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Lyme Qs

mafiaprincess
November 23rd, 2006, 10:06 PM
So Ash pulled a deer tick off Cider in NY a week and a half ago hours after we would have come in contact with it. (In the woods none at Ash's home). I took a fairly engorged one off Cider 2-3 days ago. There was this raisiny like thing in my car that too much looked like a dead tick I found today :yuck:

I have been told by a few people that the ticks that carry the bacteria for Lyme are actually tiny little things you rarely see.. hence many people not knowing until hardcore Lyme signs occur.. not deer ticks. But I've read deer ticks can carry it too.. Positive side from research I've read only 1 percent of the 'correct ticks' carry it..

So... I'm vet shopping, we'll be going in the next week Cider needs DHPP :frustrated: hopefully the three year.. and I'll ask 500 Qs and for once make this visit count.

She's been depressed since we left her friends in NY.. She sleeps a lot. My mother would like to tell me she's maturing. She didn't become mature in 2 weeks I don't think. Think it's possible she's tired from non stop play and 2 long drives? We've only been home a week.. I didn't think Lyme signs could be so fast if it is that..

She's raring to go if there's something to do.. Is a rocket at agility.. but she'd always come home and be restless.. she's snoring on my floor after class tonight..

She was sneezing this morning, but I think it was my mother's perfume..

I'm a little concerned..

Prin
November 23rd, 2006, 10:22 PM
Another tick? Maybe you should do a full skin scan on her...:o

Frenchy
November 23rd, 2006, 10:23 PM
I'm a little concerned..

Same here after the last one I pull out of Bailey. But my vet said symptoms takes longer to show. Bailey felt better after a couple of days.It was just before Daisy past away so I guess he knew and felt sad ? :shrug: Maybe Cider miss her friends , if so,it will get better !

mafiaprincess
November 23rd, 2006, 10:27 PM
I can't prove the raisny thing was one.. The main tick is the one I asked your help on.. and the first tick was pulled really fast..

I hope it's depression, it's way too early for signs of Lymes I think.. But she's so sleepy and passive about life lately. We are going to the vet so I'll totally ask, just I need to call a few and decide if I pick a new one or go to the current even though the prices seem darn high.

Frenchy
November 23rd, 2006, 10:31 PM
it's way too early for signs of Lymes I think..

Yes it is, and she would loose appetite.....so stop worrying. :shrug: You are seing your vet soon so you can tell him your worries.

rainbow
November 23rd, 2006, 10:35 PM
I've always been told that if you find a tick on your pet that you should save it and take it to the vet. :shrug:

jiorji
November 23rd, 2006, 10:39 PM
I've always been told that if you find a tick on your pet that you should save it and take it to the vet. :shrug:

??? how big are those things?!?!

maybe it;s weather change that's affecting Cider:fingerscr

mafiaprincess
November 23rd, 2006, 11:07 PM
The first one caught early was tiny. I found it petting her head cause she had a small bump.. tiny tiny rice grain.. The somewhat engorged one was well not full.. size of the tip of my pinky finger, or getting there was getting roundish..

Yeah I was told to keep it hours after I flushed it. Was warned handling it could effect me, and to dispose of it well.. oops.

Hope it's weather, depression over lacking siblings now... If we're lucky maybe spring or summer that might change, but I need her back together for now.

hazelrunpack
November 23rd, 2006, 11:53 PM
The ticks start out quite small (sesame seed size or smaller, depending upon life stage of the tick) but after 5 - 7 days of gorging they swell to the size of small raisins (they look smooth but if you look closely, you'll see the legs up by the head).

Symptoms of Lyme's can appear within days. We had a labrador who would start limping and become lethargic within 48 hours of being infected. Some dogs just seem to be more susceptible.

In our area, it is the deer tick that is the primary carrier of Lyme's disease. I've seen studies that indicate anywhere from 40% - 80% of the ticks in NW Wisconsin are infected with the Lyme's organism. There are two major epicenters of Lyme's in the US--one is here the other is on the east coast (including NY).

Lyme's is so prevalent here that if you find an engorged tick on your dog and the dog shows any symptoms at all, the local vets will begin treatment for Lyme's even before the tests can be done to confirm infection. We currently have a dog whose first owner either ignored or misinterpreted her symptoms, and as a result, she has a chronic case of Lyme's. She's gone through two 6-wk courses of antibiotic and the Lyme's is once again in check, but will likely flare up again in the future. She has a progressive fusing of the spine and is suffering from auto-immune thyroid disease, both of which may be caused by her infection. We worry that she'll eventually experience a cascade of auto-immune responses spurred by the Lyme's organism.

Early treatment is a must, in our opinions--symptoms come and go and if they subside, it doesn't mean the dog (or person) has overcome the disease. If you wait until long-term symptoms appear, you're going to have to deal with a chronic case at that point...

The treatment is an antibiotic like doxycycline and is usually given for 3 weeks for a non-chronic case.

I hope this is helpful, MP!...give Cider an extra hug for me.

springermom0406
November 23rd, 2006, 11:58 PM
Hazel ~ question... I had my girl Jazzy tested in August she came up negative. Sometimes I wonder if she has it although its hard to tell. Shes not very active (but shes always been laid back) and she doesnt really like to eat much... but with her its hard to tell shes sick. Wondering if I should test again or..?

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2006, 12:03 AM
Hazel ~ question... I had my girl Jazzy tested in August she came up negative. Sometimes I wonder if she has it although its hard to tell. Shes not very active (but shes always been laid back) and she doesnt really like to eat much... but with her its hard to tell shes sick. Wondering if I should test again or..?

Probably wouldn't hurt. Our vets recently switched to a snap test (includes heartworm, Lyme's and something else that slips my memory just now) that seems to be more accurate than the old titers were. The most consistent symptoms we've seen in all the dogs who have come down with it is lameness that travels from paw to paw--one day it'll be the right front, two days later it's suddenly the left front, a week after that one of the rear legs will go lame--and an on-again/off-again lethargy--fine one day and raring to go, lethargic and disinterested on days when they're aching. Is that the sort of thing that Jazzy is showing?

springermom0406
November 24th, 2006, 12:10 AM
I'm not really sure...she seems to walk fine. She's not the type of dog to let me know something is wrong. Where as if somethings wrong with Riley the world knows. She had her lyme vaccine but like the vet said it isnt 100%. Either that or shes just a lazy picky brat lol. Any other symptoms I should look for?

~~~~

Cider sounds like Riley did when he had it. Riley was that way for a month or two before the vet finally tested him. And I knew it all along.... when you do go to the vet I'd have her tested anyway.

mafiaprincess
November 24th, 2006, 12:23 AM
Hazel.. will most vets have the snap test? Cause heck Cider was due for HW testing in April anyhow, would rather know all is well now...

And, will it show the correct pos/neg now if it's only been 5days -just under 2 weeks.. Or every few months you need to recheck for a while or.. I don't really know how this works..

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2006, 12:24 AM
I'm not really sure...she seems to walk fine. She's not the type of dog to let me know something is wrong. Where as if somethings wrong with Riley the world knows. She had her lyme vaccine but like the vet said it isnt 100%. Either that or shes just a lazy picky brat lol. Any other symptoms I should look for?

I'm trying to think of other specific symptoms that we've seen... Low grade fever sometimes. Once we had a dog that seemed a little peaky and a blood panel showed an elevated white blood cell count--he was treated as if he had Lyme's even though the titer was negative at the time. The antibiotic did the trick, but we were never 100% certain that he had had Lyme's--we are 100% certain that he'd had some ticks, however.

The vaccine is definitely not 100%--I've seen estimates as low as 80% effective. We've had dogs get Lyme's even though they were vaccinated.

We use Frontline Plus on the dogs every month unless there is more than a couple of inches of snow on the ground. That helps a lot, but this fall we still found 3 bloated ticks. So far no one is showing symptoms, but we plan to get the snap tests done early next year just to be certain.

How old is Jazzy (I remember seeing the pictures and I'm thinking about 2?). Our setters all go into their adult couch potato phase between the ages of 3 and 5. I can't tell you how many dogs we've had into the vet thinking they were sick, only to find out they'd just gone into couch potato mode...:o Kind of embarrassing, but maybe that's what's happening with Jazzy? Still--it always pays to take them in when they change behavior, IMO...sometimes it isn't just the onset of maturity.

mafiaprincess
November 24th, 2006, 12:29 AM
I'm trying to think of other specific symptoms that we've seen... Low grade fever sometimes.

Dammit, Cider's seemed warm for a few days..... Is lethargic, but when you are doing something is up to go, was a star at agility, is dead to the world now. Has been near no trouble since NY, which isn't her. Would rather chill than snoop...

And I appreciate the vet pushing revolution for flea tick hw in one.. cause it doesn't do deer ticks.. told me it was the same as frontline plus and a hw med together and it's not..

Jazzy's only 10 months.

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2006, 12:31 AM
Hazel.. will most vets have the snap test? Cause heck Cider was due for HW testing in April anyhow, would rather know all is well now...

And, will it show the correct pos/neg now if it's only been 5days -just under 2 weeks.. Or every few months you need to recheck for a while or.. I don't really know how this works..

Our vet says 4 - 6 weeks before trying the snap test--but if the symptoms are marked, the vet will treat before the test can be done. There is another test they do on our chronic case--called the C6 test...not sure what it looks for but it's a blood test that gets sent out to a special lab (so it's pricey) but it comes back with a very precise measure of exposure. We do it for Lil Belle 6 months after she's been treated for a flare-up to make sure that the antibiotics have it in check again. I'm not sure how long you'd have to wait for a C6 test...might show results right away...

I think the snap test is pretty widely available. I can contact our vet here and get specifics if your vet doesn't use it?

springermom0406
November 24th, 2006, 12:31 AM
Jazzy is 10 months old. She's always been a laid back puppy, but its only been the last couple months she's totally refused agility and doesn't want to play... I use Advantix but still find ticks on them both. She had quite a few over the last few months. Guess I should just get her tested again, for at least my own ease.

mafiaprincess
November 24th, 2006, 12:34 AM
I'm going to start vet shopping tomorrow, I'm unhappy with my current, more I talk to people more I seem to be being gouged and for meh service..

I feel like an idiot though.. 'hi I was wondering what a normal visit with DHPP costs. K, is that 1 year or three year protocols that you are on, k do you do the hw/lyme snap test?'

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2006, 12:38 AM
Dammit, Cider's seemed warm for a few days..... Is lethargic, but when you are doing something is up to go, was a star at agility, is dead to the world now. Has been near no trouble since NY, which isn't her. Would rather chill than snoop...

And I appreciate the vet pushing revolution for flea tick hw in one.. cause it doesn't do deer ticks.. told me it was the same as frontline plus and a hw med together and it's not..

Jazzy's only 10 months.

If you don't have many deer ticks in your area, revolution probably is fine for home. Frontline is pretty nasty-smelling but it's well-worth it for the protection it gives the dogs.

Jazzy's probably too young to be in her "maturing" slow down yet; although I've know springers who have mellowed early, it's not typical. Sounds like Cider isn't quite her normal self, either.

You might also want to ask your vet about erlichiosis--spelling might be wrong--it's another tick-borne disease that is becoming more common in WI (not sure about out east) and can cause similar symptoms. I believe that's the third thing that the snap test checks for...(but it's late and my memory often fails me :o ). Erlichiosis is also treated by antibiotics. I'm not sure what long-term effects there might be. We have, so far, been lucky and not had a problem with it, but a friend's dog was diagnosed with it last week--he hunts close to where we live and got into a lot of ticks this year.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 12:39 AM
Do it! They're so used to those questions. Whatever's best for your puppy.:)

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2006, 12:42 AM
I'm going to start vet shopping tomorrow, I'm unhappy with my current, more I talk to people more I seem to be being gouged and for meh service..

I feel like an idiot though.. 'hi I was wondering what a normal visit with DHPP costs. K, is that 1 year or three year protocols that you are on, k do you do the hw/lyme snap test?'

Nope--those are exactly the kinds of questions that a vet should expect. You want to find one that either practices your preferred protocols or is willing to conform to your preference (as long as it's a reasonable protocol that keeps your animal protected)--and prices are always a good thing to know! If a vet won't publicize his fees or won't work with you, I'd find a new vet.

mafiaprincess
November 24th, 2006, 12:50 AM
Do it! They're so used to those questions. Whatever's best for your puppy.:)

I get my motivation at crappy times though, I want answers now, lol.

Thank you Hazel. Of everything I freaking read online most stuff blew off the likelihood as little, and that symptoms don't show for a long time.. But Ciders been funky like a week.. I was concerned, but now I'm a little freaked out.

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2006, 12:55 AM
I get my motivation at crappy times though, I want answers now, lol.

Thank you Hazel. Of everything I freaking read online most stuff blew off the likelihood as little, and that symptoms don't show for a long time.. But Ciders been funky like a week.. I was concerned, but now I'm a little freaked out.

Good luck with finding a really good vet. :fingerscr I hope Cider is back on her feet soon--Jazzy, too. Even if they come back negative with the first test, insist on a test again in a month or two, just to make sure. If they do have it, you don't want to miss it. It's a real pain to get rid of once it's chronic--much better to hit it hard right from the start. But our dogs have all responded well to the antibiotics and, except for Lil Belle (the chronic case), they've had no relapses. :thumbs up

OntarioGreys
November 24th, 2006, 07:38 AM
If you removed the ticks within 3 days of exposure generally they will be safe from tick disease, and pull them out by the head and not squeezing the body at all.

THe removed tick should be saved in a jar of alcohol inorder to be identified, a dear tick normally only carries lyme but a dog tick can carry many strains of tick disease like babesia and erlichia which is also common in the northeast US, which can hitch hike on different species of animals and on birds. At Long Point bird observatory in Ontario they had removed ticks from as far away as Argentina so they would be able to bring disease for the and infect wildlife here or whereever the bird travels, which increases the number of varitey of tick disease possible, which ius why saving the tick is important as it helps in knowing what disease to test for.

First stage of tiick disease will be what's called tick fever where the dog may have a fever and feel under the weather, some dogs it is barely noticable other will be very sick , early on there are not enough organisms to show up in a blood test, so pointless to do right away, you typically would have to wait 6 months to a year to get reliable test results after the tick fever the dog will appear normal. later on months or years later limping is often the first sign.

Since you suspect tick fever, it won't hurt for the vet to prescibe tetracycline or doxycycline(these are well tolerated by dogs and won't hurt the dog if it does not have) for 2 weeks and kill any possible organisms now rather the wait months to do a test, when the organisms have multiplied in the bloodstream and may be more diffiucult to clear.
With Sunny with his enlarged spleen there was some concern that he may have a tick disease despite have had a tick panel done a couple years earlier) as there are many different strains of erlichia that are not tested for in a regular tick panel (lyme, babesia, erlichia canis and another form of erlichia) since an enlarged spleen is a sign of possible very advanced tick disease he was treated for 6 weeks at a high dosage of tetracycline just to be on the safe side, the other alternative was to spend hundreds of dollars in bloodtest and sending all the bloodwork to the US to be analysized for all the uncommon strains which in the end other than babesia which is also the most difficult to treat and was already ruled out would require the tetrcycline or doxy as treatment anyway if he had.

With tick titer testing it only can tell you if the dog has exposure to the disease but does not tell if the dog is infected. Maya testing showed she was positive for babesia and treatment for babesia can be dangerous, so I went a step further and had another blood sample sent to the University of NC for babesia DNA testing which would then tell me/the vet if the she has a babesia infection or exposure(her mom may have had an infection but she doesn't or the first test picked up a dead organism that did not survive). DNA testing is the ultimate test but expensive and you can only test one strain at a time, it is often used with dogs that have had treatment of the more difficult tick diseases to treat to see if they cleared the infection or not.

mafiaprincess
November 24th, 2006, 12:35 PM
The veterinary book I looked at says 5-20 hours and your dog can be infected. Tick 2 was there 5 days....

Well this is why I didn't want to vet shop..
I called 6 of the vet clinics I know of from the phone book.. Not the ones I've never heard of and make me sketch. I got some hostility and few answers I liked.. No one has the snap test.. Most didn't want to answer my Qs.

Since their customer service bit large, we're going to our regular vet to be over charged, but I'm not sure what else to do.. Their DHPP protocol is queer. !-3 years depending upon your likelihood of exposure. I see. Guess I'll be reading that vacc protocol cover to cover before Wed.. And they don't do the snap test either, has to be sent out..

So OG.. you suggest since it's unlikely for anything to appear so early, I tell them I feel it's pointless to test for it yet? And do HW/ Lyme/ etc in april or so for a better result?

God I'm freaking out.. doesn't want to get up to pee, if I switch from being upstairs to downstairs, it's a good 5 minutes before she comes.. Usually she's the first out the door.. Has refused cookies unless I almost put them in her mouth.. AHHHHHHH :sad:

coppperbelle
November 24th, 2006, 06:51 PM
This is the third or fourth case I have heard about this week. On Monday I was petting Chloe and found a tick on her neck. I removed it immediately but don't know for sure if I got it all. On Wednesday I found that the area was still swollen so I brought her to the vet. He suggested giving her a preventative tick medication for the next month and then again next summer. Symptoms of Lyme disease are rash and weakness int he limbs. I forgot to ask how long it would take for the symptoms to appear if she was infected. I too was totally freaked out.

LavenderRott
November 24th, 2006, 07:13 PM
Please be aware that if you have had your dog vaccinated against Lyme's, the diagnostic tests can come back showing a false negative. For this reason, I do not get my dogs vaccinated for Lyme's.

mafiaprincess
November 24th, 2006, 08:30 PM
No lyme vaccs here ever.. I had heard that too. Someone suggested I vaccinate after the fact.... I was like so when I do get blood tests it shows positive..

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2006, 09:19 PM
I think this is why the snap test was developed. With the titers, if your dog is vaccinated, the titer comes back positive. It's been a while since we've had titers done but I believe depending on what the readings are, the vet can sometimes tell if the vaccine has failed and the dog is infected. The snap test must test differently--our dogs have all been vaccinated and none of them test positive except for Lil Belle, who has the chronic Lyme's, confirmed by the C6 test.

I suspect that the snap test isn't used there because you don't have much of a problem with Lyme's disease in your area. Still, that makes it tough for dogs who get exposed to it elsewhere...

Mafia, Cider sounds like there is something wrong, be it Lyme's, Erlichiosis, or something else. If her WBC are up (sign of infection), they might well decide to treat her for Lyme's disease or Erlichiosis right away, anyway.

LavendarRott, in an area with few, if any, deer ticks, we wouldn't vaccinate, either. There are complications possible with the vaccine, though we haven't had any. However, if you go out in the woods here (we live in the middle of the Clark County Forest) in the fall, you can easily find 10, 50, even (on really icky days) 100 deer ticks crawling on a dog by the time you get back. :yuck: So in our case, the vaccination is a common-sense preventive measure, as is the Frontline Plus. And with the snap test, the vaccination no longer seems to throw false positives when you're checking for infection.

As for how long it takes for infection, the standard line we get is if you've removed the tick before 24 hours are past, it hasn't had a chance to regurgitate any organisms into the bloodstream. However, around here, if you've taken one off, you gotta wonder how many others you've missed! And when you find gorged ticks, either on a dog or the floor, it doesn't really matter if the 24-hour limit is valid, or not...

I sure hope Cider is feeling better soon, MP! That really bites that the vet clinics aren't willing to answer questions. Evidently they don't feel they need new customers :frustrated:

mafiaprincess
November 24th, 2006, 09:58 PM
I agree something is most definitely wrong.. An Wednesday can't get here fast enough..

longer this lasts the more signs of god knows what pop up.. shes got a slightly leaky nose, clear fluid only now.. only happened tonight.

I agree that the snap test is uncommon because we lack Lyme pretty much.. But I cannot be the only person who left the province.. Makes me a little paro that they'll be less willing to do something about it if they don't see Lyme cases much, you know?

Hell.. I now wonder what blood work they can even do in house.. They told me they'd have to choose what to test for and send it out.. But there's no point testing for the Lyme bacteria anytime soon..

Shopping for a vet sucked bananas.. Least my own clinic's receptionist put me on hold 3 times to give me answers.. Not that I like all of them much, like the random vacc protocol. Either my dog has the antibodies or not to last the period of time.. 1,2,3 year based on the likelihood of infected areas bothers me..

coppperbelle
November 25th, 2006, 07:15 AM
I am not educated at all on this subject and have been reading this with great interest especially since Chloe had one this week.

If you give your dog something like Frontline or Advantix are the ticks not suppose to die once they plant themselves in the dogs body?
If they do and I would assume they die quite quickly why would they need the vaccine for Lyme? Someone mentioned days before the actual Lyme is transmitted. Does it take the ticks days to die?
I have always thought these little critters were larger than a grain of rice so I am really freaked out to find out they are that small when not engorged.
What is the best way to check a dog for these critters? I have always done a body check especially in areas like under the legs etc... but I was looking for something much larger. I own golden retrievers and there is a lot of fur. Would a good brushing be enough?

Frenchy
November 25th, 2006, 07:33 AM
I own golden retrievers and there is a lot of fur. Would a good brushing be enough?

The other day I found one on Sam (on his fur,it didn't had time to get to the good stuff) and it was about 8h00 pm. We went for our walks earlier that day around 4h00 pm. So my guess is if you brush the dogs right after their walks,you would get rid of them easely because the ticks would be on the fur and not in the skin? My guess.

mafiaprincess
November 25th, 2006, 10:27 AM
Cider's pretty furry too. Both the ticks were on her head. I ran my hands over her and found the small first one. She has floppy ears and I didn't find the second one buried in the under the flap fur till it did get mighty big..

OntarioGreys
November 25th, 2006, 02:53 PM
THe area where ticks are most commonly found on dogs is between the toes armpits and ears.

THere are several tests that can be done


IFA (indirect fluorescence assay) titers are the most reliable type of titer test to run for tick-borne diseases. IFA tests analyze for the presence of antibodies. Results are reported as a ratio, indicating how far the sample could be diluted and still have a positive reading for the presence of antibodies. The higher the ratio, the greater the abundance of antibody in the dog's blood. Tests are specific for the exact species. IFA tests are available for almost all species of tick-borne organisms that infect dogs, and are available from a great many commercial laboratories. As with all testing, it is important to use a reputable laboratory that uses careful lab procedures and quality control.

Snap tests are not the most accurate, they are simply easier to do inhouse rather than sending the blood away , The SNAP 3Dx test can not distinguish between Borrelia antibodies caused by natural infection versus those produced by the Lyme Disease vaccine. For that determination a Western Blot test must be run. Many vets will recommend running a Western Blot test to confirm a diagnosis of Lyme Disease detected on the in-house SNAP 3Dx test

Another method is called ELISA
Veterinarians now have available to them a simple in-house test kit that tests for Borrelia burgdorferi (Lyme Disease), Ehrlichia canis, and canine heartworm, all in the same test kit. These test use the ELISA antibody testing method. They are fast and inexpensive, but not 100% reliable for Borrelia and Ehrlichia. (the heartworm part of the test appears to be reliable) The test is called the SNAP 3Dx. A positive reading on the SNAP test for Lyme Disease or E. canis should be considered accurate. A negative reading does not necessarily mean the dog is free of those infections. E. canis is the only Ehrlichia species tested for on this test, and dogs can be infected by many other Ehrlichia species.

Direct testing
Direct Testing Methods

Blood smear slides can be examined by microscope to look for visible evidence of tick-borne organisms. Ehrlichia and Babesia can sometimes be detected in this manner. The problem is even at the height of active infection, the actual numbers of organisms in the infected animal are low. Sometimes several slides need to be examined in order to find just one organism. The absence of organisms on a blood smear is not proof for lack of infection. Visual blood smear inspections should be done by a technician with experience in detection of these intracellular parasites.

Blood smear slides should be made from blood transferred directly from the patient to the slide via a clean syringe, and NOT exposed to any anti-coagulants or other chemicals sometimes added to preserve whole blood samples.



I prefer using IFA(indirect fluorescent antibody ) titer testing as it is considered the most accurate, which only done at a few labs in North America, The PCR DNA test is only useful when you know what strain the dog has, and is most often used a few months after treatment to see if the drugs have killed off the organisms in the blood.
my dogs bloodwork was sent to Texas one of the areas in the US that has the highest incidence of tick disease, also Arizona called protatek has an excellent testing facility, there is also a lab in BC that can do the Vector-borne Diseases Laboratory, British Columbia Centre for Disease Control, Vancouver


The problem here in Ontario is that not a lot of vets have experience with tick diseases, upto a few years ago most thought the dog had to be in Florida to get tick disease especially Babesia and erlichia and some still think this way.
You were in an area of the US where Lyme, Babesia and Erlichia exist and all can be transmitted thru deer ticks, so it is not only lyme you have to worry about, unless Cider become really ill during the possible first stage, I would not test yet and wait the 6 months and then run a test a Tick panel done then, the panel should be for all 3 Lyme, babesia and erlichia

, the problem if you test too early is that the disease may not show up in the testing or be so low as to return a low negative in the testing, and then you would think she was okay but a few years later the chronic symptoms may show up and it may be too late for treatment then.


There are a couple of vets that do ticktesting on greyhounds that are brought up from the US for an adoption group here.
Royal Ford Veterinary Clinic of Oakville and Wellington Veterinary Clinic of Markham they are familiar with the various strains and with how to treat, if you can't find them in your phone book look online the one in Markham has his own website, and if you want the testing done they would know how to go about and where to send.

hazelrunpack
November 25th, 2006, 09:33 PM
If you give your dog something like Frontline or Advantix are the ticks not suppose to die once they plant themselves in the dogs body? If they do and I would assume they die quite quickly why would they need the vaccine for Lyme? Someone mentioned days before the actual Lyme is transmitted. Does it take the ticks days to die?
I have always thought these little critters were larger than a grain of rice so I am really freaked out to find out they are that small when not engorged.
What is the best way to check a dog for these critters? I have always done a body check especially in areas like under the legs etc... but I was looking for something much larger. I own golden retrievers and there is a lot of fur. Would a good brushing be enough?

Frontline kills most of the ticks within a day--in fact, once exposed, many of the ticks abandon the dog. We'll find them crawling off the dog. This means if the dog sleeps with you, you'll find ticks in your bed :yuck: . The good news is that if the ticks are affected enough to be abandoning the dog, they are no longer willing/able to attach themselves to anything else and usually die in a matter of hours.

Some ticks are able to attach to the dog and then die right away. We usually find them later by touch--they dessicate quickly and are usually just dried little husks by then.

That said, some ticks either end up where little of the chemical has suffused, or are just resistent to it. All of our dogs are treated with Frontline Plus monthly during the tick season (around here, that means from the time the snow begins to melt and the temps hit 35 F and above until there is a solid snow cover and the temps are again below 35 F...or 32 F if there is no snow on the ground). Despite the monthly treatments, we've found three fully engorged ticks so far this year. That's why we vaccinate. It's just another precautionary step to take in "Tick Central" where we live. In an area where there were fewer ticks, we might feel comfortable relying on the Frontline only, but there are just too many ticks here...

There are different species of ticks, some are larger than others. The deer ticks are the ones that cause the most trouble here and they are quite small. The wood ticks are bigger and are widely thought not to carry Lyme's, though it's beginning to sound like some vets are rethinking that opinion. There may be other types of ticks here in WI but the deer and wood tick are the two main players here. In other parts of the country and in Canada, the tick populations will differ. So ticks in your area could very well be bigger than ticks here.

We actually use a very fine-toothed comb, like a flea comb, to go over the dogs after they've been in the woods. This does get some of the ticks out--but ticks are natural clingers and if you don't hit them just right, they won't be caught by the comb. As closely as we examine the dogs after an outing, and no matter how many dozens of ticks we find and remove, we are almost assured of seeing at least a few more later on as they abandon the dog due to the effects of the Frontline Plus. And, occasionally, we find an engorged tick--usually because we put hands on our dogs every day and feel the 'bump'. Unfortunately, usually by the time they've swelled enough to be felt this way, the dog has already been exposed to whatever the tick might be carrying. In general, if you brush the dog, then use a flea comb you can get most of the ticks. But we also pay very close attention for the next week as we pet the dogs--and that's when we usually find the engorged ones. It can take several days for the tick to become totally bloated--it seems like we start finding the really big ones all of a sudden about a week after the outing.

It sounds like the test our vet uses is the one OG found called the SNAP 3Dx, but I'm surprised that the info quoted states that it can't distinguish between an infection and a vaccination (although it goes on to say that a positive SNAP 3Dx test for Lyme's and Erlichia canis should be considered accurate :confused: ). All of our dogs have been vaccinated, but only the dog with the chronic Lyme's has ever had a positive snap test result. This was the test that first indicated Lil Belle had Lyme's--we adopted her when she was 2--and the vet started treatment right away while he sent out blood for the C6 test. This test confirmed Lyme's. I believe the C6 test is rather new...?

OntarioGreys
November 26th, 2006, 06:21 AM
All of our dogs have been vaccinated, but only the dog with the chronic Lyme's has ever had a positive snap test result. This was the test that first indicated Lil Belle had Lyme's--we adopted her when she was 2--and the vet started treatment right away while he sent out blood for the C6 test. This test confirmed Lyme's. I believe the C6 test is rather new...?

C6 is likely just a different name for the Western Blot which is what is used to confirm when a snap shows positive

Racing greyhounds in the US are at high risk because of the way they are housed, A track may have 10 to 12 seperate racing kennel each racing kennel can have from 50 to 100 dogs in it , so ticks are common due to the large number of hosts in a small area plus dog may be carrying in ticks from other areas of the US since they are bred and raised elsewhere and when they come of age are then shipped to the track depending on their performance they may stay where they are and race their entire career where they are or if poor performing may be shipped to a lower ranking track or if eceptional may be sent to a highgrade track, or an owner may not be happy with the kennel they hired and may decide to hire a different kennel to race their dogs in another state, so there is often movement of dogs from from one track to another which can help spread the diseases.


We got several of our greyhounds from the Diaryland track in Wisconsin and Dubuque IA as well as northeast coast and Florida, the greys from the west had the least problems with tick disease actually any occurance of tick disease was very rare, so they were always a joy to recieve since the tick disease costs would be low. Florida greys were also okay some incidences of Erlichia but not to bad, but the ones we got from the track in CT and New Hampshire we always sat on pins and needles for the results, pretty close to 90% had exposure to tick disease many have multiple co-infections most have Babesia which is one of the worst for treating successfully, next worse problem was Erlichia, Lyme is an easy treatment and the effects from Lyme is nowhere bad as the other 2 tick diseases mentioned. There is a strain of babesia that has no successful means to treat and it has only few years that the University of North Carolina made the distinction that there were to strains, one of the reasons I had Maya bloodwork sent there after she tested positive in the IFA testing, as I wanted to know if it was an active infection and if so was it a strain that could be treated.

This is US disease maps of Lyme and Erlichia unfortunately I cannot find one for Babesia but it would be heavy in the southwest especially in texas, arizona and new mexico with heavy pockets as well in the north east states starting roughly above NC and northward and the reason I recommend a tick panel for Cider rather than just testing for Lyme
http://www.dogsandticks.com/maps/index.html

technodoll
November 27th, 2006, 02:46 PM
just now found this thread... how is cider today? i mean is she still lethargic, is she running a fever? is she drinking and eating normally, how are her biological functions (pee, poop...)? worried about the little sweetie :o :grouphug:

mafiaprincess
November 27th, 2006, 03:01 PM
just now found this thread... how is cider today? i mean is she still lethargic, is she running a fever? is she drinking and eating normally, how are her biological functions (pee, poop...)? worried about the little sweetie :o :grouphug:

It's the first time ever she's been more than a little off for a day or two..
She's still lethargic, but if you have a purpose for her she does it and crashes.. like go play fetch come home, doesn't move for hours, but was happy to be doing it.. They told me her temp was at the high end of the normal range, but that isn't 'normal' for her usually. She's drinking, hit and miss on eating though. Only started yesterday paying attention to what I'm eating and begging for it some. Ate her kibble with no prompt right now though.. Poops good, pees normally. Sneezing her head off and on. Doing this like can't get enough air hyperventilating thing for like 10 breaths now and then.. Clear eye goopies, clear nose run..

They think with all the other symptoms she's having it's likely not Lyme, but something viral she caught being in a new environment and she was more susceptible.. But got an antibiotic in case secondary bacterial stuff crops up. I was happy that I went in fairly informed on random stuff though.. Hopefully her blood work comes back fairly normal..

jessi76
November 27th, 2006, 03:05 PM
I don't have alot of technical info, but real-life experience. I pull ticks, 99% are deer ticks, off my dog DAILY. deer ticks are small & usually pretty flat, which makes them hard to spot, and harder to yank off. THIS is the reason we got Tucker (short hair dog!) because deer ticks are everywhere in my area. I can actually spot a tick on Tucker from across the room w/ his short hair & light coloring.

I get my dog the Lyme vac, because I'd rather be safe than sorry. I keep him on frontline year round. I check every square inch of him when he comes in from the yard. I simply pluck them off and flush them. I don't save them for the vet. good grief, if I did that I'd have to bring them in by the sackfull.

btw, there is also a vaccine for people too. I believe it's a series of 3 painfull shots. I never bothered w/ it, but I've plucked them off my own socks, shoes and pantlegs many times.

hazelrunpack
November 27th, 2006, 04:35 PM
Sorry to hear that cider is still ailing, MP. It does sound different than Lyme's (although Dog knows we've had plenty of atypical symptoms when our dogs have had Lyme's). I hope her tests all come out okay!

Meanwhile, for anyone still interested in the Lyme testing (and this might include Springermom0406), the C6 test is not the same as the Western Blot test. It is newer and tests for a different antibody than is stimulated by the vaccine--so it can distinguish between vaccine antibodies and exposure antibodies. So as not to thread-jack too badly, I'll just include the link to the Idexx site, which is the producer of the C6 test. It has a lot of good info out there:

http://www.idexx.com/animalhealth/laboratory/c6/index.jsp

Meanwhile, I hope Cider is back to normal quickly, MP! :fingerscr When can you expect results back from the blood work?

hazelrunpack
November 27th, 2006, 04:37 PM
btw, there is also a vaccine for people too. I believe it's a series of 3 painfull shots. I never bothered w/ it, but I've plucked them off my own socks, shoes and pantlegs many times.

Aren't deer ticks lovely? :yuck:

Anyway, just a follow-up--I believe the Human Vaccine for Lyme's was pulled from the market just a year or two after it became available. There wasn't enough demand for it... :shrug: