it. It's the humans place to be alpha, the rest should all be viewed as equals. There are too many dogs who need homes to give up so quickly. If greaterdane wants to try and make things work is she wrong for that? Seriously.

Marshmallow
December 9th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Saved a life eh? I don't know how you can say that without seeing pictures.;)

Would you like to enlighten me? Afterall I must not know all that you do.

jiorji
December 9th, 2006, 04:53 PM
It comes with time, give the woman a break. She rescued a dog and saved a life.



ok so mistakes do happen. We hear you greaterdane. We just want to make sure this doesn't happen again.

And rescuing a dog goes way beyond just taking some animal in your home. You need to follow up and make sure you keep that animal safe otherwise you're only doing half the job.

Sorry if you feel intimidated by our answers. We're just very concerned about this dog, and the dane and the chis and Ozzy.

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 04:54 PM
It's not my place to enlighten anybody, I'd say.:shrug:

Golden Girls
December 9th, 2006, 04:54 PM
I know I'm really lucky too, mine :love: each other C :)

LL1
December 9th, 2006, 04:56 PM
That is crucial.
ok so mistakes do happen. We hear you greaterdane. We just want to make sure this doesn't happen again.

And rescuing a dog goes way beyond just taking some animal in your home. You need to follow up and make sure you keep that animal safe otherwise you're only doing half the job.

LibbyP
December 9th, 2006, 04:56 PM
Sounds very odd from the rescue,I didnt even know it was legal to have that many dogs in one home in Ontario.

I think it depends on each cities bylaws, not sure where greaterdane is but here in London, the bylaw is 3 dogs per owner so if my hubby and I were just bf/gf I could have 3 and he could have 3.

Are ya really going to consider the chi's into the dog factor? :shrug: there so tiny they should count as one ;)

Golden Girls
December 9th, 2006, 04:57 PM
:o Just wanted to lighten the thread a bit

But really GD said she doesn't usually allow them alone, she admitted to fault and took them to vet with follow up. What else but learn from it, that's it :shrug:

Marshmallow
December 9th, 2006, 04:57 PM
I feel that crating them when alone IS making sure they're safe from now on. Don't you? If aggressive behavior begins it can be immediately corrected.

I'm sure a NILF-type method would be used with the pack for a while until they adjust properly.

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 04:59 PM
I guess we differ on what's best. IMO, it's best that this dog be an only dog in his home.

Marshmallow
December 9th, 2006, 05:00 PM
:o Just wanted to lighten the thread a bit

But really GD said she doesn't usually allow them alone, she admitted to fault and took them to vet with follow up. What else but learn from it, that's it :shrug:

I agree. I think the tone here by some is very threatening and unpleasent. Isn't everyone here to support and help one another?

rainbow
December 9th, 2006, 05:01 PM
We only want what is best for him. My MIL is more then willing to take him if needed.


Does your MIL have other dogs? I also think he would be better in a home without an alpha male. And, like TD said, he would still be in the family. After all he's been through already he deserves that.

LL1
December 9th, 2006, 05:01 PM
Actually that is not the case in London if you live together,it is a maximum of 3 dogs per dwelling,regardless of whether the person is the owner of the dogs.
I think it depends on each cities bylaws, not sure where greaterdane is but here in London, the bylaw is 3 dogs per owner so if my hubby and I were just bf/gf I could have 3 and he could have 3.

Are ya really going to consider the chi's into the dog factor? :shrug: there so tiny they should count as one ;)

LL1
December 9th, 2006, 05:02 PM
What was "very threatening and unpleasent"?
I agree. I think the tone here by some is very threatening and unpleasent. Isn't everyone here to support and help one another?

LibbyP
December 9th, 2006, 05:02 PM
I agree. I think the tone here by some is very threatening and unpleasent. Isn't everyone here to support and help one another?

Very well said, :highfive:

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 05:03 PM
I agree. I think the tone here by some is very threatening and unpleasent. Isn't everyone here to support and help one another?

Actually a lot of us are here because we want to help animals, which is what we're trying to do.

rainbow
December 9th, 2006, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by jiorji
ok so mistakes do happen. We hear you greaterdane. We just want to make sure this doesn't happen again.

And rescuing a dog goes way beyond just taking some animal in your home. You need to follow up and make sure you keep that animal safe otherwise you're only doing half the job.

Well said, jiorji. :thumbs up

technodoll
December 9th, 2006, 05:04 PM
think the tone here by some is very threatening and unpleasent.

i think it's just the way you perceive things, as you are new and don't yet know the "personalities" on this board... we all have different ways of communicating but are all on the same side: the side of the dog (or cat) ;)

Marshmallow
December 9th, 2006, 05:06 PM
Actually a lot of us are here because we want to help animals, which is what we're trying to do.

Is that what you're trying to do here? Seriously, I'm not trying to start a fight or have a problem with you. I NEVER post here. I saw this thread and it's sad to me. Are you trying to help a dog who is already being helped? The owner is doing the right thing.

A mistake was made. Can you tell me you've never made a mistake? She learned and is going to do the best thing for the dog now.

Please, save your energy for the animals who REALLY need it.

Golden Girls
December 9th, 2006, 05:06 PM
Maybe there's more to this story, I don't know but GreaterDane rescued Pheonix and made a mistake today. All's I know if my dog ever fight, I'm not telling you

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 05:07 PM
The dog isn't being helped, IMO- that's what I'm saying. Having a home with good intentions isn't everything if the dog's safety is in jeopardy.

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 05:07 PM
I'm sorry I messed up. They should have never been left out together. They were doing so incredibly well, that we didnt think there would be an issue. I'll call my MIL and see what we can do.

rainbow
December 9th, 2006, 05:08 PM
I agree. I think the tone here by some is very threatening and unpleasent. Isn't everyone here to support and help one another?

Yes we are always here for each other. That's why we're trying to help greaterdane.

LibbyP
December 9th, 2006, 05:08 PM
Actually that is not the case in London if you live together,it is a maximum of 3 dogs per dwelling,regardless of whether the person is the owner of the dogs.

Then we must have been very lucky, having a single family home split as a duplex(not really) 2 upstairs on the main(not really) and 3 in the basement(not really)(5) living in the same house with acouple fosters here and there. Bylaw officers didn't have a problem.

LL1
December 9th, 2006, 05:09 PM
Prin is,as are many others who have posted.

Please, save your energy for the animals who REALLY need it.

Marshmallow
December 9th, 2006, 05:10 PM
The dog isn't being helped, IMO- that's what I'm saying. Having a home with good intentions isn't everything if the dog's safety is in jeopardy.

Who are you to decide if the dog is being helped though? Do you KNOW for a fact that your statments are true? Maybe you know greaterdane personally. Do you? Have you been to her home? Have you met her dogs and watched her interact with them?

LL1
December 9th, 2006, 05:11 PM
Yes you are,and if a duplex,that would be 2 dwellings ie 6 dogs max.I would be very careful and not exceed that amount.
Then we must have been very lucky, having a single family home split as a duplex(not really) 2 upstairs on the main(not really) and 3 in the basement(not really)(5) living in the same house with acouple fosters here and there. Bylaw officers didn't have a problem.

Marshmallow
December 9th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Prin is,as are many others who have posted.

I never said she wasn't. I just view this as time that could be spent saving other animals who need it.

jiorji
December 9th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Please, save your energy for the animals who REALLY need it.

would you like to see proof?? Because I can show you that he really DOES need it.

and i say this again....i accept that it was a mistake. Maybe you ran out for an emergency. Fine! But from what I know, i don't want this to happen again! That's ALL i'm saying.:pray:

technodoll
December 9th, 2006, 05:12 PM
I'll call my MIL and see what we can do.

i hope it works out GD... that is putting Phoenix first, IMO (assuming your MIL's house is a safe, loving and responsible home ;) ) Please keep us posted ok?

LibbyP
December 9th, 2006, 05:12 PM
All's I know if my dog ever fight, I'm not telling you

GG you are :crazy: funny

LibbyP
December 9th, 2006, 05:14 PM
Yes you are,and if a duplex,that would be 2 dwellings ie 6 dogs max.I would be very careful and not exceed that amount.

I don't have that NOW. I only have my/our 2 and not even fostering at this time.

rainbow
December 9th, 2006, 05:17 PM
i hope it works out GD... that is putting Phoenix first, IMO (assuming your MIL's house is a safe, loving and responsible home ;) ) Please keep us posted ok?

I agree....Phoenix needs to come first. I don't think you can take a chance of something like this happening again. I hope your MIL will take him and he'll still be in the family but have his own home.

Frenchy
December 9th, 2006, 05:18 PM
I don't have that NOW. I only have my/our 2 and not even fostering at this time.

:offtopic: I always say a foster shouldn't count , the city limits are for the amount of dogs you own, a foster is like dogsitting. :shrug:

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 05:19 PM
Does your MIL have any dogs?

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 05:19 PM
I agree....Phoenix needs to come first. I don't think you can take a chance of something like this happening again. I hope your MIL will take him and he'll still be in the family but have his own home.


We do want what is best for him. We are going to work with a trainer as well. We are going to visit my MIL tomorrow.

greaterdane
December 9th, 2006, 05:22 PM
Does your MIL have any dogs?


She has a neutered 6 year old doberman. They had a dobie/shep mix that passed away last month, and are looking for another dog. The two have met and did well together, but we will have to do a trial run. If any at all seems off, we will look for another only dog home.

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 05:24 PM
Good luck.:)

jiorji
December 9th, 2006, 05:28 PM
good luck:thumbs up

Ford
December 9th, 2006, 05:29 PM
This thread will now be closed at the request of the OP, who feels her question has been answered.