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Nature's Variety

coppperbelle
December 5th, 2006, 07:32 PM
What do you think of this food?

www.naturesvariety.com

rainbow
December 5th, 2006, 10:00 PM
I only looked at the Chicken Meal and Brown Rice formula. It has three grains and only one protein source. I don't like citric acid because of the bloat concern and I have large dogs. I don't like menhaden fish meal because it's usually preserved with ethoxyquin before it's sold to the pet food company. They don't say if the Vitamin K is K1 or K3. If it's K3 then it is menadione sodium bisulfite complex which is not safe IMO.


Chicken Meal & Brown Rice Medley
Nature's Variety Prairie Canine Dry Diet

High in meat protein
Whole grains
Exclusive freeze dried raw meat Bio-Coating
Naturally formulated for rotation feeding
Complete and balanced for all life stages

Healthy, Natural Ingredients
Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Barley, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Montmorillonite Clay, Flaxseed Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Alfalfa Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Beta Carotene, Folic Acid), Sea Salt, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite), Chicken Liver, Inulin, Flaxseed Oil, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Apples, Carrots, Peas, Cottage Cheese, Chicken Eggs, Freeze Dried Chicken, Freeze Dried Turkey, Freeze Dried Turkey Liver, Freeze Dried Turkey Hearts, Pumpkinseeds, Ground Chicken Bone, Butternut Squash, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Kelp, Salmon Oil, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Persimmons, Olive Oil, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Rosemary Extract, Sage, Clove

Prairie Chicken Meal & Brown Rice Medley is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profile for All Life Stages.

Feeding Guide and Instructions
Sudden changes in diet can sometimes result in digestive disturbances. Do not overfeed regardless of the pet’s acceptance and eagerness. Overfeeding is the most common cause of digestive upset. Always introduce any new diet over a period of days, mixing with the present diet. Keep fresh water available at all times and offer plenty of exercise.

For more detailed feeding information based on your pet's weight and activity level, please visit our Interactive Feeding Guideline.

Sizes Available
5 lb (2.27 kg)
15 lb (6.81 kg)
30 lb (13.62 kg)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 26.0%
Crude Fat (min) 14.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.4%
Moisture (max) 10.0%

Calories
391 per cup

Other Nutritional Data
Calcium (min): 1.41%
Phosphorus (min): 0.90%
Vitamin E (min): 128.4 IU/kg
Vitamin C* (min): 50 mg/kg
Omega 6 Fatty Acids* (min): 2.12%
Omega 3 Fatty Acids* (min): 0.56%
*Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles.

Vitamins
Carotene: 5.63 mg/kg
Vitamin A: 19220 IU/kg
Vitamin D: 2433 IU/kg
Vitamin E: 128.4 IU/kg
Vitamin K: 0.75 mg/kg
Ascorbic Acid: 50 mg/kg
Thiamine: 12.28 mg/kg
Riboflavin: 8.88 mg/kg
Pantothenic Acid: 19.63 mg/kg
Biotin: 0.45 mg/kg
Folic Acid: 0.36 mg/kg
Choline: 3379 mg/kg
Vitamin B12 0.12 mg/kg
Vitamin B6 4.4 mg/kg
Niacin: 58.79 mg/kg
Iodine: 3 mg/kg

Minerals
Sodium: 0.41%
Potassium: 0.65%
Chloride: 0.79%
Magnesium: 0.12%
Sulfur: 0.23%
Manganese: 29.78 mg/kg
Iron: 272.90 mg/kg
Copper: 24.80 mg/kg
Zinc: 244.10 mg/kg
Selenium: 0.41 mg/kg

Amino Acids
Methionine-Cystine: 0.96%
Methionine: 0.55%
Cystine: 0.41%
Lysine: 1.77%
Tryptophan: 0.30%
Threonine: 1.251%
Isoleucine: 1.17%
Histidine: 0.67%
Valine: 1.38%
Leucine: 2.37%
Arginine: 1.59%
Phenylalanine-Tyrosine: 1.20%

Prin
December 5th, 2006, 10:21 PM
Yeah, there's no menadione in it anymore. The newer bags don't have it. :)

Personally, after having so many allergy dogs, I just think this is a recipe for disaster as pertaining to allergies. For dogs who aren't prone to anything, great! But it would be so hard to figure out the allergy for the more sensitive ones...

mafiaprincess
December 5th, 2006, 10:27 PM
Queen Picky didn't like it. Even on day one didn't like it. The chicken one. She pouted through the entire bag.

rainbow
December 5th, 2006, 10:32 PM
Yeah, there's no menadione in it anymore. The newer bags don't have it.

Well, that's good news. :highfive:

technodoll
December 6th, 2006, 08:34 AM
dakotah loved all the varieties and did as well on them as on any other holistic kibble (which is not very good, LOL). when they first introduced their venison dry, it had much better ingredients, more meat & protein, but then they downgraded :frustrated: what a turnoff.

their raw instinct kibble is pretty good, and their raw foods look promising :)

Rottielover
December 6th, 2006, 08:46 AM
Harley uses their raw food. very tastey from his point of view. Never tried the kibble. Seems the only one he does well with is DVP. so we stick to their raw

gonementally2da
December 9th, 2006, 08:13 AM
can't say much about Nature's cause between those who have used it and those who haven't i've never noticed a difference. personally my favorite of all foods and the one dogs really show well on is Diamond (a little harder to find though petco has started carrying some varieties, but most feed stores carry it) within a month your dogs coat shines and is healthier, it is great for development and health and THEY LOVE IT!!) I also notice few dogs have allergies from it!

springermom0406
December 9th, 2006, 09:14 AM
When I was feeding RAW I used their raw patties and medallions. The dogs LOVED it, but the price was way too much. So then I moved onto the prey model raw, now we are back to kibble lol. I'm not sure about their kibble, I don't know anywhere that sells it... just their raw stuff.

Goldens4Ever
December 9th, 2006, 09:22 PM
Diamond pet food? Hhhhmmmm.........There was a huge scare recently about Diamond & they had to recall tons of bags of food :eek:

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 09:24 PM
Not sure diamond is better than Nature's Variety, personally... :shrug:

LL1
December 9th, 2006, 09:27 PM
Thats a lot of different protein sources.

Prin
December 9th, 2006, 09:28 PM
Yeah, a lot of things to possibly aggravate an allergy.:shrug:

LL1
December 9th, 2006, 09:30 PM
Definitely,it is a real trend that I am not a fan of

technodoll
December 9th, 2006, 10:44 PM
diamond dog food is VERY middle-grade. Nature's variety is high-grade holistic. nothing to wonder about when deciding which is better quality :shrug:

gonementally2da
December 10th, 2006, 11:44 AM
it was only a small style of diamond that was recalled. and that can happen to any product heck lettuce has been recalled!! as for the allergies i've NEVER seen any dog show allergies on it and i' know MANY people who have used it regularly. it's a personal choice on dog food and even though aparently some may feel it's "middle grade" I (and many people i know) look at nature's choice as being the "middle grade".
i was simply trying to help.

technodoll
December 10th, 2006, 12:17 PM
even though aparently some may feel it's "middle grade" I (and many people i know) look at nature's choice as being the "middle grade".


we are not talking about "nature's choice" here, but "nature's variety" - please check out their website for more info on their products: http://www.naturesvariety.com/.

And it's not about "feeling" if a food is middle-grade or not, it's about looking at the ingredients on the bag, understanding what they mean, where the ingredients come from, and arriving at a FACT. and the FACT is that no food by the Diamond brand is as high-grade as Nature's Variety, ingredient-wise. that's all. You may want to surf the Food forum to get more info on how to grade a dog food, or cruise http://www.dogfoodproject.com/ for a list of good vs bad ingredients to look out for. it's a very eye-opening experience. Also, not because you don't personally know anyone whose dog does poorly on the Diamond brand does this mean that's the case for all dogs. think about it ;)

LL1
December 10th, 2006, 12:27 PM
That is not a fact,it is an opinion.


And it's not about "feeling" if a food is middle-grade or not, it's about looking at the ingredients on the bag, understanding what they mean, where the ingredients come from, and arriving at a FACT. and the FACT is that no food by the Diamond brand is as high-grade as Nature's Variety, ingredient-wise. that's all. . think about it ;)

technodoll
December 10th, 2006, 03:58 PM
Let's see.

Diamond Maintenance Formula for dogs (dry):

Ingredients
Chicken by-product meal, wheat flour, whole grain ground corn, rice bran, whole grain brown rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), beet pulp, egg product, fish meal, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor. Vitamins, minerals and chelated minerals

Nature's Variety Chicken Meal & Brown Rice Medley (dry):

Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Barley, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Montmorillonite Clay, Flaxseed Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Alfalfa Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, vitamins & minerals, Chicken Liver, Inulin, Flaxseed Oil, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Apples, Carrots, Peas, Cottage Cheese, Chicken Eggs, Freeze Dried Chicken, Freeze Dried Turkey, Freeze Dried Turkey Liver, Freeze Dried Turkey Hearts, Pumpkinseeds, Ground Chicken Bone, Butternut Squash, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Kelp, Salmon Oil, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Persimmons, Olive Oil, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Rosemary Extract, Sage, Clove


LL1, if you think Diamond is an inferior food "by opinion only" and not by FACT, you need to head on over to the food forum and get some edumacation on what is a good food vs a bad one! :thumbs up

LL1
December 10th, 2006, 04:18 PM
Been studying dog foods for about 7 years,no need for edumacatin here.They both look middle of the road to me,and I would not use either. :thumbs up


LL1, if you think Diamond is an inferior food "by opinion only" and not by FACT, you need to head on over to the food forum and get some edumacation on what is a good food vs a bad one! :thumbs up

gonementally2da
December 10th, 2006, 04:19 PM
[QUOTE=technodoll;333330]we are not talking about "nature's choice" here, but "nature's variety" -

that was a mistake in my typing


and thank you to the senior contributor who said it was an "opinion not a fact" i appreciate someone correcting that. again i was expressing my personal view on what i feel is a great dog food, and i never said NO ONE has ever had a reaction to diamond, just that i have never met anyone who has had ANYTHING bad to say about Diamond. i also don't believe i ever said it was better than natures variety (lol got it right i think that time) i can't say anything about that one since i have never chosen to try it (why change when what i use works GREAT) i just said it was an alternative to try if the original starter of thread was having issues. it was simply an OPTION, i didn't expect to feel attacked for my opinion. hope you all have a great day!!!:grouphug:

LL1
December 10th, 2006, 04:20 PM
:grouphug:

technodoll
December 10th, 2006, 04:23 PM
nobody was attacking your opinion... just setting some facts straight, was all. the fact is that any dog food containing by-products, wheat, corn, unidentified protein sources and human food-chain rejects (egg product, beet pulp, etc) is not a good food by any means. and that is a fact, not an opinion ;) so please stop spreading false information around because it can only confuse less-educated people. we fight hard here to set the FACTS straight to educate folks who care to learn, and i will defend this position no matter what you say. good day to you too! :)

LL1
December 10th, 2006, 04:37 PM
Who is spreading false info?

And you are using your opinion,lets be honest here.As posted earlier by Prin, for dogs with allergies this can be a recipe for disaster.Fishmeal contains ethoxyquin which is a carcinogen and is not human grade.Citric acid has been indicated as a factor with bloat.Can you explain your opinion on why this food is better when it contains those ingredients?Bearing in mind opinions are like belly buttons etc


nobody was attacking your opinion... just setting some facts straight, was all. the fact is that any dog food containing by-products, wheat, corn, unidentified protein sources and human food-chain rejects (egg product, beet pulp, etc) is not a good food by any means. and that is a fact, not an opinion ;) so please stop spreading false information around because it can only confuse less-educated people. we fight hard here to set the FACTS straight to educate folks who care to learn, and i will defend this position no matter what you say. good day to you too! :)

gonementally2da
December 10th, 2006, 04:46 PM
i believe you said you've studied dog food for 7 years? (i am curious as to why, most people wouldn't get that into it, but i know you had to have your reasons and am curious if you had a bad experience that would be a warning to not watching more carefully) so from someone who always tries to do best but honestly has more experience in the medical side and the training side, i would appreciate your opinion on some really good brands that still have the benefit of beautiful coat, healthy big dog (i have a rott and boxer), etc? :pawprint:

technodoll
December 10th, 2006, 04:47 PM
Bearing in mind opinions are like belly buttons etc

LOL! always the clever one, you are ;) as if i'm going to waste my breath arguing with you on anything. not a chance hun :)

Gonementally2da, there are many educated members on this forum who are qualified to give you food recommendations. do some searches on previous threads for lots of great advice & food resources, you'll be pleasantly surprised! since you are new to the forum, better to get to know the members before jumping to conclusions based on this thread alone. just some friendly advice. :)

LL1
December 10th, 2006, 04:57 PM
Over the last few years I have had several dogs,in my home and in my rescue,that had some serious health issues so I have been looking for years to try and make the best possible choices for my furry friends.I also am very interested in nutrition for humans so it is a bit of a hobby,when I have time of course!

Where are you located?Have you thought about a home prepared diet,either cooked or raw(home made or store bought)?Or would you prefer a kibble or canned diet for your dogs?I can suggest some books to read too if you like?
i believe you said you've studied dog food for 7 years? (i am curious as to why, most people wouldn't get that into it, but i know you had to have your reasons and am curious if you had a bad experience that would be a warning to not watching more carefully) so from someone who always tries to do best but honestly has more experience in the medical side and the training side, i would appreciate your opinion on some really good brands that still have the benefit of beautiful coat, healthy big dog (i have a rott and boxer), etc? :pawprint:

gonementally2da
December 10th, 2006, 06:59 PM
Where are you located?Have you thought about a home prepared diet,either cooked or raw(home made or store bought)?Or would you prefer a kibble or canned diet for your dogs?I can suggest some books to read too if you like?

home prepared isn't workable for me, two big dogs, two children, husband and job! i'd be running even more than usual. i don't like canned(it causes too many dental problems. so i guess kibble.oh yeah, my area is kansas city. i'm always willing to check into options. thanks!:p

meb999
December 10th, 2006, 07:09 PM
Been studying dog foods for about 7 years

REALLY??? wow, impressive...:thumbs up

so after 7 years you still think that a food with a by-product as a first ingredient is as good as a food with a named MEAT meal as a first ingredient?
interesting....learn something new here everyday :D

Thanks for sharing your opinion on the matter ;)

meb999
December 10th, 2006, 07:12 PM
Gonementally2da --> Here's a website that I've found VERY usefull in my quest to find a food that my Buster can digest.

http://www.boxerworld.com/feeding/

The lady who made it has been studying dog food for more than 7 years :thumbs up It basically gives you the basics in understanding the ingredients on your dog food label.

home prepared isn't workable for me I HEAR ya on that!! There are some really great food out there though, it's just a matter of reading the ingredients thouroughly.

Good luck!

Inverness
December 10th, 2006, 07:13 PM
Yeah, there's no menadione in it anymore. The newer bags don't have it. :)

Personally, after having so many allergy dogs, I just think this is a recipe for disaster as pertaining to allergies. For dogs who aren't prone to anything, great! But it would be so hard to figure out the allergy for the more sensitive ones...

If you people don't mind me going back to the topic, I wanted to say, in response to Prin's comment here, and that is purely anecdotal, that my GSP who is severely allergic/intolerant to 99 % of dog food on the market actually does quite well on Nature's Variety's Beef and Barley formula.

Purely anecdotal.

LL1
December 10th, 2006, 07:19 PM
REALLY??? wow, impressive...:thumbs up

so after 7 years you still think that a food with a by-product as a first ingredient is as good as a food with a named MEAT meal as a first ingredient?
interesting....learn something new here everyday :D

Thanks for sharing your opinion on the matter ;)

:thumbs up I think any foods with fishmeal and/or citric acid are to be avoided so yes,they would be the same in my opinion.

Gonemental,which foods are available in your area?Do you have any smaller chains that carry higher end foods?Or something like Global or Ryans?

technodoll
December 10th, 2006, 07:26 PM
I think any foods with fishmeal and/or citric acid are to be avoided

i am glad to see then that you agree DIAMOND foods are to be avoided, since most contain fish meal :)

LL1
December 10th, 2006, 07:27 PM
i am glad to see then that you agree DIAMOND foods are to be avoided, since most contain fish meal :)


Absolutely,think I said that once or twice a page back.:)

And alfalfa in addition to citric acid concerns me.

technodoll
December 10th, 2006, 07:33 PM
then all is good. just didn't want to confuse gonementally, who is saying Diamond is a good food, when in reality we all know it's pretty mediocre :thumbs up

LL1
December 10th, 2006, 07:39 PM
then all is good. just didn't want to confuse gonementally, who is saying Diamond is a good food, when in reality we all know it's pretty mediocre :thumbs up


No worries.I imagine if they read all the posts the opinions on both foods will be clear.

technodoll
December 10th, 2006, 07:42 PM
that would be the best, yes! :thumbs up

LL1
December 10th, 2006, 07:43 PM
:highfive: :grouphug:

Prin
December 10th, 2006, 11:47 PM
Inverness, if a dog is allergic to ONE thing, you might accidentally get successful on Nature's Variety. But say I had started Jemma and Boo on it before I knew what was going on with both of them. Jemma would have a body rash and infected ears, and Boo would be puking. How do you figure out what the allergy is when a food has everything in it? Tons of protein sources, tons of grains- it would be just a nightmare.

And a LOT of the dogs who develop allergies now end up with a variety of different allergies and sensitivities.:shrug:

Inverness
December 11th, 2006, 06:33 AM
Inverness, if a dog is allergic to ONE thing, you might accidentally get successful on Nature's Variety. But say I had started Jemma and Boo on it before I knew what was going on with both of them. Jemma would have a body rash and infected ears, and Boo would be puking. How do you figure out what the allergy is when a food has everything in it? Tons of protein sources, tons of grains- it would be just a nightmare.

And a LOT of the dogs who develop allergies now end up with a variety of different allergies and sensitivities.:shrug:

I didn't say Nature's Variety was a good choice for allergic dogs. I merely stated that MY own very allergic and intolerant dog was somehow ok with the beef and barley. The OP's question was not about allergies, she asked for comments on this food. I shared my own personal experience, that's all. Back to not posting in Prin's food section. It's safer. :shrug:

Prin
December 11th, 2006, 12:19 PM
No, post away! I'm sorry.:o I just had to mention it because I only know one dog who can eat every food without a problem. Everybody else is allergic to something.

Have you figured out what your doggies were allergic to? Sometimes they aren't allergic to the same ingredients when they're higher quality.:shrug:

technodoll
December 11th, 2006, 12:31 PM
another person's experiencehere... the only dogs i know who are "allergic" to foods are the ones mentioned on this forum, and my dad's little mixed rescue who can't eat pork without getting cannon butt. otherwise... i had no idea there were so many dogs with allergies around. it sounds rampant! :eek: what have we done to our cats and dogs with the introduction of commercial petfoods, i wonder... :(

Prin
December 11th, 2006, 12:36 PM
Once they start though, it seems you can't go back. They just develop more and more. Some people believe that it's the Ol'Roys that make them sensitive and with rescues, a lot of the time, that's probably what they got before us.:sad:

Hunter's_owner
December 11th, 2006, 12:37 PM
another person's experiencehere... the only dogs i know who are "allergic" to foods are the ones mentioned on this forum, and my dad's little mixed rescue who can't eat pork without getting cannon butt. otherwise... i had no idea there were so many dogs with allergies around. it sounds rampant! :eek: what have we done to our cats and dogs with the introduction of commercial petfoods, i wonder... :(

Well really allergies are becoming more popular among people too. I didn't hear of many kids when I was growing up that couldn't be around peanut butter, but no it is a common thing. So I guess it is something being done to the people food as well as the pet food:rolleyes:

technodoll
December 11th, 2006, 12:41 PM
So I guess it is something being done to the people food as well as the pet food

i agree... and it's called "processed food". every decade there are more and more "convenience" foods and artificial flavors of cereals and tv dinners coming out... the trend for fast-food is not slowing down and the repercussions are starting to show now. :sick:

Prin
December 11th, 2006, 12:45 PM
hehe :evil: I guess it's one way of thinning out the weaker ones from the herd...:o

Scott_B
December 11th, 2006, 12:51 PM
Once they start though, it seems you can't go back. They just develop more and more. Some people believe that it's the Ol'Roys that make them sensitive and with rescues, a lot of the time, that's probably what they got before us.:sad:


Not always Prin. If you remember, poor Rosco had the itchies something terrible when I put him on Canidae at 10 weeks old. after confrming it was a food allergy, we got him sorted out and well, hes doing great! Hes has had all the protien sources that are in Canidae, (only raw) and hasnt bothered him in the least. Maybe hes grown out of it..maybe its the raw diet. Hard to say..

technodoll
December 11th, 2006, 12:51 PM
I guess it's one way of thinning out the weaker ones from the herd...

yeah... feed them ol'roy with peanuts :evil: :D

Prin
December 11th, 2006, 12:52 PM
Oops, sorry Scott. I meant, once you get one, usually eventually you get another and then another... :o

technodoll
December 11th, 2006, 12:53 PM
Hes has had all the protien sources that are in Canidae, (only raw) and hasnt bothered him in the least

as cooking alters a meat's chemisty, you will often see this "phemomena". raw proteins are fine, but cook them and the dog is allergic - remember, nature did NOT build them to eat cooked foods and this is their body's way of protesting :dog:

Prin
December 11th, 2006, 12:55 PM
phemomena do doooo dododo :D

I think different ways of cooking alter in different ways too.:shrug:

Scott_B
December 11th, 2006, 12:56 PM
Very true Techno, and its one of the reasons I switched him to the raw diet.

That said, he has had cookies and such like northern biscuts that have chicken, or fish or the Canidae biscuts that have lamb and hes been fine with those. So again, its hard to say totally. All I know, hes healthy, and looks great! :D

technodoll
December 11th, 2006, 01:00 PM
priiiiiiiiiiin.... come towards the light... joooin ussss.... :D

Prin
December 11th, 2006, 01:04 PM
hmm... But my friends Ecoli and Salmonella keep telling me not to listen to you guys. :D

Scott_B
December 11th, 2006, 01:10 PM
Well of course they would say that..they're the bad guys :evil:

Prin
December 11th, 2006, 01:16 PM
lol :D Hmm...

Scott_B
December 11th, 2006, 01:20 PM
doooooit! :highfive:

technodoll
December 11th, 2006, 01:46 PM
oooo think of jemma with a plush super-shiny coat, no dandruff, no allergies... and you don't have to battle with any petfood company to discuss the ingredients :D

gonementally2da
December 11th, 2006, 02:02 PM
:Gonemental,which foods are available in your area?Do you have any smaller chains that carry higher end foods?Or something like Global or Ryans?

haven't heard of anything but this is a big city so SOMEWHERE there should be something.

Prin
December 11th, 2006, 06:01 PM
HA HA, Scott. :frustrated: Lucky I don't listen to my inner voice, especially when it comes from somebody else (he sent me subliminal messages by pm :D). Very funny though.:D

Not sure. I'm sure I can find a kibble again that does Jemma good things too. I KNOW IT! :D

Scott_B
December 11th, 2006, 07:04 PM
I know nothing of what you speak of :angel:

Goldens4Ever
December 11th, 2006, 07:55 PM
:offtopic:

I am part of a golden retriever forum & you would not believe how many people on that forum are in COMPLETE OPPOSITION of the foods we hold dear to us on this forum! The majority of the members are completely opposed to 'holistic' dog foods & are absolutely set on the foods we know are unhealthy (store brands, Purina, Iams, Science, Euk, etc.). They insist that what their vets and/or breeders sell/recommend is what's best. I am just in awe.....even when presented with facts about dog food ingredients, they refuse to allow themselves to think that perhaps they're wrong. Some people just don't want to know :shrug:

A lot of people believe that if their dog has a shiny coat & no obvious allergies, than the food must be healthy........they don't understand that there's so much more to it than that! Further, the biggest arguement is that some of the people on this forum have is that these holistic companies don't have the long-term studies that other companies do (Purina, Iams, Science, Euk, etc.)& they don't want their dogs to be test rats for a food that hasn't been studied for a long period of time. They just don't get it; they are not concerned about the ingredients in their dogs' food at all, as long as the company has been around years. They have the mentality of, "well, if the food's so bad, then why has it been around for long & so many dogs have lived long lives on it?" Uuugghhh....:frustrated:

Oh yeah.....about Nature's Variety food. I don't like the Citric Acid either; however, I think that the "freeze-dried raw meat BIO-COATING" is pretty neat, although I am unsure about how much more healthy it actually makes the food....BIO-COATING versus non? Further, I don't know what the purpose of the Sea Salt is in their formula(s).

Prin
December 11th, 2006, 08:00 PM
Yeah, no long term studies, eh? What do they think of Purina redoing a lot of their foods because their new research on protein levels proved the opposite of what they used to think was true? :rolleyes:

A lot of old research is very flawed, unfortunately.

Goldens4Ever
December 11th, 2006, 08:04 PM
Prin-

Do you have a website where I can read about that?

technodoll
December 12th, 2006, 09:05 AM
I'm sure I can find a kibble again that does Jemma good things too. I KNOW IT!

prin, why not test something first... boil a batch of brown rice until it's nice and supersoft, and mash in a few cans of salmon with broth (from the dollar store) as well as some of your EFA oil, and add a few spoons of that to her EVO meals? i think it would work for her coat, dilute the Evo a bit, and add some extra nutrition without breaking the bank.... :shrug: it can't hurt to try! :o

Prin
December 12th, 2006, 01:05 PM
Yeah, but for some reason, giving her real salmon is making her have goopies.:( She's getting some freeze dried salmon as treats and it just isn't going well.)

Goldens4ever, I'll go look. It was posted here at one point.

Prin
December 12th, 2006, 01:07 PM
Here's one thread about it, see post #2:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=30730

Prin
December 12th, 2006, 01:10 PM
Here's the original article:
http://www.purina.ca/images/articles/pdf/GeriatricNutritionProtein.pdf

marine's girlie
December 12th, 2006, 04:09 PM
as cooking alters a meat's chemisty, you will often see this "phemomena". raw proteins are fine, but cook them and the dog is allergic - remember, nature did NOT build them to eat cooked foods and this is their body's way of protesting :dog:

i'm curious about this statement, if this is true for dogs then why isn't it true for people? my aunt is allergic to mushrooms and shellfish (among other things) and she can't eat either of these cooked or raw.
cooking at less than extreme temperatures may alter the conformation of the protein slightly (there are 4 things that constitute conformation) but it can't alter the primary structure or the arrangement of the amino acids, so it should still be recognizable. unless i totally misunderstood my metabolic biochemistry professor.
i don't think cooked foods are the pariah that people want them to be.

Prin
December 12th, 2006, 04:16 PM
The temps that dog food is cooked at would definitely alter the protein structures, IMO (not much human food is cooked at that high a temp). Between that and the processes that the meat goes through to get to the food, it's no wonder all the foods need extra vitamins and supplements.:shrug:

But yeah, I have heard that there are two food allergy tests out there- cooked and not. :shrug:

Scott_B
December 12th, 2006, 07:28 PM
Also dogs are dogs, not people. apples to oranges. :thumbs up

LL1
December 12th, 2006, 07:38 PM
Dont feel bad Inverness,and I really dont think her post was meant to come across the way it may have seemed to you,the tone is hard to get sometimes on the internet and I think it was just misinterpreted.

Some people do make snide and sarcastic posts and I try to just ignore those.

marine's girlie
December 12th, 2006, 07:57 PM
according to the research i've done lately, the average temperature for extruded foods is about 121C (250F), and there are human foods that are baked at much higher temperatures. i made an angel food cake on sunday and baked it at 350F and the stuffed mushrooms at 425F. i still don't buy the raw proteins are ok while cooked proteins are not bit. cooking may alter a quartenary or teritary structure, but i don't see how it can alter the sequence of amino acids which make up a protein, thus wouldn't the molecular weight remain the same?
i have never heard of there being a raw food and a cooked food allergy test, but i'll have to look into this.
between raw and commercial foods, each have their drawbacks and each have their positives. i have seen dogs do very well on a commerical diet, but poorly on a raw diet and vice versa.

technodoll
December 12th, 2006, 07:59 PM
My understanding is that denatured (cooked) protein is more likely to be recognised as a foreign protein by the dog's body, which can cause an allergic reaction - while in humans it is the contrary. canines possess a very different inner anatomy than humans, they are designed by nature to eat, digest and process raw meat while we do better with cooked foods.

here is a wonderfully detailed, yet simple, explanation & outline: http://b-naturals.com/Sep2005.php

”The stomachs of dogs (and humans) make industrial strength hydrochloric acid that can dissolve iron. Dogs hold chewed food in their stomachs for 4 to 8 hours after ingestion. The low pH of the gastric juices provides a barrier to pathogens. Only a little food at a time is released in to the intestine, which it passes through quickly. This gives any bacteria that may live through the repeated acid baths little time to colonize and produce gastrointestinal distress.

In humans, on the other hand, the food may pass through the stomach into the intestines in as little as 30 to 60 minutes. The partially digested food may spend as long as 12 to 60 hours in the intestines before it is passed into the colon, and then defecated. This means that “the intestines suffer prolonged exposure to whatever germs survive a minimal aid wash in the stomach.”

This information demonstrates how dogs can easily digest raw meat and bones and have the ability to destroy harmful bacteria. Nature is wise in her design and provides protection for these carnivores in consuming prey, drinking pond water and eating food stuff contaminated with bacteria. Problems such as salmonella, E Coli and other food borne pathogens are skillfully handled by the extended time in the strongly acidic environment of the stomach. Any surviving pathogens have little opportunity to propagate during their quick transit time though the intestines.

technodoll
December 12th, 2006, 08:06 PM
here you go: http://www.healthy-paws.ca/allergies.htm

Allergies & Nutrition, exactly what is the connection?
Jennifer Lennon

Will feeding a raw food diet help my pet’s allergies?

I will tell you that raw food will unquestionably help pets with allergies.

See, one of the problems with using kibble when dealing with allergies, is that there are SO MANY ingredients in the food, how can you properly identify what the troublesome food source is?

The second problem I have with kibble is that it's actually the processing of the food that is causing problems and usually not so much the food itself. That is not to say dog’s don’t have food allergies, they can and do. But I know people whose dogs were "allergic" to beef but once their systems were cleaned out with a proper raw diet, they could eat beef without incident. I will get into detail further along about mucous, as this does have a bearing on allergies and how they are perpetuated by processed food.

Remember when lamb & rice kibble was the hypoallergenic dog food? Now it's fish and potato, and next year it will be quail and quinoa. When I do speaking engagements, I always stress to pet owners the need for variation. It takes 1 to 3 years to develop an allergy; most dog owners find a food and stick with it until the dog has some sort of reaction (i.e. allergies, itchies, weight gain).

Now lastly are the grain ingredients in kibble products. When they are whole, they pose less of a problem than when they are *over* processed for kibble products. Not to mention the fact that the kibble companies don't use the best grain ingredients, what they get are fractions of grains and floor sweepings. Yet still some dogs will not even be OK with whole grains, just like people, each has a different body to work with.

If you have a pet that suffers form allergies (inhalant or food), please find a vet who will put off or eliminate vaccinations until this dog is not so compromised. While the manuals that the vets receive for companion animal vaccinations aren't quite as comprehensive as the one for humans, the human one does state that vaccinations shouldn't be administered to patients with T or B or T & B cell immunodeficiency. T & B cell immunodeficiency is characterized by allergies.

Here is an outline of the role mucous plays in the digestive system and how it perpetuates allergies:

Interestingly, when cooked foods are eaten, large amounts of mucus are secreted. Foods that are particularly mucus forming include: meat, cheese, milk products, pastries, candy, white flour products, white pasta, and ALL PROCESSED, REFINED FOODS. These foods may appropriately be referred to as "glue foods." Nature provides mucus as a protective coating, which surrounds gluey material to keep the intestinal membranes from absorbing toxic substances.

When cooked food is eaten, the T-cells, which are so vital to immune function, increase in the gastrointestinal tissue to protect our system from certain foods, which are interpreted as foreign matter. If we consume cooked and processed food day after day without adequately eating raw food and fibrous foods, protective mucus will form in excess and build up on bowel tissue similar to the age rings we see in the trunks of trees. Dr. Bernard Jensen, in his book “Tissue Cleansing Through Bowel Management,” writes: “Mucosal dysfunction occurs when the intestinal mucous lining becomes stagnant and putrefactive. It begins to develop many unfavorable conditions. No longer does it serve the function of facilitating elimination of faecal material. Instead it degenerates in several ways. It can become abscessed, in which case irritations, abrasions, ulcerations and bleeding can occur. Food passage can be very painful. Mucous can dehydrate and accumulate due to increased viscid consistency. This causes layer upon layer to be built up until extreme constipation occurs. This old material becomes a source of infection and toxic absorption, holding many otherwise excreted products. It also greatly inhibits the absorption of nutrients and water, adding to nutritional crisis.”

As a result of faulty eating, nature's protective coating -- which was designed for occasional use only -- becomes enraged and inadvertently contributes to ill health. Consequently, the immune system is taxed and the presence of this excess mucus creates a perfect medium for the multiplication of bacteria, viruses, parasites and worms. Autoimmune diseases may develop due to the fact that the immune system has begun to attach the body, rather than invading microorganisms. Continually eating “lifeless” foods -- cooked, refined or processed foods devoid of fibre and enzymes -- over stimulate the immune system in a way that compromises its function. As a result, we become susceptible to every virus and bacteria, constantly coming down with some illness and we may not think to relate it to our digestive systems.

Kibble will take an enormous toll on a pet’s body. Since the kidney and liver constantly filter waste products from the body, they were (and are) constantly at work when so many impurities were present. I mean, in addition to the extremely poor quality ingredients of most kibbles, you will also have a variety of chemicals to preserve it, BHT, BHA, ethoxyquin. Now in addition to these preservatives, inorganic and toxic dyes are added to commercial food. Binding agents are added to the food to create the shapes and clay products may be added to produce consistent-looking stools. Other additives can include anti-caking agents, drying agents, texturizers, stabilizers, and thickeners. And while not chemicals, refined sugar and fat may be added to make the food more palatable.

To just give an explanation of how the digestive system is affected by what form nutrition is obtained, here is a summary of the life of a kibble pet ...

Puppies (or kittens) experience initial intestinal scarring and protein infiltration when weaned on to commercial food at an early age (early age in biological terms would be before three months).

Intestinal scarring interferes with the re-absorption of bile salts. The liver produces bile fluid that plays an important role in the digestion of dietary fats. The digestive enzymes used to digest food are delivered to the small intestine in a solution of water.

Since oil (fats) and water don't mix, the enzymes have difficulty attaching to the liquid. To solve this problem, bile is secreted by the gallbladder. Bile salts act like laundry detergent, emulsifying lipid molecules. This breaks down the lipid and exposes more surface to the effects of the digestive enzyme lipase. Bile salts are not normally excreted from the body, they are recycled. Once their work is complete they are reabsorbed from the intestine, recycled by the liver and returned to the gallbladder for future use. (Note: re-absorption problems would be the early morning vomiting of bile.)

Eating a lifetime diet of processed food places a great demand on the pancreas to produce digestive enzymes.

Unable to keep up with the demand, the pancreas becomes enlarge and enflamed.

White blood cells bring additional enzymes to supplement digestion, neglecting their job to protect the body from invaders. Digestion is slowed.

Slowed digestion allows ample time for harsh chemicals and foreign molecules to irritate the pancreas, liver and intestinal lining.

The irritation and otherwise-occupied white blood cells provide continued opportunities for large grain protein or other foreign molecules to infiltrate the intestine.

Constant inflammation of the pancreas, liver and intestinal linings result in a sustained production of cortisol.

The adrenal glands, exhausted from this sustained effort, may produce cortisol that is biologically inactive.

Biologically inactive cortisol fails to shut of the ACTH (adrenocoricotrophic hormone) feedback loop. The pituitary gland may become hypertrophied and exhausted. Excessive cortisol production, prescription steroids, intestinal scarring, and the otherwise occupied white blood cells hamper IgA production (IgA is the first line of defense in the immune system).

IgA deficiency allows for the continued infiltration of large protein molecules into the body.

IgG and IgM antibodies are deployed, which memorize the amino acid chains of the large protein molecules, and attempt to destroy them.

IgG and IgM antibodies later recognize that same amino acid chain elsewhere in the dogs’ own body. Unable to distinguish between self and non-self, the antibodies destroy these tissues as well.

And a lymphatic system preoccupied with immune function (the production of more white blood cells) interferes with lipid digestion.

It's a chicken-and-the-egg puzzle. Many dogs today exhibit some degree of leaky gut syndrome and excess cortisol production. They suffer from chronic skin infections, allergies, autoimmune disorders, vomiting, diarrhea, obesity, hypothyroidism, urinary tract infections, and incontinence. *Which particular* disorder they develop is likely a matter of genetic predisposition. But many of our pets are experiencing the same underlying problems.

Natural, raw food is the foundation for many, many years of brilliant health.

LL1
December 12th, 2006, 08:12 PM
My understanding is that denatured (cooked) protein is more likely to be recognised as a foreign protein by the dog's body, which can cause an allergic reaction - while in humans it is the contrary.

I wonder how the denaturing of the protein done through cooking differs from the denaturing done during digestion.

Prin
December 12th, 2006, 08:21 PM
I would guess that breaking it apart with heat is sort of like exploding it, while digesting it is enzymes, which break it apart in a very specific way. Just my theory.:shrug:

Hunter's_owner
December 12th, 2006, 08:28 PM
Prin I agree with your theory. From what I can remember, digestion works in a specific way to break apart the proteins with specific enzymes, that way the amino acids in the proteins are taken up as needed. By denaturing with cooking, the protein actually changes so that the enzymes cannot break the protein apart.

This may be wrong...it has been a few years since organic chem:o

technodoll
December 12th, 2006, 08:31 PM
here is a simple explanation i found:

Meat is animal muscle. The muscle has coiled-up protein molecules. Heating up the meat makes the protein molecules unwind and gets rid of some of the water in the meat.

One type of protein called myoglobin, which stores oxygen, is what makes beef muscle (steak) red. Above 140 degrees, myoglobin can’t store oxygen anymore, and there’s a change in the iron contained in meat, too. Those chemical reactions are what makes beef look different when it’s cooked.

Bitzane said that a protein’s function determines its shape. “When you mess up that shape, it’s called denaturation,” she said. Cooking causes a protein to lose its shape and its ability to perform its original function.

LL1
December 12th, 2006, 08:36 PM
I am not sure,the denaturing by stomach acid apparently changes the protein as well.

I find it all really interesting,much like how some people avoid by-products and some feed them regularly.

Goldens4Ever
December 12th, 2006, 11:46 PM
Prin-
Thanks for finding & posting those websites for me about Purina's 'studies.'

On another note, Nature's Variety frozen, raw meaty bones rock!

Angie J
December 13th, 2006, 11:33 AM
Why isnt home made workable.

I have a hubby, 4 yr old, teens a job outside the home.... I find home based meals as easy as preparing lunch for my daughter (can do it at the same time and no time is lost)..... Mmmmmmmm, Pork Ribblets and ground chicken this morning (food processor)
But, I do feed kibble as well in a pinch, Canidae.

Oh, and 2 doggies that would be considered Large-Giant Breeds.

Angie J

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 12:38 PM
home-made is totally workable - like everything in life, you MAKE time for what you consider important. and i consider my dog's health high on my list off priorities, since they can't feed themselves, i am their guardian and it's my job to give them the best... yes it takes a bit of time to put their meals together but i would do the same for my kids (if i had any), so what's the difference if i do it for my dogs? :o but not everyone feels this way. :dog:

Prin
December 13th, 2006, 01:28 PM
yes it takes a bit of time to put their meals together but i would do the same for my kids (if i had any), so what's the difference if i do it for my dogs?See that's where we differ... If I'm not doing it for ME, how can I trust that I will do it consistently for my doggies? If you were raised with bad eating habits (or lack thereof), IMO, it's not easy to take on the burden of feeding somebody else well.:shrug:

meb999
December 13th, 2006, 01:30 PM
home-made is totally workable - like everything in life, you MAKE time for what you consider important. and i consider my dog's health high on my list off priorities, since they can't feed themselves, i am their guardian and it's my job to give them the best... yes it takes a bit of time to put their meals together but i would do the same for my kids (if i had any), so what's the difference if i do it for my dogs? :o but not everyone feels this way. :dog:

:o there are more and more of these comments being made on the board, and I gotta say it's really starting to bug me. You feed RAW and you feel it's the best for your dog. Good for you, I think that's great.
But there IS still alot of controversy on this diet, and feeding kibble DOESN'T mean that you don't care about your pets health.

Prin
December 13th, 2006, 01:39 PM
:highfive: meb, that's true too.

Hunter's_owner
December 13th, 2006, 01:44 PM
and feeding kibble DOESN'T mean that you don't care about your pets health.

Yeah, I am glad you said this, because I have been feeling like it was only me that felt this way. Nothing against what anyone does or says, because I know that for the most part we are all doing what we feel is best for our pets. Most of the time I stay away from such talks because I feed kibble:shrug:

Scott_B
December 13th, 2006, 01:44 PM
Techno isn't saying its wrong to feed kibble. Everyone has to feed what they feel comfortable with. Thats fine. But explaining why she feeds raw isn't wrong. And I don't say that because I feed it. I'm big on find what works for your pet. Be it kibble or Raw.

But because someone praises raw, it seems that kibble feeders get defensive about it. No one is forcing you to feed it. How is that any different then a thread saying how great your pup on kibble is doing? Kibble is controversial don't ya know? :p No one gets upset when someone posts saying how great their pup is doing on Kibble, so why get upset at the raw comments, just because you don't agree with it?

Prin
December 13th, 2006, 01:48 PM
I'm sorry, but saying our dogs are not a priority because we feed "fast" kibble instead of taking the time to grind and whatever is insulting.

There's a difference between:
"I feed raw because I feel it's best for my dog." AND
"I feed raw and other people are just lazy and don't care about their dog's nutrition and health enough to take the time to do it."

Not what she said literally, but it's what it means.:shrug:

Hunter's_owner
December 13th, 2006, 01:48 PM
Techno isn't saying its wrong to feed kibble. Everyone has to feed what they feel comfortable with. Thats fine. But explaining why she feeds raw isn't wrong. And I don't say that because I feed it. I'm big on find what works for your pet. Be it kibble or Raw.

But because someone praises raw, it seems that kibble feeders get defensive about it. No one is forcing you to feed it. How is that any different then a thread saying how great your pup on kibble is doing? Kibble is controversial don't ya know? :p No one gets upset when someone posts saying how great their pup is doing on Kibble, so why get upset at the raw comments, just because you don't agree with it?

No no, thats not it at all. I am definetly not upset at the raw comments. I think it is great that you guys can do that for your animals, I really do, especially after seeing such great results. But I do know one lady (not from this forum, in real life) that tries to convert everyone to feeding raw, to the point of making them feel guilty for feeding kibble. I guess some of that carries over for me whenever I hear anyone praising raw, it just always goes back to her for me.

But really I want to emphasize that I am not upset at all with any comment made, I was just glad to know that I wasn't the only non-raw feeder out there:)

Scott_B
December 13th, 2006, 01:59 PM
I'm sorry, but saying our dogs are not a priority because we feed "fast" kibble instead of taking the time to grind and whatever is insulting.

There's a difference between:
"I feed raw because I feel it's best for my dog." AND
"I feed raw and other people are just lazy and don't care about their dog's nutrition and health enough to take the time to do it."

Not what she said literally, but it's what it means.:shrug:


Well then I think thats your problem and insecurities Prin. No offense, but I don't see her saying that.

If people asked why I feed raw its because I believe its the best choice out there for my pup. When I fed Canidae it was because it was the best choice out there for my pup.

For the longest time you where pro SG. If a question was asked about what food to feed, you suggested SG. It was because you felt it was the "best choice" for your dogs. No one said, "wow that Prin makes me feel like crap because I don't feed SG". Because no one thought that. This is no different. Your just reading into it too much.

And Mem, i understand what your saying. Raw feeders take a lot of verbal abuse from vets and such, and so many do feel they need to defend their choice, but only because they want to inform others of why they feel its a better way of feeding. Same way one would inform about a quality kibble. I still recommend Canidae as I feel its one of the best out there.

And one of the biggest excuses or issues people have with raw or homemade is that its too time consuming. And to me, shes just explaining why its not.

Prin
December 13th, 2006, 02:09 PM
No one said, "wow that Prin makes me feel like crap because I don't feed SG". Because no one thought that. Actually, yeah, they did and still do. Not about the SG, but about holistic food in general, and I've learned to back off.

A lot of raw feeders feel like techno does, and that's fine. But you have to remember, even when you're talking to another raw feeder here, there are other people reading.

Scott_B
December 13th, 2006, 02:19 PM
Actually, yeah, they did and still do. Not about the SG, but about holistic food in general, and I've learned to back off.

A lot of raw feeders feel like techno does, and that's fine. But you have to remember, even when you're talking to another raw feeder here, there are other people reading.

But you defended why you thought it was a great food. I see no fault in that. And some people just like to knit pick.

As for the others who read this forum. So? I'm all for new people who come on and ask, "whats this raw you speak of, and why is it so great?"

No one has said if you feed kibble, you hate your pet. And I don't believe for a second anyone on here feels that way. If you seriously feel that way then you have guilt issues. I've seen Techno recomend different kibbles all the time.

As I said, I feed raw because its the best thing for my pup, and I would do anything for him. If I feed kibble, it would be because I love my pet and its what I felt is best for him. Goes both ways.

Kibble feeders just seem to get upst that raw feeders say these things, even though kibble feeders say it all the time. They feel they have to defend their kibble and so they get defensive and think the raw feeders think they dont love their pets. And its just not true!

lol that was long winded..hope it made sense :p

PS, I hate grouping into two parties raw vs kibble feeders. We're all pet lovers and thats what counts! :thumbs up

Prin
December 13th, 2006, 02:24 PM
What's up with the poking at my mental state over and over? Seems I have issues left and right. :rolleyes:
If you seriously feel that way then you have guilt issues. I've seen Techno recomend different kibbles all the time.

Honestly, I feel what meb described often, and I just gave up.
Like here: post #2
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=33146
How is it best for them if they haven't tried it yet?:shrug: Unless.. that's a general statement about how techno feels about raw? ;)

Sorry, techno, you know how you feel and I know how you feel, but sometimes, it just rubs too hard.:o

Scott_B
December 13th, 2006, 02:30 PM
What's up with the poking at my mental state over and over? Seems I have issues left and right. :rolleyes:


Honestly, I feel what meb described often, and I just gave up.
Like here: post #2
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=33146
How is it best for them if they haven't tried it yet?:shrug: Unless.. that's a general statement about how techno feels about raw? ;)

Sorry, techno, you know how you feel and I know how you feel, but sometimes, it just rubs too hard.:o


Sorry, I meant that in a general sense, not personally towards you Prin.

And again, I see no issue on what she posted there. I too believe raw is the diet that is best for dogs. And maybe thats why I don't have a problem with it. But you shouldn't take offense to her belief over it. I don't take offense that you feed kibble, or that you feel its better for your pup. Thats Great that you do. And I see no problem with that.

marine's girlie
December 13th, 2006, 03:02 PM
My understanding is that denatured (cooked) protein is more likely to be recognised as a foreign protein by the dog's body, which can cause an allergic reaction - while in humans it is the contrary. canines possess a very different inner anatomy than humans, they are designed by nature to eat, digest and process raw meat while we do better with cooked foods.
if this were true, then humans who were allergic to the raw version of a certain food woud do ok with the cooked one, but we know this to be untrue. people with food allergies are reactive to both the raw and cooled form of the food. i don't see why it would be any different for dogs.

and while i agree that the physiology of dogs and humans is different, the rules of biochemistry are not. thus i view comparing dogs and humans as comparing tangerines and oranges not oranges and apples. we are at least in the same ball park, even if we are't playing the exact same game. also, modern dogs and modern humans have walked down the evolutionary path together, so i think that dogs have been exposed to cooked foods for longer than people realize.
i'm just wondering if the increase in health problems noted in both dogs and humans is fall out from improvments in diagnostic technology and improvements in health care that allow us to live long enough to have health problems, rather than solely the fault of diet.

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 03:06 PM
there are more and more of these comments being made on the board, and I gotta say it's really starting to bug me. You feed RAW and you feel it's the best for your dog. Good for you, I think that's great.

um wait - i never mentioned anything in there about feeding raw. i said it's about taking the time to put a good meal together, whatever that is. most raw feeders take a lot LESS time to feed their dogs than i do, so that really wasn't the point i was trying to make. i'm sorry my statement sounded ambiguous. :pawprint:

Scott, thanks for being there to explain my thoughts, while i was away in a 2-hour meeting, LOL! :)

Prin
December 13th, 2006, 03:07 PM
LOL well, that would have saved me and Scott a page! :D

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 03:13 PM
if this were true, then humans who were allergic to the raw version of a certain food woud do ok with the cooked one, but we know this to be untrue. people with food allergies are reactive to both the raw and cooled form of the food. i don't see why it would be any different for dogs.

simple: dogs are NOT humans, and their anatomical responses are different than ours. i don't see what's so hard to understand about that. :shrug: why not compare how humans process food to how fish or crocodiles process foods? same difference.

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 03:16 PM
LOL well, that would have saved me and Scott a page!

no no, debates are a good thing as long as they remain civil :highfive:

Prin
December 13th, 2006, 03:17 PM
And like I said before, the heat used in dog food extrusion is much higher than heat used for human foods. That's also why dogs who are super intolerant to a certain food within a dog food can eat it fine if you cook it up on the stove.:shrug:

LL1
December 13th, 2006, 03:28 PM
simple: dogs are NOT humans, and their anatomical responses are different than ours. i don't see what's so hard to understand about that. :shrug: why not compare how humans process food to how fish or crocodiles process foods? same difference.

I agree marines girlie, the immune response system,aside from very small differences,is the same for all mammals as far as I am aware,certainly the same as far foreign proteins,so it would be the same for cooked and raw.

And I agree Prin,home cooked versus kibble are 2 very different things.

Prin
December 13th, 2006, 03:41 PM
Ok, so low temp cooked (like on a stove) and raw cause the same allergic reaction, but the ultra high temps of extrusion and other processes to make dog food alter things and change the reactivity. Right?

marine's girlie
December 13th, 2006, 04:43 PM
My understanding is that denatured (cooked) protein is more likely to be recognised as a foreign protein by the dog's body, which can cause an allergic reaction - while in humans it is the contrary. canines possess a very different inner anatomy than humans, they are designed by nature to eat, digest and process raw meat while we do better with cooked foods.

here is a wonderfully detailed, yet simple, explanation & outline: http://b-naturals.com/Sep2005.php

according to this article, the emptying time of the human stomach in a normal subject is about 4 hours, give or take 39 minutes (248 +/- 39 min) not the 30-60 min claimed by the quote. current thought in anthropology is that cooking was adapted as a way of breaking down food to make it more digestible not to deal with parasite issues. meat eating (raw) predates cooking (presumably tubers) in the archaeological record.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3896910&dopt=Abstract

here are articles on salmonella and dogs which refute the idea that dogs are any better equipped to deal with foodborne pathogens than people are, at any rate, asymptomatic dogs can act as carriers and a source of infection to their human caretakers as well as succumb themselves:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1439-0450.2004.00785.x?journalCode=jvb

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=10027169&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_DocSum

there's more, just look on pubmed



also techno mentions: "Bitzane said that a protein’s function determines its shape. “When you mess up that shape, it’s called denaturation,” she said. Cooking causes a protein to lose its shape and its ability to perform its original function. "

but the original function is only relevent in a living functioning being. once removed from the animal, "meat" functions as a source of amino acids and other nutrients. the pepsin in the stomach acids function to break down the structure of proteins so that the individual amino acids can be re-used. cooking does the same thing. the stomach uses pH change and enzymes, cooking uses heat. two processes that perform the same function.
again, the temperature range that i found for kibble precessing is around 250F while food is baked in home ovens at much higher temperatures (350-500F). i fail to see how 250F is considered "ultra high" temp when my oven is routinelyheated to 325F or more. stove tops get at least as hot as well. i'm embarassed to say how many things i've had to scrape off my stovetop after placing thm there, not realizing that it is still hot from making something.

marine's girlie
December 13th, 2006, 05:12 PM
simple: dogs are NOT humans, and their anatomical responses are different than ours. i don't see what's so hard to understand about that. :shrug: why not compare how humans process food to how fish or crocodiles process foods? same difference.

comparing fish and crocodiles to humans and dogs is not the "same difference". fish and reptiles are ectothermic, mammals are not. and that's just the short version of the differences. just as there are themes that run through reptilian (or fish) digestion there are themes that run through all mammalian digestive systems. physiologically, all mammals have certain features in common as well as components that act with the same mechanistic characteristics. this can be seen in functions from muscle contraction to the release and regulation of glucose. mammalian physiology is mammalian physiology regardless of the name of the organism. like i said: tangerines to oranges not apples to oranges. or for those that prefer adult beverages: its the difference between red wine and white wine and the difference between wine and hard liquor.

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 06:42 PM
marine's girlie... sorry but i'm completely confused by your posts. what was your original question? you've gone all over the place... :confused:

Note: this is not a place to critique raw vs cooked for pets. there is a food forum for those who feed kibble or cooked or other, and a forum for those who feed raw. This happened to avoid endless debates and arguments. Just making sure you understand i am not here to say which method is better, we were discussing dog allergies as seen in those eating cooked foods vs raw foods. that's it. ;)

Scott_B
December 13th, 2006, 07:17 PM
So they tested stool and found salmonella. Big deal. Dont eat your dogs poo and you should be fine lol. Why do we cook chicken? Because most of it contains salmonella. imo, if you eat chicken, or hamburger yourself, there is no difference in handling the meat. And one case of a dog being sick really doesnt say much, when you consider the amount of dogs that eat raw and never get sick. I'm sure if i went digging I could find a dog that got sick from a kibble.

marine's girlie
December 13th, 2006, 07:24 PM
i never stated that raw was better than kibble or vice versa. i realize this is not the place to debate that, but i was attempting to correct to what i perceived as misconceptions in the previous posts (eg dogs are resistant to parasites, so they can and should eat a raw food, cooked allergens are more reactive than raw ones, etc). that tract wasn't started by me, i just responded to the direction of the conversation. someone else brought up raw and then the convenience or inconvenience, then the benefits of feeding a raw diet. i stayed out of that, but i put in what i did as a by-the-way, with credible references.
soooo.. back to the allergy idea...my original post was disagreeing with a statement that raw foods are not allergenic while cooked ones are. in a truly allergic dog or human, they will both be misinterpreted by the immune system as an invader.

i was also disagreeing with you that one cannot draw correlations between allergic mechanisms in dogs and humans. i think there can be parallels drawn and the point i was making is that it still doesn't make sense to me that a raw food item will not incite an allergic response while the cooked one will. you said that comparing dogs to humans was like comparing humans to fish, and i disagree completely. dogs and humans have much more in common than either have with fish. the outward signs are different, but the underlying mechanism is the same. therefore, simply feeding a raw diet in my view doesn't "cure" or "solve" allergy problems, but feeding a raw diet devoid of the individual's allergenic foods can. the same goes for a kibble.

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 07:37 PM
my original post was disagreeing with a statement that raw foods are not allergenic while cooked ones are. in a truly allergic dog or human, they will both be misinterpreted by the immune system as an invader.


ok - so explain to me how dogs allergic to certain meats in kibble or cooked, can eat them fine in a raw state (have no allergic reactions) :confused: this is not theory, this "phenomena" happens all the time.

therefore, simply feeding a raw diet in my view doesn't "cure" or "solve" allergy problems, but feeding a raw diet devoid of the individual's allergenic foods can. the same goes for a kibble.


i respectfully disagree, see above for why. :pawprint:

Prin
December 13th, 2006, 07:37 PM
Why do we cook chicken? Because most of it contains salmonella. imo, if you eat chicken, or hamburger yourself, there is no difference in handling the meat. Actually, not all chicken has salmonella. It's supposed to be far less than half of the chickens out there. And even then the virulence of the salmonella itself might differ from infected chicken to chicken.:shrug:

Blathach
December 13th, 2006, 07:40 PM
This thread has run its course and will now be closed. The original question from the OP has been answered.