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Breeders (my opinion)

Twisted_Angel
November 23rd, 2006, 10:53 PM
Alright, I may make some people mad with this, but that is not my intention. This is all simply my opinon.

1) Pure breds are NOT worth more than mutts. The best dog I have ever had was a mutt.
2) Breeders are breeders, period. Someone who breeds Labradoodles and Goldendoodles are NOT "bad breeders" just because they don't breed dogs registered with the AKC, etc. There are good breeders of so-called designer dogs, and there are horrible breeders of pure-bred dogs.
3) I have heard that nobody who spend 500+ dollars on a pure-bred dog with clear health and no genetic defects would breed it to produce a "mutt". NOT TRUE. A lot of "mutts" have an intended purpose, and all "pure-breds" were mutts at one time.
4) People should ban ALL breeding or leave it alone. Period. Nobody has the right to tell anyone else they can't breed a particular healthy, friendly, well-tempered dog just because it isn't pure bred, and then turn around and breed another dog with the same health and temperment because it is pure-bred. We have enough dogs right now, we are overpopulated. Pure-breds are NOT excluded from this. Dogs are dogs. One is not better than another because of who its parents were. ALL breeding should be banned or left alone. There is no difference between breeding two dobermans and breeding two mongrels. The importance lies in health and temperment.
5) There is no such thing as an evil, mean breed. A dogs temperment depends on how it is raised and handled. Some breeds are more predisposed to protective or dominant behavior, but if handled correctly, can be sweet and loveable. The gentlest dog I have ever had was a pit-bull and doberman mix. The most aggressive dog I have ever had was a toy poodle. Take this into consideration, when a doberman, rottie, or pittie bites someone, it is one of the top stories on the news. If someone is bitten by a lab or spaniel it is shown once, maybe. Or not shown at all. Hundreds of people are bitten by dogs every day. Only certain cases involving certain breeds get media attention. This has destroyed the reputation of many breeds that don't deserve the bad rep.


Feel free to post with comments. I don't expect many to agree with me, but I want to hear everyone elses opinons. I want to hear the other side of the story. All I ask is that it is kept civil. Thanks.

erykah1310
November 23rd, 2006, 11:07 PM
Alright, I may make some people mad with this, but that is not my intention. This is all simply my opinon.

2) Breeders are breeders, period. Someone who breeds Labradoodles and Goldendoodles are NOT "bad breeders" just because they don't breed dogs registered with the AKC, etc. There are good breeders of so-called designer dogs, and there are horrible breeders of pure-bred dogs.


Not really! They are bad breeders because they are in it for the money... there is no reason to breed mix breed dogs and pass them off as a breed, check the stickys about designer breeds.

4) People should ban ALL breeding or leave it alone. Period. Nobody has the right to tell anyone else they can't breed a particular healthy, friendly, well-tempered dog just because it isn't pure bred, and then turn around and breed another dog with the same health and temperment because it is pure-bred. We have enough dogs right now, we are overpopulated. Pure-breds are NOT excluded from this. Dogs are dogs. One is not better than another because of who its parents were. ALL breeding should be banned or left alone. There is no difference between breeding two dobermans and breeding two mongrels. The importance lies in health and temperment.

Yes one is better than another because of who its parents are. Im not saying that people who have mixed breed dogs have crappy dogs, by all means, but I do have to say that when a breeder makes serious choices and does countless tests to find the perfect mate for thier dog to BETTER THE BREED and breed to standard, this is an excellent pup. I think you are confusing ethical breeders with byb's

I have heard that nobody who spend 500+ dollars on a pure-bred dog with clear health and no genetic defects would breed it to produce a "mutt". NOT TRUE. A lot of "mutts" have an intended purpose, and all "pure-breds" were mutts at one time.

Yes BUT... they werent being sold off first generation with corny names like oodles and uggles and so on. It was a long, long process, to ensure that all the desired traits were in fact true! The claims of the non shedding oodles also are explained in the sticky. and what inteded purpose would you look for in a mutt? To go out on a search for a breeder of a labradoodle for example, what is the intended purpose of that mix?? Other than the claims of the BYB???

So, IMO it seems that you have just signed up and not read anything that has already been discussed here, so you are going to get alot of disagreements to your opinion. However you already know that, thanks for sharing your opinion and I must say that perhaps a better understanding of "ethical breeders" would have helped some of your points.

Twisted_Angel
November 23rd, 2006, 11:15 PM
I have looked at the stickies. I simply do not believe that a purebred dog is worth more than a mutt that has the same health and personality. I simply don't understand how one dog is better than another if both dogs have parents that are healthy, well-tempered, and free of gentic defects.

I have seen, talked to, and researched many ethical breeders who breed for health and temperment, and only have one litter every two years or so. Like I said, I do not see how there is a difference when dogs of equal genetic quality and temperment are used.

MyBirdIsEvil
November 23rd, 2006, 11:26 PM
I have looked at the stickies. I simply do not believe that a purebred dog is worth more than a mutt that has the same health and personality. I simply don't understand how one dog is better than another if both dogs have parents that are healthy, well-tempered, and free of gentic defects.

You can't know the expected temperment or health issues of the puppies just because the parents are healthy and well tempered.

Reputable breeders know the temperment and health issues much further back than just the parents. No reputable breeder of purebreds breeds 2 dogs together just because they're nice healthy dogs.
Reputable breeders of pure-bred dogs look at the conformation and temperment of the parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. and then decide whether or not to breed. When a breeder does NOT look at issues further back than just the parents, that is when you're likely to end up with dogs who have severe genetic and health issues.

Prin
November 23rd, 2006, 11:39 PM
Show me ONE designer dog breeder who does genetic testing.

And I agree with the rest of what MBIE and Erykah said too.

Prin
November 23rd, 2006, 11:42 PM
Aha, methinks the OP is getting a designer puppy and has come to convince us it's a good idea.

and 1 puppy on the way - Kaiden

Am I wrong?

erykah1310
November 23rd, 2006, 11:45 PM
Yes Prin, and has done all kinds of research on them :rolleyes:
Good dectective work!:thumbs up

Prin
November 23rd, 2006, 11:48 PM
So if the breeder is already decided on, the OP should have the proof we're looking for handy.;)

So any genetic testing, maybe thyroid testing (depending on the breed), some eye/hip/elbow testing?

erykah1310
November 23rd, 2006, 11:52 PM
and please A lot of "mutts" have an intended purpose, what is the desired purpose???
Really?

mafiaprincess
November 23rd, 2006, 11:57 PM
On other boards the designer mutt advocates keep praising their mix breeds as the bestest companion animals.. Seems they forgot the AKC already recognizes a bunch of those, that breed true, have responsible breeders in this world, who genetic test, and are trying to better the breed, not better their pocket.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 12:01 AM
For every need, there is always a pure breed.

oo that rhymes!:D

I love mutts too, but I would NEVER be responsible for bringing a new mutt into the world when there are so many out there getting euthanized every minute of every day for lack of forever homes for them.

Twisted_Angel
November 24th, 2006, 12:08 AM
I am NOT getting a "designer dog" I am getting a puppy from a litter up the street, that is to be shipped off to the pound if they aren't all gone at 12 weeks. The father of the puppies is aussie/bc/redbone hound, the mom is chow/golden/who knows what her father was. does that sound like a designer dog? I have already chosen the name because I happen to like Celtic names. I just don't agree that purebreds are better than mutts, thats all. I do not advocate breeding of ANY dogs in our current situation, but I don't think its right that people who breed "purebreds" can knock people who don't. All dogs are equally loving, deserving companions.

FYI, all my dogs are/have been neutered and Kaiden is no exception. He will be neutered as soon as he is old enough.

erykah1310
November 24th, 2006, 12:12 AM
People who have purebreds usually dont knock those who dont, but people who work hard to better their breed and ensure that there will be no irresponsible breeding taking place once the pups are placed are not bad breeders!

Rescuers and people who are active in some way with rescues ( like the vast majority of this site) DO knock BYB's of anykind. Purebreds, or mutts. Not the dogs but the people!

I have mixed breed dogs and prefer purebreds, but that doesnt make my dogs any less special to me! And just because yes i can name all the breeds in my dogs ( who are basically designer but not purchased) doesnt make mine any better than the pup you are going to get.
In any way shape or form. The only thing that makes MY dogs better than anyone elses dogs is the fact they are mine!;)

mafiaprincess
November 24th, 2006, 12:12 AM
It isn't that people are 'breeding purebreds knocking people who don't.' No one here would advocate a breeder of any breed not doing it all right. CH titles, good temperaments, health testing, 1-2 litters a year and all the rest

Doesn't matter if it a goldendoodle thing, or a frenchie. No one supports crummy breeding practices, and you seem to have it all compiled together as one issue.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 12:15 AM
So we're not supposed to "knock" the people you're getting your dog from who are threatening to drop all those dogs off at a shelter? What?


btw I hope they're decent enough to let the litter stay together till at least 8 weeks. They usually aren't decent enough, especially when they're threatening to dump them all.

How can you say that shows ANY respect for dogs?

Twisted_Angel
November 24th, 2006, 12:19 AM
I guess basically what I want to know is, with all the puppies and dogs out there that need a home, why breed ANY? The collie I had two years ago didn't mean more to me than the pit/dobie mix. It just makes me mad that breeders complain about all the overpopulation of pets and then turn around and breed their dogs because somehow since they are purebred they don't count when it comes to overpopulation. Its like "Hey, there are at least 20 dogs at the shelter, why don't I produce a litter of puppies and take homes from some of them?" I don't care if the litter is purebred, I don't care if the breeder is ethical, it is WRONG and in my opinon nobody who does it has the right to criticize anybody else.

I am in NO way defending them. To be frank, how they treat their dogs is disgusting. They feed them Alpo, and by feed I mean dump the whole bag on the ground behind the house so the dogs can free-feed off of the GROUND and fight because there is never enough for them all. their idea of training a dog is kicking it enough that it learns not to get under anyones feet, and they let their dogs breed all they want to, and when a dog gets sick, they shoot it or dump it. I am saying, don't create more puppies so that Kaidens littermates are put down because everybody wants and has access to a purebred dog.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 12:21 AM
The thing is responsible, reputable breeders don't add to the overflowing shelters.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 12:22 AM
Are you paying for your puppy?

Twisted_Angel
November 24th, 2006, 12:24 AM
No. I consider what I am doing "rescuing" him and I wish I was capable of taking them all out of that situation.

mafiaprincess
November 24th, 2006, 12:26 AM
Good breeders will take back their dogs for life if need be, and often have the microchip in their name and the puppy parent name so worst case, they'll get that call. They usually have long waiting lists, so puppies are long sold before born, and decent breeders are often involved in rescue.

Try again.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 12:28 AM
Is the breeder neutering the dog? If not, you might end up with a whole house of rescues each a few months apart in age.;)

Twisted_Angel
November 24th, 2006, 12:31 AM
No, there will be another litter in six months or so, but my dog, not the family dog, MY dog that I took care of alone, recently died and I wanted another puppy. I decided to get Kaiden rather than go to a breeder, he needs it. I WANT to help them all, but I am not stupid enough to think I CAN. I will have to be content with Kaiden, because frankly he is all I can afford to care for and if I get them all but can only halfway take care of them all then I am no better than my neighbors.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 12:33 AM
You know, you could save up a sort of "adoption fee" and offer to bring their dog to get spayed.:shrug:

And BYBs aren't the only place to rescue a puppy from, btw.

Twisted_Angel
November 24th, 2006, 12:35 AM
I am not trying to say all breeders are bad, I am trying to say that breeding any dog at this point is bad. I don't know how to explain it. There are enough dogs here already, so I think that regardless of pedigree, regardless of intentions, regardless of how good and ethical the breeder is, there should be NO more breeding until the population thing is under control.

Impossible I know. But it would be nice if dogs weren't being put down everyday because nobody wants them if they can just go buy a dog with a pedigree that is "better" because it is "purebred". I have volunteered in a shelter, and it upsets me. A LOT.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 12:37 AM
Stopping the good breeders won't stop the overpopulation. That's what I'm trying to get you to understand. Stopping the puppymills and bybs would. Encouraging a byb by buying one of its puppies, for example, is something to strongly avoid.

Twisted_Angel
November 24th, 2006, 12:39 AM
Hah. They wouldn't let me, even if I paid them too. They would get mad and say they didn't need a handout and that they would take care of their dogs how they wanted too and that it was none of my business.

I know. I was going to get one of the shelter dogs actually, but I've been set on Kaiden since Manda showed him to me. I don't know why, I just have.

Twisted_Angel
November 24th, 2006, 12:48 AM
I understand that you can't just stop the good breeders, I know they aren't the source of the problem, but wouldn't stopping ALL breeding be more effective? Though I don't suppose you could do that withough completely destroying all lines, which wouldn't be good. I don't know, I just don't want any more good dogs put down. There isn't really a complete solution is there?

I wouldn't be getting Kaiden if they were selling the pups. I know better than to encourage them with money.

Do you know what its like to work at a shelter and get close to every dog you work with, to grow to love them all for their individual personalities, to basically raise some of the puppies, and to have to watch the majority of them put down because nobody wants them? And to be unable to help because you already have a dog and your parents won't let you get another? To have to take some of those dogs to that room yourself? I had to quit volunteering, I couldn't take it anymore. Then Lucky died three months ago. I can get another dog, and I can't think of any one that needs me more than Kaiden does. They say they will drop him off. They will probably just shoot him. Or they may even keep him, and he will end up even worse off.

I don't expect you to understand what I mean, I don't understand exactly what I want. I guess I am just thinking with my feelings instead of my head, but if you had seen what I saw at that shelter, you might understand where I am coming from.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 01:01 AM
Maybe you should lurk around here more... You'll see that this board is heavy on the rescue. Shelters, overpopulation, mass euthanasia of good dogs- it's not news to us and it's always heartbreaking.

There isn't really a complete solution is there?No, but stopping the wrong people won't help.

I'm certainly not an authority on this as the rescues are, but from my point of view, what would help is charging way more (as Toronto does) for licenses for unneutered dogs than neutered ones, and more legislation to protect the animals along with more enforcement...

What stops cities from charging $200 for a license for an unneutered dog? If the license for a neutered one is $30, the difference is almost the price of a neuter. But then again, you'd need people to enforce the laws and have hefty fines when people don't comply for it to work.:shrug:

Twisted_Angel
November 24th, 2006, 01:09 AM
I'll stick around, don't worry. I haven't seen much of the site yet, I've been waiting for a reply on the raw food forum. Its hard to see the good when you've been inside to see the suffering. I apoligize if I seemed childish or if I offended anybody.

That sounds like a good idea, but it wouldn't be enforced at all around here. Nobody even enforces the laws about illegal dog fights. I live in Mississippi, capital of the "its just a stupid dog" mentality. It ticks me off.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 01:18 AM
Yeah, I hear that... I'm in Quebec, aka puppymiller's sanctuary.:rolleyes:

erykah1310
November 24th, 2006, 01:27 AM
We live in North America, and it seems that that mentality is everywhere!:rolleyes: People suck!

CyberKitten
November 24th, 2006, 02:41 AM
Breeding is ALWAYS and with good reason a contentious issue on this site. I would venture to suggest that 99% of those of us who regularly post here loathe back yard breeders of any kind, even the well meaning kind, those who think they are going to earn some extra cash with designer aka "mutts" or "Heinz 57" breeds - and sell what one could find at a good Rescue or the "pound" (Hate that term but it is called that in some places still and gets the message across) at outrageous prices like $1500 and especially the puppy mills for which as Prin just noted, Quebec is notorious. In the US, it is states like Missouri who have a horrible rap but every jurisdiction has its share. A few weeks ago, my cousin who works for a vet ended up with yet another dog (Good thing they bought a house "in the country" since this is number 6 and I do not include cats and the hairless rat) from a byb whose operation was shut down by the police. This "puppy " - a young dog actually was in as bad a shape as any on the many web sites who seek adopters for their puppy mill survivors and this female bichon (and she looked bichon but who is to say she was not part poodle, lassa apso, etc, etc) was matted, sick, has a heart murmur and may be 2 but then she may be 1 year old (who knows?), her feet are full of sores from living in wires cages in the Gaspé - and God knows she prob was frost bitten at some point in her sad young life. But I am getting away from my response to your points.

I profoundly disagree with you T Angel. You wrote "I am getting a puppy from a litter up the street, that is to be shipped off to the pound if they aren't all gone at 12 weeks". That is a back yard breeder, hardly well intentioned but if I were a neighbour of this individual, I would take all the puppies, bring them to a good rescue (NOT the pound though some rescues do indeed "pull" some lucky puppies - but it is pure Russian Roulette - and if they are not purebreds, unlikely. Sad to say but that's the way it is. What is going to happen to your new family member to be's mama? Will you have her spayed her? Prin gave you an excellent suggestion - spay mama and maybe save her life and certainly the lives of other puppies. Advise the neighbour to do so? Help aforementioned neighbour to do so? She is just as much a victim - maybe more- than your puppy. Are the puppies born yet? has the dog rec'd vet care? I hate to say I can guess the answer. Or you could help the neighbour find good homes - as opposed to the free to good home ads that may have been planned. There are many good rescues that will help in that area - courtesy ads even though they have more dogs than they can handle.

May I be so bold as to ask if you did not obtain this puppy from your neighbour, where would you purchase a puppy? I am assuming not at a pet store since you indicated you did not want a designer/ pure bred (not that those poor furbabies can be guaranteed to be healthy. A Rescue which may charge $150 to $200 but never recovers its costs in caring for the many many puppies they are inundated with?

I say bravo to anyone who adopts a dog at a shelter. Personally, all my dogs have been a specific breed but that was because initially, they were family pets (as a child) and then as an adult, I wanted a certain breed. A pet is a lifetime commitment and do if you are going to add a new family member, one tends to look for the kind of dog best suited to you. And there are many purebreds at shelters - up to 25% of dogs in shelters are purebreds.

Please do not be too quick to be so judgemental. You have no idea why people buy the kind of dogs or cats or rabbits they want.This is the essential (sort of Coles/Cliff's Notes ver of a definition of what constitutes a reputable breeder

- a breeder who breeds only dogs who have won significant championships and meet the criteria for standard of the breed
- They have been in the field for awhile and are not in it for the money. Most in fact are hobbyists and it costs them more than they ever earn from the sales of their dogs. Any breeder who makes a profit from selling kittens and puppies is someone you probably want to stay away from. (Unless there is some compelling reason as to why they made a tiny profit. It does happen once in a blue moon but I do not personally know any good breeder who has ever made money from it.)
- They have been mentored from when they first began to show their puppy or kitten by someone reputable and learned how to navigate the byantine process of dog and cat shows - and that is a world with a culture all its own. <g> More, norms et al.
- They do not sell their kittens until they are 12 weeks old and their puppies until they are 10 weeks and they have a vet on speed dial. Their vet bills are higher than the GNP of a small oil refinery.
- They are extremely selective about who they sell their kittens and puppies to and investigate potential adopters as if they were the FBI, Secret Service, CSIS and KGB combined.
- Their contracts stipulate that if something happens to the adopter and his or her family and they cannot keep rhe dog, they must be notified. The contract says they will take the dog back (and the contract is null and void) if the "owner" does anything that hurts their puppy (or kitten). ie - they care about where their "babies" go. Most have a code of ethics adopters are required to sign.
- They prob know as much as any vet about the particular breed they specialize in a good breeder tends not to breed more than two types of breeds. Most breed one kind of dog. They can tell you the genetic background and lineage of the dog back to before Canada or the US were on the map. This is not snobbery or eugenics. It has everything to do with understanding the particular genetic issues all breeds have. Some breeds are affected by certain traits and they conduct genetic testing on ALL of their dogs. (or cats)
- They breed only dogs physically and mentally mature enough to deliver healthy puppies. This means at least 2 yrs old in most cases. (Thus, never buy a dog from a breeder unless the sire and dam are at least 2 yrs old).\-- - They rarely sell a dog in advance. Some do but more and more, this is an ethical issue.
- Their dogs (or cats) are members of their household, not residing in some separate part of the home.
- Good breeders spay or neuter their puppies or kittens BEFORE they are adopted unless one is purchased a show quality dog and this will cost much much more. Anyone who sells puppies should do this to avoid having a puppy exploited by a puppy mill
-Not all registries are equal. So only reputable breeders will register with the appropriate org. Puppy mills and their pet stores sell dogs with certificates that are meaningless.


I know I am forgetting a ton of info but those are a few things that differentiate caring reputable breeders from the wannabe byb's who think they can make a quick buck but rarely do.

From the consumer perspective, the health of a potential puppy is also important. Do you know this dog;s health history? Her vet background? Will the owner share t with you? Allow you to talk to her vet? Does the dog have any predisposition to genetic diseases? )I guess you would have to research ll the various breeds involved there - and no, it is not true that mutts are healthier than purebreds. A dog is healthy is it comes from a healthy parents and has a good genetic background and is cared for properly throughout his or her life. Healthy mutts usually produce healthy dogs but you have no way of knowing what genetic issues lurk in those tiny double helixes.

This site should be required treading fr anyone who thinks they can breed their dog just because she or he looks cute or for whatever other ridiculous reason. I need not enumerate them - most of us have heard them ad nauseam.

http://www.angelfire.com/in/kissamikennel/breeding.html

You could also have suggested your neighbour have the puppies aborted. If she is so anxious to bring them to the pound, why did she allow the pregnancy to go so far?

I like any dog - mutts, purebreds - it does not matter. But I just happen to have been given a poodle as a gift from an excellent breeder and later wanted another purebred so I knew from whence the dog came and what to expect and thus I purchased a purebred dog. I have seen some equally stunning mixed dogs too though and frankly, see little difference. I have three cats now however - all of whom are purebreds and have a lineage and genealogy longer than my own, lol, (It is just that I adore Siamese kitties and the Sphynx cats a friend who died left me in her living will.) I loved my Dwarf Netherland bunny just as much however and still grieve for him. 9He was at one time the oldest domestic bunny in the country, at least that we knew of, lol He was older than the alleged oldest living domestic bun in the Guinness Book of Records but I did not care about that. I loved him because he was who he was. A fun furball who was playful, smart and one of the best companions I ever had!

We can never stop all the breeding. It would be wonderful to find homes for all the dogs and cats and rabbits (Don't forget the bunnies!) who need homes. And I hate to say never - but so many ppl want a certain kind of breed. I volunteer with Siamese rescue and that is where my next meezer will come from. I actually hoped to find a meezer rescue when I found mine but I fell i love with a tiny kitten one day at a reputable breeder's home and the rest is history, lol (She is show quality but spayed!!! I have been to a few cats shows and I am sure YY would win them all, as the Syphnx girls have when they lived with their deceased mama - but that is a culture I am not yet ready for.

Anyway - that is enough, I have to get to work and try to save some human babies!

Good luck with your puppy but please take her for a thorough vet check up and try to have her mama spayed. You could very well save her life!!





-

happycats
November 24th, 2006, 06:16 AM
Welcome Twisted Angel.
I have a diference of opinion then most here when it comes to breeding. I belive there should be NO breeding of any dog until there is a shortage of them!
And I totally agree with you, in my opinion there is really no difference between a pure bred breeder and a mutt breeder, they are both contributing to the pet overpopulation problem.
The only exception to this would be an actual working dog, like a hearding dog for the farms. and certain breeds for search and rescue.
But other then that I see no need to breed (I rhyme too:p )

Rottielover
November 24th, 2006, 08:25 AM
well I guess you should find out why the people up the street decided not to spay/neueter the dogs????? That is irresponsible.
I am sorry I have had mutts, I now have a breeders dog. I love them all the same. But the huge difference is that this COE breeder does health testing, eyes, hips, elbows, heart, and she shows to the standard of the breed.
Does that make harley to be a better dog than any of my other dogs I had...NO....But at least I know what breed characteristics I was getting, and what I needed for my family.
Too many people do not, and dogs go to the pound.

happycats
November 24th, 2006, 09:14 AM
There is zero logic and sense in that statement. Why? OK say nobody breeds any dogs anymore, because shelters are overflowing and all that. Fine. What happens 10 years from now? Over half the dog population in the world is gone, and the other half are geratric seniors who can't produce anymore, and from what viable breeding stock is left who can guarantee genotype, health, breed characteristics (think of the rare breeds), etc? So you are basically saying, with this nonesense statement, that you want the canine species extinct in less than two decades. riiiiight. :clown:


I said "until there is a shortage"!!!! I didn't say extinct!
And I'm sorry to say, but many people get a "pure bred" mainly for the attention!!
So call it nonesense if you like, but I think it's "nonesense"to be killing, gasing, dumping, and abusing so many dogs, to to the overpopulation problem, just so many can have that "pure bred" dog, for no other purpose then, colour, shedding, status, size and attention!

happycats
November 24th, 2006, 09:21 AM
Also, why purebreds are BETTER than mutts: you know what you are getting in terms of physical attributes, general breed traits, size, temperament, etc. when you get a mixed-breed puppy it's russian roulette, the dog can grow up to be anything - how many dogs get dumped at shelters because "oh he grew too big" or "he needs to much exercise" or "she sheds too much"? of course this also happens with purebreds but less frequently, as ethical breeders screen their clients with care (emphasis on the ethical) and would not sell a puppy into an inappropriate home (i am excluding puppymills and BYBs from this statement, as they don't care and do contribute to the overpopulation problem by not following these basic rules).


I don;t believe purebreds are "better" many have been plaqued with desease and genetic defects due to overbreeding and inbreeding!
You NEVER know the tempermnet of any dog you get, anything can change wehter "pure" or not! And I see just as many pure bred dogs as mutts on petfinders.
I have known many people who have gone to "reputable" breeders (did endless amounts of research before chosing ) and really the bottom line was money! They claim to care what happens , but if the dog becomes a problem or inconvenience they aren't so likely to take them back.
So you an keep on telling youself, that purebreds, and ethical breeding is better, that's fine by me. But I also have a right to my opinion without being insulted.

happycats
November 24th, 2006, 09:23 AM
happycats, your general broad comment is very insulting to me, and to all purebred owners out there. You are saying i got my two purebred akitas to get attention and have a "status" when i walk down the street? or did i misunderstand your comment (i sure hope i did). I LOVE being able to choose a breed based on size, shedding factor, activity level, etc - and so do most people on this planet, even those who love and own mutts still like purebreds.

And just because mutts exist does not mean purebreds shouldn't! that again makes no sense :frustrated:


I said "many people" !! I never said you!

And you saying my comments are nonscence and make no sense is insulting to me. I have a right to my opinions!

erykah1310
November 24th, 2006, 09:25 AM
I said "until there is a shortage"!!!! I didn't say extinct!
And I'm sorry to say, but many people get a "pure bred" mainly for the attention!!
So call it nonesense if you like, but I think it's "nonesense"to be killing, gasing, dumping, and abusing so many dogs, to to the overpopulation problem, just so many can have that "pure bred" dog, for no other purpose then, colour, shedding, status, size and attention!

Whoa whoa... Meik was an irresponsible purchase on my behalf and I didnt know ANYTHING about Border Collies when i got him, so yeah he's kinda messed up ( training and temperment wise) but regardless I would get another Border Collie now that i am more familiar with the breed. They are amazing brainiacs, dont think for a moment that I would do it for attention because no one really comments on BC's (round here anyway) Frankly, no one really gives a hoot bout him but me.
I just love the general appearance, intellegence, coat, coloring, temperment(now that he has been "fixed up") among other things. He is not my status symbol... I would say my car is :D lol

But yeah, i see this thread getting closed soon. SO just had to input my thoughts here

LM1313
November 24th, 2006, 09:28 AM
Also, why purebreds are BETTER than mutts: you know what you are getting in terms of physical attributes, general breed traits, size, temperament, etc. when you get a mixed-breed puppy it's russian roulette, the dog can grow up to be anything - how many dogs get dumped at shelters because "oh he grew too big" or "he needs to much exercise" or "she sheds too much"? of course this also happens with purebreds but less frequently, as ethical breeders screen their clients with care (emphasis on the ethical) and would not sell a puppy into an inappropriate home (i am excluding puppymills and BYBs from this statement, as they don't care and do contribute to the overpopulation problem by not following these basic rules).

Whoa there! Purebreds aren't "better" than mutts. They're more predictable than mutts. That's a huge difference. There are plenty of breeds that I'd pass over, based on their traits, and take the risk of a mutt instead.

I don't agree with the OP's statement that no one should breed . . . Realistically, if reputable breeders didn't breed, the puppy mills/BYBs still would and everyone who wanted a golden retriever or lab would go to them (as opposed to now, when only MOST of them go to them. :frustrated: ), but I also don't think the OP's to be faulted for rescuing a puppy from the litter the guy down the street had. She doesn't own an unspayed dog, she can't force the man to have the dog spayed, she isn't giving the man any money. Obviously she's planning to have the puppy she gets spayed/neutered.

A lot of "mutts" have an intended purpose,

what is the desired purpose???
Really?[/quote][/quote]

Although MOST mutts are produced due to irresponsibility, in some cases they do indeed serve a useful purpose such as herding or dog sledding. Working dogs, in other words. Purebred Siberian huskies cannot beat mixed breed Alaskan huskies because Alaskan huskies have been bred SOLELY for work and drive. Many AKC border collies have been "dumbed down" and no longer have the instincts and drive necessary for herding; "real" border collies are similar to Alaskan huskies in that they're judged by their drive and abilities, not their appearance.

Of course, designer dogs and "the neighbor's dog is so nice so we bred him to my nice dog to get nice puppies" are examples of IRRESPONSIBLE breeding of mutts.

erykah1310
November 24th, 2006, 09:35 AM
Now that statement on the Border Collies is exactly my arguing point on show dogs... that thread is long dead now:rip:
IF i ever get another from a breeder ( a real ethical breeder this time) it will be out of working lines not show.

The argument here can get so wide spread and could be misconstrued as a thread jack so that is all i will say about that.

But... if I wanted a herding dog, i wouldnt take an aussie shep/border cross! or an Aussie cattle/border cross... Each breed has their distinctive trait and "managerial approaches" ie BC's with the eye and nips as apposed to ACD who are less likely to nip or take to aggression to herd the livestock...:shrug: mix them up and what do you get??? who can tell? both attributes are there, so if you dont want a known nipper, how can you choose your pup???

meb999
November 24th, 2006, 09:36 AM
http://bestsmileys.com/poking/2.gif

erykah1310
November 24th, 2006, 09:39 AM
Who ya poking MEB??

meb999
November 24th, 2006, 09:41 AM
Who ya poking MEB??

I'm not the one doing the poking http://foolstown.com/sm/wink.gif

erykah1310
November 24th, 2006, 09:42 AM
Oh so we are poking you ;)

happycats
November 24th, 2006, 11:14 AM
but HC... do you personally know any of these people, or are you just making an assumption?... :confused: I know of people (personally) who on purpose breed mean-@ss mutts to in fact "gain status with an unusual-looking dog", so where do we lump these folks?...

Yes I do, many actually.
I know someone with an Akita who just LOVES it when she walks him and everyone asks her "what kind of dog is that?" or "He's huge"or "he looks mean"
I also know someone who got a Keeshond because they looked "cute" :rolleyes:
I know someone who got a GSD, to scare people.
I also know someone who got a Boxer to look cool, and got a second one so they could breed them so all their friends could have one, and look cool too!
I know someone who got a Rotti, because he drives a tow truck, and used the dog to scare people away from his truck.
I also want to note that many of these people no longer have these dogs, and the breeder didn't take them back.
I know many more, would you like me to continue?

LM1313
November 24th, 2006, 11:29 AM
But with those kind of people, they probably didn't go to a good breeder to begin with. Good breeders screen so they don't get the "I want a chihuahua because Paris Hilton has one" people.

I agree that there are a lot of people who get purebreds as status symbols, but the same could be said about mutts, via the "designer breeds."

Irresponsible people are irresponsible people, no matter what kind of dog they choose. :(

Twisted_Angel
November 24th, 2006, 12:02 PM
Well this is causing more argument than I thought it would.

I do NOT believe badly of or have anything against people with pure-bred dogs. I have owned my share and they were all good dogs. But they WERE from working lines. I do not see how a dogs capability to prance around a ring and look cute makes it a better dog, and breeding for this quality has taken away from the dogs ability to do their original purpose. My collie was a working dog, and I trained her on my papaw's cows. The point I have been trying to make is that my mutts have been just as "good" as my pure-bred dogs. So I don't see the point in creating any more dogs until the ones out there have homes. As for mutts being less predictable... yes puppies are. But there are plenty of adults out there. Their temperment, size, how much they shed, are already visible. You can be sure of traits you want in an adult mongrel if you take time to get to know the dog.

As for my situation with Kaiden:
The pups are already born, they can't very well abort a litter thats already born. As for spaying, they won't do it because it costs money and they just don't care. They get mad if anyone offers them anything because they see it as a handout and I guess it hurts their pride or something, I don't know. I am doing my best to find Kaiden's littermates homes.

If I was not getting Kaiden, I would get a dog from the shelter.

CyberKitten
November 24th, 2006, 12:20 PM
I can honestly say the fact my dogs were purebred had everything to do with several factors - no choice when my family made it when I was a child (hehheh), a gift in the case of my poodle- not that I condone dogs as gifts but the breeder in this case knew my family would love the dog even if I did not survive a then medical crisis (she felt a dog would help me get thru a year in a body cast - she was a smart woman, my "baby" - and my cats of course, lol were wonderful company!), I fell in love with my beagle - and had there been a beagle rescue nearby, I would have gladly adopted one (it was a time before the Internet went mainstream and we have to remember that not all of us lives in huge metropolitan areas on this board - ie, it is easier to find the breed you want in a shelter in an urban area than in a region with a small population tho the Internet has helped that process.).

That said, I do think some ppl buy purebreds for the wrong reasons but we all (sadly)know ppl who engage in unethical practices for a variety of reasons. It is just maddening when it involves living breathing animals, sigh!

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 12:25 PM
What happens 10 years from now? Over half the dog population in the world is gone, and the other half are geratric seniors who can't produce anymore, and from what viable breeding stock is left who can guarantee genotype, health, breed characteristics (think of the rare breeds), etc? So you are basically saying, with this nonesense statement, that you want the canine species extinct in less than two decades. riiiiight.Exactly- you'll eventually hit the "extinction vortex" where there aren't enough of the species to bring it back to life. In your ideal breeding-less world, you'll resort to more and more inbreeding and then where will you be?

And if you ban breeding, who is going to keep breeding? The bad ones, of course.:rolleyes: So you'd essentially be shutting down the good guys and letting the bad guys keep pumping out puppies (as we already see with the pitbulls in Ontario).

why purebreds are BETTER than mutts: you know what you are getting in terms of physical attributes, general breed traits, size, temperament, etc. when you get a mixed-breed puppy it's russian roulette, the dog can grow up to be anything - how many dogs get dumped at shelters because "oh he grew too big" or "he needs to much exercise" or "she sheds too much"? I agree. When you're an experienced dog owner it's much easier to play the "roulette" and get a mutt. I can tell you for certain had it not been me at the SPCA that day, whoever did get Boo would have most likely brought him back. Why? He looked like a lab. But he's NOT a lab. If somebody wanted a lab personality, they would have been grossly disappointed. So yes, pure breed dogs are better in the sense that you know what you are getting. Sure, there are rare deviations from the norm, but they are just that- rare deviations.

And I'm sorry to say, but many people get a "pure bred" mainly for the attention!!
oooo I so disagree. I want a newf one day. Not because I want to parade him down the street and show him off, but because of the newf characteristics that are unlike any other breed and because the part of Boo that I LOVE BEST is his newf part. I can do without the pointer part a lot of the time.;)


I don;t believe purebreds are "better" many have been plaqued with desease and genetic defects due to overbreeding and inbreeding! Get with the times! A lot of good lines are 100 times better than they ever have been. This isn't the 50's anymore. There is no excuse for breeding unhealthy dogs anymore.

I know someone with an Akita who just LOVES it when she walks him and everyone asks her "what kind of dog is that?" or "He's huge"or "he looks mean"
I also know someone who got a Keeshond because they looked "cute"
I know someone who got a GSD, to scare people.
I also know someone who got a Boxer to look cool, and got a second one so they could breed them so all their friends could have one, and look cool too!
I know someone who got a Rotti, because he drives a tow truck, and used the dog to scare people away from his truck.
I also want to note that many of these people no longer have these dogs, and the breeder didn't take them back.
I know many more, would you like me to continue?
I think you need new friends.;)



So then, if people are only in it for status and mutts are better, why don't we get rid of the breed specific rescues too then? I mean anybody who approaches, say, Golden Rescue, is only in it for looks. We don't want that right? (all sarcasm :rolleyes: )

happycats
November 24th, 2006, 12:29 PM
The sad fact is, there are plenty of "stupid" people, (I prefer to say ignorant not stupid )who know absolutely zero when it comes to dogs (and most animals for that matter). I know some very intelligent people with great jobs who are very well educated, yet who are totally ignorant when it comes to dogs, breeds, and choosing the right fit for their lifestyle, or having any dog at all for that matter.

So it's not that I know many "stupid" people, It's that so many are uneducated when it comes to animals in general.
I only know so much because animals are my passion, but most people I know don't feel as passionately as I do, and some think I'm somewhat fanitical when it comes to animals:o That's the main reason I come here, because most here truly understand my passoin, and I am sorry if you don't .

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 12:32 PM
So it's not that I know many "stupid" people, It's that so many are uneducated when it comes to animals in general.
I only know so much because animals are my passion, but most people I know don't feel as passionately as I do, and some think I'm somewhat fanitical when it comes to animals:o That's the main reason I come here, because most here truly understand my passoin, and I am sorry if you don't .Exactly why off the board, I try not to talk too much about animals with people I'm just getting to know...:o Just your ideal animally world and mine are different things. In mine, there wouldn't be any mutts. I love my mutts to death, but nobody bred them for their own good.

happycats
November 24th, 2006, 12:41 PM
Okay I don't think I am making myself clear. I don't think mutts are better then a pure bred or vice versa, I think of them all the same. The only difference I see in dogs is their size.
I think of dog's kinda like people whether they are black, yellow red blue or white, they are all the same to me. So why would I feel any differently about a mutt breeder, BYB, or so called ethical breeder, in my opinion they are ALL contributing to the pet overpopulation.
I can't stand to see "any" dog caged, pts, gased, abused, dumped like garbage, simply because there are to many. When there is less of something it becomes more valuable to people,and if it's more valuable, the chances of it sitting it a cage or pts are less likely.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 12:45 PM
I think of dog's kinda like people whether they are black, yellow red blue or white, they are all the same to me. So why would I feel any differently about a mutt breeder, BYB, or so called ethical breeder, in my opinion they are ALL contributing to the pet overpopulation. But as I said in the beginning, the reputable ones DON'T contribute. Their dogs are returned to them, because there are ample followups to know what is going on with the dog.

I know some breeders who say they'll follow up but don't. That makes them crap, IMO.

Great breeders are rare, and they should not be punished because "professional" scam artists and abusers are, well... abusing.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 12:47 PM
(i :love: those furries too!)

and wow that's a powerful statement... i love it. sadly it applies to any breeder looking to line their pockets, or any BYB too ignorant to know better, or too much of a crook to care. :frustrated:

Which is why, even though Jemma's a beautiful doggy with her black fur and blue eyes, I never even considered getting her "famous" for anything but being a loveable mutt. When people see something pretty, they want it, and I definitely don't want anybody ever breeding Jemmas ever. I love her, but we're her 5th home for a reason.

meb999
November 24th, 2006, 01:05 PM
Which is why, even though Jemma's a beautiful doggy with her black fur and blue eyes, I never even considered getting her "famous" for anything but being a loveable mutt. When people see something pretty, they want it, and I definitely don't want anybody ever breeding Jemmas ever. I love her, but we're her 5th home for a reason.

EXACTLY!!! :highfive:

The question isn't mutt vs purebred --- the problem is ethical breeding vs BYB/puppymill

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 01:10 PM
What looks like an ethical or responsible breeder is often not.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 01:12 PM
Yes, exactly. The pros are VERY good at looking like reputable/ethical breeders.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 01:18 PM
How many do people know of that fit the list cyberkitten posted?

pitgrrl
November 24th, 2006, 01:21 PM
EXACTLY!!! :highfive:

The question isn't mutt vs purebred --- the problem is ethical breeding vs BYB/puppymill

I'm actually surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, but there is also the possibility of getting pure bred dogs in rescue, so wanting a pure bred dog doesn't inherently mean that one has to go to a breeder.

For example, as long as I can find somewhere to live without BSL, I'll have APBTs. It's just a breed I like. I won't be buying one from a breeder anytime soon though, as there is no need.
My current dogs were found on the street, so they were a total crap shoot, but getting a dog from a good rescue, especially an adult, is going to give you a much greater degree of certainty about what you're getting than pretty much any other option.

For someone looking for a pet, or a dog to participate in certain sports/activities, a rescue seems like the way to go, even if you want a purebred dog, IMHO.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 01:22 PM
How many do people know of that fit the list cyberkitten posted?

I'm still looking (with Mona's help).:D...:(

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 01:25 PM
For someone looking for a pet, or a dog to participate in certain sports/activities, a rescue seems like the way to go, even if you want a purebred dog, IMHO.Honestly, if I can get a newf from rescue, I will, but at the same time, in breeds with super high incidence of genetic defects, I have the feeling that it would be so heartbreaking, you know? Sure every dog deserves a home, and proper care, but sometimes you just want one that is robust too- one that starts off with a full deck of cards, so to speak... :shrug:

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 01:34 PM
I'm actually surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, but there is also the possibility of getting pure bred dogs in rescue, so wanting a pure bred dog doesn't inherently mean that one has to go to a breeder.
For someone looking for a pet, or a dog to participate in certain sports/activities, a rescue seems like the way to go, even if you want a purebred dog, IMHO.
Yes there are all kinds of purebred dogs in rescue if that is what someone would like to adopt.

pitgrrl
November 24th, 2006, 01:41 PM
Honestly, if I can get a newf from rescue, I will, but at the same time, in breeds with super high incidence of genetic defects, I have the feeling that it would be so heartbreaking, you know? Sure every dog deserves a home, and proper care, but sometimes you just want one that is robust too- one that starts off with a full deck of cards, so to speak... :shrug:

For sure it depends on the breed, as some don't show up as often, and what you're up for dealing with. I guess my point is that you'll likely have a better idea of what you're getting into with an older (and by that I mean not a tiny puppy) rescue. It also depends on how long you're willing to wait. I know a couple of people who have waited a loooooong time to find Staffy bulls in rescue, and it did happen for them, but it took time.

I think the same can be said of health issues, not all rescues are genetic messes. Some are certainly, but others live long healthy lives, and getting a dog who's a bit older will give you a better idea of what's going on. Besides having no puppy lust what so ever, these are some of the reasons that I'd prefer to adopt a dog that was closer to a year or older.

I actually have no problem with people buying dogs from ethical breeders, but I think for most pet homes, with time and research, one can find exactly what they're looking for. Infact, I know of two people who have gotten dogs with papers from rescue in the last year, so you never know what's going to turn up.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 01:48 PM
Oh, if I could get a 2 year old newf with health clearances all over, I'm going to pounce..:D

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 01:59 PM
And you can wind up with a genetic mess from a breeder,that's where rescues come from originally really.I agree age can be helpful in knowing what is going on.What kind of health clearances would you be looking for?

OntarioGreys
November 24th, 2006, 02:07 PM
Hi Twisted Angel:

The problem people here on the forum have is not with the puppy itself the puppy is simply the victim, the problem people here have is that when you buy a puppy from an irresponsible breeder it encourages them to continue breeding, if they cannot sell their puppies, it cost them money for food and vet care and therefore discourages them from breeding more, the fate for that particular pupp(y)ies already born is bad but in the end can help spare other generations of pups from being born and overtime there would be very little need for shelters and rescues other than if the responsible breeder passed away and could no longer fullfill the obligation to take the dogs they placed back


Looking at the breeds that are in this mixed puppy litter , you have the potential to have an agressive, hyper, strong willed, dominant and vocal, that could have bad hips, deafness, severe skin problems, and dozens of other health problems simply due to what genes /traits this pup inherits or it could turn out to be a great dog with little health problems. If you are willing to accept the risks and able to manage what ever you are dealth with then fine including possible euthanizing if his temperment proves to be really awful and dangerous to people rather than just chaining or caging him up(this is a decision I had to make once and I hope never to have to do again and the reason I am for well bred pups coming from responsible breeders) , then I am glad Kaiden will have a good home,

I have had mutts that were absolutely wonderful dogs and I have also had a purebred from a back yard breeder that became a nightmare to own as it was extremely aggressive with people. Does that mean the purebred was bad? No not at all, I was at fault for not doing my homework on the breeder and proved to be a valuable lesson to me though painful financially and emotionally. I currently have 4 purebreds in my home 2 of which are rescues and 2 from breeders

Today if I wanted a mixed breed to add to my household of 4 dogs and 2 cats it would have to be an adult and I would have to be around it a bit to determine if the personality, temperament and energy would fit well with my own home, a puppy would not work because I would have no idea of how it would mature and as it matures may not fit in with my current pack I do not want to live in a home where I have to constantly keep animals seperated because they are not compatible

With purebreds I can research breeds to find a suitable match for my household, then I can start looking at breeders and look for one that is breeding to standard and does genetic testing to ensure health and temperament, then I can look into behaviour of the puppies and determine if as puppies are they going to be too boisterous for my cats and older dogs. And only then will I be assure that a puppy will work in my home or not. Which I recently did and worked out great.

Accidental mixed matings may still occur once in a while even if there were only responisible breeders as some do show more than one breed. breeders do there darndest to avoid but dogs will be dogs and males do not understand that they cannot mate only to their own breeds so if their is a female in the home they will go to extremes to get to her for example open a door for the first time or bust loose from a crate something the owner never calculated on, so their would still be the odd mutts around but far far less then the current population of dogs that get euthanized in pounds on a daily basis

OntarioGreys
November 24th, 2006, 02:11 PM
Yes there are all kinds of purebred dogs in rescue if that is what someone would like to adopt.

But not bred by responsible breeders, responsible breeders want their dogs back and often include strong penalities in their contracts to ensure the dogs come back to them and they also micrchip the dogs in their names in the event the dogs gets free from the owner, so they are contacted and can decide if the dog should go back to the owner

LM1313
November 24th, 2006, 02:14 PM
Hi Twisted Angel:

The problem people here on the forum have is not with the puppy itself the puppy is simply the victim, the problem people here have is that when you buy a puppy from an irresponsible breeder it encourages them to continue breeding.

But in this case she isn't buying the puppy. The breeder isn't getting any money. :) I don't think the bitch's owner is "breeding" purposely, it sounds more like someone who couldn't be bothered to spay his dog, so of course she ended up pregnant.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 02:18 PM
But not bred by responsible breeders, responsible breeders want their dogs back and often include strong penalities in their contracts to ensure the dogs come back to them and they also micrchip the dogs in their names in the event the dogs gets free from the owner, so they are contacted and can decide if the dog should go back to the owner

Yes those "rare" ones I have seen people post about.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 02:25 PM
prin... he he he.... look at this boy! http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7399769

lol that's funny... But I'm still on standby for now.;)

LL1, I haven't figured them all out yet, but so far heart, hips, elbows... uhh... there are more but I'm not remembering them all. Newfs are a pot-pourri of defects.:(

pitgrrl
November 24th, 2006, 02:25 PM
But in this case she isn't buying the puppy. The breeder isn't getting any money. :) I don't think the bitch's owner is "breeding" purposely, it sounds more like someone who couldn't be bothered to spay his dog, so of course she ended up pregnant.

If the person is allowing their dogs to breed though (negligence isn't an accident after all), taking a puppy, whether paying for it or not, is still enabling the person to continue.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 02:28 PM
Oh and microchipping doesn't guarantee a good breeder either. The breeder a friend of mine got her min pin from had extensive contracts, (feeding contracts, neutering, rehoming, etc) and was microchipped in the breeder's name, but in 1.5 years, the breeder has NEVER contacted her.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 02:28 PM
If the person is allowing their dogs to breed though (negligence isn't an accident after all), taking a puppy, whether paying for it or not, is still enabling the person to continue.

I agree.. While I don't want the puppies dead or anything, it does make it easier for the byber.:shrug:

meb999
November 24th, 2006, 02:30 PM
maybe you could offer a spay as an adoption fee :shrug:

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 02:53 PM
maybe you could offer a spay as an adoption fee :shrug:

That's what I suggested to the OP (great minds ;)), but she said they wouldn't be willing.:shrug:

Angies Man
November 24th, 2006, 03:02 PM
And I won't criticize you for it, even tho I don't agree.

I have a purebred, pedigreed dog. I know her parentage going back 6 generations on either side, and if I wanted to pay for the research, we could go even further (I've never heard of a Heinz 57 that could provide that.) I don't know if her breeder qualifies as a reputable one (seems to me that that is a somewhat moving target,) but she said that she had done all the prerequisite health checks & my puppy has (so far) been the healthiest dog I've owned, and gets comments from family and friends for her good behavour and calm and pleasant disposition as much for her good looks.

I have had mongrels, mutts, and champions. Some I have loved less than others--some have been dogs that worked their ways so deep into my heart that I still feel pain and longing years after they've passed on.

I love standard poodles, I do enjoy the attention my dog gets when we go out, tho that's not the reason I decided to pay a weeks wages to get her, plus about another weeks wages to the vet to get her poked and prodded, and generally started out life with me on a good footing. And then there's the cost of a very good meal in a fine restaurant every 6 to 8 weeks that goes to a groomer, who keeps her hair cut and clean, her nails clipped, her ears cleaned and healthy, and her anal glands expressed.

Over the years, I've found that I don't enjoy strong doggy smell, and shedded fur in every aspect of my environment. I like pleasant, easy to train, fun dogs. I don't need a dog to herd sheep, catch rats, protect me, or dig for truffles. I will never show my dog, haven't sent in her registration papers, and will be spaying her soon after her first heat. All I want is a nice, easy to keep clean, companion dog. Poodles are good with kids, other animals, and strangers, because they don't have a herding instinct and very little prey instinct.

My dog sleeps next to me either in my bed or in her crate next to my bed, doesn't spend inordinate time in the backyard, gets high quality food in a clean bowl, and fresh water is always available. She demands and provides affection, gets play time everyday.

While I commend people who rescue unwanted dogs, the rescue dogs I've gotten (all adults) have usually (tho not always) had emotional baggage, behavioral problems, and health issues. So I don't go looking for someone else's castoff, I don't want other people's accidents. To tell the truth, after being burned with unpleasant experiences, I finally gave up. You all can judge me as harsh, you all certainly have in the recent past.

I support my local SPCA (which is one of the local no-kill shelters)--with cash donations, food, canned evaporated or dry milk, and blankets for bedding.

As someone said, purebreds aren't necessarily better dogs, but they are much more predictable. And good breeders of pedigreed dogs are more likely to do the right things about prenatal care, postnatal care, early socialization, & keeping the pups with their mom an appropriate period, and placing their dogs in carefully selected & appropriate homes. No puppy should be separated from their mom before 10 to 12 weeks, and while probably no statistics exist, it wouldn't be too unreasonable to think that a high percentage of mixed breed puppies are "gotten rid of" well before that magic length of time.

dogcatharmony
November 24th, 2006, 03:06 PM
But not bred by responsible breeders, responsible breeders want their dogs back and often include strong penalities in their contracts to ensure the dogs come back to them and they also micrchip the dogs in their names in the event the dogs gets free from the owner, so they are contacted and can decide if the dog should go back to the owner

Is this a rule with people to go on to prove that their breeder is "responsible"? My sister did her research on a particular breed, she did her research on breeders. She found one that she was absolutely sold on. She signed all the papers, there where clauses that listed reasons the breeder could "repo" the dog, there were penalties if the dog was not neutered or properly taken care of by the vet. There was even a clause included that stated if my sister " the owner" was to pass away that the dog was to be returned to the breeder. The breeder kept in contact throughout the pregnancy, my sister went often to visit. When the pups came she went even more to watch the pups interact and finally settled on the one she wanted. Four weeks into the pup arriving at her home, the trouble started. She had endless vet appt. , the breeder started to become rude and not return phone calls. My sister's dog started having violent sezuires, she was devasted. The breeder then started telling my sister the tests that the dog should be recieving, to make a long story shorter, when the pups were still in the breeders care they drank a cleaning product out of a mop bucket, the breeder didnt think this would affect the pups any and still sold all of them. The dog died, but the legal battle still continues, and this responsible breeder is still selling pups, still has her license. Don't be too sure your "responsible breeder" is actually responsible.

Rottielover
November 24th, 2006, 03:20 PM
there is a difference being a COE breeder. One who has morals. Just goes to show you what extent of research must be done.

LavenderRott
November 24th, 2006, 03:55 PM
Is this a rule with people to go on to prove that their breeder is "responsible"? My sister did her research on a particular breed, she did her research on breeders. She found one that she was absolutely sold on. She signed all the papers, there where clauses that listed reasons the breeder could "repo" the dog, there were penalties if the dog was not neutered or properly taken care of by the vet. There was even a clause included that stated if my sister " the owner" was to pass away that the dog was to be returned to the breeder. The breeder kept in contact throughout the pregnancy, my sister went often to visit. When the pups came she went even more to watch the pups interact and finally settled on the one she wanted. Four weeks into the pup arriving at her home, the trouble started. She had endless vet appt. , the breeder started to become rude and not return phone calls. My sister's dog started having violent sezuires, she was devasted. The breeder then started telling my sister the tests that the dog should be recieving, to make a long story shorter, when the pups were still in the breeders care they drank a cleaning product out of a mop bucket, the breeder didnt think this would affect the pups any and still sold all of them. The dog died, but the legal battle still continues, and this responsible breeder is still selling pups, still has her license. Don't be too sure your "responsible breeder" is actually responsible.

I am very sorry that your sister is having so many problems with her "breeder".

My criteria for what makes an ethical breeder is pretty stringent and I am pretty serious about what I am looking for.

Breeding dogs must be at least two years old, have a championship, and have at least a couple of "legs" on an obedience title or some sort of title in a working venue.

Hips and elbows on the parents and several generations back must be certified at least Fair and I want to see copies of documentation (I WON'T take someone's word for this). I also want numbers for dogs from previous breedings of the pair that have been checked, so that I can see the results and verify.

I want to see paperwork stating that the breeding pair have had their hearts checked and cleared by a certified veterinary cardiologist.

I want references. The names and numbers of as many people who have purchased puppies from the breeder as I can get. And I am not talking about people that show and breed. I am talking about people that have purchased both show and pet quality puppies.

I want to know that if something happens, my breeder wants my dog back. I also want to know that my breeder donates time or money to the local breed rescue group.

These are just the things that come to mind right now. I already know who I want to get a rottwieler puppy from - even though I can't have one any time in the near future. I also know that getting a puppy from here will entail driving half way across the country to get it. I have talked to several people that have gotten puppies from her and have yet to hear one negative word. I also know that all of the dogs she breeds are shown to meet the standard both physically and tempermentally - through several different venues.

BTW - none of the ethical breeders that I would consider buying a puppy from would let a client pick out a puppy UNLESS it was some with vast experience with the breed. Having spent a minimum of 8 weeks with these puppies - the breeder knows more about the personality and temperment of each puppy than a client would know in the limited amount of time that they spend with the litter. An ethical breeder would gladly refund money to a client then let them take home a puppy that doesn't "fit in" with the plans and lifestyle of that client.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 04:57 PM
Oh and microchipping doesn't guarantee a good breeder either. The breeder a friend of mine got her min pin from had extensive contracts, (feeding contracts, neutering, rehoming, etc) and was microchipped in the breeder's name, but in 1.5 years, the breeder has NEVER contacted her.

Chips cost about $5 when you buy in bulk,so yes,chips and tats do not make a responsible breeder.And not neutering prior is also a sign.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 05:03 PM
And I won't criticize you for it, even tho I don't agree.

I have a purebred, pedigreed dog. I know her parentage going back 6 generations on either side, and if I wanted to pay for the research, we could go even further (

While I commend people who rescue unwanted dogs, the rescue dogs I've gotten (all adults) have usually (tho not always) had emotional baggage, behavioral problems, and health issues.

As someone said, purebreds aren't necessarily better dogs, but they are much more predictable. And good breeders of pedigreed dogs are more likely to do the right things about prenatal care, postnatal care, early socialization, & keeping the pups with their mom an appropriate period, and placing their dogs in carefully selected & appropriate homes.

You can find the same dogs in many rescues.Wonderful dogs that you can have fun tracing the history of if that is something you are interested in.I also disagree purebreds are more predicatble.

Buying a pup from a breeder is no guarantee against emotional baggage,behavioral problems and health issues.I would argue you are more likely to find that in a pup from a breeder than an adult in rescue.I wont say the same for pups,as all pups are a crapshoot,regardless of where they come from.

Prin you could do those tests on a dog in rescue if you wished.

dogcatharmony,that is not uncommon in dogs from breeders that people on the outside looking in would think are responsible

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 05:08 PM
LL1, 10-week old puppies from caring, responsible breeders do not have "emotional baggage" - however many adults in rescue have plenty. you NEVER know what these dogs lived through before you adopt them, your best bets are only guesses in the end.

Sorry that is a myth.They absolutely can have emotional baggage and be genetically unsound.Many rescues also know exactly what the dogs have been through.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 05:20 PM
ok you have your opinion, and i have mine... :rolleyes: i wholeheartedly disagree with you though. how can a rescue POSSIBLY know what a dog went through before it came to them if the dog was a stray, for example? and define the "emotional baggage" a 10-week old puppy from a good, caring breeder would have? :confused: compared to an abused stray dog? :confused:

We can disagree.Many dogs in rescue come in with histories and papers,or we know the breeders and the set up and how they live.Yes some are strays and we do not know,many are chipped or have tats and we can easily track them.I think the issue is more about whether people think "good, caring breeders" exist.A good idea is to ask purebred rescue about breeders as part of your screening if for some reason you want to go to a breeder rather than a rescue.Some pups are messed up due to genetics,matters not how they are raised.And some are raised in horrible ways.You cant know that from looking at a website,and a clause saying they will take dogs back,does not mean they will.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 05:33 PM
Can you say who this super breeder is?I think it would be good for people to know what a good breeder actually is when they decide to do research,as they are as rare as hens teeth.Are you in Akita rescue?

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 06:12 PM
Thank you,I will check them out,are they involved in rescue and do they alter pets before adoption?I know the lady who runs the Ontario rescue works very hard.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 06:31 PM
Of course people can lie and sneak around.I have taken in adult dogs from "responsible" breeders on "very strict" spay and neuter contracts that were intact,they are not worth the paper they are written on,and have taken in many that had a "strict" return clause.That was part of my point on how people think breeders are responsible and in fact are not.You really can't know unless you are a rescue or have tried to return a dog to them.If you are a purebred fan,getting involved in rescue is a real eye opener on breeders,I suggest everyone who loves their breed get involved.It is sad,but you will get a great education imo

~michelle~
November 24th, 2006, 06:42 PM
ok so i have learned alot from this forum...... I used to think that labradoodles were ok, they were cute, each (well bred) form of the breed has great qualities, and i thought it'd be ok, unfortunately thats how most people think, they dont know.... now i know better. there were breeders around the london area that bred lab-poodle crosses and i thought they were good, they had a bunch of info etc etc etc. yes all pure breds were mutts at some point in time and im sure there are people out there who mix breed and try to come out with a quality new breed, but they dont gve the cutesy names, and they do genetic test and are breeding for a purpose. as far as the comments that people get dogs for the looks, its true of all dog owners.... i picked my dogs (all shelter dogs) partially based on looks. its like all relationships, there is an attraction factor and alot of the times looks play in to it not everyone goes fo an "ugly" dog although sometimes there is a spark and sometimes the "ugly' dog and the person click (i dont like describing anything as ugly esp pups!) . i also chose them because they all seemed to have great personalities as well. mutts can be great, poorly bred pure breds can suck as far as temperment and health goes, but a well bred pure bred is more likely to have fewer problems and you will have more of idea as to what you are getting in to (mutations can happen, but there will be less hereditary probs)

mafiaprincess
November 24th, 2006, 06:53 PM
I'm looking for a breeder. It's hard to find one you like with all the right criteria, but it isn't impossible. Lot of the people pushing rescue seem to be describing what anyone who knows what a true great breeder is, would deem a byb.

Therefore making the main arguments not worth much..

I have a rescued dog, with a screwed up temperament that I had to work hard on for a year and a half to get near normalcy. I'm not willing to do it again. I want to know 40 years of my dog's history, 7 generations of their temperament or more, and how their hereditary health is. It not the gamble the pro rescue folks are making it out to be.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 07:01 PM
I'm looking for a breeder. It's hard to find one you like with all the right criteria, but it isn't impossible. Lot of the people pushing rescue seem to be describing what anyone who knows what a true great breeder is, would deem a byb.

Therefore making the main arguments not worth much..

I have a rescued dog, with a screwed up temperament that I had to work hard on for a year and a half to get near normalcy. I'm not willing to do it again. I want to know 40 years of my dog's history, 7 generations of their temperament or more, and how their hereditary health is. It not the gamble the pro rescue folks are making it out to be.


You can get that in rescue if you are patient.I am in rescue,but do not push it,many homes are not suitable.It is a gamble with pups,no matter if you are in rescue or not,all pups are.I cant tell you how many people ask rescues to take their pups with papers and awesome lines that are having issues,some rescues do,and some wait and intake them from shelters.

What do you feel is a great breeder?The criteria that is often outlined as the basics of being responsible are not met,its not rocket science.Rare is being rather broad ime.It is unfortunate you got a dog that is screwed up from a rescue,not all rescues are good either.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 07:05 PM
LL1, i am curious... do you know any breeders who spay/neuter 8 or 10-week old puppies before they hand them over to their new owners?... i've asked around and not even the top breeders do this, for a variety of reasons... so i ask, what is the solution? it appears (but i could be wrong, i often am LOL) that you don't believe any breeder is good enough, can get everything right... what am i missing :o


Apparently several in the US do,not here though sadly.I also do not think rescues that do not do that are responsible,I am not picking on breeders.They can choose to be responsible,and dont.That goes hand in hand with the "rare" comment on being responsible.Most are not,maybe 99.9% I dont know what you mean by "top" breeders?

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 07:15 PM
Top rate show and working lines do not equate with responsible ime,I have taken in their dogs too and most rescues I know of have as well.Involved in rescue?That would be a shorter list.

LavenderRott
November 24th, 2006, 07:24 PM
So, LL1 - what is your definition of an ethical breeder? Because Techno is right - it doesn't sound like anyone would be good enough for you.

As for your having dogs with papers in your rescue - registration papers are barely worth the paper that they are printed on. Anyone with a pair of purebred dogs can have a litter of puppies, make up a kennel name and get papers. But that isn't really what an ethical breeder is all about.

Until you find a way to get rid of backyard breeders and commercial breeders, then unless you do your homework very thoroughly you are going to have a harder time finding an ethical breeder. That certainly doesn't mean that they aren't out there.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 07:27 PM
Cyber kitten posted a good list.and being involved in rescue would be one thing I would add.I will have to look again.It IS possible.Not hard AT ALL.If someone wants to be responsible.Most do not ime.

I am aware of what papers mean,and do not mean.And I have had and many rescues I know have had dogs from very respected kennels in their rescues.Hence my posts on that.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 07:46 PM
All said they had no room and would not help,or they could not place adult dogs,you name it,they said it..So rescues took them.None followed up to ask how their dog was doing,and none donated any cookies or toys or food for their dog,never mind help with vet care.

LavenderRott
November 24th, 2006, 07:52 PM
There is considerably more to being an ethical breeder then just the bloodlines of the dogs.

I can think of 3 rottweiler breeders that I know that have recently (in the last year or so) taken back older dogs from families that had issues come up in the family making it very difficult or impossible to care for their family dog. These dogs have either been rehomed or will remain with the breeder until the right home comes along.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 07:53 PM
Techo,most do not ime,possibly all imo,and many of these are breeders of champions etc and well regarded

This is why I say you will learn alot if you get involved in rescue,especially purebred rescue.Several well known and very respected breeders will also say rescue is the best place for them and will find the best homes,while that may be true,they do not follow up or want to help in any way.Or care.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 07:55 PM
There is considerably more to being an ethical breeder then just the bloodlines of the dogs.



Yes I know that.I am not seeing any evidence of any who measure up.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 08:03 PM
I am glad you feel that way.But ime unless you are in rescue or try and return a dog to the breeder,you really have no idea if they are responsible or not.I admit I was shocked too.I had no idea that the breeders I respected and thought were wonderful and wanted to get a dog from,were not.And cyber kitten is not a breeder,and I do not think she is a rescuer,and yet I have not seen people show any breeders that match her criteria.

happycats
November 24th, 2006, 08:20 PM
Okay so lets say your the most wonderful breeder on the face of the earth.
You have only 2 bitches at any given time, who you breed every other year at approx 6 pups per litter. If your in the business for 20 years that's 120 dogs you have created, so I don't think any breeder could possibly care fo or take back up to at least 120 dogs if it doesn't work out!!

I think LL1 is accurate when she says that breeders who take their dogs back are very few and far between. I have never heard of one and I have actually told people who have purchased their dogs from so called reputable breeder, to call the breeder, and in ALL cases the breeder wanted nothing to do with the dog. They did suggest to bring the dog to a rescue and did recommend a few. In many cases the breeder was no longer in business.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 08:26 PM
Thanks happycat.But responsible rescues do it.I am always surprised and saddened at how many people feel free to bash rescues,and hold them to a much higher standard than they hold breeders.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 08:27 PM
Yeah, but how long do your dogs live? And if you're a good breeder, and you're selective, you won't get a lot of returns.;)

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 08:29 PM
Thanks happycat.But responsible rescues do it.I am always surprised and saddened at how many people feel free to bash rescues,and hold them to a much higher standard than they hold breeders.

Ohh not me. Breeders have so much to live up to in my eyes. Rescues are dealing with so much all the time, so many dumped dogs, so much burnout, that they deserve a break, IMO...

happycats
November 24th, 2006, 08:34 PM
Thanks happycat.But responsible rescues do it.I am always surprised and saddened at how many people feel free to bash rescues,and hold them to a much higher standard than they hold breeders.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for rescues! They pick up where basically "everyone" (people, breeders, pounds) else has left off.

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 08:37 PM
I didnt mean you happy and prin,but in general people should think about what they feel is a responsible rescue.And then reconsider their views on responsible breeders imo

Completely disagree techo.

CyberKitten
November 24th, 2006, 08:50 PM
I think I noted that I left out alot, I just was thinking of a few. I guess my main pt is I know no reputable breeder who makes money - they all need to spend a small fortune of their own - and have to be supremely ethical.

I won't debate this - I know we all think much in the same way. I guess I just wanted to say there are some good breeders out there - hard to find but they exist.

I expect a good breeder to have her pets in their home. I did not go i nto detail bec I thought ppl would get what I meant about having some area for their animals. Byb's have their pets outside, dirty porches (even registered ones!!). horrible places - that was my point there.


I left out so much - my point was merely to show some of the differences not to be a definitive resource, Sheesh!!

Pike
November 24th, 2006, 10:07 PM
This thread has run it's course. Please do not reopen in a new thread.