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New dog - Sudden paralysis

MyBirdIsEvil
December 9th, 2006, 11:43 AM
Before anyone asks, yes we've already been to the vet this morning, we rushed her in, and the diagnosis was "Well I don't know".

The vet mentioned she did have an ear infection (dunno why the other vet, 2 days ago, didn't notice that:mad:), but her heart rate sounded good, and well, honestly he didn't check for much else. He prescribed Digoxin thinking it might be a heart problem, but I'm not so sure.

The other day her heartworm test was negative, she was given a dewormer (Drontal), rabies vaccination, DA2PL CCV CPV Annual, and I gave her a Heartgard chewable (ivermectin).

Neither of the vets here in town are very good, so before I take her to St Louis or something, which is 3 hours away, and get another diagnosis of "I don't know", I'd like to ask if anyone has had similar experience, has any ideas, or has a suggestion as to what a different vet should test her for when I get a second opinion.

So here is what happened:

My b/f got up this morning to take her outside, she didn't pee or anything, which he thought odd because she'd been in the crate all night, but figured she must have peed in the crate which is why she didn't go, she layed on the ground rubbing her head around and rolling, but he thought she was just playing. He brought her back inside and put her back in the crate.
10 minutes later he tried taking her outside again. She pooped, walked slowly to the other side of the yard, and collapsed.
I was still in bed, but he brought her inside and layed her on the floor to show me. Her gums were completely white. She appeared fully conscious though she could barely open her eyes, and her heart rate felt ok (by touch, I didn't have a stethoscope), but she was completely parylized. There was absolutely no tension in her muscles, twitching, anything whatsover, they were just limp like if your arm falls asleep or something.
We put her in her crate and got in the car to take her to the vet, and on the way there, probably 2 minutes in, she sat up, looked around a bit. By the time we were at the vet, about 5 minutes after that, she could stand, barely, she was so weak she had to lean on the doorway of the crate, and was a bit disoriented. By the time the nurse saw her, a couple minutes later, she could walk a bit, but still seemed a bit disoriented/sleepy. When the vet saw her, about 10 mins after that she was fully aware, sniffing around on the floor, acting normal, though moving a bit slower than usual, and all color had come back in her gums.
Could this be a reaction to either the ivermectin or the vaccinations? I mentioned the ivermectin and he said reaction from that would be almost immediate, as in a few hours after I gave it, is that true? I'm just at a loss as to what this could be, and the vet was completely stumped.
Oh and btw, she peed as soon as I got her home, and she was running around jus fine now. She was rubbing her head on the floor again, but I think that may be the ear infection. She didn't want to eat, but she ate over a cup of food yesterday night and doesn't seem to want to eat more than once a day anyway:shrug:
Oh I also forgot to mention, control of her back legs seemed to come back last. She sat up first and her back legs weren't working yet. When she was standing and leaning against the crate her back legs were still very weak and she had little control over them.

hazelrunpack
December 9th, 2006, 11:53 AM
At first I thought grand mal seizure, but I've never seen it turn a dogs' gums pale. That's so scary!! It could be so many things... Can you get her into the St Louis clinic? Is that the teaching vet hospital there? I know it's a long drive and probably (if our experience with the teaching vet hospital in St Paul is any indication) pretty expensive, but I think I would try to get her in there.

MyBirdIsEvil
December 9th, 2006, 11:57 AM
She appeared fully conscious though she could barely open her eyes

I just realized that looks kind of confusing.
I mean, she looked like she was trying to open her eyes more but couldn't. Her eyelids were the only part of her body moving a bit, but she couldn't get them more than halfway open. You could see her looking around (or it appeared so), and her eyes didn't look unaware like when someone is unconscious.
Maybe she wasn't actually conscious, but it looked like it.

hazelrunpack
December 9th, 2006, 11:57 AM
MBIE--is your new dog a collie? I just talked to hubby and he thinks collies are very sensitive to ivermectin...

MyBirdIsEvil
December 9th, 2006, 12:01 PM
At first I thought grand mal seizure, but I've never seen it turn a dogs' gums pale. That's so scary!! It could be so many things... Can you get her into the St Louis clinic? Is that the teaching vet hospital there? I know it's a long drive and probably (if our experience with the teaching vet hospital in St Paul is any indication) pretty expensive, but I think I would try to get her in there.

I dunno what the teaching hospital here is. I just know St Louis metropolitan area has over 2 million people, so I was going to attempt to find a vet that sounded a bit more thorough and may have experience with something similar.
We live in a small town and there's only 2 vets. The other vet here is more experienced with livestock than anything, though I may call them.

I don't even know how to go about finding a teaching vet hospital :confused:. As I said, the vet here in town isn't much help, so if anyone has a suggestion as to how I find one, I would appreciate it.

MyBirdIsEvil
December 9th, 2006, 12:03 PM
MBIE--is your new dog a collie? I just talked to hubby and he thinks collies are very sensitive to ivermectin...

Nuh uh, Royce is a collie, new dog is some kind of sitehound/terrier mix with maybe a bit of pit bul mixed it. I think many sitehounds are sensitive to ivermectin too, but the vet mentioned reaction to that is immediate, which I wasn't sure is correct.

jiorji
December 9th, 2006, 12:03 PM
oh no...:sad:
I hope you figure out what's going on

MyBirdIsEvil
December 9th, 2006, 12:06 PM
One on top would be new dog.
Same as in the other thread in the pics section, which I don't feel like finding, lol.

hazelrunpack
December 9th, 2006, 12:07 PM
Let me see if I can find a number for a teaching hospital in MO... be back in a bit...

MyBirdIsEvil
December 9th, 2006, 12:09 PM
Let me see if I can find a number for a teaching hospital in MO... be back in a bit...

Thank you! I would be sooo grateful.

hazelrunpack
December 9th, 2006, 12:22 PM
Here's a link to numbers for the teaching vet hospital in Columbia

http://www.vmth.missouri.edu/

Click on the link to their Small Animal Clinic on the left side of the page to get to the numbers. There's one there listed for emergencies...if they aren't open when you call, I would try that number, just to talk to someone. They might have some advice or know of a closer clinic to refer you to.

Are you any closer to Columbia than to St Louis?

gonementally2da
December 9th, 2006, 12:35 PM
I was a vet assist. for years, and only a couple things come to mind is possibly a brain issue, maybe tumor or some form of seizure? i am not trying to scare you but i would definitely not wait too long before i went on to st. louis. i used to use a country doctor and the one i knew really didn't have the goods when it came to dogs, he just got too used to farm animals. the vet school is a great idea since it should be able to do a complete check on his head. my other thought would be possibly a nerve issue, that would cause the inability to move and if it's severe enough in the spine it could possibly cause disorientation, but i would lean towards the first. good luck and keep us posted!:grouphug:

MyBirdIsEvil
December 9th, 2006, 12:49 PM
I was a vet assist. for years, and only a couple things come to mind is possibly a brain issue, maybe tumor or some form of seizure? i am not trying to scare you but i would definitely not wait too long before i went on to st. louis. i used to use a country doctor and the one i knew really didn't have the goods when it came to dogs, he just got too used to farm animals. the vet school is a great idea since it should be able to do a complete check on his head. my other thought would be possibly a nerve issue, that would cause the inability to move and if it's severe enough in the spine it could possibly cause disorientation, but i would lean towards the first. good luck and keep us posted!:grouphug:

No, you're not scaring me, I already have ideas on a lot of this stuff, I'm just trying to see if anyone has suggestions I haven't thought of.
I thought seizure, but the muscles were completely limp, and with seizures they're usually stiff, so I wasn't sure. Brain tumor, thought of that too, just hoping it's not. I thought of the nerves also, she does have a really curved back like a sitehoud, and I thought she may have pinched a nerve and lost muscle function, or maybe some type of other nerve issue.
Do you think it could be an inner ear problem? But then again I don't think that would cause complete paralysis of the muscles.

Here's a link to numbers for the teaching vet hospital in Columbia

Thanks a lot, hazel! I'll take a look at that site and try giving them a call.

gonementally2da
December 9th, 2006, 12:58 PM
[QUOTE=MyBirdIsEvil;332462]No, you're not scaring me, I already have ideas on a lot of this stuff, I'm just trying to see if anyone has suggestions I haven't thought of.


i would be surprised if it was an ear issue, it just doesn't jive with anything i've ever seen, as for the stiffness making it not a seizure, there are so many forms and reasons for seizures that it could still be. no matter what this is one of those situation i would consider an "emergency" that the administrators were talking about on another thread, don't hesitate waiting for answers.....go, go, go! at this point the dog is going through this for a limited time, and the vet will need time to figure it out, by waiting you are cutting down that window of time needed to save the dog. what has happened is a reaction to something wrong, it's your warning, take it. good luck and again keep us posted, please

rainbow
December 9th, 2006, 01:13 PM
MBIE, so sorry to hear about your dog. I also would get her to the vet teaching school as soon as possible. Good luck and keep us posted. :fingerscr :fingerscr

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 01:16 PM
Good luck MBIE! :fingerscr

The pale gums to me show a heart thing, or a breathing thing... :o But either of those could be a secondary symptom.:shrug:

Mocha's mum
December 9th, 2006, 01:54 PM
The white gums, to me, sound like shock. But I'm not a doggy expert....just a thought from my experience with human patients. When an individual goes into shock, the body keeps most of the blood in the core so that the vital organs maintain adequate oxygen perfusion.

Sounds like a moderate allergic reaction of some sort. I wouldn't think it would be anaphylactic, as your pup could still breath. Was she swollen in the face anywhere? Yikes!

Mocha and I wish you the best of luck :pray: Keep us updated...

TeriM
December 9th, 2006, 02:01 PM
Good luck with the pup MBIE :sad: . Fingers crossed that he will be fine :fingerscr . These things always seem to happen on the $$ :frustrated: weekends.

Golden Girls
December 9th, 2006, 02:14 PM
YIKES :fingerscr for the lil guy and you MBIE

meb999
December 9th, 2006, 02:32 PM
I have no thoughts on what this could be, but I just wanted to tell you that we're sending you pawsitive thoughts, i hope she's ok :fingerscr :fingerscr :pawprint: :pawprint: :pawprint: :pawprint:

MyBirdIsEvil
December 9th, 2006, 03:31 PM
Sounds like a moderate allergic reaction of some sort. I wouldn't think it would be anaphylactic, as your pup could still breath. Was she swollen in the face anywhere? Yikes!

In fact yes, she did just develop some hives on her face about an hour ago, they're going down now.

-----

To everyone that said take her to the vet..Columbia missouri is almost 5 hours away and it would be hard to just up and drive there, though we would if they had recommended it. However, we just called that clinic and the head clinician said since she's completely back to normal at the moment, and never had trouble breathing, or an irregular heartbeat, just to watch her.
She said if she starts showing any symptoms again to immediately head that way, but at the moment there's nothing they could really do.
Exact words were "There's about 110 different things that could cause that", and she mentioned bug bites, food reaction, etc.
She said there's a chance it could be something more serious, but there's not anything they can do immediately since she's not showing any symptoms.

Basically we would be driving there for nothing since she doesn't know what emergency tests to do. If she so much as starts acting funny we'll go, but at the moment it seems there's not any options other than to watch her.

Thanks to everyone for the kind thoughts:grouphug:
:frustrated: It seems like everytime one of my animals has symptoms of something they go away as soon as a vet is involved never to be seen again.
Hopefully that's the case here and it was just some kind of bug bite or food reaction.

hazelrunpack
December 9th, 2006, 03:39 PM
I'm glad you were able to get some advice anyway.

If she shows any more severe allergy symptoms, though--take her to your local vet again. Anaphylactic shock can kill in less than the 5 hours it would take for you to get to Columbia... Even if they don't know what she's allergic to, your local vet should be able to treat the symptoms...

:fingerscr Hope she has no more symptoms now! You don't need any more scares like that one, eh? The Pack has its :pawprint: s crossed for you guys, too!

hazelrunpack
December 9th, 2006, 03:43 PM
:frustrated: It seems like everytime one of my animals has symptoms of something they go away as soon as a vet is involved never to be seen again. Hopefully that's the case here and it was just some kind of bug bite or food reaction.

LOL Isn't that just the truth!?! I can't count how many times we've rushed into the vet with palpitating hearts and come out with red faces! :o

MyBirdIsEvil
December 9th, 2006, 03:45 PM
I'm glad you were able to get some advice anyway.

If she shows any more severe allergy symptoms, though--take her to your local vet again. Anaphylactic shock can kill in less than the 5 hours it would take for you to get to Columbia... Even if they don't know what she's allergic to, your local vet should be able to treat the symptoms...

:fingerscr Hope she has no more symptoms now! You don't need any more scares like that one, eh? The Pack has its :pawprint: s crossed for you guys, too!

Yeah I would take her to get stablized and take her to columbia after she's released. Don't worry I'm not taking a chance on driving 5 hours if my dog is having an emergency.

hazelrunpack
December 9th, 2006, 03:46 PM
:o Sorry...just wanted to make sure...

MyBirdIsEvil
December 9th, 2006, 03:48 PM
It's ok, I did kind of make it sound like that, lol.

hazelrunpack
December 9th, 2006, 03:50 PM
sometimes I reread what I've written and I sound bossier than I really am, too... hmmm... though hubby might disagree with that! :D

MyBirdIsEvil
December 9th, 2006, 06:47 PM
Hey, I don't mind people being bossy if they think I might be unknowingly putting my dog in danger :shrug:

OntarioGreys
December 9th, 2006, 09:11 PM
It sounds familiar to a couple incidents that have occured to greyhounds
some took a few days before they started recovering, in the case of Ava in this article she was able to stand with help 3 hours later, it is something called FCE( Fibro Cartilaginous Emboli ) it is more common in larger breeds but incidences are rare which is why a vet would be stumped not a lot have seen and takes an MRI or Myelography to confirm which means at a major research or teaching hospital most vet do not have this kind of specialized equipment in order to make the diagnosis, and once the acute stage passes it would be difficult to confirm with a myelogram even, in some cases paralysis is permanent though most start to recover 7 to 21 days later and prognosis is often pretty good, vets have no idea why it occurs therefore have no idea how to prevent and there are no warning signs prior, simply cartilage shows up in the spinal cord and blocks the blood flow and that causes the paralysis, the one greyhound I know of was at the vets with the dog just for a physical and suddenly the dog collapsed on the floor(so it was a case where no exercise or physical trauma occured) the dog was rushed to a major vet hospital for testing to figure out what happened and a myelogram showed the embolism in the spinal cord), it was about a week before the dog had some use of it's legs, and that was the first time I had heard about it, later a few other greyhound ended up also being diagnosed with after there collapses and an article then appeared about it in the Celebrating Greyhounds magazine, it occurs also in horses, there is an article of it occuring in a tiger, a calf and a couple of incidences of it occuring in cats though very rare, This is the story for Ava the greyhound
http://www.gpa-emerald-pacific.addr.com/id16.htm


There are 3 pages to this article from petplace about FCE
http://www.petplace.com/dogs/fibrocartilaginous-embolic-myelopathy-fce/page1.aspx The article also provides info on other causes that have similiar symptoms



If this is what occured, and being she is getting up though weak/wobbly prognosis for full recovery is really good and it is not something that tends to re-occur

I wonder if the hives are related to the heart meds instead?
This is the side effects in humans
What are the possible side effects of digoxin?
If you experience any of the following serious side effects, stop taking digoxin and seek medical attention or contact your doctor immediately:
an allergic reaction (difficulty breathing; closing of the throat; swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; or hives) ;

a severe headache, fainting, or extreme drowsiness or dizziness;
irregular heartbeats;
slow heartbeats (fewer than 60 beats per minute);
abnormally fast heartbeats;
vision changes (e.g., yellow-green or blurred vision);
hallucinations; or
abnormal or psychotic behavior.
If you experience any of the following less serious side effects, continue to take digoxin and talk to your doctor if you experience
decreased appetite and diarrhea;
unusual tiredness or weakness;
depression;
nausea or vomiting;
drowsiness or dizziness;
decreased sex drive; or
enlarged breasts in males.
Side effects other than those listed here may also occur. Talk to your doctor about any side effect that seems unusual or that is especially bothersome.



Though I do not see any sighthound in her myself just wanted to add that most sighthounds do tolerate ivermectin okay the odd one will have head bobbing incidences from but those same ones tend to have problems tolerating other meds too

MyBirdIsEvil
December 9th, 2006, 10:18 PM
Though I do not see any sighthound in her myself just wanted to add that most sighthounds do tolerate ivermectin okay the odd one will have head bobbing incidences from but those same ones tend to have problems tolerating other meds too

Yeah, the head clinician at columbia said it was mostly collies that were sensitive, and in general most dogs won't have a reaction unless given too large a dose.

I don't think FCE would be it, since the full episode only lasted about 1 1/2 hrs.
The full paralysis only lasted about 10-15 mins, and she was able to stand about 5 mins after that.

Prior to collapsing she was completely fine. About an hour and a half after collapsing she was completely fine.
The hives showed up before I gave her any of the heart pills, so I don't think that was the case.
At this point I'm thinking it was probably an allergic reaction to something, but I wonder what.
She's on really crappy food right now, she won't eat the timberwolf and I haven't had the chance to order her any good canned food.
I have some pedigree canned which is what she's eating, and it has wheat and all kinds of stuff in it. I'm going to try mixing the timberwolf with some raw meat and see if she'll eat it, but I'm definately getting rid of the pedigree.

I guess it could have been a bug bite too, hence the rubbing her head on the ground and scratching at it just before the episode, and the hives on the face, but like the vet at columbia said, there's many things that could cause those kind of symptoms, and the ear infection could also explain the scratching.

vfrohloff
December 10th, 2006, 07:54 AM
Well, 2 things come to mind when I read your post. The first is that the dog was given both Heartgard and Drontal. I don't know if there is any interaction between the two, but basically your dog was given a double dose of dewormer. These 2 deworming treatments treat for many (not all) of the same types of worms and I wonder why the vet would give them both at the same time. Really, unless the vet suspected that your dog had tapeworms there would have been no reason to give Drontal on top of the Heartgard, and even then they should have been given a few days apart, IMO. The second thing that comes to mind is that the pale gums and limpness indicate shock to me. It could be something else but I find it odd that this happened to your dog after being dewormed. I know that sighthounds tend to be more sensitive and have livers that process toxins slower than other dogs, so perhaps the double dose of worming treatment was enough to send your dog into shock. Sounds a bit like a classic case of poisoning to me, but again that's JMHO. How is your doggie doing today?

MyBirdIsEvil
December 10th, 2006, 01:51 PM
He didn't give her the Heartgard with the Drontal, he just gave the Drontal.
I gave her the Heartgard about 12 hours later.
As to why he gave her the Drontal, you'd have to ask him :shrug:
I guess he figured she had tapeworms since she'd been picked up and brought to the pound as a stray.

Either way, both were given 2 days before this weird episode happened, so who knows.

I hope it was something like that, because then it would be unlikely to happen again.

papillonmama
December 10th, 2006, 02:06 PM
Scary, hope everything turns out okay.:pray:

vfrohloff
December 11th, 2006, 09:46 AM
I would maybe mention to the vet that you gave your dog Heartgard 12 hours after he gave her Drontal. What I wasn't understanding is why the vet would give her both, but if he gave her only the Drontal then that is pretty standard procedure. Every pet I have ever acquired was dewormed on their first vet visit, and Drontal is usually what they use. If your dog is indeed part sighthound the combination of the 2 drugs could have been too much for her system to handle in a 12 hour period and may have produced this reaction, even 2 days later. I know that when I adopted my Greys we were told to be very careful of what meds to use on them because they are so sensitive. How is she doing?

SnowDancer
December 11th, 2006, 11:07 AM
I have been away for a week. Just returned and saw post. Has your pup had a full body X-Ray to check for any damage to discs? Would check both neck and back. I realize your dog is not a mini Dachshund - my 2 soul mates had worst case disc disease so as soon as I hear the word paralysis disc disease comes to mind. I hope it isn't this and your pup recovers. A neuro might well be required.

LibbyP
December 11th, 2006, 12:15 PM
I'm not quiet sure how I missed this thread, How is she doing? From your first post (I) thought allergic reaction to vacc. we have to give Libby's in two sets, split up + plus a shot Benadryl just to make sure. Knock on wood nothing has happened with us but with her previous owner it wasn't a pretty site I've been told and she was able to warn us awhead of time, unlike your little one. Hope everything goes okay from here on out, and that it a) never happens again b) something minor. Oh and just a side note ~ I use a country vet and he's awesome :thumbs up

MyBirdIsEvil
December 11th, 2006, 04:00 PM
I would maybe mention to the vet that you gave your dog Heartgard 12 hours after he gave her Drontal. What I wasn't understanding is why the vet would give her both, but if he gave her only the Drontal then that is pretty standard procedure. Every pet I have ever acquired was dewormed on their first vet visit, and Drontal is usually what they use. If your dog is indeed part sighthound the combination of the 2 drugs could have been too much for her system to handle in a 12 hour period and may have produced this reaction, even 2 days later. I know that when I adopted my Greys we were told to be very careful of what meds to use on them because they are so sensitive. How is she doing?


Both vets we talked to know which drugs she was given and when, but they didn't think that was the problem. I will give each medication on seperate days from now on though, just in case. We're waiting a week to put the frontline on her just for that reason.
She hasn't had any symptoms whatsoever since the first episode, so hopefully it was an isolated incident :fingerscr

I have been away for a week. Just returned and saw post. Has your pup had a full body X-Ray to check for any damage to discs? Would check both neck and back. I realize your dog is not a mini Dachshund - my 2 soul mates had worst case disc disease so as soon as I hear the word paralysis disc disease comes to mind. I hope it isn't this and your pup recovers. A neuro might well be required.

She hasn't had an X-ray yet. There's a vet clinic about 45 mins away that has an emergency clinic and everything and we'll have them do that. I'm not sure if the vet in town is even qualified to find those kind of problems on X-ray.

I'm not quiet sure how I missed this thread, How is she doing? From your first post (I) thought allergic reaction to vacc. we have to give Libby's in two sets, split up + plus a shot Benadryl just to make sure. Knock on wood nothing has happened with us but with her previous owner it wasn't a pretty site I've been told and she was able to warn us awhead of time, unlike your little one. Hope everything goes okay from here on out, and that it a) never happens again b) something minor. Oh and just a side note ~ I use a country vet and he's awesome

Well, luckily she's not due for anymore vaccinations until april 2007, according to the papers. I'll try having them split them up next time though, just in case that's what it was. It definately sounds like an allergic reaction to something at this point, since she had hives on her face afterward.
---------
Oh, and I did switch her off the crappy Pedigree canned. I haven't had a chance to order any really good hollistic food in to try yet, but I got her some Chicken Soup food from the store and she seems to like it a lot. So either way, much much better than the Pedigree. The Pedigree canned had lots of wheat, corn and presevatives, not to mention mystery bi-products, so she could have had a reaction to that.